Joss Whedon deletes twitter account following mass of feminist criticism

[Methodia Chicken]

Twitter is just a pile of hot garbage and needs to die already.

One thing that confuses me about Twitter is how that hasn't already happened. Not because of the quality if its content, but because it has never had a profitable quarter. How the hell are they still in business?

I think it is becoming more an more apparent that Twitter is being sustained by some kind of quasi-demonic entity that feeds on bile hatred and poorly thought out choices, feeding both sides of every battle with an endless stream of bullshit and misery...

You know like this [link]http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2013/07/05[/link]. I pity the poor souls already in it's clutches.

Anyway this whole thing about Joss just confuses me, he's written some great female characters before and some absolutely horrendous ones that are far more problematic than black widow, no idea what the big deal about this one is? oh well I'm sure everyone involved is a lot happier with him off twitter.

 

[dreng3]

This is why you don't go on Twitter, people.

I could blame the assholes, but what are they gonna do... not be assholes?! I mean, come on.

As a car-carrying asshole I take offence to the comparison to these people. Being an asshole is an art, a master craft which takes years of careful development to truly achieve.

And quite a bit of muscle training if you're gonna carry around a car, unless it's a smartcar i guess .

 

[Erttheking]

*Sigh* is there anything I can say that can make people happy? I doubt it. Everyone on the internet seems determined to be unhappy about something. Seriously, it's like we can't ever be happy about something the GGers or the SJWs have always done something!

It's why I make so many "Burn it all" jokes nowadays. I'm only half joking.

I'm tired...I have no problem analyzing media to see what they do wrong, but I'm tired of my hobbies being a battleground. We can't talk to each other like adults half the time, all we can do is say how horrible everything is and talk about how group X is to blame. And there's no end to it in sight.

So I say again...let it all burn.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

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FALCON SNIP!

But shouldn't we give everyone the benefit of the doubt? Are we really ready to go so far as to risk condemning someone in the court of public opinion because they didn't, or couldn't, consider every aspect of their statement? How likely is it truly that Joss Whedon wanted to offend transpeople? This is not me saying that people should grow thicker skin, or dismissing everything that has, and undoubtedly will, happen to any group, it is a suggestion that we consider both intent and implication. Was there truly any reason to call for the blood of Whedon (dibs on that as a bandname) because he made a stupid remark? Could we not simply ask "I think your statement regarding the genitals of female character were a bit ambiguous, would you care to elaborate?" would that not be better than flying into a rage and threaten a mans life? I think, because you seem a decent person, that we can agree to that. Offense is fine and well, but we need to direct our offense, we need the facts, we cannot simply declare "Whedon has weapons of mass destruction(or weapons of mass offensiveness as it may be)"(a tad inappropriate but I'm exaggerating for effect) and go for the throat.

I think we need to stop putting so much stock in to individual offence and the defensiveness that comes along with it. Saying that someone said something potentially, or just plain out right transphobic, or misogynistic, or racist... What have you. It shouldn't be a damning statement against that person, or their work. To me this is the case of political correctness being used to shut down any debate. Either way it's not active malice to slip up and say something racist, homophobic, sexist, transphobic, or what have you. The problem is that people who use the outrage machine for political gain have made such things totally damning, rather than examples of ignorance and fear. Hell it's come to the point where malice is assigned to off colour jokes. The question of a joke being offensive, or racist/homophobic/sexist/transphobic/ect, should not instantly ruin a person. The problem has become that genuine complaints about things, even when innocent enough in nature, are absolutely damning. The really horrible part about this is that it damages the wording, and makes a lot of people write it off out of hand. Rather than addressing deeper core issues. I totally understand where you're coming from, but really the liberal dialectic is one of the worst offences ever perpetrated on minority and marginalized groups. I don't want people run out of town on a rail when I state that something is offensive, especially to a group who has had historical issues. I want wording such as transphobic, homophobic, sexist, racist, and such to be used as a means of telling people what they did, or said, was inappropriate. Not as a means to publicly damn people.

 

[StatusNil]

He's given his opinion on Twitter
http://imgur.com/dGvmixB
Turns out all those accounts with thousands of tweets slamming Whedon are elaborately constructed GG channer sockpuppets, because at this point there is nothing you cant assuage your own doubts by blaming them with.

Oh good grief, "no conspiracist here... HOWEVER..."

I'm personally not a fan of Mr. Chipman's at all. Yet this still makes me a little sad. Enabling someone's delusions is a terrible thing.

 

[MatParker116]

I think the real issue here is the lack of super-powered females in the Avengers franchise.

