I was skimming the first page of this thread and loved this post. I like how he complains that one guy has grouped his idiot friend with all religious people by grouping one gramatically-challenged poster with all of the Escapist.Toriver said:
How do you reason with religious people?
- Thread starter YukoValis
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Some of us religious folks see scientific pursuit of knowledge as a way to better understand how God works, and thus we fully embrace questioning and experimentation. The universe is infinite and expanding, so who are we to say something does or doesn't exist based on our own infinitesimally small experience and observations? I just try to stay open to whatever possibilities the universe presents me.Wapox said:
I generally respect other's religions.
I respect their choice to live devoutly by their faith.
This refers only to those who aren't brainwashed idiots, however.
I've yet to meet one of those in the UK.
I respect their choice to live devoutly by their faith.
This refers only to those who aren't brainwashed idiots, however.
I've yet to meet one of those in the UK.
You don't really reason with religious people. Religion is based on faith, which goes against logic.
Don't get me wrong, this isn't to say that everyone who follows a religion is totally batshit insane. But the point is to believe in something greater than you -- not necessarily by deducing facts, but by having faith that it's there.
Don't get me wrong, this isn't to say that everyone who follows a religion is totally batshit insane. But the point is to believe in something greater than you -- not necessarily by deducing facts, but by having faith that it's there.
Your question is in itself inflammatory, as your "friend's" issue isn't that he is religious, but that he is a huge douche. His religion merely gave a point of disagreement for him to blow out of proportion like any of the millions of spoiled children in adult bodies we have these days.YukoValis said:
My advice is to let the subject go, give him some time to cool down and then get back into contact while trying your damnedest to not mention your argument at all.
Simply I just don't talk about religious subjects with them.
And in all honesty, I have never had an edgy religious encounter with any of my friends. Like, not even close. People tend to extremely over exaggerate encounters with religious people.
And if you do have a friend who doesn't see what is wrong with WBC, then quite simply
And in all honesty, I have never had an edgy religious encounter with any of my friends. Like, not even close. People tend to extremely over exaggerate encounters with religious people.
And if you do have a friend who doesn't see what is wrong with WBC, then quite simply
Woodsey said:
You sir, ninja'd every single word I was about to say. This is very well said and can be used to reason with any racional cristian in a debate.El Poncho said:Everyone I know who is religous accepts the views of others so I've never had to reason with any.
However I like to have this quote in my mind most of the time, doubt it would work but I like it
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God."
- Epicurus, 33 A.D
I don't have those many religious debates since whenever people have them, the religious ones are always changing topics and not letting the science ones explain themselves...
I have a degree in Religions, so I am actually certified to tell you that over 80% of the world defines as religious in some way. People of faith are as varied as atheists. As an atheist, I understand the awkwardness of interfaith debate from this side of the fence, but the most important things to remember when speaking with someone you disagree with on a fundamental world view are: One religious person is not like another (i.e. don't generalize from one encounter), and that sometimes you and the other person will never be able to see eye to eye on some subjects. When someone seems to be spouting nonsense, trying to yell louder is not the answer, because you probably sound as senseless to them as they do to you. I doubt the world population will ever really agree on some ideas, but I think the important thing is to work with what we *do* agree on.
Simple, I ask you say there is a God correct? If they reply no, then your argument is finished. If they say yes, I ask prove to me that your God exists since you are the one saying he does. Show me something concrete that God has done, if you can't show me this then you have no God to prove to me.
1. By definition, you can't reason with religious people. I'm not saying this to sound like a jerk, but religious belief is illogical and unreasonable. I have my own beliefs, and I'm willing to admit that they're beyond logic.
2. Your friend might be the only Christian outside of the WBC who still sees them as Christians, too.
2. Your friend might be the only Christian outside of the WBC who still sees them as Christians, too.
As it's been said, his religious beliefs have nothing to do with being an idiot and taking the side of the WBC.
As for reasoning with idiots, you really can't.
As for reasoning with idiots, you really can't.
I'm religious, Catholic-Christian, in fact.
Your friend is just ignorant, blame his upbringing.
Show him the website godhatesfags.com, and see what he says.
If he still abuses you, he is really not a good friend.
Your friend is just ignorant, blame his upbringing.
Show him the website godhatesfags.com, and see what he says.
If he still abuses you, he is really not a good friend.
Umm, ok I'm considered the 'religous' one out of my friends, and even I find it appaling what the WBC is doing. So yeah, that just means that your friend if very likely an idiot. Oh, and btw I support Anonymous all the way- protect our speech! Oh, and if you aren't to busy, can you try to do something about this BS about how some people think video games need to be regulated by the government? I think that would be right up your alley.
You don't reason with religious people.
By definition Faith can not be reasoned with. If you have faith, no one should be able to talk you out of it.
Now you CAN agree to disagree or ignore each other with someone who is religious. This suits most people just fine. But than you have Fanatics and Extremists. These are the people protesting Family Planning clinics, Refusing to fill prescriptions for 'morally questionable patients', trying to 'Cure' gays, going out into the woods and starting 'patriotic militias' who's purpose is to cleanse the country of Jews, Blacks, Mexicans, Gays, Natives, etc... These people will not allow you to ignore them. they will not ignore you if you are different. THESE are the people that there is no real reasoning with and they can be very dangerous. These people take religion and Twist it to suit there own needs. These are the people who justify the murder of an abortion doctor as 'Gods Will'.
as for politics 2 things;
1) You should be disqualified from running for public office if you hold the title Reverend, Father, Sheik, Rabi, etc... That automatically creates a conflict of interest for any government which seeks to separate church and state.
2) You should not elect anyone who places "God" before The People of his/her country. (Same reason as above)
As for the Islam Extremest VS Christian Extremest.
