Japans death row makes prisoners go insane

[iron codpiece]

Spoiler: holy text wall batman

You are all one bad mistake, one crazy situation, one wrong place wrong time, one passionate moment away from a life behind bars.

Yeah, but my mistake is leaving my soda on the hood roof of my car, or swearing infront of my grandmother.

NOT killing somebody.
I think you need a better understanding of REAL LIFE.

What? Dude, are you seriously saying you've NEVER done anything illegal? I didn't say death row I said jail. You've never forgot to put your insurance in your car? You've never speeded? You never were hanging out in the parking lot of a grocery store after it closed? You've never started yelling at your girlfriend? I've seen people come to jail for less. Nothing? You've never done ANYTHING illegal? Bull.

Are you honestly comparing loitering in a parking lot to murder?
wow.

No, I am not making a comparison at all and that's the point. Your charges don't matter once you're in the system.

I am saying these are all things you can be incarcerated for and when you're in the system you get treated the same regardless of what security level you're at.

How would you feel if you were in jail for murder. Let's say you yelled at grandma and grandpa said "get out of my house" he's shoving you out the door you say "No! I want to get my shit first" You finally shove your way past him. Grandpa is old and frail when you shoved him he hit his head on the coat rack by the door pushing him into a stroke which killed him. Does that make you an evil person deserving of this torture? Very few murders are in the first degree most are situational. (we actually had a case very similar to that in this town)

The only point of security levels within jails is to keep the more dangerous away from the less dangerous. Everyone is treated the same. Extra punishments in jail/prison/death row like less yard time are because you misbehave in the correctional facility. If you take everything away right off the bat your inmate control goes down and any chance of behavioral improvement is gone because you have nothing else to take away.

Real Life? Think beyond your own life experience, try to empathize and understand people's situations. Think about the guy who can't make the rent and can't get a job because he got pinched once before so he resorts to drastic measures. Maybe if someone could give him a shot at a job he'd shift his focus. Think about the guy who's cousins get him hooked to meth now he needs to burglarize to keep up his habit. If he goes to jail for a while and moves out of town when he gets out he can start a new life.
No, I'm not saying these are good people. I'm not saying they are even the normal criminal. They're still people though.

You act as if killing someone is a common, easily made mistake. To kill someone, you have to work at it. there is no accidental "murder" there are "accidents" then there is "murder" there is no inbetween.
"Sure I beat the hell out of him, but I didn't want to kill him" that seems to happen a lot, but you know what? YOU killed the guy, its your FAULT, i dont give a fuck if you only wanted to hurt him, dude is dead and your ass belongs in jail.

Its simple, people have hard times in their lives, thats no excuse to do something like that. because once you steal from someone else, so you cant get ahead, your an instant scumbag, and all the points in the argument go out the window.

My best friend lived in his truck for a month, and you know what? He worked EVERY day legitimately until he could get out of his truck, and into an apartment. He didn't steal from anyone, he never mugged anyone. If he can, other people can. Theres no excuse for that kind of shit, period.

And if his truck got towed while he was at work?

He would walk like a normal functioning human?

what the hell is wrong with you that you thing crime against another innocent person is justified, regardless of your own situation? Once you do that, any deserved sympathy is lost because it shows your willing to put someone in your position, so you dont have to be.

You said he lived in his truck. So than he would have to sleep on the streets and he would be... arrested for request to leave or trespass? Miss a few days at work while he waits for a bond hearing. A good man who works hard still can end up in jail.


What about Tookie Williams? He was guilty as hell. In prison he wrote books about being against gang activity and made PSAs in the LA area. Yeah he was still put to death and that was his punishment. That's fine. If he were in japans system NO good would come out of it. At least in our system he might have served as a warning to some kids somewhere.