I like Black Widow, don't get me wrong. She was great in Iron Man 2, Winter Soldier and the first Avengers movie, but it's getting to the point where she's just, running out of things to do. At the end of the day, her and Hawkeye are still just supremely lethal (but very much human) killing machines. They're amazing at fighting other humans, but it's getting harder and harder to have them participate in the main battles. In Age of Ultron they were both kind of relegated to evac'ing civilians while the people with super-powers did the bulk of the major combat.

Even in other movies, not a lot of truly super females. Even Gamora from Guardians is pretty much just a supremely-trained (slightly cybernetically-enhanced) elite soldier. She isn't *really* a superhero. Nowhere on the same league as the big names. I think the closest we've seen a woman come to super-level power has been Lady Syph, and even she's had very, very little to do.

Scarlet Witch is a good first step, since it seems like she's going to be a primary member of the new team. But, it would be nice to bring in more properly-super female heroes. All the build-up to Antman, and the only thing I keep wondering is where the hell is Wasp? Wasp, or Giant Girl, or whatever form she takes is tons of fun and her power-set lets you do all sorts of potentially cool things. With Marvel finally re-acquiring Spider-Man (sort of), it'd be kind of cool to bring in Giant Girl, considering what a fun relationship they've had in the comics.

There's always Squirrel Girl too. I know she's a joke character, but still

Wasp might be here very soon and Ms Danvers is waiting in the wings. Joss actually wanted her and Spidey to appear at the end.

 

[L. Declis]

He's given his opinion on Twitter
http://imgur.com/dGvmixB
Turns out all those accounts with thousands of tweets slamming Whedon are elaborately constructed GG channer sockpuppets, because at this point there is nothing you cant assuage your own doubts by blaming them with.

Oh good grief, "no conspiracist here... HOWEVER..."

I'm personally not a fan of Mr. Chipman's at all. Yet sometimes I still feel a twinge of pity for him. Enabling someone's delusions is a terrible thing.

I made a point to follow him on Twitter for about a year, if only to try to listen to the other side. The man is delusional; he is obsessed with the GamerGate dudebro boogeyman of gaming, he has slammed his head into the ice block of social justice so many times that brains are splattered everywhere, and I read his book.

His book. The man needs some serious psychological help. I can't even begin to describe how much pity I have for him, because when it comes to films, if he isn't on some kind of crusade, he is a hugely intelligent man who has a fantastic way of breaking down films into understandable bites.

 

[dreng3]

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Clever snip joke

I think we need to stop putting so much stock in to individual offence and the defensiveness that comes along with it. Saying that someone said something potentially, or just plain out right transphobic, or misogynistic, or racist... What have you. It shouldn't be a damning statement against that person, or their work. To me this is the case of political correctness being used to shut down any debate. Either way it's not active malice to slip up and say something racist, homophobic, sexist, transphobic, or what have you. The problem is that people who use the outrage machine for political gain have made such things totally damning, rather than examples of ignorance and fear. Hell it's come to the point where malice is assigned to off colour jokes. The question of a joke being offensive, or racist/homophobic/sexist/transphobic/ect, should not instantly ruin a person. The problem has become that genuine complaints about things, even when innocent enough in nature, are absolutely damning. The really horrible part about this is that it damages the wording, and makes a lot of people write it off out of hand. Rather than addressing deeper core issues. I totally understand where you're coming from, but really the liberal dialectic is one of the worst offences ever perpetrated on minority and marginalized groups. I don't want people run out of town on a rail when I state that something is offensive, especially to a group who has had historical issues. I want wording such as transphobic, homophobic, sexist, racist, and such to be used as a means of telling people what they did, or said, was inappropriate. Not as a means to publicly damn people.

We might actually be in agreement on most points then, people should have the opportunity to communicate that they've been offended and why, though I think the main problem in any such communication is the modern use of "-phobic", at this point pretty much everything can be reduced to someone being phobic of something. Instead of people simply crying homophobic I'd rather see a well thought out, well formulated point, simply because something being "-phobic" often indicates that the one saying it is a holder of the relevant phobia. I know that the common counterargument to this is that you can say something stupid without being stupid, but then we go and attack people for saying the stupid thing anyway. -phobic is, as far as I can see, going to end up as nothing but a quick way to shut down any debate or discussion.

 

[Saltyk]

Wait...wasn't Whedon, and Oswalt for that matter, quite open in his disdain for #GG?

Christ. There's no winning here is there?

Don't play. For fuck sakes, don't play.

Not to mention Whedon turned Buffy into a household name and made her one of the most kickass, and real, characters in fiction.