Islam's **most** extreme are highly publicized and criticized. They operate 'terror' groups. They cause fear. They repel people of first and second world society with there extreme measures.
Christianity's most extreme keep there heads down. They operate within political systems. They use money not to buy weapons, but to influence politicians and law makers. They find small groups to deamonize rather than large groups. This allows them to recruit larger portions of population. They too murder, but western society is geared to ignore this as a problem. Of course one or two people get arrested for the lynching of a gay man, or the murder of an abortion doctor, but the institution remains safe. This is terrorism as well. Rather than blowing up a buss full of people, and sending the message "this can happen at any time to anyone". They are assassinations. They send the message. "If you are like them, we will find you! YOU are our target. We are cold, calculated, precise, and untouchable."
Please do not mistake this as a conspiracy theory. We all know exactly who lets this happen. YOU! Yes you. and by you i mean Me too. All of us. If we want to stop religious extremism we CAN NOT focus on Islam, or Hindu, but Christianity, and the religions that are close to home!
I think this is the longest post I've done... See what you did? DO YOU SEE WHAT YOU DID ESCAPIST?!?!
By definition Faith can not be reasoned with. If you have faith, no one should be able to talk you out of it.
Now you CAN agree to disagree or ignore each other with someone who is religious. This suits most people just fine. But than you have Fanatics and Extremists. These are the people protesting Family Planning clinics, Refusing to fill prescriptions for 'morally questionable patients', trying to 'Cure' gays, going out into the woods and starting 'patriotic militias' who's purpose is to cleanse the country of Jews, Blacks, Mexicans, Gays, Natives, etc... These people will not allow you to ignore them. they will not ignore you if you are different. THESE are the people that there is no real reasoning with and they can be very dangerous. These people take religion and Twist it to suit there own needs. These are the people who justify the murder of an abortion doctor as 'Gods Will'.
as for politics 2 things;
1) You should be disqualified from running for public office if you hold the title Reverend, Father, Sheik, Rabi, etc... That automatically creates a conflict of interest for any government which seeks to separate church and state.
2) You should not elect anyone who places "God" before The People of his/her country. (Same reason as above)
As for the Islam Extremest VS Christian Extremest.
Islam's **most** extreme are highly publicized and criticized. They operate 'terror' groups. They cause fear. They repel people of first and second world society with there extreme measures.
Christianity's most extreme keep there heads down. They operate within political systems. They use money not to buy weapons, but to influence politicians and law makers. They find small groups to deamonize rather than large groups. This allows them to recruit larger portions of population. They too murder, but western society is geared to ignore this as a problem. Of course one or two people get arrested for the lynching of a gay man, or the murder of an abortion doctor, but the institution remains safe. This is terrorism as well. Rather than blowing up a buss full of people, and sending the message "this can happen at any time to anyone". They are assassinations. They send the message. "If you are like them, we will find you! YOU are our target. We are cold, calculated, precise, and untouchable."
Please do not mistake this as a conspiracy theory. We all know exactly who lets this happen. YOU! Yes you. and by you i mean Me too. All of us. If we want to stop religious extremism we CAN NOT focus on Islam, or Hindu, but Christianity, and the religions that are close to home!
I think this is the longest post I've done... See what you did? DO YOU SEE WHAT YOU DID ESCAPIST?!?!
To preface: I am not religious, but I do believe in at least one deity. I am also a rationalist.
Religion is, by definition, irrational. It's looking at the world and saying, "There must exist an unobservable, untestable phenomenon beyond what can be absolutely proven." While there is plenty of objectionable dogma in the Bible, it offers an excellent definition of faith: "Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." You can show me your dog, but if I have unshakable faith that it's a chair, then, by god, I'm going to sit on your dog. There will be insurmountable evidence, and even proof, that your dog is not a chair, but I have faith! This is also an excellent example of why I often refuse to discourse with religious people: faced with irrefutable fact that one of their precious beliefs is incorrect, they do not change their beliefs, and instead stubbornly continue believing in their faith. (That is not to say that all beliefs can be scientifically disputed. There is no way to either prove or disprove the existence of a deity.)
The problem is that most religious people refuse to admit that. They refuse to acknowledge their blinders and adamantly adhere to their beliefs even when faced with mountains of counter-evidence. A prime example is many devout Christians' refusal to believe in evolution. Evolution is an observable and testable scientific event, regardless of if it's been occurring for billions of years, or only millenia . . . but that's an argument for another thread.
All of that to reiterate: Religion Is Irrational. When you realize that you are arguing against the faith of a religious person, you must give up refuting their illogic, and exit the debate.
Religion is, by definition, irrational. It's looking at the world and saying, "There must exist an unobservable, untestable phenomenon beyond what can be absolutely proven." While there is plenty of objectionable dogma in the Bible, it offers an excellent definition of faith: "Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." You can show me your dog, but if I have unshakable faith that it's a chair, then, by god, I'm going to sit on your dog. There will be insurmountable evidence, and even proof, that your dog is not a chair, but I have faith! This is also an excellent example of why I often refuse to discourse with religious people: faced with irrefutable fact that one of their precious beliefs is incorrect, they do not change their beliefs, and instead stubbornly continue believing in their faith. (That is not to say that all beliefs can be scientifically disputed. There is no way to either prove or disprove the existence of a deity.)
The problem is that most religious people refuse to admit that. They refuse to acknowledge their blinders and adamantly adhere to their beliefs even when faced with mountains of counter-evidence. A prime example is many devout Christians' refusal to believe in evolution. Evolution is an observable and testable scientific event, regardless of if it's been occurring for billions of years, or only millenia . . . but that's an argument for another thread.
All of that to reiterate: Religion Is Irrational. When you realize that you are arguing against the faith of a religious person, you must give up refuting their illogic, and exit the debate.