And by your logic while I sat in jail and was about to be shipped off to prison I would've been executed. Why? I was falsely accused of rape. I owe ace_of_something my life. While he was OFF DUTY he found security tapes of the woman who accused me of this doing other things at the time of the alleged rape and all charges were dropped after a quick appeal. Thanks to people like you who see the world in black and white it took me a long fucking time to find a job again even though I was acquitted. The only reason I didn't live on the streets is because I was lucky enough to have a lot of friends who would take me in for a week at a time or so.

What about him? He is in jail for a damn reason, just because he suddenly thinks "drugs are bad, stay in school." you know why he suddenly changed? BECAUSE HE GOT CAUGHT. dont think for a second if he didn't, he would have changed. its all bullshit to save his own ass.

And you obviously didn't even read the argument. We are talking about people who have been PROVEN guilty, but try to say "oh it was an accident I didnt mean to" or people who commit crimes because they have a rough patch in life. your story is irrelevant.

I'm saying Tookie being executed was his punishment not being tortured. You keep missing Ace's point entirely. He was saying that once you're in jail it's a microcosm of the real world and that BEING LOCKED Up or EXECUTED is the punishment. That being tortured is too much and torturing the inmates give the guards no ability to control the inmates.

Please tell me what experience you've had with the system personally to make you have such a profound understanding of how it all works. I mean you're what 18? Obviously you know everything by now. I mean I did at 18 too.

edit: I was convicted I had an appeal.

 

[Mcface]

Spoiler: holy text wall batman

You are all one bad mistake, one crazy situation, one wrong place wrong time, one passionate moment away from a life behind bars.

Yeah, but my mistake is leaving my soda on the hood roof of my car, or swearing infront of my grandmother.

NOT killing somebody.
I think you need a better understanding of REAL LIFE.

What? Dude, are you seriously saying you've NEVER done anything illegal? I didn't say death row I said jail. You've never forgot to put your insurance in your car? You've never speeded? You never were hanging out in the parking lot of a grocery store after it closed? You've never started yelling at your girlfriend? I've seen people come to jail for less. Nothing? You've never done ANYTHING illegal? Bull.

Are you honestly comparing loitering in a parking lot to murder?
wow.

No, I am not making a comparison at all and that's the point. Your charges don't matter once you're in the system.

I am saying these are all things you can be incarcerated for and when you're in the system you get treated the same regardless of what security level you're at.

How would you feel if you were in jail for murder. Let's say you yelled at grandma and grandpa said "get out of my house" he's shoving you out the door you say "No! I want to get my shit first" You finally shove your way past him. Grandpa is old and frail when you shoved him he hit his head on the coat rack by the door pushing him into a stroke which killed him. Does that make you an evil person deserving of this torture? Very few murders are in the first degree most are situational. (we actually had a case very similar to that in this town)

The only point of security levels within jails is to keep the more dangerous away from the less dangerous. Everyone is treated the same. Extra punishments in jail/prison/death row like less yard time are because you misbehave in the correctional facility. If you take everything away right off the bat your inmate control goes down and any chance of behavioral improvement is gone because you have nothing else to take away.

Real Life? Think beyond your own life experience, try to empathize and understand people's situations. Think about the guy who can't make the rent and can't get a job because he got pinched once before so he resorts to drastic measures. Maybe if someone could give him a shot at a job he'd shift his focus. Think about the guy who's cousins get him hooked to meth now he needs to burglarize to keep up his habit. If he goes to jail for a while and moves out of town when he gets out he can start a new life.
No, I'm not saying these are good people. I'm not saying they are even the normal criminal. They're still people though.

You act as if killing someone is a common, easily made mistake. To kill someone, you have to work at it. there is no accidental "murder" there are "accidents" then there is "murder" there is no inbetween.
"Sure I beat the hell out of him, but I didn't want to kill him" that seems to happen a lot, but you know what? YOU killed the guy, its your FAULT, i dont give a fuck if you only wanted to hurt him, dude is dead and your ass belongs in jail.

