How do you get through to racists who have utterly dejected the term "racist"?

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SeanSeanston

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thaluikhain said:
While that is true, there's a big difference between Men's Rights and men's rights. You have any number of people working to support the rights of men, and that is of course a noble endeavor, but the Men's Rights movement is simply a backlash against women having more rights than they used to.
Perhaps... perhaps... and there are many subtleties involved in these matters... especially when it comes to phraseology.

Still, it's hard not to get the feeling that whenever a man (or even a woman) suggests that perhaps man aren't treated fairly, they are assumed to be 1 step behind demanding women lose the vote.

And we all know what happened to Erin Pizzey's dog :D... oh wait, we don't because nobody ever hears about that ^_^.

thaluikhain said:
Assuming that the group that has been in power all that time has suddenly stopped being in power and all problems caused during that time have been resolved, yes.
It's hardly constructive to rope in people born long after such things though, as an example. It's all very nice but some people are still living with their heads in the 70s, meanwhile people who weren't even born in the 70s have to deal with backward assumptions for reasons that don't appear to exist.
Like how young men appear to be put in the same category as young men who grew up many decades ago, as those it's some kind of Lamarckism and the old way of doing things was so very very unambiguously good for men and so all men must secretly wish for a return to such times if only they could make it happen.

And who is to decide when all of these problems have been completely resolved? And what is really a problem and not a result of something innocuous? It's all very slippery.
 

Wargamer

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thaluikhain said:
Assuming that the group that has been in power all that time has suddenly stopped being in power and all problems caused during that time have been resolved, yes.
I call bullshit on this mind-numbing stupidity.

The OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of White Men in history have, collectively, had fuck-all power.

Why the hell do all White Men have to answer for the ruling elite? It's the bloody nazi thing all over again. Hitler and a dozen of his drinking buddies masterminded a way to build themselves an Empire. They are Bad People, and should be remembered as such. Most members of the nazi party, on the other hand, joined because you pretty much had to be a nazi to get anywhere in Germany at the time... and later on, to ensure you didn't mysteriously disappear.

Not all nazis have to apologise for what they did in the war. They just don't. Most of them were just following orders, or just doing what they felt they had to to survive, or had been suckered in by clever propaganda and believed that they really were doing the right thing. The majority were, in fact, normal people, and a great deal of stories from veterans will support this notion.

It is not the duty of the 'White Race' to collectively kiss everyone else's arse and somehow make everything better. It is our duty as Human beings to learn from everyone's mistakes, and see that they are not repeated.
 

SeanSeanston

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Wargamer said:
thaluikhain said:
Assuming that the group that has been in power all that time has suddenly stopped being in power and all problems caused during that time have been resolved, yes.
I call bullshit on this mind-numbing stupidity.

The OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of White Men in history have, collectively, had fuck-all power.
This too. I was going to mention it in some capacity.

It's no good that the very few people in power happen to share some characteristics with you, if you're dying of black lung working in a coal mine.

You're not ****ing privileged then. It's not like a group where everything is shared around equally. If a man makes money, I don't benefit somehow because I'm a man.
 

Dr. Doomsduck

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CorvusFerreum said:

Okay, first things first: we need to get their terminology right.

Beeing looked at funny, because you say you don't want any more blacks in your country is not genocide.

This is genocide

Second of all: The Nazis didn't want to kill 6 million jews, they wanted to kill all jews. They just got to six million before they were stopped.

Perhaps it is because I'm german, but using words like genocide in such a trivial context just makes me incredibly sad and angry. Maybe those idiots should visit places where such events occured to get some perspective. Sadly there are enough of those throughout the world.
Yeah, it made me uncomfortable as fuck (Dutch, as I've mentioned before). That's really the part where you can see how little regard they have for human suffering other than their own.

In what part of their brain is "Oh shit, someone married a black dude" the same as the systematic MURDER of millions. They are so afraid of being called a 'Nazi' but they've lost complete sight of what a 'Nazi' really is.
 

Piecewise

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Eh.

When people talk about minorities not assimilating and out numbering "natural" citizens I like to post this quote from Ben Franklin.