The only way to win, is not to play. Hence why I pretty much never post in these threads.

Reason and logic need not apply to this sort of subject. It's all emotion, outrage, and just a little bit of a victim mentality.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

We might actually be in agreement on most points then, people should have the opportunity to communicate that they've been offended and why, though I think the main problem in any such communication is the modern use of "-phobic", at this point pretty much everything can be reduced to someone being phobic of something. Instead of people simply crying homophobic I'd rather see a well thought out, well formulated point, simply because something being "-phobic" often indicates that the one saying it is a holder of the relevant phobia. I know that the common counterargument to this is that you can say something stupid without being stupid, but then we go and attack people for saying the stupid thing anyway. -phobic is, as far as I can see, going to end up as nothing but a quick way to shut down any debate or discussion.

Essentially the same point I was trying to make. These words are being used by mass media as a method of shutting down debate and discussion. Basically it's gotten to the point where the words have been elevated to "buzz word" status, and weaponized to destroy ones opponents, especially along lines of political discourse. Which is sad because as subject based words they have value to easily illustrate a point, rather than having to use a round about wording to describe how something can come off offensive.

 

[dreng3]

Snip snap snop

Essentially the same point I was trying to make. These words are being used by mass media as a method of shutting down debate and discussion. Basically it's gotten to the point where the words have been elevated to "buzz word" status, and weaponized to destroy ones opponents, especially along lines of political discourse. Which is sad because as subject based words they have value to easily illustrate a point, rather than having to use a round about wording to describe how something can come off offensive.

So basically we've been arguing over how much we actually agree with each other? God I love the internet.

 

[FoolKiller]

I'll bite. How is that quip transphobic, let alone unacceptable?

Basically it's easily viewed as a shot at trans people. Basically talking about strong woman leads and not having male genitalia. Since not all trans people go in for gender reassignment surgery, it can be seen as a joke at the expense of trans people. Even if he didn't mean it that way that's how I saw it, as did a bunch of other transwomen apparently. If he didn't mean it that way, a clarification wouldn't be amiss.

1. What ever happened to if you can take a comment two ways and one of them is insulting and the other is not, then assume its the non-insulting way until you know otherwise?

2. Over the past 20 years, he's made some of the best and most interesting female characters in things like Buffy, Angel, Firefly, and Dollhouse. Picking on him for his use of Marvel's source material is a bit unfair. He didn't create the Marvel Universe, he just used the tools he had.

 

[FirstNameLastName]

Also for everyone's viewing pleasure, here's another hilarious compilation from Joss' Twitter...

My thoughts exactly. When I heard about this, I was rather confused, since everything I've heard about Joss is that he's firmly on the social justice side.

So you can march in lock step with these fanatics all you want, but the second you march slightly out of sync they'll clock you as a sexist, racist, homophobic, transphobic, ableist, ageist, sizeist, singlist, specist bigot?

What exactly are people angry about anyway? Surely it isn't just that allegedly transphobic statement, right?

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

I'm... really confused? Black Widow was pretty vital to the plot, actually held her own in a more than considerable way and had an intriguing backstory which got trimmed down so woo, extended edition version will have more red room. Actually, one big thing I liked about Ultron was everyone GOT an arc and they were all integral to a point. The Maximoffs could have been smooshed into being just one but it was kind of cool, and Scarlet Witch had her own bevy of flaws like not being a natural fighter and having to woman up before going on a rampage or being a tad vindictive when it came to Ultron and her brother. I know that there's a bunch of modern feminists for whom flaws = sexist, but surely the majority are actually gonna back him up on having moderately well rounded characters? (still don't get the 'slut' gag or issue, only Avenger she shows ACTUAL interest in is Banner, in all the movies. No feelings for Rogers since she's always trying to set him up, she's besties with Barton, actively declines Stark)

Also, while I do think we need more female leads in the FILMS, AoS and Agent Carter did do a pretty stand up job of having lead female characters with Jessica Jones on the way. Which really just emphasises they could MAKE the movie even if none of the radicals clamouring for it would see it because they'd find SOME fault >.> Really I just wanna see a Captain Marvel movie, it could be really f*cking cool.

Sad to lose Whedon on Twitter and sad no-one can remember that EVERY OTHER FILMED THING HE'S PRODUCED STARRED A FEMALE LEAD (... except Firefly, but I'd argue it's an ensemble. Wouldn't WIN the argument but I'd argue it)

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Snip snap snop

Essentially the same point I was trying to make. These words are being used by mass media as a method of shutting down debate and discussion. Basically it's gotten to the point where the words have been elevated to "buzz word" status, and weaponized to destroy ones opponents, especially along lines of political discourse. Which is sad because as subject based words they have value to easily illustrate a point, rather than having to use a round about wording to describe how something can come off offensive.