Its simple, people have hard times in their lives, thats no excuse to do something like that. because once you steal from someone else, so you cant get ahead, your an instant scumbag, and all the points in the argument go out the window.

My best friend lived in his truck for a month, and you know what? He worked EVERY day legitimately until he could get out of his truck, and into an apartment. He didn't steal from anyone, he never mugged anyone. If he can, other people can. Theres no excuse for that kind of shit, period.

And if his truck got towed while he was at work?

He would walk like a normal functioning human?

what the hell is wrong with you that you thing crime against another innocent person is justified, regardless of your own situation? Once you do that, any deserved sympathy is lost because it shows your willing to put someone in your position, so you dont have to be.

You said he lived in his truck. So than he would have to sleep on the streets and he would be... arrested for request to leave or trespass? Miss a few days at work while he waits for a bond hearing. A good man who works hard still can end up in jail.


What about Tookie Williams? He was guilty as hell. In prison he wrote books about being against gang activity and made PSAs in the LA area. Yeah he was still put to death and that was his punishment. That's fine. If he were in japans system NO good would come out of it. At least in our system he might have served as a warning to some kids somewhere.

And by your logic while I sat in jail and was about to be shipped off to prison I would've been executed. Why? I was falsely accused of rape. I owe ace_of_something my life. While he was OFF DUTY he found security tapes of the woman who accused me of this doing other things at the time of the alleged rape and all charges were dropped after a quick appeal. Thanks to people like you who see the world in black and white it took me a long fucking time to find a job again even though I was acquitted. The only reason I didn't live on the streets is because I was lucky enough to have a lot of friends who would take me in for a week at a time or so.

What about him? He is in jail for a damn reason, just because he suddenly thinks "drugs are bad, stay in school." you know why he suddenly changed? BECAUSE HE GOT CAUGHT. dont think for a second if he didn't, he would have changed. its all bullshit to save his own ass.

And you obviously didn't even read the argument. We are talking about people who have been PROVEN guilty, but try to say "oh it was an accident I didnt mean to" or people who commit crimes because they have a rough patch in life. your story is irrelevant.

I'm saying Tookie being executed was his punishment not being tortured. You keep missing Ace's point entirely. He was saying that once you're in jail it's a microcosm of the real world and that BEING LOCKED Up or EXECUTED is the punishment. That being tortured is too much and torturing the inmates give the guards no ability to control the inmates.

Please tell me what experience you've had with the system personally to make you have such a profound understanding of how it all works. I mean you're what 18? Obviously you know everything by now. I mean I did at 18 too.

Hell, I knew from age 5 if you fuck up, you get thrown in prision.
and thats NOT what he said, he was saying death penalty and life in prision is wrong, because "accidents can happen"

 

[ace_of_something]

Hell, I knew from age 5 if you fuck up, you get thrown in prision.
and thats NOT what he said, he was saying death penalty and life in prision is wrong, because "accidents can happen"

Ummm what? I never said the death penalty or life in prison is wrong. I mean I'm against capital punishment but I didn't say that. My original point was that being imprisoned is the punishment and the Japanese were being excessive. Then we... or at least I started talking about something else. I think I got so far off topic you were getting confused. I think we have a miscommunication here. My bad. I wholeheartedly respect your opinion even if I can't agree with it. I just think that not allowing someone to move for 20 years is a bit much. If they're going to kill them just do it don't torture them.

There that's my point more simplified sorry about getting off base and overly verbose I do that sometimes.

(side note: is spell check is to be believed miscommunication isn't a word)

 

[Bat Vader]

While I do agree with the 99% conviction rate and how prisions are actually making prisoners feel like prisoners, surely keeping death row inmates for 10's of years is babaric? Also expenisve to keep alive, what a waste of money!

That's basically what China does, they shoot the fucker in the head, then send the bullet casing, along with a bill for the bullet, to their family. It's a good system.

I like this idea so much it hurts
Seriously why isn't that used for everywhere that uses the death sentance?