"Those who come hither are generally of the most ignorant Stupid Sort of their own Nation?and as few of the English understand the German Language, and so cannot address them either from the Press or Pulpit, ?tis almost impossible to remove any prejudices they once entertain?Not being used to Liberty, they know not how to make a modest use of it?I remember when they modestly declined intermeddling in our Elections, but now they come in droves, and carry all before them, except in one or two Counties...In short unless the stream of their importation could be turned from this to other colonies, as you very judiciously propose, they will soon so out number us, that all the advantages we have will not in My Opinion be able to preserve our language, and even our Government will become precarious"


These thoughts and fears are by no means new, and, so far, by no means correct.

Now this isn't to say that the supposed "reverse racism" doesn't exist but most of the time it's not an organized thing, its the accidental result of attempts to make sure that racism doesn't happen. It's things like "minority quotas" in companies or preferential treatment of minorities when applying for grants or scholarships. It's not an intentional thing most of the time, it's just a result of many different policies coming together in an inopportune way, attempts to prevent one type of preferential hiring resulting in a different type of Preferential hiring for instance.

But as things go, these are very minor problems compared to what many minorities face.
 

Thaluikhain

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SeanSeanston said:
It's hardly constructive to rope in people born long after such things though, as an example. It's all very nice but some people are still living with their heads in the 70s, meanwhile people who weren't even born in the 70s have to deal with backward assumptions for reasons that don't appear to exist.
Like how young men appear to be put in the same category as young men who grew up many decades ago, as those it's some kind of Lamarckism and the old way of doing things was so very very unambiguously good for men and so all men must secretly wish for a return to such times if only they could make it happen.

And who is to decide when all of these problems have been completely resolved? And what is really a problem and not a result of something innocuous? It's all very slippery.
That's certainly true, though I mostly see it used as a strawman "X terrible thing was ages ago, so there can't be any problems nowdays".

Wargamer said:
I call bullshit on this mind-numbing stupidity.

The OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of White Men in history have, collectively, had fuck-all power.

Why the hell do all White Men have to answer for the ruling elite?
They don't. But white men who weren't members of the ruling elite had and still have, advantages over people who aren't white men or members of the ruling elite.

White men, even with many legitimate grievances, are still in a position of power over people in the same circumstance who aren't white men.

Wargamer said:
It's the bloody nazi thing all over again. Hitler and a dozen of his drinking buddies masterminded a way to build themselves an Empire. They are Bad People, and should be remembered as such. Most members of the nazi party, on the other hand, joined because you pretty much had to be a nazi to get anywhere in Germany at the time... and later on, to ensure you didn't mysteriously disappear.

Not all nazis have to apologise for what they did in the war. They just don't. Most of them were just following orders, or just doing what they felt they had to to survive, or had been suckered in by clever propaganda and believed that they really were doing the right thing. The majority were, in fact, normal people, and a great deal of stories from veterans will support this notion.
That is, to borrow your phrase, "mind-numbing bullshit".

13 people do not take control of a country that doesn't want them there. Hitler rose to power on a wave of horrific bigotry, of anti-semitism and homophobia. That simply doesn't happen unless the society at large has massive problems.

Now, it's true to say that many Germans (not Nazis, ordinary German civilians and soldiers) were on the whole innocent of most of the crimes of the Third Reich. But masses of them supported Hitler, at least to an extent.


Wargamer said:
It is not the duty of the 'White Race' to collectively kiss everyone else's arse and somehow make everything better.
Tis fortunate then that nobody is saying they should, outside of strawmen.

Wargamer said:
It is all one way. Consider the following: it is acceptable for black men to make racial slurs against white men, but not the other way around. That is racism; it's racist against whites. It states that blacks have more rights than whites.
Oh noes! You're not supposed to use the N-word. Gosh, you really are oppressed aren't you?

Wargamer said:
The way you solve it, in fact, is to shut the fuck up. You stop using words like "hate crime", and stop defining people by their skin colour. A black man getting shot by a white guy is not a "hate crime", it's murder. An asian who gets robbed at knife-point is not the victim of a "hate crime", they're victims of a mugging.
Right, just stop bothering us about the problem, and it'll magically go away on its own. Yeah, that's been tried, and guess what? It doesn't fucking work. What a surprise.
 
Sep 24, 2008
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Wargamer said:
Guys, here's the problem: they are right.

