I actually especially dug the return of Eva, and the fact that she surrogated for Les Enfants Terribles. She was the ideal person for the job and I really liked that touch even if her scene was a bit... pretentious? I dunno. But I?m a fan of Meryl, Naomi, Mei, and even Rose so I don?t see the problem there. It just makes sense - they?re a part of Snakes ?crew? like Michael Madsen, Harvey Keitel, and Uma Thurman are to Q Tarantino.
I'm critical of Eva returning because it reinforces how MGS4 seemed so desperate to tie itself to MGS3 with the whole revelation of the Patriots.
I guess I'm not exactly critical of Meryl, Naomi, and Mei returning, only how they were handled. I didn't feel like they were the characters from the first game (which can be good and bad depending how you see it). Because I agree that they important to Snake.
Meryl became a Snake wannabe
Naomi became overly tragic and then became attached
Mei's cameo was cute actually, I just wish they had done more with it.
I have no problem with Rose though, like I said before, just what they did with Raiden's story arc.
But Big Boss yeah. His revival was a pretty weak twist that pushed it a little too far. He needed to be dead to give the story a little cohesion and substance. That and old plots are subtly undermined. You didn?t mention Psycho Mantis?s ghostly return? I gotta say that was rather eye-rolling and didn?t contribute jack to anything *at all.* I?d say that was the worst, but hey, one of the most popular bosses in VG history ? gotta have him somewhere.
Yeah, I think the Big Boss thing and the undermined plots would have to be my biggest complaint.
I'll be honest, I actually forgot about Psycho Mantis's cameo. That pretty much speaks for itself. It was worthless.
WhiteFangofWar said:
One interesting debate I got into once was the prowess of the Shagohod in MGS3 compared to the Metal Gears that came after it. While Granin and most of the people I talked to considered the Metal Gears superior, after seeing the Shagohod in action I wasn't sure. It was considerably faster than any Gear in the series, even the Gekkos, and was able to function fine as a war vehicle to defend itself even after losing the nuke-launching components in the rear half.
Someone then told me that the Metal Gears, being bipedal instead of treaded, have better mobility on rough terrain and could always dodge incoming nukes as well as fire back from anywhere in the world, but I still wasn't convinced; if you got a warning it would be easy for either one to get out of the way, and again the Shagohod can do it faster. A small flat stretch of land isn't exactly rare even in countries without roads, and good luck lifting your average Metal Gear with helicopters as was done with the Shagohod. So which do you consider the superior nuclear death-mobile?
I like Rex because I believe it has most potential as a futuristic military weapon that does not need to rely on it's nuclear power to be a threat. The rail gun is a real favorite of mine.
Shagohod works as a modern military weapon.
Ray has speed but lacks the firepower (though the water canon would be useful in many operations).
However, Rex's radome would definitely need to be amended in future productions of it, that was the biggest weakness that any Metal Gear has ever had.
darkfox85 said:
Again, another bad moment and I agree. We know the exoskeleton is very tough but... stopping an Arsenal Gear? Come oooon! But I say the moment was dumb, not the whole game. I still rate 4 higher than 2 and I really like 2.
OT: as much as I love the shit out of the mainstream ones (still trying to properly play Metal Gear and Metal Gear 2, since my Subsistence disk died)
I personally think Ghost Babel was amazing, despite that I never beat it because I needed the monies and thus had to sell the GBC and the game
say, are the PSP ones available to play on PS3? no $ to buy a PSP =P
Babel was a surprisingly good GB adaptation of the series.
If you ever get a chance to try it, try Metal Gear Acid. It took me a loooong while to figure out its story.
darkfox85 said:
NameIsRobertPaulson said:
I watched my friend beat MGS4. I thought the fights against the B&B Corp were awesome (and depressing), and the Raiden vs Vamp final duel was wicked as hell.
The B&Bs were interesting characters. I kinda wish they had more personality, but all the fights were good fun and I thought their abilities and the stories of PTSD were all interesting.
Again, I'm critical of the B&Bs. They had none of the intrigue of the previous boss groups (the lack of personality you mentioned), and their boss battles were uncreative, and it became rather formulaic when Drebin called you up to give exposition every goddamn time.