So basically we've been arguing over how much we actually agree with each other? God I love the internet.

Hah! I'd consider it that we've been having a rather fruitful discussion, it just happens that we agree on the subject in general.

I'll bite. How is that quip transphobic, let alone unacceptable?

Basically it's easily viewed as a shot at trans people. Basically talking about strong woman leads and not having male genitalia. Since not all trans people go in for gender reassignment surgery, it can be seen as a joke at the expense of trans people. Even if he didn't mean it that way that's how I saw it, as did a bunch of other transwomen apparently. If he didn't mean it that way, a clarification wouldn't be amiss.

1. What ever happened to if you can take a comment two ways and one of them is insulting and the other is not, then assume its the non-insulting way until you know otherwise?

2. Over the past 20 years, he's made some of the best and most interesting female characters in things like Buffy, Angel, Firefly, and Dollhouse. Picking on him for his use of Marvel's source material is a bit unfair. He didn't create the Marvel Universe, he just used the tools he had.

1. The rules run a bit differently for people who feel singled out, marginalized, and abused, especially on a systemic level. Which is how most trans people feel. Simply when you feel targeted, you're more likely to take these things badly.

2. Somewhat irrelevant on the first part, and on the second I agree, but also the fact that he got beaten as hard as he did was unacceptable. Though he does have a problem with a single character voice across all his characters, I do like his stuff. One comment I found objectionable doesn't change that.

Addendum: Just because what he said can be taken as transphobic, and offensive in the one tweet doesn't make him a terrible person in my eyes. I was offended by it, and found it transphobic, but that's me. Besides I'm not asking for the mans head on a platter. I'd just kinda like conformation that as a trans person, me, and people like me weren't the target of that remark.

 

[Erttheking]

My thoughts exactly. When I heard about this, I was rather confused, since everything I've heard about Joss is that he's firmly on the social justice side.

So you can march in lock step with these fanatics all you want, but the second you march slightly out of sync they'll clock you as a sexist, racist, homophobic, transphobic, ableist, ageist, sizeist, singlist, specist bigot?

What exactly are people angry about anyway? Surely it isn't just that allegedly transphobic statement, right?

It's the internet, people don't feel fufilled unless they feel angry about something, and it's a blade that cuts both ways. As much as people like to say Moviebob has to find a way for GG to be at fault for everything, some people like to go on witch hunts for SJWs, saying that they're to blame for censorship when it turns out that censorship was artists changing their product in a way that they felt improved it. Because this is the internet. It's not a place for rational discussion, it's a place for people to roar about how their feelings and values are hurt, and that makes the other person objectively wrong. Because they think that way and human beings would sooner throw themselves on a sword than back down from an ideal they believe in, no matter how little sense it makes.

Also if you don't want to go insane, stay far away from twitter, it's like looking for rational debate in Youtube comments. Part of me wishes we could be as apathetic towards Twitter as we are to youtube comments but we're not there yet it seems.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

My thoughts exactly. When I heard about this, I was rather confused, since everything I've heard about Joss is that he's firmly on the social justice side.

So you can march in lock step with these fanatics all you want, but the second you march slightly out of sync they'll clock you as a sexist, racist, homophobic, transphobic, ableist, ageist, sizeist, singlist, specist bigot?

What exactly are people angry about anyway? Surely it isn't just that allegedly transphobic statement, right?

It's the internet, people don't feel fufilled unless they feel angry about something, and it's a blade that cuts both ways. As much as people like to say Moviebob has to find a way for GG to be at fault for everything, some people like to go on witch hunts for SJWs, saying that they're to blame for censorship when it turns out that censorship was artists changing their product in a way that they felt improved it. Because this is the internet. It's not a place for rational discussion, it's a place for people to roar about how their feelings and values are hurt, and that makes the other person objectively wrong. Because they think that way and human beings would sooner throw themselves on a sword than back down from an ideal they believe in, no matter how little sense it makes.

Also if you don't want to go insane, stay far away from twitter, it's like looking for rational debate in Youtube comments. Part of me wishes we could be as apathetic towards Twitter as we are to youtube comments but we're not there yet it seems.

I think you're a bit off on that assessment. I think the reason rational debate flies out the window on the internet is due to the anonymity it provides. It makes it easy to assault someone for the tiniest things, easy to bully someone, easy to shut them down with words, and easy to provoke people for your own entertainment. Kinda states to me that most people are cowards.