It is wrong to bill the family of the executed man. If they had nothing to do with the crime besides being of the same family they should not be billed.

 

[HyenaThePirate]

I'd be curious to know what the violent crime and murder rate in Japan actually is comparatively per capita to a western country with no death penalty.

 

[Bat Vader]

The sad thing is some of those people being treated like that are innocent. They don't deserve that.

 

[A random person]

Yay, a thread about the death penalty and Japan! This is certainly going to be nice and pleasant.

But because I want to just say something and leave, I'll just quote someone 'cause I'm lazy:

Yeah well, I think the whole concept of death penalty is barbaric and totally not something that belongs in the 21st century, so yeah...

 

[vfaulkon]

Nawww poor death row inmates aren't being treated properly. They would have a right to complain were these people not some of the most treacherous people on earth.

Although to be honest they shouldn't be kept around for decades, atleast execute them sooner. Saves money and time for the tax payer/prison system/government

What if they're innocent? They usually wait 10-20 years or so before execution, in case new evidence appears, to make sure they're the right person.

I'd like to see the stats on how many of these death sentences are successfully reversed. Though my knowledge on the inner workings of the legal system is sorely lacking, I seriously wonder how many of these appeals are even considered.

Personally I've no problem with the death penalty - after all, rehabilitation only works if the person wants to change, which in this case is unlikely - but if a fair number of appeals turn up new, decriminating evidence, I can't really argue against delaying the process a few years. The time lapse could be lessened, but that's more bureaucratic red tape than any moral dilemma.

Now, if the person is guilty without a doubt, I'm definitely for taking the convicted behind the courtroom and cappin' him or her execution style. It sounds harsh, but compared to years, even decades sitting isolated in a cell just waiting for death, it's infinitely favorable.

For those who are against the death sentence as a principle, though, you're not completely wrong either. The death penalty is a philosophy that seems dated nowadays, especially with most normal, relatively innocent people on enough happy pills to make Keith Richards wobbly...er, more wobbly. I guess it ultimately comes down to how pragmatic a person is in regards to the big picture. Spare the convicted killer for years in the hopes that justice and truth may yet redeem him/her, regardless of expense, or just off the guy who likely won't get his/her appeal and spare everyone the time and money?

If you arrest 100 killers, who's more important: the 99 who are guilty, or the one who's innocent?

 

[stabnex]

Sounds like a prelude to a smash television show. And you know every last Japanese person would watch it religiously.

 

[Crystalgate]

This looks like a terrible idea. I'm not going to even argue the ethical aspects of it, but even just from a practical standpoint this seems like an idiotic system.

It makes no sense to treat anyone like that unless you are confident they are guilty. However, if you're confident they are guilty, you could execute them right away. The reason it takes such a long time to execute someone in America is because of a lack of confidence that the inmates actually are guilty. So, Japan must be more confident in their legal system (the other option is that they know a lot of innocents are being tortured,) but they still take a long time to execute someone.

The only reason left that I can think of is that the psychological torture is meant as part of the punishment. Problem is that jacking up the punishment does little to nothing in terms of crime prevention. The method of having a really harsh punishment to scare potential criminals has never been an effective strategy. You could argue that there must be at least a few people who reconsider committing murder after considering the risks of getting executed after first being driven mad, however, there's also going to be people who commits murder who otherwise wouldn't have done so. For example, once you reached the point where your crimes will earn you the harshest punishment execution, additional crimes cannot any longer earn you any harsher punishment.

I can think of other reasons, but I won't disclose them unless somebody asks me to. What I want to say however, is that the idea of "harsher punishment=less crimes" is oversimplified to the point of inaccuracy and in reality it isn't that easy.

Now, as has already been stated, this will make work more dangerous for the police. Guarding the inmates is more dangerous as will arresting murderers be. If you convince someone it's better to be dead than in prison, it's gonna be a hell lot harder to arrest that person. The practical reasons not to shoot at the pursuing police is now pretty much zero.