Asthetically, their designs were very nice though, I liked their battle-suits.
darkfox85 said:
NameIsRobertPaulson said:
But my favorite moment of all was Johnny and Meryl's moment during the final assault. I want my GF to propose like that. IT WAS AWESOME. Probably one of my 5 favorite moments in all of gaming.
Even with my cynical view of that scene as a huge cliche, it was one of the cliches that I enjoyed out of the whole thing.
ScrabbitRabbit said:
The main reason people don't like Twin Snakes, though, are the changes to the cutscenes. While still ridiculous, MGS 1 is definitely much more grounded. There's no kick-flipping off of rockets in that game.
Seriously, why did they have to do that? It's a blight on Twin Snakes' otherwise decent track record (the only other being that the game is extremely easy).
ScrabbitRabbit said:
Kingjackl said:
I am annoyed that the HD re-release scrapped some of the original MGS3s extra features like the secret theatre, the nightmare easter-egg and the boss rush.
MGS 3 is probably my favourite, and some of the best moments for me include climbing up the ladder while Snake Eater is being sung and fighting the Sorrow. Even though I still enjoyed MGS 4, I can't help but be reminded of this whenever somebody mentions:
Yeah I actually think MGS2 is my favorite....it's just the most memorable for me despite the setting, story board, character development in the other games. I feel like MGS4 was a mix of fan service, and scrapping the idea's/concepts from mgs2 and just replacing them with 'Nano Machines'.
Still interested in playing this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_Gear_2:_Solid_Snake sounds like it has a pretty good chunk of the lore in it, and does quite a bit given it's top down perspective.
Eva as a surrogate is no way ?desperate.? Someone bore the terrible children; might as well be her. It?s definitely one of the strongest reveals ? even if just to tie up that end of the mystery ? what happened to her after O.S.E. Not to mention her backstory easily brought her back into the fold (connection to philosophers, understanding The Boss, etc.)
Lovely Mixture said:
I guess I'm not exactly critical of Meryl, Naomi, and Mei returning, only how they were handled. I didn't feel like they were the characters from the first game (which can be good and bad depending how you see it). Because I agree that they important to Snake.
It has been almost a decade since Shadow Moses. Of course none of them are the same and it would be dreadful if they were as there?d be no development. I?m not sure how it can be a bad thing that they aren?t the same.
I don?t know what you mean by this, but it?s clear Meryl isn?t a Snake wannabe. She?s independent now. Even in her attitude she isn?t as close or as interested in Snake. She has her own crew now.
Lovely Mixture said:
Naomi became overly tragic and then became attached
Although what Naomi was doing isn?t exactly clear and I find this all rather frustrating, I enjoyed her dramatic tragedy. Even if it was a bit... ?huh?? at times. I don?t know what you mean by ?attached? though.
Lovely Mixture said:
WELL.....I DISAGREE. But I very much respect your willingness to have a reasonable discussion on this topic.
I'm critical of the B&Bs. They had none of the intrigue of the previous boss groups (the lack of personality you mentioned), and their boss battles were uncreative, and it became rather formulaic when Drebin called you up to give exposition every goddamn time. Asthetically, their designs were very nice though, I liked their battle-suits.
They had much more personality and backstory than the filler bosses from MGS3. I actually have *a lot* to say about this in view of the franchise as whole and how the villainous supporting characters were treated and why the first is the best. If the thread makes it to four pages I?ll talk about it. ?Cus I?m kind of a sad-act like that :-/
Eva as a surrogate is no way ?desperate.? Someone bore the terrible children; might as well be her. It?s definitely one of the strongest reveals ? even if just to tie up that end of the mystery ? what happened to her after O.S.E. Not to mention her backstory easily brought her back into the fold (connection to philosophers, understanding The Boss, etc.)
I didn't say her being a surrogate was desperate, I said that her physically coming back was, I felt it cheapened her role. She didn't need to be a badass old resistance fighter, the memory of her being in MGS3 was enough for that.
I'll specify that the surrogate thing was fine.
Her being one of the Patriots was fine, but I already disliked how they did the Patriots revelation.
darkfox85 said:
It has been almost a decade since Shadow Moses. Of course none of them are the same and it would be dreadful if they were as there?d be no development. I?m not sure how it can be a bad thing that they aren?t the same.
