K, so, japanese game devs hate us now?

[Epona]

Maybe they read all those Western articles about how irrelevant they are and decided "Fine. We're irrelevant. Screw all y'all."

Except that it's always been like this. Many games have never been released outside of Japan or were released in Europe/North America but not the other.

No, it's getting worse. Even flagship titles like phoenix wright, Tales, and Dragon Quest are being withheld now.

Flagship titles like Final Fantasy were withheld until Final Fantasy VII. The Tales games were withheld before now too, the first Tales games was never released here on the SNES. In fact, because of low production runs of the Tales games they are niche titles.

And then they started to be brought over here to sell to the overseas market.

And now Tales overseas support has been pulled after an array of flagship titles in the series were translated and sold here.

The entire series of Phoenix Wright was brought over, plus a couple newly released spin-offs. Support for that series has been pulled, too.

It may have started out as a segregated market, but it doesn't change the fact that the overseas support of japanese devs is worse thanit was, say, 4 years ago.

Yes, this generation has been hard on Japanese developers but I don't feel bad for them. They shun western games and consoles and buy less of our stuff than we buy of theirs so...

Anyway, yeah, over the long term things have just come full circle but looking only in the short term, it looks grim.

 

[LilithSlave]

Because there isn't a Skyrim modding community in Japan.

And you're not supposed/allowed to feel bad about the state of the industry just because the majority of Japanese people enjoy playing Japanese games as much as some Americans do?

There are cultural differences. Japanese people don't tend to like hyper bloody shooting games, first person perspective, and big burly dudes. Remember how everyone was arguing with me that "graphics and aesthetics matter too, I won't play an ugly game"? That sort of thing is not appealing to their culture and that's not a bad thing. Perhaps the West could use a bit more Little Big Planet type games and less Gears of War type games? I think so.

Might I say also that developers and fans are not the same thing. What the majority of game fans like doesn't change the fact it would be bad for any good game to not sell as well as it should.

Also, heck, there are already fan videos and fanart in Japan for Skullgirls.

I don't like the status quo, because I, a Western, get to play less games that I like.

 

[Kahunaburger]

What's so inherently childish about that? What's so inherently childish about the Japanese game development philosophy?

Nothing. It's just something WRPG fans say when something triggers the "Us Vs. Them" gland rattling around in their heads. They play up the "Dark grittiness" of their own boring genre and decry colorful characters and fun, not-gloomily-orchestral music as "childish."

Gods fuckin' forbid people enjoy different things on this rock.

Haha, truth. In general I've seen much more "mature" topics tackled by JRPGs, if you define "mature" as "related to things mature individuals do in the real world." As Shia-Neko-Chan said, Ace Attorney is about struggling against unjust convictions in a legal system designed to create them. Or take Recettear, which I'm currently playing: sure, it's presented in about the most cutesy way imaginable, but it's actually about a child who is abandoned by her father and slapped with escalating debt. Instead of joining #OccupySymphonia, she opens a small business and has to quickly learn how to attract a loyal customer base, maximize ROI, and so on. So yeah, actual content of good JRPGs is easily as mature as the cream of the WRPG crop.

 

[Shia-Neko-Chan]

snip

It's a lot more complex than that, isn't it?

What about the fact that back then when japanese games were being brought over, it was a first-time sort of thing, so when there wasn't any japanese support, it was because they hadn't tried it yet? Nothing was actually pulled, it's just that it hadn't gotten here full force yet.

What about the fact that when japanese companies first tried to bring their games here, gaming was just getting out of the revival phase? Now, years later, japanese games have actually pulled support, during now which could be thought of as the evolution of gaming. The thought of bringing japanese games overseas is something they've already explored now and they've decided that our market isn't worth it. It's a lot more significant when you think of it that way.

Overall is how it affects me. I don't want to play in an industry where I can't experience any japanese games, because that's mainly what I look for. Without those, I'm a gamer who can't really get excited over any new releases. :/

I have to be this way and it isn't because I'm jaded, it's because my favorite kind of games aren't coming over anymore.

 

[Epona]

Because there isn't a Skyrim modding community in Japan.

And you're not supposed/allowed to feel bad about the state of the industry just because the majority of Japanese people enjoy playing Japanese games as much as some Americans do?