It is all one way. Consider the following: it is acceptable for black men to make racial slurs against white men, but not the other way around. That is racism; it's racist against whites. It states that blacks have more rights than whites.

The way to solve racism is not to go in ham-fisted and demand that white people "accept" black people, or asians, or whatever little group you fight for. That is what makes white people walk over to the nazi booth and read their pamphlets on ethnic cleansing.

The way you solve it, in fact, is to shut the fuck up. You stop using words like "hate crime", and stop defining people by their skin colour. A black man getting shot by a white guy is not a "hate crime", it's murder. An asian who gets robbed at knife-point is not the victim of a "hate crime", they're victims of a mugging.

Until the 'pro-minority' people learn that, all they're doing is digging a hole that they'll never climb out of.
Here's something I was thinking about since you've said the first part: When was the last time I've even heard someone use a racial slur that's directed solely to white people. That was hard, because I had to even remember one to begin with. The only one I came up with was 'Honky'. And the last time I've heard that was in 70's action flicks.

More over, The Black slurs are not just names. Someone didn't sit in a backroom and say 'Hey, you know what it would be funny to call them?'. These were terms separating humans from blacks. The N-word is telling me that I'm an less than animal that happened to learn speech. Because that was its direct definition. What does the word Honky mean to you? To anyone? I would hazard 'less than nothing' because no one was subjected to subhuman treatment that was recognized world wide.

And furthermore, why do people cling to this slur debate? I don't see the uproar about calling a woman the B-word. It's known if you do, she will probably try to cut you. It's not done. It's considered rude and low-brow. That's the end of it. Almost everyone can see that. Even if women might call themselves that from time to time. Why, oh why is that accepted as common knowledge but we still struggle over people wanting to use the N-word (not saying you do, Wargamer, but we've had that very thread on the forum several times)

Although, I did notice something that confused me. You've said something I agree with myself, the more you separate yourself in terms of 'being equal', the more you just define the differences between us. I thought 'educating' people as a Black Militant back in the 90's would be the best way of letting people know that there is no need for this separation. Turns out I just turned people off. So I just dealt with people on a case by case basis. Turns out people are more apt to listen to you when you're treating them like them, not another clueless member of the mass.

However, you said that we need stop looking at skin color, and stop trying to specially define acts between races. Again, Kudos. A hundred percent with you there. But at the end, you say the term 'pro-minority'. That's a term that promotes difference. Whites and Minorities. Back in the day, if I read that... eh, it wouldn't have been pretty.
 

Knight Captain Kerr

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Can white people suffer from racism? Yes.

Are these people just bigots who are trying to make themselves out to be the victims? Yes.
 

Thaluikhain

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SeanSeanston said:
It's no good that the very few people in power happen to share some characteristics with you, if you're dying of black lung working in a coal mine.

You're not ****ing privileged then.
You have privilege over the Asian guy dying from black lung next to you, who has your problems and racism as well.

Privilege is not simply a matter of class or wealth, it's not something that automatically makes your life great. It's something inherent to you which gives you an advantage over someone that doesn't have it.
 

SonOfVoorhees

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Now i know that white people have less freedom of speech than others. Say an asian can preach hate and death to white people, but the minute a white person protests....prison. This happened in the UK, asians carrying signs saying death to British people. Protesting at our troops coming home. Its pathetic. Its unfair. The law should account for everyone. How can an asian person burning poppies be given a simple fine but we burn a Koran, its threatened with prison. Incase your not aware, the poppy is a sign of British troops that dies in WW2. Now both sides can protest all you want, i just want the consequence to be equal.
 

AnarchistFish

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Yeah this video is dumb

Although there definitely is positive discrimination which disadvantages white people and the whole idea has bled into the psyche of society. And there are places around the world where white people are discriminated and Christians persecuted/killed

So it's not like the premise is complete bullshit. The whole problem with society is that even in trying to improve equality it still distinguishes between races. We'll only reach equilibrium where that literally makes no difference anymore
 

Therumancer

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Andy of Comix Inc said:
So. I stumbled across this video. It's a video for WHITE RIGHTS! Fighting for WHITE FREEDOMS! To stop "White Ge-NO-cide!" What a cute pun.


