And yet when there are noises in the attic or there's something wrong with the cable you turn to the supernatural.tenlong said:AndyFromMonday said:So if I go in a building expecting a ghost I will not see you. Please explain to me why would I ever bother going into a building expecting a ghost?tenlong said:AndyFromMonday said:Either an illusion or a hallucination.tenlong said:how do you explain that a a kitchen pan raised clean off a stove by itself. Plus how do explain that 100 plus people see the same thing but have never spoke to each other privously.AndyFromMonday said:"Parnomal things had happened at different times of day and night. A lot this happen during my highschool years. My family lived in a haughted house. My grandma saw a kitchen raised off the stove by itself. Most of my family saw a ghost of a 11 to 13 year old girl. At first my grandma saw it and thought my little brothers {13 and 14 at the time] snuck a girl in the house.[they honestly didn't.] We ripped the house apart looking for the girl but found nothing.plus the outside doors were still locked.{only the adults had a key to the house.] My family all but me saw ghosts in that house. To this day i never saw a ghost in person. I saw signs of a ghost."tenlong said:Parnomal things had happened at different times of day and night. A lot this happen during my highschool years. My family lived in a haughted house. My grandma saw a kitchen raised off the stove by itself. Most of my family saw a ghost of a 11 to 13 year old girl. At first my grandma saw it and thought my little brothers {13 and 14 at the time] snuck a girl in the house.[they honestly didn't.] We ripped the house apart looking for the girl but found nothing.plus the outside doors were still locked.{only the adults had a key to the house.] My family all but me saw ghosts in that house. To this day i never saw a ghost in person. I saw signs of a ghost.AndyFromMonday said:Evolution does not deal with the origins of life, evolution deals with the way life adapted to it's enviroment. From the most simplest of cells to the most complex organisms.tenlong said:So you are saying a building can build itself? Get me a plane ticket i like to see it. On a side note how do explain paranormal events like ghost and demons etc. My family and i seen paranormal events that science can't explain. {No we don't do drugs or are insane.]SsilverR said:bio organisms can develope and evolve on their own, they're alive .. concrete isn't .. i'm sorry man but that is by far one of the worst arguments i've heardtenlong said:I believe in god. The day i believe in evolution is the day i see a building gather all the materials needed to build itself and then builds itself. That is next to impossible.That is like 900 quadrillion to 1.
How do I explain paranormal events? That can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence aka provide evidence that those paranormal events happened and then I will believe you. But out of curiosity, what were those events that you exprienced? Now again out of curiosity, did that happen at night by any chance?
I came back from 12 hour shift at work,got some food from sonic's. I turned on the tv while i eat like i always do. Then the cable started to mess up.{You remember on old tvs where you didnt have the cable plug in it turn to static. It was like someone was pulling the cable out. My cable wire was hard to unplug. You manully had to turn the turn the wire a special way then pull it out. I lost it and started to cuss." You motherfucking ghost ***** better leave my cable alone before i beat your ghost ass!"
The cable starts going crazy. static/no static for like a minute. I cussed again "Ghost ***** why don't go up in the attic? No one is up there." A few secs later i hear heavy stomping up in the attic.{everyone else was asleep at time.] I then said "You better stop before i beat your ghost ass!" The stomping stops. I am a see to believe it kind of guy when it comes to ghosts. Lastly we didn't handy at the time. what are suppose to put cammeras all over our house to prove. Plus we were a proud family and was not going to be chased out of our house. If a ghost came to us threatening us, we would be like."Shut the fuck up and get the fuck out of my house!" We was not scared in the least.
"Peduncular means pertaining to the peduncle, which is a neural tract running to and from the pons on the brain stem. These hallucinations usually occur in the evenings, but not during drowsiness, as in the case of hypnagogic hallucination. The subject is usually fully conscious and can interact with the hallucinatory characters for extended periods of time. As in the case of hypnagogic hallucinations, insight into the nature of the images remains intact. The false images can occur in any part of the visual field, and are rarely polymodal."