There are cultural differences. Japanese people don't tend to like hyper bloody shooting games, first person perspective, and big burly dudes. Remember how everyone was arguing with me that "graphics and aesthetics matter too, I won't play an ugly game"? That sort of thing is not appealing to their culture and that's not a bad thing. Perhaps the West could use a bit more Little Big Planet type games and less Gears of War type games? I think so.

Might I say also that developers and fans are not the same thing. What the majority of game fans like doesn't change the fact it would be bad for any good game to not sell as well as it should.

Also, heck, there are already fan videos and fanart in Japan for Skullgirls.

I don't like the status quo, because I, a Western, get to play less games that I like.

So we could use a bit more "Cutesy games" but you don't request that the Japanese buy more "hyper bloody shooting games". Sounds biased.

I actually don't like most western games and prefer the more cutesy games but even I can see the bias dripping from your post. After all, we already buy more Japanese game than they buy of our games.

 

[LilithSlave]

I am biased. I'm very irritated at how little games I've interested have come to my country for years. And it's only getting worse.

It doesn't mean there isn't reason to feel sad about how badly Japanese developers are doing right now. Even in Japan, Japanese developers aren't doing that well.

And also, seriously, you shouldn't have to live in an awful country like Japan in order to have your sort of video game readily available to you. I don't care what Japanese gamers like, the games Japanese developers make shouldn't do as badly as they do.

 

[Epona]

snip

It's a lot more complex than that, isn't it?

What about the fact that back then when japanese games were being brought over, it was a first-time sort of thing, so when there wasn't any japanese support, it was because they hadn't tried it yet? Nothing was actually pulled, it's just that it hadn't gotten here full force yet.

What about the fact that when japanese companies first tried to bring their games here, gaming was just getting out of the revival phase? Now, years later, japanese games have actually pulled support, during now which could be thought of as the evolution of gaming. The thought of bringing japanese games overseas is something they've already explored now and they've decided that our market isn't worth it. It's a lot more significant when you think of it that way.

Overall is how it affects me. I don't want to play in an industry where I can't experience any japanese games, because that's mainly what I look for. Without those, I'm a gamer who can't really get excited over any new releases. :/

I have to be this way and it isn't because I'm jaded, it's because my favorite kind of games aren't coming over anymore.

So you quote me but the quote box is empty save for "snip" and then you first sentence says:

It's a lot more complex than that, isn't it?

So I literally laugh out loud as I agree that it is indeed more complex than "snip".

Ok, seriously though.

Pulling support = Releasing Final Fantasy 1 and skipping 2 and 3. Releasing Secret of Mana but skipping Secret of Mana 2.

I too play more Japanese games than western.

 

[Epona]

I am biased. I'm very irritated at how little games I've interested have come to my country for years. And it's only getting worse.

It doesn't mean there isn't reason to feel sad about how badly Japanese developers are doing right now.

I am just saying that the Japanese don't give a shit about western games or western consoles and so why should I care. I do miss good JRPG's but I'll live and the larger issue to me is that we are being accused of being the xenophobic ones.

 

[boag]

Maybe they read all those Western articles about how irrelevant they are and decided "Fine. We're irrelevant. Screw all y'all."

Huh. I'd forgotten about those. But come on where does that leave me? I actually prefer their game development style and now I don't have much to look forward to. x_x

Youll have to moon speak and begin importing like everyone else that wants to play Jrpgs.

 

[go-10]

so learn Japanese and import :/ that's what I did

 

[LilithSlave]

so why should I care.

Because that's no reason not to care whatsoever.

If good games you like aren't being made because there isn't enough demand for them, that shouldn't make you happy. This is like saying that you shouldn't be sad for titles like Psychonauts doing bad, because a lot of fans of games like Psychonauts are gaming hipsters who hate mainstreams games.

And who said we were xenophobic but they weren't ever? Do two wrong make a right?

Furthermore, I think our xenophobia has more cultural power. Japan does have a big population, but the gaming population is smaller. Heck, the English speaking world games are typically ported to is much larger than Japan. Non-English speaking cultures are always a world minority of sorts. The Japanese culture is as tiny in comparison to the world as Goths are tiny in comparison the American culture at large. We're the ones who set the worldwide market and norms, not them.