Watching it, I got sad, and then amused, and then sad again, and concerned, and after five minutes of it all I could feel was worried. These people have, in all sincerity, taken up the mantle of believing that anti-racism is actually anti-white. Like, they have convinced THEMSELVES of that. Also note that they've convinced themselves that apparently keeping whites out of black and Asian churches, communities, and countries is a thing. (I'm sure they can go wherever in the world they want to. They just don't want to. What with all the starvation and violent dictatorships 'n all.)

"They tell us, 'Africa is for the Africans! Asia is for the Asians! But white countries are for everyone!'"

So how... how do you talk to people like this? I'm convinced it's a kind of insanity - they have made up (or just poorly interpreted or inferred meaning from) arguments, argue against those arguments, and in doing so completely and utterly cement mistruths in themselves. How do you fight such things? You could ignore it, but others won't. How do you get through to someone who has built up such impeccable defense regarding people changing their minds?
Well, she's right about a lot of it, it's just not very popular with the left wing, and her delivery and explanation leaves a bit to be desired.

Without addressing this video and to put the "movement" into a bit more perspective consider a number of things ranging from Muslim Prayer rooms/Temples where non-Muslims are not allowed to go, and with some sects believing only "Allah's Chosen People" (ie Arabs) can truely join their religion. This kind of thing gets taken to an extreme when you start looking at Black Muslims, who practice a version of Islam involving a guy called "Yakub" (look it up on Wikipedia) who was basically an ancient scientist-sorceror who played with magnets and genetics, he invented white people as a sort of weapon to oppress the "true black man". This religion includes a prophecy about the return of the black man to power with time, and that they are pretty much entitled to wipe us all out as a form of satanic evil. This religion was also the basis for Charles Manson's "Helter Skelter" which was to be the epic battle between whites and blacks which blacks would win, but whites would eventually return from if we did the right things and of course we can kind of guess where Charlie went from there given his legendary exploits. This is all true and verifiable (to an extent), and you'll find that the Black Muslim population is expanding with things like "Nation Of Thisslam" growing to be paticularly powerful.

Likewise, in a forum like this it's fairly common knowlege of Japanese attitudes about white people or "Gaijin" and racial superiority, as well as the attitudes of a lot of mainland Chinese. In the US we also see increasing numbers of ethnic neighborhoods which can be pretty unfriendly to whites, Chinatown districs, Little Seoul, Little Havana, etc.. all require special care with policing and oftentimes feature advisories to people wanting to go there about the potential dangers, especially after night. Places like New York's Chinatown district in paticular have featured so heavily in action movies and such because they can be incredibly dangerous to outsiders (though this is not always the case). These kinds of ethnic divides and "closed cultures" even within the US is how organized crime also helps to protect and transport human labour, run domestic sweatshops, drugs, and similar things.

There have also been real estate issues once in a while where you've had cases where minorities, especially in those ethnic areas, have not been willing to sell property to whites. In a Jewish, Chinese, etc.. area there is a desire to keep these regions what they are so if a property is up for sale they will only sell to someone of the same ethnicity. Once in a while you hear something about it when development in say Chinatown gets stymied, or whatever. This has lead to complaints about the laws being biased after all if you wanted to keep a neighborhood white and refused to sell or rent to a black family there would be all kinds of crap about it. If some guy in Chinatown doesn't want to sell you a building or rent you a storefront because your white it's treated as a differant kind of matter.

There is also the simple issue that whites are rapidly becoming a minority in the USA, "whites" are a minority globally, outnumbered by almost all other ethnicities (Chinese alone are 1/3rd of the human population, India has another third) open borders and liberal citizenship policies means we've allowed tons of non-whites into the country, and then you consider the family expectations of other largely non-white cultures where you have blacks, hispanics, chinese, etc... having 5 or 6 kids once they get here the numbers in the US population are changing. The white majority is not as large as it has been, and within a decade or so it's forecasted that whites will not be the most numerous ethnicity in the USA, Hispanics will. You already see trends arriving where the sheer numbers have lead to many jobs requiring people to speak spanish for that reason.

