Hahaha, sorry. I just had to laugh at that.Hyper-space said:
Gaming isn't dying at all, it seems it's just producing more crap than usual. There is only two things E3 has shown me that I like so far. :/
I think Gaming is slowly dying.
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Gaming isn't dying at all, it seems it's just producing more crap than usual. There is only two things E3 has shown me that I like so far. :/
Just accept all the stupid descisions that the publishers/developers make and enjoy all the good things about gaming.
I.. pretty much disagree with each and every point. So let's start from the beginning, shall we?
Yes, piracy is a problem, but it's nowhere near the problem that some studios try to make it be, it's a convenient boogeyman.
Lack of development on PC is more of an issue with sales per title. Console game's are often a bit like Fire and Forget missiles, you play it once then you grab a new one, obvious profit. PC users on the other hand tend to be more picky and stay longer with single title. Look at Counter-Strike - it still has active community, it's pretty much most often played game on Steam with about 100k peak each day between CS and CS:Source.
Analogy with films holds no real ground since first - you only get to watch the movie once for those 10$, second - Director's Cut is exactly forcing you to pay for scenes that you didn't watch in the original, and three - can't compare online dynamic experience to set in stone nature of movie.
It is nostalgia. The quality is going up. Games are, on average scale, more complex than they were before. Technology evolved like mad over last 15-20 years. We went from measuring memory in bits through megabytes to gigabytes. Processing speed went from 740kHz in first Intel to over 3 GHz. This allows for a lot more improvements on the gameplay part.SpartanBlackman said:
Piracy exists and always existed on consoles. If you believe otherwise you are brainwashed by companies. Banned Xboxes sell like cupcakes, because pirates don't care about online service.
Yes, piracy is a problem, but it's nowhere near the problem that some studios try to make it be, it's a convenient boogeyman.
Lack of development on PC is more of an issue with sales per title. Console game's are often a bit like Fire and Forget missiles, you play it once then you grab a new one, obvious profit. PC users on the other hand tend to be more picky and stay longer with single title. Look at Counter-Strike - it still has active community, it's pretty much most often played game on Steam with about 100k peak each day between CS and CS:Source.
On big part you have the trade-in market of console gaming to thank for this one. For companies it's simply a way to secure income from the second-hand sales, other reason is to upkeep the interest in the franchise, which is also issue that ties to previous point. If games get "chewed" one after another it's harder to build solid mark. DLC provides reminder. Don't like it - vote with your wallet. DLCs are not integral part of game and "online passes" are only issue for second-hand sales.
Analogy with films holds no real ground since first - you only get to watch the movie once for those 10$, second - Director's Cut is exactly forcing you to pay for scenes that you didn't watch in the original, and three - can't compare online dynamic experience to set in stone nature of movie.
If you look at the mainstream aspect of any medium you will notice the same. Have you peeked at indie scene recently however? It's growing, it's thriving, it's bringing innovation. If you only limit yourself to big budget productions don't expect much of fresh ideas. That's not how business works. People are more likely to buy things they already know - simple as that. Gaming industry is business, don't fool yourself it's something else, risky investment are rare because they are risky. Part of the blame is on gamers who will moan and frown at any attempt of change. Just browse the forums, you will see it.
Look above.
Except it is not a fact, and could probably not be much further from the truth.SpartanBlackman said:
Consolization is just economics. But sure, I agree it's a bad thing.
(This also somewhat explains piracy: It's largely a non-issue on consoles, so devs don't take measures (like releasing demos!) to promote non-pirated versions for PC. Also high prices.)
Gaming is a CHEAP hobby.SpartanBlackman said:
For photography - my 2nd hobby after gaming - you need the same beast of a PC, and I have about $3000 worth of equipment. I think very few people have $3000 worth of games...
It has always been like this, so by that logic gaming has been happily "dying" since the 80's.SpartanBlackman said:
Economics. This is a business, after all.SpartanBlackman said:
Basically, you - like me - are butthurt that gaming is losing its hipster cred, but for completely different reasons. I just want my skill-based games back.
Oh yeah, well I think YOU'RE slowly dying.
Pettiness aside, there's always innovation if you know where to look, aka: not the huge big-budget games. There are still innovative AAA games such a Brutal Legend and LA Noire.
Pettiness aside, there's always innovation if you know where to look, aka: not the huge big-budget games. There are still innovative AAA games such a Brutal Legend and LA Noire.
Are there aspect of the industry that have remained stagnant? Sure, and there are different aspects that become such at different points in time. Shooters are the hot thing nowadays, but I seriously doubt that it's going to remain like that forever. To be honest, OP, I think you're being too dramatic. Yes, parts of it suck, but the same goes with the music and film industry. The game industry has committed its share of sins, but it's anywhere close to dying, as you make it out to be.