So if we don't like their games, it has further reaching consequences than if they don't like our games.

 

[Shia-Neko-Chan]

snip

It's a lot more complex than that, isn't it?

What about the fact that back then when japanese games were being brought over, it was a first-time sort of thing, so when there wasn't any japanese support, it was because they hadn't tried it yet? Nothing was actually pulled, it's just that it hadn't gotten here full force yet.

What about the fact that when japanese companies first tried to bring their games here, gaming was just getting out of the revival phase? Now, years later, japanese games have actually pulled support, during now which could be thought of as the evolution of gaming. The thought of bringing japanese games overseas is something they've already explored now and they've decided that our market isn't worth it. It's a lot more significant when you think of it that way.

Overall is how it affects me. I don't want to play in an industry where I can't experience any japanese games, because that's mainly what I look for. Without those, I'm a gamer who can't really get excited over any new releases. :/

I have to be this way and it isn't because I'm jaded, it's because my favorite kind of games aren't coming over anymore.

So you quote me but the quote box is empty save for "snip" and then you first sentence says:

It's a lot more complex than that, isn't it?

So I literally laugh out loud as I agree that it is indeed more complex than "snip".

Ok, seriously though.

Pulling support = Releasing Final Fantasy 1 and skipping 2 and 3. Releasing Secret of Mana but skipping Secret of Mana 2.

I too play more Japanese games than western.

I didn't snip you for that purpose, I did it because I think quote trees are frowned upon, here. :/

anyway, those two examples are very closely following the revival of video gaming. I'm talking years later, in the current era of video gaming, after there were years of cultural testing and trying behind their decisions.

 

[Epona]

so why should I care.

Because that's no reason not to care whatsoever.

If good games you like aren't being made because there isn't enough demand for them, that shouldn't make you happy. This is like saying that you shouldn't be sad for titles like Psychonauts doing bad, because a lot of fans of games like Psychonauts are gaming hipsters who hate mainstreams games.

And who said we were xenophobic but they weren't ever? Do two wrong make a right?

Because there is no reason not to care is pretty weak.

I m saying that it's kind of silly to say that we are xenophobic in a direct comparison to a country who is MORE xenophobic. It makes the statement not only meaningless, but outright wrong.

You know what though, I am sick to death of what Japan is putting out. I hate the anime art style. Sack boy is cute, Tales of characters are not. Final Fantasy still has a nice art style and nothing is ever plain in a Final Fantasy game (a sword has to bave some weird attachments or designs), that is what I like coming out of Japan but it seems that much of what we get is just more anime because it's easier to draw cartoon frames than it is to make Final Fantasy type graphics. So why am I saying all this? Maybe that's one reason sales are down. Think about it, if western devs made games in a Disney animated style, it would get old really fast to those who don't love Disney.

 

[Epona]

snip

It's a lot more complex than that, isn't it?

What about the fact that back then when japanese games were being brought over, it was a first-time sort of thing, so when there wasn't any japanese support, it was because they hadn't tried it yet? Nothing was actually pulled, it's just that it hadn't gotten here full force yet.

What about the fact that when japanese companies first tried to bring their games here, gaming was just getting out of the revival phase? Now, years later, japanese games have actually pulled support, during now which could be thought of as the evolution of gaming. The thought of bringing japanese games overseas is something they've already explored now and they've decided that our market isn't worth it. It's a lot more significant when you think of it that way.

Overall is how it affects me. I don't want to play in an industry where I can't experience any japanese games, because that's mainly what I look for. Without those, I'm a gamer who can't really get excited over any new releases. :/

I have to be this way and it isn't because I'm jaded, it's because my favorite kind of games aren't coming over anymore.

So you quote me but the quote box is empty save for "snip" and then you first sentence says:

It's a lot more complex than that, isn't it?

So I literally laugh out loud as I agree that it is indeed more complex than "snip".

Ok, seriously though.

Pulling support = Releasing Final Fantasy 1 and skipping 2 and 3. Releasing Secret of Mana but skipping Secret of Mana 2.

I too play more Japanese games than western.