"I came back from 12 hour shift at work,got some food from sonic's. I turned on the tv while i eat like i always do. Then the cable started to mess up.{You remember on old tvs where you didnt have the cable plug in it turn to static. It was like someone was pulling the cable out. My cable wire was hard to unplug. You manully had to turn the turn the wire a special way then pull it out. I lost it and started to cuss." You motherfucking ghost ***** better leave my cable alone before i beat your ghost ass!"
You ever thinked for a second that there might have been a problem with the cable itself and not a ghost?
"The cable starts going crazy. static/no static for like a minute. I cussed again "Ghost ***** why don't go up in the attic? No one is up there." A few secs later i hear heavy stomping up in the attic.{everyone else was asleep at time.] I then said "You better stop before i beat your ghost ass!" The stomping stops. I am a see to believe it kind of guy when it comes to ghosts. Lastly we didn't handy at the time. what are suppose to put cammeras all over our house to prove. Plus we were a proud family and was not going to be chased out of our house. If a ghost came to us threatening us, we would be like."Shut the fuck up and get the fuck out of my house!" We was not scared in the least"
Again, there might have been a problem with the cable and the attic disturbances might have been rats.
Shit that happened to me:
The closet's door above the kitchen ,where we keep forks and such, is not exactly "good". It always opens. Sometimes when it oppens forks fall out of it. Does that mean a ghost did it? I sure did taught so until I saw it happen right before my eyes. Changed the door and never had a problem since.
I woke up one night suddently seeing 2 pairs of red eyes staring at me. Was that a ghost? No. Was that a night terror? Yes.
When I was at school me and my friends would usually hear noises coming from the bathroom. It turned out to be a broken pipe.
When I used to go to my grandparents I used to hear noises in the attic. I taught it was a ghost too and started screaming one day at it to stop and it actually did stop. My grandfather came in the room and asked me what the fuck was I doing. I told him I was trying to scare the ghost away. 1 hour later me and him were comming down from the attic having just killed 3 rats.
I used to hear fainth voices and taught it was a ghost. When I went to the doctor about a bad cut I had at my hand and I told him about what me hearing shit. It turned out that it was a mild form of hallucination known as a disturbance.
Has a kid I used to see images form in the dark right before I fell asleep. Told the doctor about those too and apparently they are very common and are called hypnagogic hallucination.
All of these stopped by the time I was aged 17.
100 people see the same thing but have never spoken to each other?...what? See what?
Like a demon, ghost etc. On side note i worked in so called ghost infested buildings and didn't see anything. I believe if go in a place expecting ghosts etc you will think any thing is ghost related. I believe in ghosts etc but i am a big believer in the simple solution is usually right.
The simple solution seems right because it's simple. The complex solution seem false because it's complex and most of the times very hard to understand. It's a very weird "logic".
Yes, I do think that all the 100 or so people who claimed they saw ghosts and demons are lieing or witnessed an event that they weren't able to describe and so they attributed it to the supernatural. We can attribute everything to the supernatural: What was that noise? It was a ghost! Where does that smell come from? It's a demon! You see, you chose the simplest solution without even investigating. What happens when you investigate? You see that a claim without evidence is a claim that cannot be trusted.
The reason someone goes to a place expecting is most likely to ghost stores or wanting to be scared.{There is nothing wrong with a good spook hunt every now and then.] When i said i believe in the simple solution is usually right i meant for example you hear a strange noise it is probaly a bad pipe or something on that line. When i was kid i lived next to the furance room for years so i pay strange noises no mind. My bed would have to lift itself off the floor with me in it before i would think there is proof of a ghost.
I am curious...why should God "have to be provable"?