That's what I'm saying, you can argue that it has been ten years. But for the idea that you're bringing back all these old
darkfox85 said:
I don?t know what you mean by this, but it?s clear Meryl isn?t a Snake wannabe. She?s independent now. Even in her attitude she isn?t as close or as interested in Snake. She has her own crew now.
"Snake Wannabe" was a bad way to put it. I'm saying that she became like Snake: overly cynical, anti-social, and macho-tough. In contrast, her previous personality was a lot more interesting.
darkfox85 said:
Although what Naomi was doing isn?t exactly clear and I find this all rather frustrating, I enjoyed her dramatic tragedy. Even if it was a bit... ?huh?? at times. I don?t know what you mean by ?attached? though.
Ignore the "attached" bit. It was a canceled thought that I forgot to remove. What do you find frustrating?
In any case, why did you like her drama? To me it came off as pointless and uninteresting.
She's angry at Snake but still trying to help him, and then she falls in love with Otacon in under 30 minutes, then she betrays them except not really, then she reveals she has cancer and kills herself for no reason, and then leaves them with a message that she could have easily told them before-hand.
Just acting silly and showing how there's not real way to argue differing opinions. But I figured I should do it in an extravagant way.
darkfox85 said:
They had much more personality and backstory than the filler bosses from MGS3. I actually have *a lot* to say about this in view of the franchise as whole and how the villainous supporting characters were treated and why the first is the best. If the thread makes it to four pages I?ll talk about it. ?Cus I?m kind of a sad-act like that :-/
A number of factors actually got me in to this series lately. Firstly, because I really enjoyed Metal Gear Rising, and secondly because of the fact that the HD versions were on sale on XBL not long ago. MGR got me in to the setting and themes of the games, so I decided to buy the first three.
So far in MGS1 I've made it up to Revolver Ocelot, and I'm pretty screwed. As it is I have no rations left and almost no health. Two hits kills me. Severely dated controls don't help the matter either. Can anyone help me out? Or would it be better to just start over? I actually tried that once, but I rushed through and just ended up getting killed at the gunfight with Meryl in the holding cell area. Not really too keen on trying that again any time soon.
I didn't say her being a surrogate was desperate, I said that her physically coming back was, I felt it cheapened her role. She didn't need to be a badass old resistance fighter, the memory of her being in MGS3 was enough for that. I'll specify that the surrogate thing was fine. Her being one of the Patriots was fine, but I already disliked how they did the Patriots revelation.
I can respect not wanting a role cheapened. It kind of reminds me of the maxim ?killed the goose that laid the golden egg.? As for the Patriots, I agree. It does tie it all together a little too conveniently. A few corners were cut and some plot threads left dangling. It?s a mess alright.
Lovely Mixture said:
That's what I'm saying, you can argue that it has been ten years. But for the idea that you're bringing back all these old
... I think you got cut off there. Mix! What?s wrong? Mix?! MIIIXXXXX!!!
Lovely Mixture said:
?Snake Wannabe" was a bad way to put it. I'm saying that she became like Snake: overly cynical, anti-social, and macho-tough. In contrast, her previous personality was a lot more interesting.
Ah I getcha now. It seems like a nature evolution to me. All grown up and whatnot. Perhaps it is a bit ?stock? but we see the growth so I give it a slide.
She's angry at Snake but still trying to help him, and then she falls in love with Otacon in under 30 minutes, then she betrays them except not really, then she reveals she has cancer and kills herself for no reason, and then leaves them with a message that she could have easily told them before-hand.
Haha. I think that sums it up. At one point Snake even says: ?whose side was she on anyway?? My thoughts exactly! I can understand people being alienated by this mess. Despite her motivations being far beyond my understanding, as a character I still liked her. Her knowledge of her being doomed, the feeling of doom. Almost like the universes chew toy. A symbol of sacrifice and degeneration ? even if I?m still not sure I quite understand some of it.
Lovely Mixture said:
[The B&Bs had] More backstory than the Cobras? Yes. More personality than the Cobras? No, and I'll even admit that the Cobras had little personality to begin with. The Cobras were named after emotions, but the B&Bs could literally only be described by their emotions, and emotions do not equate to personality. I will agree that MGS1 had the best in that regard.