I didn't snip you for that purpose, I did it because I think quote trees are frowned upon, here. :/

anyway, those two examples are very closely following the revival of video gaming. I'm talking years later, in the current era of video gaming, after there were years of cultural testing and trying behind their decisions.

Ok, I fail to see the difference. It's just a cycle. When Final Fantasy became a sensation around FF7 then we missed no Final Fantasy main games. Prior to that the popularity was questionable. Just a cycle and we are back on the "Japanese games are not that popular here".

Thing is, no one would question bringing Mario over here or to Europe, why? Popularity, you don't need to like an anime art style for example. Many Japanese games use anime, aren't you sick of that yet?

 

[PotluckBrigand]

Maybe they read all those Western articles about how irrelevant they are and decided "Fine. We're irrelevant. Screw all y'all."

Our media has spent some time boasting about how much more awesome we are. I'd be pissed, too.

Unfortunately, while there are many of us who love Japanese games (the good ones. Never forget Sturgeon's Law), I think, based on nothing but my own observations, we are somewhat in the minority. It could simply be that from a business standpoint the cost of localization is just not financially sound, especially when they are already having so much success in Japan. If I was selling Twinkie-Wiener Sandwiches in my town and they were selling like gangbusters and I had all the money I needed to keep making them and live comfortably, I don't know that I would bother shipping them to the next town over if only one out of every ten people even wanted them.

Sorry... that analogy was a bit labored, but once I was halfway through I sure as shit wasn't going to delete it.

From my own experience as well I have noticed a precipitous drop-off in the quality of product Japan has given us in recent years (especially in games) but that could very well just be me getting old. When I was a sprout, anything with Kanji characters on it seemed AWESOME.

 

[Korten12]

I don't think Japan hates us, we hate Japan. People don't want Japanese games they want patriotic American shooters. Japanese games became a niche market for "japanopiles" to a lot of people. Probably all 12 year old who love CoD, but they're the biggest market in gaming.

Honestly, it's less about Shooters and about Western RPGs, in recent times, Bioware called JRPGs not truly RPGs, and lots of people want Japanese developers to essentially make, Western RPGs and not JRPGs.

 

[TehCookie]

I don't think Japan hates us, we hate Japan. People don't want Japanese games they want patriotic American shooters. Japanese games became a niche market for "japanopiles" to a lot of people. Probably all 12 year old who love CoD, but they're the biggest market in gaming.

Well now if you wanna say that then how do you explain that western consoles and games don't sell well in Japan. If we hate Japan because we don't want Japanese games then the same must be true in reverse to a much larger degree.

Western games are doing well over there, not as well as native games but they seem to be doing better than foreign games here. As for consoles, people like to support local businesses. I live in Flint so everyone drives a GM, they don't hate other cars they just wanted to try to help the industry (it's still shit though).

but they're the biggest market in gaming.

actually the biggest market in gaming by far is FIFA 200X, Madden 200X, Tiger Woods 200X and all that crap.

Still can't see that demographic enjoying Japanese games though.

 

[Epona]

Western games are doing well over there, not as well as native games but they seem to be doing better than foreign games here. As for consoles, people like to support local businesses. I live in Flint so everyone drives a GM, they don't hate other cars they just wanted to try to help the industry (it's still shit though).

Ok, prove it because I find that completely unbelievable. Even when Microsoft made 2 JRPG's so they could increase 360 sales the Japanese showed little interest. Why then would I believe they are buying more western games (on other consoles) than we buy of their games here?

 

[TehCookie]

I don't think Japan hates us, we hate Japan. People don't want Japanese games they want patriotic American shooters. Japanese games became a niche market for "japanopiles" to a lot of people. Probably all 12 year old who love CoD, but they're the biggest market in gaming.

Honestly, it's less about Shooters and about Western RPGs, in recent times, Bioware called JRPGs not truly RPGs, and lots of people want Japanese developers to essentially make, Western RPGs and not JRPGs.

Are the lots of people american, japanese or both? Honestly I don't think they should try to conform to the west. They should do their own thing so we can have some variety to our games. However from a corporate standpoint that doesn't make as much money, and it's always about the money.

 

[Freechoice]

As long as Capcom is still our friend, I have no problem with Japan's gaming industry being introverted.