Jimquisition: Hardcore Hypocrisy

[Darth Rahu]

Thank you Jim for holding up Infinity Blade as an example of just how awesome iOS games are getting. if I'm not waiting for an update to download or I'm waiting for a food order to be completed, I wind up blowing a lot of time on both Infinity Blade games. Not for the graphics, that's pretty stupid on an iPhone game I mean if you want pretty colors watch a movie, but for the simple controls yet deep mechanics. Being able to watch enemies, learn their tells, parry their strikes then get in some swift combos, ohh man it's like crack! On top of that, Infinity Blade 2 adds the ability to dual wield weapons and go two-handed with maces and the like as opposed to the basic Sword and Shield fighting style. Also, you get different weapons with different abilities, different rings with diverse magic spells, and customizable gems to help tweak certain weapons. This is a "AAA" iPhone game for about seven dollars American, and I've been getting a lot of mileage out of it. As you said, simple interface, but lots of depth underneath, that is a great game, "hardcore" or "casual". And if Hardcore gamers want to dismiss it because its an iOS game, well hopefully they'll come around, but until then it's ours...ALL OURS!!! O_O

 

[Epic Fail 1977]

I don't think I've never known a term to be so confusing to people as "casual gamer", and I'm a fair bit older than most escapists. The term has been thrown around on gaming sites for years and I still can't find two people who agree on what it means. Even the infamously variable meaning of "RPG" tends to be better defined, and better understood, than "casual gamer".

I'm a PC gamer. I also consider myself a "hardcore gamer". And yet I've been enjoying iOS games for years. To my mind, a game is not automatically "casual" because of it's platform. Infinity Blade certainly isn't. Anyone can get the hang of Tetris in no time, but games like Infinity Blade assume a certain amount of (hardcore) gaming knowledge that most hardcore gamers don't even realise they have.

 

[aescuder]

I agree with the overall message although I'm sure there are many other facets to the casual gamer culture other than simplicity that "hardcore" gamers do not like. Questionable marketing schemes as well as the way they sometimes abuse gamification mechanics are a few that pop up from my head. Although yes I absolutely agree that the overall gaming community should be more inclusive and not exclusive and smug.

That aside, the one thing that I do find rather irksome about this video and other Jim Sterling videos is the way he uses the love for simple classic games as a crutch and completely ignoring its context in time (I believe he uses that same argument in the discussion about difficulty in games). Most of the time people are deeply enamored with retro games not really because they hold up in modern context, although sometimes they absolutely do, but I think its because they were absolutely gorgeous/groundbreaking/addicting FOR ITS TIME. I love simple games as much as the next casual gamer but you would forgive me if I expect more out of my $400 console and $60 blu-ray. If I could get a game like Skyrim for $60 you best have a lot more under your belt than simplicity and retro nostalgia in order for me to pay the same amount.

I absolutely love the classics like Punch Out, Super Mario Brothers, and Contra, but there is no way I would be playing it again anytime soon.

 

[XDravond]

I consider myself a "gamer" because I play games (quite often, like daily...) but would not put myself in "casual" or "hardcore" categories because there is always a sliding scale.
To a "non-gamer" I would probably be seen as hardcore, but to the "hardcore" I would seem more of a casual gamer, so what then?....

Games do not have to be "deep" or "impressive" brilliant, awesome, cool, best, and so on... I want my games to be fun TO ME, I don't need someone to tell me "that game you are enjoying are bad" it's fine to think that but do I have to care, no.
But say "Skyrim" sure it's a great game but why is it getting 10s all over have anyone watched the graphics (blocky faces, unimpressive ground/trees etc) should that not at least get some negative points? Sure the gameplay is awesome but why do the modding community have to "fix" such basic things as face-graphics? ... Will I enjoy it even though I "have" to modd it? Oh yes.. ;-D

 

[Trishbot]

Whatever happened to the litmus test of gaming, "easy to pick up, hard to master." There ya go. Length, complexity, budget... all those are secondary.

 

[Jennacide]

You know Jim, you're both right and wrong. You're right on the mark for the subject, but I'd wager your wrong on the group that is doing the slander. You're in the same age group as me, people that grew up with the fucking Atari and NES. I'm fairly confident the "hardcore haters" subset is all people that came in during the PS1 or PS2 era, and that's all they know is the more modernized games, where titles with the simplicity of Pac-man or Space Invaders was fewer and far between.