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And yet when there are noises in the attic or there's something wrong with the cable you turn to the supernatural.tenlong said:
The reason i thought they were ghost related was because the cable wouldn't show static unless you unplug it. If the cable went out it would go black. The stomping wasn't like a rat crawling in the attic. It sounded like someone was river dancing up there. I had a bad day at work that night and was pissed off.AndyFromMonday said:
Been done. Sorta.MetalPhoenix said:
So, to answer your question, he'd likely say "God, isn't god a shit!"Richard Dawkins said:
I've read a bunch of this thread and was dismayed that nobody refuted these statements, which are complete fallacies.MrBlackers said:
- Nazi Germany was a cruel regime, for sure. Nobody I know, atheist or theist would condone, the actions of the Nazis. It's easy to say that Hitler was an atheist, but based on several statements he made he had a belief in god and was a Roman Catholic. It's easy, even for me to assume, though, that those statements could have been lies to appease the populace. It is clear that the was born Catholic, and it can be argued as to if he remained that or actually was an atheist. Either way, though, he did not to what he did because of his belief/disbelief in god. Assuming he was an atheist, this was not what influenced him to do what he did. No proof can be produced of him using atheism to justify his actions, and his actions did nothing to advance the cause of atheism. There is a clear distinction here that has to be made. The Inquisition, for an easy example, was completely montivated and "justified" by religion had there not been a religion, there would have been no cause for the events. Hitler and the Nazis may have been atheists, but their actions were entirely separate from their cosmic beliefs.
- Stalin was surely an atheist. The same point I made above applies here. Show me any proof that it was his athiesm that cause his actions. Yes, he did kill people who were religious, but that isn't proof... it wasn't because they were religious, it was because he was extemely paranoid and anybody who he thought was, could be, had been, or would be a threat he killed or sent to the gulags regardless of race, religion, etc...
- Early 1800s Mexico's most significant activity was the revolt from Spanish rule led by a Catholic priest. I'm not too strong on Latin American history, so please inform me if I'm ignorant of something that would pertain to your point.
- You have your two points of things that people who may have been or were atheists did that were entirely separate from their beliefs. Are you really going to ignore the multitudes of modern conflicts that are irrefutably cause by religon? September 11, Coalition invasion of the Middle East (though this arguably has alterior motives), Iraqi civil war, London bombings and most terrorism in general, Israeli-Palestine conflict, Northern Ireland, India-Pakistan, Tibet, Chinese persecution of Uighurs...
It is one thing to say that athists sometimes do very bad things. So do people of all demographics. It is quite another to say that it is their atheism which causes this, to say that is completely false. It is, however, an irrefutable fact that religion always has, still does, and as long as it is around, always will inspire people to do completely cruel and irrational things.
Not to say that all people who are religious would do these things, but their support of religion allows extremists, who actually believe what their scripture says, to take action to the detriment of all humans.
Oh, you are right but this because I did not correctly state my argument, which is my own fault. First off these are not complete fallacies, but are somewhat wrong because of my inability to state what I meant. I was saying that Nazi Germany and the U.S.S.R were places that persecuted people for being religious, not that their leader's atheism was the reason. In other words Stalin followed the "Religion is the opiate of the people" jabberwocky and therefore said "let me torture and kill or at least control all aspects of religion ion my state". That should cover the first two points. In terms of 19th century Mexico, I mean 20th century Mexico as it was a brain fart (me being rather stupid). I was referring to the Communist rule of the country that resulted in MANY, MANY executions. The same goes for 20th century Spain. Much can be read about the former in "The Power and the Glory" by Graham Greene.
That said, religion has caused issues and most likely will for a long time to come. What I was posting here against are the (they can be 15 and think they are teh awesome or grizzled generation X, I grew up in the 80's take that society types) atheists who believe that because I believe I am automatically an idiot. My most basic point was that atheism can and has caused the same issues theism has, belief will cause issues and to blame believers for issues is to strip off half of the issue and beat the other half because it is shiny and had more followers for most of modern history. Also, the argument that atheists are angry because theists seek to convert them, well that is pure hogwash. I mean really, some evangelical is bothering you so I need to hear how stupid I am? That's what I meant, granted my argument had holes, but I hope I've made my point a little more clearly.
That said, religion has caused issues and most likely will for a long time to come. What I was posting here against are the (they can be 15 and think they are teh awesome or grizzled generation X, I grew up in the 80's take that society types) atheists who believe that because I believe I am automatically an idiot. My most basic point was that atheism can and has caused the same issues theism has, belief will cause issues and to blame believers for issues is to strip off half of the issue and beat the other half because it is shiny and had more followers for most of modern history. Also, the argument that atheists are angry because theists seek to convert them, well that is pure hogwash. I mean really, some evangelical is bothering you so I need to hear how stupid I am? That's what I meant, granted my argument had holes, but I hope I've made my point a little more clearly.
