How far should "It's my body, I can do what I want" go?

[Lieju]

I believe people should be able to do whatever they want with their bodies, except if there are mental disorders involved, and the person is not of sound mind at the moment.
However, when pregnant, there is the question of the rights of the baby. However,

It's utter rubbish to believe that a foetus is a proper person while it's still in the womb.

It's very difficult to draw the line on where what's growing inside is a creature that should have these rights. Which is why discussions about abortion tend to be stupid, since people feel the need to make it a simple yes/no question.

When it's not. A week old embryo and a nine-month old baby ready to born are not the same thing and should not be treated as such.

And in this particular case, even if the fetus at the moment were not an individual at it's own right, this behaviour will affect it, and the baby it will be.

I think endagering it's health is unethical, but there's no good way to make a law about this that wouldn't be retarded. After all, how would you go about enforcing it? And whether the women knew they were pregnant or what kind of behaviour would be within acceptable limits.

Maybe if it would be about the very last months of pregnancy.

I am surprised that so far (in 97 posts, as of my writing) in the is an unborn a person debate, there seem to only be two sides, that is: yes (personhood begins at conception) and no (personhood begins at childbirth), and not one has mentioned that personhood may begin somewhere along those nine months of gestation.

Yes, that is something that annoys me so much in debates about abortion.

However, in this case, even if it's not a baby yet, this behaviour can affect it and the baby it will become, so I feel in this case it's a slightly different matter.

 

[MikeOfThunder]

You SHOULD be able to do almost anything you want with your own body. But when you pregnant, it's not just YOUR body now is it?

Word for word. Exactly right.

 

[Arkhangelsk]

Until a baby is born, it is a parasite that feeds off a host. The "It's a living human being" is bullshit and made to guilt mothers into carrying full term when maybe they shouldn't. True fucking fact.

People in favor of abortion have to use ass backwards logic to make themselves believe we shouldn't treat a human fetus as a living thing in order to feel justified killing it. True fucking fact.

See how easy it is for me to hyperbole you back? Wanna try calming down and discussing it like a civilized person?

Yep, righto. Yes, I'm in favour of abortion. I also believe that people who think that a foetus that is a living, breathing human being are naive.

Apply my logic to the situation: She's almost 7 months pregnant but drinking heavily when she would have been talked through all the risks of consuming alcohol while carrying. Now, does that child have any chance of being born without a severe medical condition? Very unlikely. Should this woman have aborted a child that she (in this context) probably doesn't want? Yes.

If she wanted to abort, she may not have felt comfortable? Ever seen Juno?

It's utter rubbish to believe that a foetus is a proper person while it's still in the womb.

Given that if she doesn't want it, she should have aborted a long time ago. Having it in her womb that long indicates that she doesn't abort. That makes it wrong to fuck up the baby's life. If she chose to keep it, she must take responsibility. In saying that she's keeping it, she's acknowledging that it is/will be a human, and she must therefore take responsibility for the damage she is causing to it. She knows that it will be born, and if she knows that it will be damaged by the time it comes out because of her actions, she's a fucking immoral *****.

 

[gl1koz3]

All I can say is your body, your problems.

 

[Grimbold]

"It's my body, I can do what I want" deems me a very pubertal argument. It denies every responsibility and advocates shortsighted actions with harmful consequences.
Examples of the same mindset: "You can't send me to school, mom. It's my time and I want to spend it playing Halo."
"It is my car and I don't care if it gets scratches when I dash through crowds."
Or something like that. I love analogies.

 

[imnot]

Remember theres two of us in here.
Oh that Halo 3 quote almost made cry.

Stupid ninja
):
[small]I hate you now [/small]

 

[distended]

Yep, righto. Yes, I'm in favour of abortion. I also believe that people who think that a foetus that is a living, breathing human being are naive.

Apply my logic to the situation: She's almost 7 months pregnant but drinking heavily when she would have been talked through all the risks of consuming alcohol while carrying. Now, does that child have any chance of being born without a severe medical condition? Very unlikely. Should this woman have aborted a child that she (in this context) probably doesn't want? Yes.

If she wanted to abort, she may not have felt comfortable? Ever seen Juno?

It's utter rubbish to believe that a foetus is a proper person while it's still in the womb.

I've always loved this latter opinion. As though there's some magical life-endowing miracle that takes place in the seconds it takes for the baby to move a whopping foot and a half out of the womb. I assume that's the time frame when you think that a baby becomes a human? Or is it when you cut the cord? Or are we not human until we're self sufficient? I'm sure the fully logic-based answer you've made up for yourself isn't naive at all.

 

[Smokej]

As long as you don't try claim payments and services from a public healthcare system, its really is up to you. But í despise people who have willingly ruined their own body and suddenly they see themselves in the role of the victim of society and abuse this system. Also if you're pregnant you should face all the legal consequenses for your bodily harm to the unborn.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

your right to freedom to do anything stops the second your harming somebody physically.

And in the eyes of the law, a fetus isn't a person. So drink up mom!

 

[Xanian]

Seems fair to me. She'll be the one who has to raise the child...she'll be the one who has to cope with her own alcoholism. Sure, the kid could have a better life if it isn't born with a malformed brain, but I don't think it will truly understand the difference either way.

Not saying you should, just that you can.

 

[similar.squirrel]

Should be able to whatever you want. Should not expect help or sympathy. The woman should be forced to terminate her unborn child, however. That kid will not have a good life if it comes out alive.