Don't be so naive. Of course, games should be able to provide a solid entertainment experience for the prices we pay, but let's not kid ourselves-games have to make money. If they don't, then there's no money to be had to make more. Don't cloud your thinking with the thought that games should be about art and no less. There has to be a profit in there somewhere for the people who put time and money into making the game in the first place. Not only that, but I'd hate it if every game is done for the sole purpose of being artistic, or being artistic before being entertaining.SpartanBlackman said:
Everyone felt the same way about music a while back.
But sure enough, underground bands, indie groups and small labels, turned everyone's feelings around by getting back into the 'spirit' of things.
To me, Indie games and small developers are doing the same right now.
I haven't spent over £10 on a game ($15-ish) for over two years.
Excluding Portal 2 - which came with a ton of indie games in the 'potato pack'.
But sure enough, underground bands, indie groups and small labels, turned everyone's feelings around by getting back into the 'spirit' of things.
To me, Indie games and small developers are doing the same right now.
I haven't spent over £10 on a game ($15-ish) for over two years.
Excluding Portal 2 - which came with a ton of indie games in the 'potato pack'.
There's nothing that pisses me off more then pretentious ass holes waving their conspiracy theories around, ranting about how literally every aspect of their life was better when they where a kid, and writing off anyone who's interests differ from theirs as idiotic knuckle draggers.
Gaming isn't dying, gaming's doing just fine, in fact better then fine. This is the highest the industry has ever gotten and the piracy, copypasta and "consolization" does nothing but validate that. It's a big media now, games have to deal with thieves, follow trends to stay competitive and appeal to more then just a niche audience.
Gaming isn't dying, gaming's doing just fine, in fact better then fine. This is the highest the industry has ever gotten and the piracy, copypasta and "consolization" does nothing but validate that. It's a big media now, games have to deal with thieves, follow trends to stay competitive and appeal to more then just a niche audience.
I'll quote some parts of your post because, even though I agree, I think you're looking at the wrong direction mostly.SpartanBlackman said:
To start off, I didn't get what you meant by every game becoming "DA2". The only one to follow the example of Bioware and make more shit games that don't sell anything like DA2 is Bioware. So no, that won't happen.
1. You seem to think that piracy never existed before this generation. It always has and always will exist. The problem is when companies throw mony out of the window for a more "immersive experience" and such bullcrap, which only increases the money they spend to make it, instead of focusing...i dunno....making the game GOOD. Do you know the real reason why people pirate the shit out of modern games, especially, but not exclusively, on PC? Because they shell out a shedload of money to play he newest game, and then get shafted by purchasing mediocre games which, despite the good looks, are not worth the money they spent. Result, disgruntled customers who either return the crap they bought within the week or pirate. What's REALLY killing the industry is MEDIOCRITY. Oh and...whatyou call "consolization"? I call it casualization. This is waht you beloved deveopers think of you. That you're idiots, thatthey can fool you by making the games "simpler". They dont get that bymaking the games simpler doesn't work. They need to be GOOD. You don't remove somthing from a sequel, you IMPROVE IT. Good games sell and their developers make a profit...DESPITE the piracy. As it was, is now and forever shall be. Moving on.
2.Generally, I agree with this view, but really, stop with the Kotick hate. It's gotten old. He's not the harbinger of the Apocalypse as many outlets (including this one) wants you to believe. He's like every single one of those publishers. No different. They know their game is shit and incomplete, and need to make extra cash, hence DLC which, up until the last gen (just 5 years ago) was called "unlockables". Though I have no problem with DLC not big enough to be an expansion but too big to be a patch.
3.Open your eyes. Following the leader has always been a maxim. There's always a successful pioneer among the thousands who failed, and everyone follows him. That's not necessarily bad you know. That's GOOD, because it can lead to IMPROVEMENT. You may call them genero-shooters, but people like them and find them interesting. And WILL find them interesting until something BETTER comes out. Your feelings on the matter are irrelevant, because, face it, you're the minority. But...and that's a big but....there's always the bad examples. DA2 is a prime example. They thought that by "actionizing" an CRPG would draw in more players. It could....if it was any good. In the end though, it not only alienated the longtime fans of Bioware RPGs, it also failed to capture the new traget audience because it was a mediocre (at best) action game. Same goes with Metroid:Other M btw. And no. Indie games are not the answer as theyare mostly shit or artsy shit. If they were any good they would be more well-known (like Minecraft, or World of Goo).