Now, all of this aside, the person doing this video is something of an alarmist, but at it's core is a lot of reality. Like it or not whites ARE becoming a minority within the USA, and it's something that will happen unless we pretty much threw every tenet of our society out to define the US as a white country as opposed to one of equality. This was destinied to happen simply by the global numbers and the way we've taken immigrants, people saw it coming for decades. The current laws and social/societal trends that exist are however created from the perspective of an overwhelming white majority that does not exist, and will be gone before too long, and need to be changed as a result. What's more as time goes on, you are going to need to see whites receiving the same kinds of protections as many minorities receive now. Human nature is what it is, whites aren't unusually evil or bigoted or anything, any kind of ethnicity gets that way under similar circulstances, and to be honest blacks and hispanics aren't going to be any better about it than whites, and probably worse, as you see things like that Black Muslim movement I mentioned picking up with the numbers and social inertia.

Do we need to be concerned with white rights? Well yes, just like any minority does since we're on our way. Our own policies when we tried to fight the negative trends when we were the majority shows that. It's better to plan ahead now and make preparations then try and fight an uphill battle from outside. We have the benefit for foresight unlike many similar situations in the world before now. Is there any kind of attempt to genocidally wipe out white people? No, but there ARE movements that would like to do that, just as there were white groups that had the same basic attitudes in reverse. Action needs to simply be taken to go after groups like Black Muslims, and curtail their power. People tend not to see that problem because we've become so entrenched in the idea of a white majority, and looking towards groups like the KKK, where we've kind of been overlooking the potential in groups like that when they become less of a fringe, as well as the idealogy involved in certain gangs like the "Latin Kings" that have a nation-wide prescence and international reach.

I don't expect anyone to agree with me, and lots of people to scream and yell about this, so I'm not going to try and argue the point at the moment. Eventually the time will come where I think most people will run into more and more things that will cause what I'm saying here to "click" since half the problem right now is awareness. I do however suggest you look up Yakub on Wikipedia (which is accurate in a basic sense, there is more to it) and do some general searches afterwards, including organizations based around this "Black Muslim" faith, and their numbers. While it's harder to find, reading some gang propaganda can also grant perspective, especially when you realize that a lot of gangs nowadays aren't just a few dozen people with matching jackets and switchblades, they can involve hundreds of thousands of people, international connections for drug smuggling and human trafficking, and nationwide distribution, being more akin to old school organized crime than what we popular think of as simply a "gang". Society changes and just like the older crime syndicates I think some of these groups will come into even further power behind the scenes along with the demographics.

Thinking ahead always seems paranoid to those who want to ground themselves entirely in the here and now. One of my problems with liberals has generally been a lack of looking towards the big picture and what being nice now, can mean 10, 20, 30 years down the road for everyone on both sides of an action. Not an insult, but a further explanation of
some of my general posting trends for those who have noticed. It's good to have your heart in the right place, but sometimes you need to temper it with cold blooded reason and realpolitick, the US is on it's way to changing
radically over the next decade or two.
 

Happiness Assassin

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Last time I checked, in America white people were still the majority, held a disproportionate amount to the wealth, and on average much less likely to end up in jail for drug-related charges, despite the rates of drug related crimes between whites and blacks being almost the same. White people still take most of the benefits in our society, though in much more subtle ways than these fuckwads could really comprehend.
 

Commissar Sae

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I loved the history lesson that they barely studied on. Yes, no one ever denounces the Turks for their history...

I also laughed my ass off when they said "The final solution" when talking about the "black problem." And then they bring up genocide and say they aren't Nazis? Seriously, do some research before you write something like that down.

I also really want to know who this "everybody" guy is and why he thinks we should depopulate the third world by immigrating them to the first? Tat sounds like a really silly and poorly thought out idea.
 

AnarchistFish

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thaluikhain said:
Oh noes! You're not supposed to use the N-word. Gosh, you really are oppressed aren't you?
ObsidianJones said:
When was the last time I've even heard someone use a racial slur that's directed solely to white people. That was hard, because I had to even remember one to begin with. The only one I came up with was 'Honky'. And the last time I've heard that was in 70's action flicks.

More over, The Black slurs are not just names. Someone didn't sit in a backroom and say 'Hey, you know what it would be funny to call them?'. These were terms separating humans from blacks. The N-word is telling me that I'm an less than animal that happened to learn speech. Because that was its direct definition. What does the word Honky mean to you? To anyone? I would hazard 'less than nothing' because no one was subjected to subhuman treatment that was recognized world wide.
When did he specify "******"?