Because 1/4* of the Atheists on the internet are angsty teenagers who either had a bad experience with religion or are being [gratuitous air-quotes] edgy [/gratuitous air-quotes]Shycte said:
[sub]*irrelevant bullshit statistic[/sub]
Who said god controls your life? Thats what is called fatalism, and I am not a fatalist. You control your actions So your choices are your own. Therefore you would be doomed for eternity in hellfire because of YOUR OWN actions. ( I'm not trying to scare you into beleiving, merely making a point) And I did not question the gender and looks of god in my last post, Reread it.sramota said:
By saying that "the leader's atheism wasn't the reason," you're agreeing with my main point here. Stalin was an equal opportunity persecutor, he killed religious and he killed scientists. He killed fellow Bolsheviks who were probably just as athiestic as he was. Anyone who he percieved as a threat, he killed or exiled. My point still stands: athiesm wasn't the motivation behind his killing.MrBlackers said:
As far as Mexico goes, I assume you're referring to Obregon, the 1917 constitution, and the Cristero War. Because the clergy was associated with the old ways, and the established ruling class it was natural that in a violent revolution that was an attempt to completely demolish the old "opressive" rule everything associated with it would have to be destroyed for the new, more "enlightened" rule to replace it. Though rarely in cases like these is the result much better that what was there to begin with for the common people. Another example of this is the French Revolution, the clergy, which was one of the two higher estates along with the nobility that controlled the vast majority of the population, was destroyed along with the noblilty. In both cases, it was not the revolters' atheism (though they aren't necessarily atheists... you can hate the establiched church and still believe in god) that caused them to revolt, it was the percieved persecution by the people in power... the noblilty and clergy.
My point is not that athiests are somehow in general better people and unable to do bad things. It is that there is a clear difference between someone of a particular religion/race/etc doing something bad, and someone doing something bad entirely because of their religion, that would have no purpose behind it if not for their extraordinarily strong and irrational beliefs, and that they would otherwise not do.
And again it was never my intention to say because these people were atheists they did this it was to say atheists have done the same things as theists, we're all the same and only argue because of that fact. The Crusades were in many ways economical with religious overtones and I suppose with enough paper mache and halloween masks could have been an atheistic attack on the Middle East. I just believe it's wrong to say religion is wrong because it causes conflict because, well, almost everything has a bad side.
EDIT: And though these were seen as associated with the "Old Ways", they still hated them because they were part of it. I mean your argument is basically they hated them not for being them but for being associated with something, but to say that guilt by association isn't guilt is farfetched. And I am well aware of how religion played out in Revolutionary France, enjoying history myself, and the same argument used in relation to mexico applies. I mean look at the writings of Richard Dawkins he exemplifies the "persecution" (sorry a better word doesn't come to mind, aka hating them and telling them they're wrong because they think differently) of theists and proves if nothing else that atheists can get vocal without being trespassed.
EDIT: And though these were seen as associated with the "Old Ways", they still hated them because they were part of it. I mean your argument is basically they hated them not for being them but for being associated with something, but to say that guilt by association isn't guilt is farfetched. And I am well aware of how religion played out in Revolutionary France, enjoying history myself, and the same argument used in relation to mexico applies. I mean look at the writings of Richard Dawkins he exemplifies the "persecution" (sorry a better word doesn't come to mind, aka hating them and telling them they're wrong because they think differently) of theists and proves if nothing else that atheists can get vocal without being trespassed.
You're completely missing the point. Athiesm in itself does not cause people to do irrational and violent things. Religion does. Anyone who knows anything about history knows that the crusades, especially the later ones were staged by the elite for more economic than religious reasons, but what did they use to rile up all the simple minded commoners to travel an incredibly long distance and go brutally slaugther innocent Muslims? Religion. There would never have been such fury involved, so many people involved, had the people in power not used religion to rile the people up.MrBlackers said:
?Onward, Christians Soldiers? marching as to war, with the cross of Jesus going on before!
Christ, the royal Master, leads against the foe; forward into battle. See His banners go!"