4.From what I gather, by "art" you mean the game creation art, not the stupid "videogames are art" argument. Yes, cash cows are indeed bad, but sequels are not. The problem with Vampire is that all that debugging should've happened in the first place. By the time they went on to do it, it was already too late. If developers are interested in the art of making games, they should focus on not biting more than they can chew, and then improving gradually. But, as we all know, all most of them want to make is movies, not games.
So, yes. Gaming should change. Instead of having devs with their head stuck up their asses, we should have devs who are interested in making money in the long run. And that means making GOOD games, and not screwing the customer over. If a game is good, more customers will be interested and will buy it, which will lead tofurther blooming of this medium. Justmy 2 cents on the matter.
I Wouldnt say that gaming is dying more like decaying/evolving,setting the foundation for the next innovation. there will be always people who find and support hidden gems among the waves of mainstream games an example of this would be X3 terran conflict Terraria Reccetear.
I bought this off steam during cheap xmas deals along with other developer packs as it looked pretty good, a space sim where you can wage war do mission build empires and factories and its REALLY in depth as you can go from builing an giant corperation to waging war against factions and boarding ships, it sadly has a learning curve the size of a skyscraper but that can also work in its favour as you will find new ways to do things and are always learning what really amazed me was the community and how big it was for a relatively small company best £10 i spent in my life and you can spect me to be buying the next game X rebirth
while i do agree that DLC is ruining the gaming experience like but if done well it enhances it so much Shivering isles is a good example of this while the other addons were good they didnt expand much of the game in oblivion.
Now that gaming is close to hitting the graphics limit more companies should be using that funding for other aspects of the game eg. Story asthetics mehanics immersion
this problem isnt only affecting the gaming Intustry but more of the whole entertainment industry Anime Gaming Movie Music all of them are slowly stagnating but there will always be smaller companies that are willing to take risks that make the next leap in innovation while big companies try to make safe games
Interesting links
X Rebirth Trailer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LabrDe4XJo0
Extra credits
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/3080-Games-You-Might-Not-Have-Tried-or-Heard-Of
I bought this off steam during cheap xmas deals along with other developer packs as it looked pretty good, a space sim where you can wage war do mission build empires and factories and its REALLY in depth as you can go from builing an giant corperation to waging war against factions and boarding ships, it sadly has a learning curve the size of a skyscraper but that can also work in its favour as you will find new ways to do things and are always learning what really amazed me was the community and how big it was for a relatively small company best £10 i spent in my life and you can spect me to be buying the next game X rebirth
while i do agree that DLC is ruining the gaming experience like but if done well it enhances it so much Shivering isles is a good example of this while the other addons were good they didnt expand much of the game in oblivion.
Now that gaming is close to hitting the graphics limit more companies should be using that funding for other aspects of the game eg. Story asthetics mehanics immersion
this problem isnt only affecting the gaming Intustry but more of the whole entertainment industry Anime Gaming Movie Music all of them are slowly stagnating but there will always be smaller companies that are willing to take risks that make the next leap in innovation while big companies try to make safe games
Interesting links
X Rebirth Trailer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LabrDe4XJo0
Extra credits
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/3080-Games-You-Might-Not-Have-Tried-or-Heard-Of
Actually the Computer Gaming Industry has grown in the past few years. Last year it grew nine percent and this year it's supposed to grow another 6.
This isn't a decline. It's a stagnation, for the most part, with its brown FPS trend.
Also, people DO care about the more original games. Portal 2, Terraria, and LA Noire are all in the top 5 of each console's "Top Games" list here on this site, though shooters including Blops are there too.
If anything, gaming is becoming a big-time art form, with movements and groundbreaking works.
Also, people DO care about the more original games. Portal 2, Terraria, and LA Noire are all in the top 5 of each console's "Top Games" list here on this site, though shooters including Blops are there too.
If anything, gaming is becoming a big-time art form, with movements and groundbreaking works.
I dont think you guys played Vanquish. That game is amazing and unique, if you havent played this game
Definitely agree here.Gigatoast said:
This whole "the world isn't going my way and thus it's the Rapture/Apocalypse" attitude is getting tiresome. (It's also not very original nor innovative. Irony, irony.)
True, we as gamers tend to reject innovations completely if they're not perfect the first time around, and that's something we need to stop doing and I think we are starting to. However, as Lionhead Studios proved you can't innovate just for the sake of innovating.
Some features in games become standards for a reason, because they are useful. That's why they were so innovative! It because they could be applied to other games as well and be reused. What good is an innovation if it isn't repeated and reused?