Wargamer said:
Consider the following: it is acceptable for black men to make racial slurs against white men, but not the other way around.
This actually reminds me of an incident involving my brother. This was back in primary school, so he would've been about 8. There was a black guy (a few years older) who kept calling him "white trash". So my brother replied and called him "chocolate". Brother got in trouble, afaik the other guy didn't. Neither are actually racist, but one was interpreted as such
 

bastardofmelbourne

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When we see a crazy hobo shouting racist slurs from inside their garbage can, sandwich board, or trailer home, we usually walk past them and pay no attention, because they're crazy hobos. But wash that hobo and put it on Youtube and suddenly we're all talking about it like we've never seen a crazy racist before.

The Internet has given everyone a voice. We don't have to listen.

Now for the mindless internet debating! This is my favourite part.

thaluikhain said:
You have privilege over the Asian guy dying from black lung next to you, who has your problems and racism as well.
Racism is a fairly minor problem compared to working in a 19th century British coal mine, and to be honest, an Irish coal miner wouldn't get a better hand dealt to him than an Asian coal miner would have. It's nonsensical to talk about privilege in those circumstances. It's like talking about how the white guy is more privileged than the black guy when both of them are being eaten alive by space worms.

ObsidianJones said:
Here's something I was thinking about since you've said the first part: When was the last time I've even heard someone use a racial slur that's directed solely to white people. That was hard, because I had to even remember one to begin with. The only one I came up with was 'Honky'. And the last time I've heard that was in 70's action flicks.
I don't actually disagree with you, but we had a funny case here with the Racial Discrimination Act concerning racial vilification (hate speech for you Yanks). The first case brought under the Act was actually a white girl suing an Aboriginal woman for calling her white trash. It got thrown out literally because the judge said it was ridiculous that a white person was using the RDA to sue a black person.

I agree with the judge in that circumstance, but on a matter of principle, there's no reason why a black person should be immune to racial vilification provisions. It's just that, as you say, there are a shitload more racial slurs for black people than white people, and they're much more emotionally charged and derogatory, so the law has more of an interest in protecting the victims of it. I mean, I can't imagine anyone being hurt by "white trash" as much as a black person being called a ******.

canadamus_prime said:
White people have never been discriminated against so there's no need to actively discourage the behaviour.
There were these guys...the Jews, I think? They were all black though, yeah? Or Arabic or something. Must've been.

RhombusHatesYou said:
We tried to have one of them in Australia... what it got us was 50+ years of cultural stagnation and bland as fuck food.
Five decades without curries

or kebabs

the worst

BloatedGuppy said:
Why aren't more of you talking about the OP's misuse of the word "dejected" in the thread title?

Seriously guys it's really bugging me. I can't even pay attention to these racists.
I know, right?
 

JudgeGame

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This is no insanity. It is merely the ultimate form of ignorance. Had they ever travelled to other countries, they might have realized the garbage they are talking. These kinds of views are only possible if you stay within a tiny community your entire life.

Leaving the serious stuff aside. Lol. What do these people think Mexicans are? Like, have they never seen a white-skinned Mexican *cough* romney? Nobody is angry at the Turks? China is not known for violence?

Utter ignorance.
 

Twilight_guy

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How do you respond? You point out how stupid their argument is and they ignore you. usually someone like this is emotionally attached to the argument and won't give it up. If you consider yourself a logical person you will respond with a logical argument, which will be ignored, but not responding would be worse because this clearly needs to be address as bullshit.
 

SeanSeanston

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thaluikhain said:
They don't. But white men who weren't members of the ruling elite had and still have, advantages over people who aren't white men or members of the ruling elite.
It all depends though. At the end of the day, we're all individuals and we may progress or get ****ed over because we happened to be the wrong race/gender/sexuality/height/age/whatever in the wrong place at the wrong time.

White men have advantages over people who aren't. People who aren't white men also have advantages over people who are. Depends on circumstances. It's not an entirely one-way street.

e.g. Woman's right to choose versus the non-existent and never discussed issue of men who don't want to be fathers. Which in itself, isn't even a one-way street because it enforces stereotypes against both genders.

thaluikhain said:
Oh noes! You're not supposed to use the N-word. Gosh, you really are oppressed aren't you
I think his entire point was that it was wrong that other people weren't being equally derided for being insulting, not that he should be as free to insult people as they might be.