Nothing but religion and its lies can stir up such irrational emotion in people who might otherwise be completely normal and balanced. You might say that the Pope and the rulers of Europe during the crusades knew that they were spouting crap, but they knew, unlike non-fundamentalist theists today, of the power of this crap to cause people to give them large sums of money for meaningless things and commit horrific acts of violence that advance the position of those in power... to do horribly irrational things without any second thought.
You are correct, i did miss some of the point, but I cannot hear that religion causes deaths atheism will not. You are right religion was used to stir up feelings of hatred, but who are you to say that a country of atheists couldn't be riled to go and kill a bunch of theists. We haven't seen this mainly because atheism has really only seen any remote popularity in the last half of a millenium. And from what I hear is hopefully on the decline. To say that you can rile idiots with religion and not rile idiot atheists by spouting on about how stupid those who don't believe makes no sense.
You've backtracked further now. Presumably you can hear that religion causes deaths, and athiesm HAS not... but not that it WILL not?MrBlackers said:
To argue that it is far less likely for atheists to be riled to go kill theists:
-Atheism cannot offer promises of virgins in heaven or eternal salvation. These are what influences people to throw their life away for meaningless causes. Athiests know that this life is the only life they have and won't so easily go throw it away because some religious figure told them to.
-There is no holy book or word from a supreme being that can be interpreted as telling atheists to go kill theists. Some charismatic leader telling you to go crusade against something is far less powerful than that same leader with an all-powerful being to back him up.
-Most people who are rational enough to reject falsehoods are hopefully also rational enough to understand that you can't force belief (or lack thereof) or people. You can only present them with a solid case on why to agree with you and let them make their own decisions. Most atheists are liberals who want to let people live their own life the way they want to as long as their decisions cause no harm to anyone else.
My point here is not to say that religion should be forcefully banished from humanity. Originally it was to refute the fallacies that you posted so someone else would not simply take them as fact. I do think that the world would be a better place without religion and the irrational convictions it brings, but to force people to reject their religions would be as bad as what religions have done to people and they would still harbor their original beliefs. There just needs to be more questioning and factual information about religon in the public sphere, it needs to be as open to discussion as politics and sports and anything about which people have differing opinions. People will have to actually think about and defend their beliefs, and if they decide to retain them that's completely their perogative, but slowly more and more people will think rationally and learn to reason for themselves what to think and why to think it.
As a sidenote, you are quite wrong in saying that atheism is on the decline.
http://americanhumanist.org/hnn/archives/index.php?id=281&article=0
Well, I suppose I just won't be able to agree, considering that i must acknowledge that we think differently. However, I made the statement about a decline in atheism predominantly based on a book written about the decline in atheism, it's name eludes me but it was written by the man who wrote the book "The Dawkins Delusion". Honestly, whether it is or isn't, I wouldn't base my statistics on Generation Next, since they're still young and a lot of them probably see it as "intellectually fashionable" (I mean no offense, but as a teenager it seems to me that most of us who have intelligence misuse it by waving around epeens about how awesome atheism is or how awesome we think we are). Again, I cannot see what I am saying as wrong because yes it's true atheism has no virgin, eternal life, etc, but it is a belief (or really a lack thereof) and as all beliefs will have those who wish to force it upon it others because they think that they are correct. I mean I could say I can teach Christianity and hope that people who follow it would get that you aren't supposed to kill others for their beliefs, but then again you can do the same with atheism. It inspires feelings of belief that the person is right and therefore will cause conflict. I just can't understand atheism, agnosticism okay, but basically making life devoid of any real reward except to enjoy it, which basically destroys any reason to work or do anything (but that's another topic, please lets not start up a flame war).
-You really don't think that people aged 18-25 are mature enough to know what they believe and why? I could see your argument about some 12 year old who's going waving around his atheism to look cool but when asked why he's an atheist he can't answer coherently and with reason. (As a sidenote, people like that are no more rational that theists). But are you really saying that a significant number of 18-25 year olds are that immature?MrBlackers said:
-My original point is made, though. The examples from history you gave do not show violence caused by atheism, but violence by a small number of people who may have been athiests. There are numerous examples from history and from the present of religion directly motivating people to do violent and irrational things based on a belief that has no reason to back it. To expound on that, as we have, the best way to predict what will happen in the future is based on previous trends. 4000+ years of data about human civilization shows that religion, with its fantastic claims, has a potential to stir people to irrationality, violence, and fanaticism that nothing else can match.