Which is honestly a fucking shame. As Pac-man Champsionship is the most played game on my Xbox360, bar none.

 

[Norix596]

What I got out of that: "Oh shit, there's an Infinity Blade 2?! To the App Store!"

 

[AngelBlackChaos]

Still doesn't explain why you gave Mario Kart that score for 'not changing anything', then MW3 ended up with a very high score.

You know Call of Duty right? That thing that gets repackaged every year?

I'm not a fan of Mario Kart myself, in fact, I prefer CoD to MK, but to see such a huge scoring difference is bizarre.

Any game can be as hardcore or as casual as you make it. Mario, for most people, is a casual experience, but there will always be the speed run fanatics.

They both didn't change a lot. The thing is, there are single player campaigns, stories that arent in a previous game, and however small, if you are of the fanbase for it, you may want to see the next chapter.

Kart Customization is a superficial add on, not something necessarily needed or storyline expanding. Not only that, but things like the blue shells, that punish good players, kind of undermine the game play. They could have done more for the game. Even adding a decent amount of storyline would have helped it tremendously.

 

[Aerograt]

So, uh, about those dildos dipped in pure smug...

 

[Spud of Doom]

I find some of these comments hilarious. Basically anybody in this thread who has labelled something as "casual" in a derogatory way and/or has some kind of arbitrary, internal criteria for "hardcore" games or gamers is the sort of person Jim is talking about.

 

[viranimus]

Ok Jim.

Your right on the bullshit of casual vs hardcore. However the problem is that your attributing that same argument to infinity blade, which regardless of what people will voluntarily say, People dont criticize infinity blade for being casual or lacking depth, the criticism is because its a product for an apple platform. Which by platform based birthright automatically deems it worthy of being criticized much as any product, first or third party that is exclusive to apple is deserving of.

Had Infinity blade been released on a platform that wasnt based on gouging a healthy mix of the rich and the retarded you simply would not hear these arguments. But because it is, It is. So perhaps the problem at least in this instance is not so much hardcore hypocrisy as much as it is getting your panties in a bunch over someone indirectly saying something negative against a platform you support.

So the argument while not loosing all of it, does loose a tad bit of validity when part of the argument is essentially just a defense of a gaming platform that is neither needed or even wanted. Remove support for apple from the equation, and I agree. Otherwise it just sounds like another apple fanboy cheering about how their gimped OS is awesome and totally not slick marketing, smoke and mirrors.

 

[GeorgW]

I loved the opening, the end line, and the part with the mario kart fan. That made me lol.
Usually I dislike when you do these kind of episodes, being very condescending and generalising. Not every gamer is the average internet moron, and especially on the Escapist there's a smaller percentage than at most places. But this time it was different, because even if it's something that should be obvious I see this kind of hypocrisy every day.
I think the Escapist podcast said it better, though this was a much needed more aggressive approach.

 

[Korten12]

Also speaking of IOS, anybody ever played Game Dev Story? Best $2 I ever spent. We need more of these type of games.

I have, got it yesterday at 6 or 7 PM and then played till 3 AM...

O.O So addicting, and so fun! It actually gives a lot of tension when developing a game. Not getting enough points, a black out or a bug that made you have to go to a back up.

 

[TheScientificIssole]

Well COD is the sort of thing that can be recycled. It's a standard of games, while Mario Kart isn't meant to be repackaged at all.

 

[klasbo]

I thought Hardcore gamers were determined by how many and how often they play games but not what games they play...Nevertheless, the most "simple" games can be the hardiest to play.

Your definition of "causal" or "hardcore" can easily be determined by the style of play rather than the game itself so I wouldn't be too quick to judge others for being causal/hardcore gamers.

Just because you're first, you're getting quoted as a starting point for the casual/hardcore debate. Also; you're right. Kinda.

I don't think I've never known a term to be so confusing to people as "casual gamer", and I'm a fair bit older than most escapists. The term has been thrown around on gaming sites for years and I still can't find two people who agree on what it means. Even the infamously variable meaning of "RPG" tends to be better defined, and better understood, than "casual gamer".

And you're getting quoted because I'm going to see if I can create a better definition of "casual" and "hardcore" than the nonsensical definitions thrown around.