 

[Xanian]

Yep, righto. Yes, I'm in favour of abortion. I also believe that people who think that a foetus that is a living, breathing human being are naive.

Apply my logic to the situation: She's almost 7 months pregnant but drinking heavily when she would have been talked through all the risks of consuming alcohol while carrying. Now, does that child have any chance of being born without a severe medical condition? Very unlikely. Should this woman have aborted a child that she (in this context) probably doesn't want? Yes.

If she wanted to abort, she may not have felt comfortable? Ever seen Juno?

It's utter rubbish to believe that a foetus is a proper person while it's still in the womb.

I've always loved this latter opinion. As though there's some magical life-endowing miracle that takes place in the seconds it takes for the baby to move a whopping foot and a half out of the womb. I assume that's the time frame when you think that a baby becomes a human? Or is it when you cut the cord? Or are we not human until we're self sufficient? I'm sure the fully logic-based answer you've made up for yourself isn't naive at all.

According to the ancient Romans...you aren't a person until you're about 2...so...difference in opinion, then?

All of our opinions are arbitrary at this point...science and medicine have come so far that the heart can stop and we can live on...and children born at four months can still live. It's a tough call on anyone...which is why I have a hard time watching people lob opinions back and forth as though each is talking to a moron.

 

[Carnage95]

Indeed this woman can do whatever she wants to her body, it's none of my business.

However, now that she is pregnant she should take responsibility in ensuring that when the fetus is born, it will be a healthy baby. She's a idiot and so are the people supporting her drinking. She's basically thinking about herself, having no thoughts about what the drinking will actually do to the fetus and its future (I'm assuming, maybe she knows but just doesn't care). Now, whether or not a fetus is a human being is another story which I will not talk about, since this is about her drinking and its effects on the fetus.

If you don't want it, abort it. But if you've kept it for this long take some responsibility and keep your body healthy, or in this case, stop drinking!

 

[Faladorian]

Of course it should be illegal. I'm all for self-abuse and all (it IS your body, it's yours to do with as you see fit) but parents effectively give up certain rights in order to gain others. This includes not being able to binge for nine measly fucking months while a future-human GROWS IN YOUR STOMACH.

In return, you gain the right to raise that human and teach it as you were taught.

Slippery slope and all that.

There needs to be better education. Not litigation.

I can't stand the idea of women drinking while pregnant but it's not my body, I think they should have the right to drink, I also think that when they do so everyone should be disgusted.

Still though, it's hard for me to accept that argument when it comes from a pregnant woman because her actions now have a DIRECT and UNAVOIDABLE impact on the free will of another individual. Maybe not right now (if you want to argue from the pro-abortionist's perspective), but most definitely in the future. What's the real difference between this and someone leaving a baby locked in a parked car?

Maybe I'm just not able to separate my own visceral reactions from the circumstances surrounding this specific brand of wrong-doing, and for that I apologize, but what that woman is doing feels inexplicably like abuse. It's just a slightly modified method of doing so.

Actually, you're right. Even though I am probably the most pro-abortion person you will ever meet, this is still not right. If she doesn't miscarry, that child is going to have fetal alcohol syndrome for one, maybe a nice slew of other mental deficiencies.

If she didn't want it she should have just aborted it. Or, and this is preferable in my opinion, force a miscarriage and never have kids. She doesn't seem like a suitable parent to me.

 

[drisky]

One of the big pro-choice arguments is that growing up in an orphanage is a bad life for the child, well giving a kid birth defects and being born to an alcoholic unfit mother certainly isn't good for the child.

So you have a couple who've decided they don't want to look after a child, take them outside to their pool, drop them in and watch them drown.

"It's for the good of the child"

I call bull. You can't drive a Ferrari with a hot g/bf if you've got a baby carrier, won't fit in a two seater super sport. Can't go play golf with your workmates, hang with the girl friends and chat up randoms. It's about the parents, not the children. "SAVE THE CHILDREN" is in this case, and as per usual, complete rubbish.

Not really the point of my statement, this isn't about the women wanting an abortion its about wanting a child but not the responsibility. I didn't really make a stance on the abortion issue in my comment, just the fetal alcohol syndrome issue. I don't see how there is any kind of morality in "I want to make my kid sick that is my business". Its a different circumstance then abortion. How the hell you got "We should drown any one who doesn't want to be a parent" from my comment is a little ridiculous. When I was saying it was a pro choice argument I was talking about the opinion that getting rid of the child is a better option then bringing the kid into the world with a bad life, and being born with birth defects is just a more extreme case off this.

 

[spartan231490]

You SHOULD be able to do almost anything you want with your own body. But when you pregnant, it's not just YOUR body now is it?

From a moral standpoint, make it illegal because of this.

from a legal standpoint, it'd be almost impossible to enforce. Look at how hard they are pushing to stop underage drinking, and how little success they are getting. Add to that the fact that it's pretty easy to hide being pregnant until third trimester, and it's an enforcement nightmare.

 

[Xisin]

This falls under, yes, the mother can do whatever she wants with her body.

If she wants to drink while pregnant, she can. That's her choice.

Do I think it's stupid and completely unfair on the child when it's born? Yes, I think it's horrendously idiotic to drink while pregnant (especially in the amounts she posted about).

It should not be illegal though.

I could not agree with you more.

Just because something is stupid, doesn't mean there should be a law. Whenever a law is passed, someone's freedom is restricted.

 

[diebane]

People who have an "It's my body, I drink if I want, even if I'm pregnant" - attitude also believe that they OWN the child, which they don't. Selfish people!

mfG diebane