Also strangely enough I've had more rational debates with people in YouTube comments that quite a few places. Sure there plenty of asshats, but by and large there are more decent people around. I think the same would go for Twitter too, it's just a shame that all we see is the negative side.

 

[Erttheking]

My thoughts exactly. When I heard about this, I was rather confused, since everything I've heard about Joss is that he's firmly on the social justice side.

So you can march in lock step with these fanatics all you want, but the second you march slightly out of sync they'll clock you as a sexist, racist, homophobic, transphobic, ableist, ageist, sizeist, singlist, specist bigot?

What exactly are people angry about anyway? Surely it isn't just that allegedly transphobic statement, right?

It's the internet, people don't feel fufilled unless they feel angry about something, and it's a blade that cuts both ways. As much as people like to say Moviebob has to find a way for GG to be at fault for everything, some people like to go on witch hunts for SJWs, saying that they're to blame for censorship when it turns out that censorship was artists changing their product in a way that they felt improved it. Because this is the internet. It's not a place for rational discussion, it's a place for people to roar about how their feelings and values are hurt, and that makes the other person objectively wrong. Because they think that way and human beings would sooner throw themselves on a sword than back down from an ideal they believe in, no matter how little sense it makes.

Also if you don't want to go insane, stay far away from twitter, it's like looking for rational debate in Youtube comments. Part of me wishes we could be as apathetic towards Twitter as we are to youtube comments but we're not there yet it seems.

I think you're a bit off on that assessment. I think the reason rational debate flies out the window on the internet is due to the anonymity it provides. It makes it easy to assault someone for the tiniest things, easy to bully someone, easy to shut them down with words, and easy to provoke people for your own entertainment. Kinda states to me that most people are cowards.

Also strangely enough I've had more rational debates with people in YouTube comments that quite a few places. Sure there plenty of asshats, but by and large there are more decent people around. I think the same would go for Twitter too, it's just a shame that all we see is the negative side.

I think both play a faction

That kind of plays into what I said. People tell themselves that places like Tumblr/4chan are hives of toxicity because it helps them view SJWs/GGers as the bad guys that they've convinced themselves that they are, and it could be 1 negative post for every 100 positive posts and those people would only care about and focus on the negative ones because they've already made up their minds that they're right and they're just looking for evidence to support the conclusion they've already reached. It's kind of why I'm kind of apathetic about this whole mess. We're focusing on a small group of jackasses on Twitter and losing our minds over it.

Again.

 

[FirstNameLastName]

Also if you don't want to go insane, stay far away from twitter, it's like looking for rational debate in Youtube comments. Part of me wishes we could be as apathetic towards Twitter as we are to youtube comments but we're not there yet it seems.

I have somewhat of a compulsion to look at the comments under a Youtube video, and I have absolutely no idea why. I still maintain that there is more intelligent discussion on /b/ than there is on Youtube. They only ever make me lose faith in humanity every time a read them.

Even Steam seems to be a cesspool of absolute cretins. I'm pretty sure the last thing I read on Steam discussions was a thread where people attacked the OP for asking perfectly valid questions, and then devolving into a massive dick-waving contest over how powerful their computers are.

I can't understand why some sites seem to be filled mostly with reasonable discussion and a few snarky comments, yet others are filled exclusively with idiots and CAPSLOCK.

 

[Erttheking]

Also if you don't want to go insane, stay far away from twitter, it's like looking for rational debate in Youtube comments. Part of me wishes we could be as apathetic towards Twitter as we are to youtube comments but we're not there yet it seems.

I have somewhat of a compulsion to look at the comments under a Youtube video, and I have absolutely no idea why. I still maintain that there is more intelligent discussion on /b/ than there is on Youtube. They only ever make me lose faith in humanity every time a read them.

Even Steam seems to be a cesspool of absolute cretins. I'm pretty sure the last thing I read on Stead discussions was a thread where people attacked the OP for asking perfectly valid questions, and then devolving into a massive dick-waving contest over how powerful their computers are.

I can't understand why some sites seem to be filled mostly with reasonable discussion and a few snarky comments, yet others are filled exclusively with idiots and CAPSLOCK.

Probably because of the community that starts up there and builds around it. Also I heard someone say once that when an online community is established and time goes by, eventually a lot of people will move on and only the most hardcore extremists will be left...reminds me of the Halo Reach forum, fuck that place.

That and the bigger the community the more statistically likely it is for there to be a dick mule, who will attract other dick mules and drive the non-dick mules away or just make them be quiet to not have to deal with the fucking dick mules so the dick mules are the only ones who can make their voice heard.