Let's start with the most relevant wiktionary definitions:
Hardcore: Having an extreme dedication to a certain activity
Casual: 1) Informal, relaxed; 2) Coming without regularity; occasional or incidental

Instantly we see that a game cannot be "casual" or "hardcore", only the people playing said game. A hardcore gamer is just someone who plays a lot of games, either different games or the same game. A casual gamer is someone who doesn't have a rigid (time) structure to their gaming (one who plays games when it suits them), and doesn't play by any rules other than those present in the game. Notice how there is overlap here! You can play a lot of games when it suits you, without the formality associated with external meta-rules. What do I mean by this? Well:

The antonym of "casual gamer" would entail someone who plays regularly and formally, and the best word to describe these people would be "amateur gamers" or "professional gamers" (depending on if they are paid or not). These people play by strict out-of-game rulesets (the formal aspect), and play with and against other players on a regular basis. Per definition, these people would be "hardcore gamers" because of their dedication, but hardcore gamers are not necessarily not casual gamers.

So in conclusion, we have a new separation:
On the x-axis:
· Casual (plays without external rules)
· Amateur (plays with external rules: tournaments and the like)
· Professional (same as amateur, but gets a regular paycheck)

And on the y-axis:
· Hardcore (one with extreme dedication to the medium)
· [we_need_a_name_for_this] (one with little/no dedication to the medium; those who only play at parties, might occasionally play some games on their phone, etc)

Of course there's confusion when you try to separate people/games into two groups that aren't opposites! The vast majority of gamers are casual gamers, and there's nothing wrong with that. And the vast majority of people on this forum are hardcore gamers, and there's nothing wrong with that either.

PS: RPG: any game where the player takes on the role of an imaginary (and customizable (this is the subset that most people refer to when they say RPG)) character.

 

[Gunjester]

Does anyone actually consider themselves a hardcore, or casual gamer?
Seems a bit two dimensional and restrictive...

Agreed, I game in different levels depending on the games.
I play shitty hack n slash games, alongside quality shooters, for a quick thrill and to kill shit.
I play Dialogue and sandbox games for long-lasting experiences and freedom.
I play RPG's for the build-up of training and to watch the conversion of my scrawny farm boy turn into the Champion of Mankind.
I am a gamer, and like talking to those who are alongside me, whether in obsession or in small ways.
Personally I see casual gamers in a better light then some of the "hardcore" gamers, not because i dislike my hardcore buddies, but because if casual gaming doesn't grow, people won't be open to the idea of video-games, and we'll be back to where we started, now won't we?

 

[veloper]

Jim is creating a strawman here by arguing against two conflicting definitions of the term "casual" that won't be used by single person and then yell hyprocrisy anyway.

The term casual game, may have been used by some to mean a simple game, but to most it means easy.
Ninja Gaiden may be simple, compared to a RTS or RPG, for example, but very few would consider it casual, because the game is hard to beat. There is no hypocrisy here.

Now if that same person won't call a classic nintendo-hard game a "hardcore game", would that make it hypocritical?
Not if hardcore vs casual isn't a binary choice. Not everyone holds the definition that hardcore would be "non-casual".

Hardcore game: the game has a learning curve that takes skill and practice to master; a challenge posed by the computer or other players that forces you to continue to improve on your understanding of the game; punishes failure and rewards higher skill.
Good examples: SC, WC3, COH.

So if the game is very hard, but only tests your reflexes and muscle memory, perhaps that game is just "hard"; not casual, not hardcore.


Casual game then is a useful term, for labeling easy games, the gamer who wants a challenge doesn't need to bother with.

 

[Atmos Duality]

So... Call of Duty is casual and Mario Kart is hardcore? Did I wake up in the Bizarro universe or something?

Try playing Double Dash with 4 players going through the final stretch, both racers perfectly in tune with their partners, neck and neck down to the last moment with a blue shell bearing down on you and tell me Mario Kart isn't hard core. I have lost blood over that game.

Oh man, back in the day, my sis and I had a zen-like connection that lead to the doom of many self-proclaimed "pros" at Double Dash. For most levels, I drove, she killed.

Don't be fooled by the cutesy colors: Double Dash can be every bit as cutthroat competitive as any shooter.

 

[Aureliano]

I like it. I like it a lot!

I think this vid was a version, which much broader appeal, of what you were trying to say in the Kirby episode. That is, that a simple game need not be shitty or so easy as to not be worth it. And you did it with jokes, references to great games from the past that embody this principle but are not referred to as 'casual', and with the all-important reminder to hardcore gamers that they are not special. They are not cyber-warrior-monks. They're just the same video game enthusiasts as those who play casual games but with different tastes.