-So are you saying with that last sentence that you wouldn't do work or anything without god? Is not life itself enough reward? Out of the infinite number of possible people that could have been born, you were. You have a chance to make your mark on the world that if one little thing had happened differently, you would never have gotten. (That could be on the genetic level, or think of all the things that could have happened so your parents never would have had you... and this applies to all people, not just you). My life is not devoid of meaning, I want to do something to leave my mark on the world in a good way, so people will remember me long after I'm gone, and in that sense I would "live on." But the chances of that happening are low, and if I can enjoy and appreciate my time to be alive and help people who are close to me have a good life, then that's great. I don't need a god to give my life purpose, I need to find what I'm good at to give purpose to myself. And I don't need a reward outside of life, because the chance to live, to learn, and to accomplish something is a reward in itself.
Well first I'd like to apologize, I didn't mean your life had no purpose, that was harsh, more so that life is very much more so colorful with a god.
Other than that I would like to say that where you speak of trends, I think it is impossible to remark upon that simply because atheism has really only been prominent for a few hundred years. To me tens of thousands of years of theism cannot really be weighed against the few centuries of accepted atheism. That said it is a possibility that ceasing to exist as it where is "a heaven" in and of itself, with a creator god behind it (I understand it's a long shot, I'm just saying it is possible.) Oh! And I know my ordering is off, but I'm very tired. To be honest, yes I would call many 18-25 year olds immature. I'm not saying I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread, nor am I all that great, but I can at least say that I normally don't prescribe to something because it is cool. What I often find funny is when you have people who go into fads in the gaming community (since the gaming community is almost "uncool" in itself. Of course I'm not insulting something I'm a part of, I refer to it terms of the broader social spectrum). Many older people are even immature, so it's no stretch for me to imagine many 18-25 year olds buying into something to look cool. Just examine the ages of many posters here and you'll see quite a few in the 1990-1994 years (which though not all in the aforementioned demographic are part of that general age group I suppose). Many of those I've spoken with on these forums are in that age group and often are "angry because Christians want to impress their beliefs on us" (and really nothing else except that twilight is awesome, as is marajuana, and harold and Kumar). Somehow these things are grounds for atheism or something /boggle. (It was a joke, really).
Other than that I would like to say that where you speak of trends, I think it is impossible to remark upon that simply because atheism has really only been prominent for a few hundred years. To me tens of thousands of years of theism cannot really be weighed against the few centuries of accepted atheism. That said it is a possibility that ceasing to exist as it where is "a heaven" in and of itself, with a creator god behind it (I understand it's a long shot, I'm just saying it is possible.) Oh! And I know my ordering is off, but I'm very tired. To be honest, yes I would call many 18-25 year olds immature. I'm not saying I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread, nor am I all that great, but I can at least say that I normally don't prescribe to something because it is cool. What I often find funny is when you have people who go into fads in the gaming community (since the gaming community is almost "uncool" in itself. Of course I'm not insulting something I'm a part of, I refer to it terms of the broader social spectrum). Many older people are even immature, so it's no stretch for me to imagine many 18-25 year olds buying into something to look cool. Just examine the ages of many posters here and you'll see quite a few in the 1990-1994 years (which though not all in the aforementioned demographic are part of that general age group I suppose). Many of those I've spoken with on these forums are in that age group and often are "angry because Christians want to impress their beliefs on us" (and really nothing else except that twilight is awesome, as is marajuana, and harold and Kumar). Somehow these things are grounds for atheism or something /boggle. (It was a joke, really).
Oh, I've tried to believe in God, trust me, I've sought him, I've begged, I've hunted,Tdc2182 said:
but no, there's nothing that can make me believe in God, it's in my very nature to not accept.
And I just expanded on the beard issue.
So what ACTIONS will doom me?
The fact that I love unconditionally? That I help the poor? That I do charity work every week? That I study psychology at a university level just to help others?
"Oh but it's your faith"
Well, you see, that's not an action. That's a thought. Thought and action are NOT the same thing. (And there's fMRI's to prove it!)