 

[ShavingCream]

I've seen enough to know that I've got hard time feeling even remotely sorry for a murderer. Personally, I too think it takes too long, but I also think it's too merciful and sterile and private to be a proper deterrent against violent crime. Think a killer is worried about a needle, a sharp quick jerk of the neck, or a quick and relatively painless bullet to the brain? If people were still drawn and quartered then they might have something to be afraid of when they consider putting a bullet into some poor 7-11 cashier's chest over $30 and a box of lottery tickets.

But, then again, the cashier got shot and died soon thereafter, not after 20-40 years of suffering. Just put that yourself in his shoes, What would you think fair waiting for the REST OF YOUR LIFE just for a one minute moment. I'm not saying that you have to agree with me, but not too much thought was put into that, IMHO, I'm also not saying that they need luxury suites, but they also don't need to be in a room, for 40 years, with noone to talk to, and not even knowing if your family is still alive, if your parents died, and the such

 

[quiet_samurai]

They should give the the option to committ Sepuku.

That would be neat.

 

[The Austin]

They were convicted to death, not torture.
Its wrong.
ITS WRONG!
or..
IT'S WRAWNG! (As cartman would say)

 

[Chrissyluky]

honestly its japan they take EVERYTHING to the extreme.

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

And you obviously didn't even read the argument. We are talking about people who have been PROVEN guilty, but try to say "oh it was an accident I didnt mean to" or people who commit crimes because they have a rough patch in life. your story is irrelevant.

"Proven guilty"?

Ever heard of court in front of a jury? Where they basically round up a couple of jury members and try to convince them that the defendant is guilty. Far from every case of convicts actually had SOLID PROOF of their guilt, sometimes all it takes is the prosecutor being persuasive enough, the defendants lawyer being enough of a hack and the defendant being enough of an asshole in general for the jury to simply put him or her away to jailtime. Not because the defendant was atually proven guilty but rather due tio other irrelevant circumstances.

You my friend have WAY to much faith in a legal system filled with flaws and faults, that's for sure...

 

[Dancingman]

Hmph, crazy Japan, crazy America, we both need to learn from those clever Chinese. It's rather simple really, shoot them in head, send the bill for the bullet to their family, take whatever organs they have that are viable and help shorten that long waiting list for transplants. No more letting people like that devil Charles Manson languish in prison, getting old and living well on the tax dollars of respectable citizens.

 

[The Rockerfly]

While I do agree with the 99% conviction rate and how prisions are actually making prisoners feel like prisoners, surely keeping death row inmates for 10's of years is babaric? Also expenisve to keep alive, what a waste of money!

That's basically what China does, they shoot the fucker in the head, then send the bullet casing, along with a bill for the bullet, to their family. It's a good system.

I like this idea so much it hurts
Seriously why isn't that used for everywhere that uses the death sentance?

It is wrong to bill the family of the executed man. If they had nothing to do with the crime besides being of the same family they should not be billed.

Hmm maybe you are right about that but the money for the bullet has to come from somewhere. Maybe it's so families know there child did something horrible? I mean I'm sure China's goverment could easily pay for the bullets

 

[Icehearted]

I've seen enough to know that I've got hard time feeling even remotely sorry for a murderer. Personally, I too think it takes too long, but I also think it's too merciful and sterile and private to be a proper deterrent against violent crime. Think a killer is worried about a needle, a sharp quick jerk of the neck, or a quick and relatively painless bullet to the brain? If people were still drawn and quartered then they might have something to be afraid of when they consider putting a bullet into some poor 7-11 cashier's chest over $30 and a box of lottery tickets.