I really gotta break this habit of either forgetting to erase ideas or forgetting to finish them.
The full sentence should read: "But for the idea that you're bringing back all these old characters and yet not allowing us to identify them (with features other than their faces) seems a bit awkward. But I understand that this might come off as a very particular complaint."
darkfox85 said:
Ah I getcha now. It seems like a nature evolution to me. All grown up and whatnot. Perhaps it is a bit ?stock? but we see the growth so I give it a slide.
That's a valid point, you can see it as character growth. I guess it just didn't work for me, or maybe I would have been able to forgive it if at least Snake and Raiden had followed their development.
darkfox85 said:
Fair enough. I'll talk about the bosses for the four games if I can be arsed to type it out later.
There is nothing on MGS5. Not even a 2 minutes video, it's officially confirmed that MGS: GZ is the prologue to MGSV. Which is in turn, a sequel to Peace Walker. Taking a week-10 days after.
Isn't it heavily suspected that that phantom pain mgs 5? I head a bunch of articles point by point breaking down the whole trailer explaining how it is mgs 5
Lol, The Twin Snakes is one of the best parodies like...ever.
They actually approached Kojima with a faithful version, but he demanded them to do it in their over the top style.
All in all, if you didn't play MGS1, I guess it isn't TOO bad, but if you did, I guess t could be a bit of an annoyance.
I started the mgs series on twin snakes myself and people keep saying how bad it is so I am tempted to play the original but is it still playable after having played the same game with wayyyyy better graphics and wayyyy better controls? I am actually curious not being sarcastic or anything I just can't see how the original can be so much better I keep imagining everyone just exaggerates?
It isn't really bad. It's just MUCH more over the top. MGS1 also is much harder/sneakier, so it's for you if you dig that.
Me personally, I simply cannot go to classic MGS controls. Shooting with square, bleh...
While I still appreciate Kojima's creativity and the fun little 'jokes and easter eggs' he puts in his games, most of my memories of MGS aren't that good. First thing that comes to mind are the unnecessary long (yes yes I know) cutscenes. Many have responded to me complaining about this with "You can skip them if you don't like it!" This, is fucking BULLSHIT. Why should I have to miss out on context while it's clearly the developer's job to make me not want to skip them!
And then there's the dreadful 'action' that rears it's ugly head every now and then. I'm perfectly fine with some tacked on mandatory action sequences if it helps the game itself, but Mr Kojima just shoots himself in the foot by making the mechanics suitable for stealth, that just feel very stiff and unnatural during shoot outs and bossfights (that really have no place in a stealth 'm up anyway)
Despite the lengthy cutscenes full of blah di blah, and the combat being as frustrating as trying to play Angry Birds with your elbows, I still played MGS on the PSone (and later the remake on the NGC) all the way through, because the characters are well rounded, and I have soft spot for stealth.
And I could never forget that moment when I found out that "the frequency is on the back of the package" meant that it was on the back of the game box, especially because this was after I had found frequency, by trying out every one on my codec.
While I still appreciate Kojima's creativity and the fun little 'jokes and easter eggs' he puts in his games, most of my memories of MGS aren't that good. First thing that comes to mind are the unnecessary long (yes yes I know) cutscenes. Many have responded to me complaining about this with "You can skip them if you don't like it!" This, is fucking BULLSHIT. Why should I have to miss out on context while it's clearly the developer's job to make me not want to skip them!
And then there's the dreadful 'action' that rears it's ugly head every now and then. I'm perfectly fine with some tacked on mandatory action sequences if it helps the game itself, but Mr Kojima just shoots himself in the foot by making the mechanics suitable for stealth, that just feel very stiff and unnatural during shoot outs and bossfights (that really have no place in a stealth 'm up anyway)
Despite the lengthy cutscenes full of blah di blah, and the combat being as frustrating as trying to play Angry Birds with your elbows, I still played MGS on the PSone (and later the remake on the NGC) all the way through, because the characters are well rounded, and I have soft spot for stealth.
And I could never forget that moment when I found out that "the frequency is on the back of the package" meant that it was on the back of the game box, especially because this was after I had found frequency, by trying out every one on my codec.