I agree with you sir, on alot of your points. Especially on the subject of following the leader. However, I disagree with the general idea of gaming ever going into decline as a medium. The only hinderance it's ever faced is recession. Money troubles. That is all. get beyond that and it is still the fastest growing medium, arguably the most entertaining and the industry is still growing in spite of our recent money issues globally. I say, dont be so pessimistic. Even though multitudes of billions of dollars get spent on crap, brown and grey boring homogenous pat for the masses, there wil lalways be people out there with creative spirit. The boring cash cows are just there to make money...That is all. They dont want to think outside the box or push boundaries. Because that's not cost effective and/or time well spent on the overall project. I think the heart and soul of the gaming industry relies heavily with its future on indie games. Best example obviously at the moment is minecraft. Just try to keep faith in humanity having some spark of creative spirit. Not all game developers have a secret-yet-obvious yearning for big burly men in a bland setting....just most of them.
Hahahahahaha!
Oh wait, you're serious. Let me laugh harder, then.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
~tom</3
Oh wait, you're serious. Let me laugh harder, then.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
~tom</3
Gaming is changing. Not dying, just changing.
The old guard have moved on, from PCs to consoles, chasing the elusive prey of Market Share and Target Audience. They are eaten alive by the development costs and the perilous market where one subpar production can kill you. I would guess that less than ten percent of the developers of the last ten years remain in any functional form, and while new developers will always take their place, this rapid lifecycle is something that any developer/publisher worth their salt will attempt to escape. So gaming is changing.
The PC, abandoned by its stalwarts, has grown a new crop of promising young developers - unfettered by the needs of industry, unconfined by the straitjacket of cliche and tradition, and bursting with new, exciting ideas. The indie of today is the Rockstar, the Bethesda of tomorrow. We are in the third or fourth year of this cycle, and in ten years a new cycle will begin, as it did in the '90s; as it did just a few years back. So gaming is changing, as it always has. As it always will.
The consoles are falling behind, their five-year cycle nearing its end once again, their graphical capabilities long since surpassed by the PC. Murmurs of a new generation of better-looking games are once again fluttering amongst the more ardent fans in the trade shows and forums. But the last generation has proven so divisive, so deadly with its orders-of-magnitude increase in expense that the industry may well diverge from its traditional course - expand outwards rather than upwards. We may well be on the cusp of the final generation - or at least, the final generation where the mantra is "prettier graphics!" I don't expect this change to come now - we will have one final run of better-looking games on higher-cost systems to spur the sales of the next generations of nVidia and AMD graphics cards - but gaming is changing, maturing, increasing its reach and breadth rather than vainly leaping for the next graphical milestone; and as movies reached their plateau many years ago, so will games.
But gaming is not dying. As long as the market exists - and it does, my friends, in ever-increasing numbers of casual gamers and hardcore gamers and Call of Duty players and sports aficionados and Chinese WoW players and PC strategy grognards and people who think they aren't gamers even though they log onto Farmville every evening to harvest tomatoes - while there are still people to play, games will remain in all their many-faceted glory. You have my word.
The old guard have moved on, from PCs to consoles, chasing the elusive prey of Market Share and Target Audience. They are eaten alive by the development costs and the perilous market where one subpar production can kill you. I would guess that less than ten percent of the developers of the last ten years remain in any functional form, and while new developers will always take their place, this rapid lifecycle is something that any developer/publisher worth their salt will attempt to escape. So gaming is changing.
The PC, abandoned by its stalwarts, has grown a new crop of promising young developers - unfettered by the needs of industry, unconfined by the straitjacket of cliche and tradition, and bursting with new, exciting ideas. The indie of today is the Rockstar, the Bethesda of tomorrow. We are in the third or fourth year of this cycle, and in ten years a new cycle will begin, as it did in the '90s; as it did just a few years back. So gaming is changing, as it always has. As it always will.
The consoles are falling behind, their five-year cycle nearing its end once again, their graphical capabilities long since surpassed by the PC. Murmurs of a new generation of better-looking games are once again fluttering amongst the more ardent fans in the trade shows and forums. But the last generation has proven so divisive, so deadly with its orders-of-magnitude increase in expense that the industry may well diverge from its traditional course - expand outwards rather than upwards. We may well be on the cusp of the final generation - or at least, the final generation where the mantra is "prettier graphics!" I don't expect this change to come now - we will have one final run of better-looking games on higher-cost systems to spur the sales of the next generations of nVidia and AMD graphics cards - but gaming is changing, maturing, increasing its reach and breadth rather than vainly leaping for the next graphical milestone; and as movies reached their plateau many years ago, so will games.
But gaming is not dying. As long as the market exists - and it does, my friends, in ever-increasing numbers of casual gamers and hardcore gamers and Call of Duty players and sports aficionados and Chinese WoW players and PC strategy grognards and people who think they aren't gamers even though they log onto Farmville every evening to harvest tomatoes - while there are still people to play, games will remain in all their many-faceted glory. You have my word.