But, then again, the cashier got shot and died soon thereafter, not after 20-40 years of suffering. Just put that yourself in his shoes, What would you think fair waiting for the REST OF YOUR LIFE just for a one minute moment. I'm not saying that you have to agree with me, but not too much thought was put into that, IMHO, I'm also not saying that they need luxury suites, but they also don't need to be in a room, for 40 years, with noone to talk to, and not even knowing if your family is still alive, if your parents died, and the such

I know all about isolation, though my experience wasn't longer than about 5 years, believe me I know what it can do, and that the damage can be permanent, but so can the damage of a killer's gun.

For the record, I'm against the death penalty (no, not a liberal either), but I believe that is kill we must, then let us do so with more purpose than revenge. Should we show mercy to the unmerciful? Ever faced a ruthless sociopath, they feel nothing, not remorse, not guilt, not a flutter of their heart at the sight of the misery they themselves create.

Again, I am against the Death Penalty, but if we must do this, then let us do it properly and for the right reasons.

 

[ShavingCream]

I've seen enough to know that I've got hard time feeling even remotely sorry for a murderer. Personally, I too think it takes too long, but I also think it's too merciful and sterile and private to be a proper deterrent against violent crime. Think a killer is worried about a needle, a sharp quick jerk of the neck, or a quick and relatively painless bullet to the brain? If people were still drawn and quartered then they might have something to be afraid of when they consider putting a bullet into some poor 7-11 cashier's chest over $30 and a box of lottery tickets.

But, then again, the cashier got shot and died soon thereafter, not after 20-40 years of suffering. Just put that yourself in his shoes, What would you think fair waiting for the REST OF YOUR LIFE just for a one minute moment. I'm not saying that you have to agree with me, but not too much thought was put into that, IMHO, I'm also not saying that they need luxury suites, but they also don't need to be in a room, for 40 years, with noone to talk to, and not even knowing if your family is still alive, if your parents died, and the such

I know all about isolation, though my experience wasn't longer than about 5 years, believe me I know what it can do, and that the damage can be permanent, but so can the damage of a killer's gun.

For the record, I'm against the death penalty (no, not a liberal either), but I believe that is kill we must, then let us do so with more purpose than revenge. Should we show mercy to the unmerciful? Ever faced a ruthless sociopath, they feel nothing, not remorse, not guilt, not a flutter of their heart at the sight of the misery they themselves create.

Again, I am against the Death Penalty, but if we must do this, then let us do it properly and for the right reasons.

sounds good, just seemed in the first post that you felt that they need to be tortured until they die, but still,if you show mercy to the merciless, it ends the cycle of hatred. If someone punches you, then you punch him back, and then he pulls a knife. I believe that showing mercy to the merciless could solve a sickening amount of problems. Not saying they should go free, just that they shouldn't be treated that way.

 

[benylor]

To quote the Smiths' I Know It's Over, possibly the most depressing song I've ever listened to,

"It's so easy to laugh, it's so easy to hate, it takes strength to be gentle and kind."

Trying to be "cool" and come up with inventive and cruel ways to kill people who you've convinced yourself deserve the 9th circle of Dante's Hell shows a distinct lack of empathy completely ignores some of the facts of the situation.

1. Innocent people (and, from a 99% conviction rate, it'd be lots of innocent people) are being tortured and killed.
2. Prison doesn't have to be at either extreme. Many here claim that it's either this, or internet access + TV access + etc. You would have to be a fool of biblical proportions to actually have convinced yourself of this. Strict and humane are not mutually exclusive.
3. Apart from anything else, it's a huge waste of money leaving people languishing in these cells. If the death penalty must be carried out (dangerous and open to abuse in itself), and it's a sure conviction (in such a way that an appeal is clearly foolish and a waste of time), there's no reason not to just put the criminal to sleep straight after.

As Winston Churchil said (paraphrased), a 5-minute conversation with the average voter is enough to convince one that democracy is a bad idea. People do not want a justice system - they want a vengeance system. This is counter-progressive to the extreme - society as a whole will never progress if we continue supporting these emotionally driven measures.