\ The games progress and develop through cutscenes, the games have deep and complex stories, and with them come long cutscenes. Kojima has always had a thing for movies/films, and that's what MGS is really, a playable movie.
And yeah, Kojima does that alot. It sucked before, since the shooting with square was ungodly bad, but with MGS4's new control scheme, it's now better.
So far in MGS1 I've made it up to Revolver Ocelot, and I'm pretty screwed. As it is I have no rations left and almost no health. Two hits kills me. Severely dated controls don't help the matter either. Can anyone help me out? Or would it be better to just start over?
Hi there! That sounds like a pretty rough spot right there. Ocelot can be tricky with ye olde controls for a first timer. I don?t want to recommend starting again because that?d be a pain in the arse to go through all that again, but it sounds like you?re in a tight spot. Try to stock up on rations before you go and see him.
Scrustle said:
I actually tried that once, but I rushed through and just ended up getting killed at the gunfight with Meryl in the holding cell area. Not really too keen on trying that again any time soon.
I always looked at the whole 'nanomachines' stuff as trying to re-capture a lost age in the Metal Gear Universe (MGU). It's gone from a world where soldiers had superpowers and ghosts were in the military (I know that the sorrow wasn't TECHNICALLY in the military...but hey.) People like that just weren't around anymore with Mantis being the last of his kind so they had to find some way to capture that again. So they build small machines that can live in peoples blood to give folks those abilities and the patriots, seeing the potential for control, twist what would be otherwise useful tech into something perverse and invasive.
Even the final boss in Rising felt this way to me. Armstrong was older,probably was born in the time when these super-powered people were dieing out and felt the blow to morale in the country when it happened. Outwardly he might have changed his views but somewhere inside it remained with him. When the patriots system went offline and information started flowing again and he found out about it all he decided to make himself a superman from the old days and use that, along with his silver tongue and idealism, to relight the fires of those days.But since power corrupts he was taken in by it and lost his mind. This would also explain Metal Gear Excellus being put into production again. More 'old days' stuff.
Mind you all of this has to be taken in that the MGU doesn't follow the same rules as ours but just borrows some of our history. Think of the Parallel worlds theory where in this world superman can't exist and a nanomachine isn't a thing (yet). Further I found the use of nano's not that hard to believe if you think that for the past god knows how long information has been controlled at extreme levels so some people, while knowing about nanomachines, wouldn't know that they were capable of bringing someone 'back from the dead' Ala Vamp or
hardening a layer of skin in response to pressure Ala Armstrong (and let's face it, probably Vamp although subdermally)
.
As for the plotlines that were dropped or just glazed over in MGS4...was there ever any doubt we would be getting more games that could fill us in on things? I can't wait for Kojima to start explaining more of this stuff.
I loved MGS4. But I think the reason is that I played all four MGS games back-to-back without replaying any of them before tackling MGS4. It seems to me like most of the people who hate MGS4 are those who spent years and years with theories and their own ideas of characters' post-MGS2 arcs and didn't appreciate having it all explained with "nanomachines" repeated ad nauseam.
But for me, the plot, seeing all the characters again, was all completely freaking awesome. What I didn't like--what makes it rank below Snake Eater for me--is that the playground is too small for the number of skills you are given. After the first chapter and a half (of five), most of your CQC becomes beyond useless; you can't even play around with it because all the enemies are robots, or you're in a rail-shooter section, or you're in a cutscene. I defend MGS cutscenes to the death because I like having a respite/reward for completing a difficult boss fight or stealth section, but MGS4 really did go overboard.
MGS3 (Sustenance edition, duh) is still the greatest game I've ever played. Fantastic characters, stellar plot, great CODEC, great Easter eggs, great stealth gameplay, and, most of all, AMAZING boss fights, The End, The Sorrow and The Boss in particular. Add on the gut-wrenching ending and I've never played anything else like it. It's a game I insist everyone must play.
Whoa, do you have a source on this? It's Kojima, so I wouldn't doubt if it was the truth.
King Aragorn said:
\ The games progress and develop through cutscenes, the games have deep and complex stories, and with them come long cutscenes. Kojima has always had a thing for movies/films, and that's what MGS is really, a playable movie.
Well before MGS4 at least, I'd say it bridged the gap between game and movie quite well.
King Aragorn said:
And yeah, Kojima does that alot. It sucked before, since the shooting with square was ungodly bad, but with MGS4's new control scheme, it's now better.
For those who got used to the square button format, things were awkward.
Not to mention the whole "needing to press triangle to hug the wall" thing, I couldn't get used to that.
RedFox742 said:
I loved MGS4. But I think the reason is that I played all four MGS games back-to-back without replaying any of them before tackling MGS4. It seems to me like most of the people who hate MGS4 are those who spent years and years with theories and their own ideas of characters' post-MGS2 arcs and didn't appreciate having it all explained with "nanomachines" repeated ad nauseam.
I don't know if you've been reading my posts (not to say that you should have been). But essentially you are correct.
On the characters.
MGS2 ends with:
-Raiden finding a new sense of purpose with Rose.
-with Snake and Otacon working forward with their ideals.
MGS4 has with:
-Snake who is somehow WORSE than how he was in the beginning of MGS1.
-with Otacon still feeling immense guilt.
-with Raiden still being super depressed about his past.
And ten years does not justify that shit to me.
Nanomachines were magic pixie dust that took all speculation out of everything. Not to mention clashing with the idea of war being unreal that had been set-up in the first three games.
FOXHOUND Unit:
How the fuck does Vulcan Raven control Ravens? Does his past as a shaman allow him mystical powers? Or is he a master of psychological warefare to make Snake THINK he is controlling the Ravens? Does Wolf train the wolves or do they follow her because she herself is a "lone wolf?" The only confirmed supernatural thing is that Psycho Mantis is true psychic, the effects of his powers are seen in his appearance.
DEAD CELL:
How the fuck does Vamp have all these super powers? Is he a vampire? Or perhaps he's such a good soldier that we're only seeing an interpretation of his abilities as supernatural. Did Fortune really have the luck she spoke of? Or was it Ocelot's EM device the whole time?
Cobra Unit: essentially the same in regards to all of them except the Sorrow who is also apparently a true psychic. When the Fury died....Did his spirit chase after Snake? Or was Snake just hallucinating? Were the End the the Fear just really good survivalists? Was the Pain just an absurd bee-keeper?
MGS4: no lol, Vamp was filled with nanomachines the whole time. Also his whole relationship with now-dead Fortune? Nah he doesn't care about just wants to fight Raiden. B&B unit is just battle suits and Nanomachines.
I gotta say, I love how over-the-top ridiculous the MGS series is. It's just entertaining to see all the crazy pseudo-supernatural powers, insanely designed characters, soap opera-style melodrama, ridiculously convoluted plot twists, and constant fourth wall breaking. Once you get into the MGS world you just fall in love with it despite (or possibly because) how silly it all is.
I recently played through the entire series in about two weeks (even the nes ones included with the HD collection) and I have to say that Raiden is still my favorite character. Yeah he gets super silly in parts of MGR, but the whole bit about everything happening in MGS2 because he is being trained by the Patriots is pretty cool. His eternal struggle with VAMP is pretty fun to watch unfold, even though you don't get to watch the last bit unfold. Stupid suicide gekkos.
Give MGS4 this much: It promised to explain everything, and it did. You may not like the explanations, but at least it didn't pull a "Lost."
I think the jump from MGS4's ending to MGR is a much more painful lurch in Raiden's character than the MGS2 to MGS4, because in MGS4 it's explained in depth how the nightmares returned to plague him now that he'd been forced to recall his past. But his entire arc in MGS4 is about SHEDDING all of that, and in the end he pledges, quote, "I'm done fighting." So saying "and then the nightmares returned AGAIN" and bringing him back to the battlefield kind of pisses me off and really badly damages the MGS4 ending for me. Made worse is that I know the game was originally meant to be between MGS2 and MGS4, which would have been SO MUCH BETTER, because that's where the real void was in Raiden's arc. But that wouldn't have left open the possibility for sequels and more money, so Platinum demanded open-endedness.
In other words, I can understand how some people feel about MGS4 because it's the same way I feel about MGR (also with the whole thing being completely dumbed down.) But that won't stop me from loving MGS4. <3
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