Keep Gaming For Gamers
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Not only has Kanada514 nailed the exact point I was trying to make, he's also put it far more eloquently.
While a lot of others seem to be looking for some thin venner of controvery for the sake of it.
I'm not arguing about Hardcore / Casual. I am casual.
I'm not saying the wii is a bad thing, anything that can get families interacting again and having fun must be a good thing.
My worry is more cost = less risk. In game advertising will only be appropriate for certain games and while games that ride on the coat tails of movies or kids cartoons do sell, the fact that they do suggests the market can & will become flooded with dross.
If the economy carries on going tits up, then developers will certainly not be taking risks for some time.
While a lot of others seem to be looking for some thin venner of controvery for the sake of it.
I'm not arguing about Hardcore / Casual. I am casual.
I'm not saying the wii is a bad thing, anything that can get families interacting again and having fun must be a good thing.
My worry is more cost = less risk. In game advertising will only be appropriate for certain games and while games that ride on the coat tails of movies or kids cartoons do sell, the fact that they do suggests the market can & will become flooded with dross.
If the economy carries on going tits up, then developers will certainly not be taking risks for some time.
Agreed, but if publishers and developers go for the easy option we may not get the same level of quality titles that we did in the PS2's heyday.
Yet I lol'd.Fire Daemon post=18.72125.749005 said:
OP, I see your point, I understand it, but it's a losing battle.
First, the difference between mainstream and shitty exists. Game companies won't reach everyone just with license ports, and "gaming" games will continue to appeal dedicated gamers, who will drag friends in, and so on, so forth...
Second, and corollary to reason #1, casual people don't give a shit about deep games, they just want to stop playing cards when people come at home, hate scrabble, and want to be hip, cool and modern (and being modern means living in a white flat, dress in white and play a white console from Japan... wait whit-erm I mean what ?). Shitty games come because license tie-ins are cheap and easy to sign, Nintendo has been very lazy on the GBA, and is doing worse now. There are great titles still, but don't be fooled, laziness is the key.
Hardcore, to me, means those retards teking vidya gaems as sport or serious business, those obsessive-compulsive maniacs analyzing fightan gaems frame-by-frame to find who's got the best jumping SK, and that kind of retardation sucking all the fun out of a game...
Your comparison is basically vain to me in that "casuals" play a game like they'd chat, to kill time, and "hardcores" scorn games that are not meant to ruin your life in front of a screen becoming some kind of demigod noone cares about...
There will always be people who hate games, people who like them, and what matter is that people play. I have met video gamers who like nothing like mini-games collections, and more casual people (whose favourite past time are flash games and The Sims 2) who can nontheless sink hours into Silent Hill or Fatal Frame and emerge terrified yet thrilled and happy of the fun...
It's always the same empty controversy that leads to nowhere... Let people play, and let the snobbish rot away (and steal their consoles and money, for great justice).
Oh please!
What kind of disscussion is this?
Oh man, let me tell you my point of view:
First: Let those people alone and have there fun. Yeah i am more or less pissed that my Wii collects Dust and that quality is no meaning any more on a Nintendo Console, even if the Nintendo Franchaises still are great quality. But i will not let my days shade by a stupid hate or frustration or even the thougth that Games are the "intelligent" media. (OH GOD PLEASE, HOW STUPID IS THIS)
Second: Alone this Fall and Winter are more great, challenging and really entertaining games than ever entering the Consoles, much more than a sole gamer can play (and a teen gamer can buy ^^).
So i see there rigth now not a single reason to complain about that there is not enough for the so called "Hardcore Audience".
Third: Since my deeper going into the Hobby of playing games, which began with the start of the N64, there was always crap an every console. I mean just remember, besides the great stuff on the PSone, how much crap that console alone had running under its Name.
Let us take as example comics that were made into movies, for a long time the whole lot of them had been more or less plain crap, but what comes out now is real high quality in every way, if its the last Iron Man or the just plain amazing Dark Knigth.
The same counts on the TV Series, which i am not so much into cause i like more to act in the story through games, but series like Heroes or Jericho and so on keep me beeing interested in letting the TV on for some evenings, after a long time of TV Crap. Sometimes they are rigth now even better as some Cinema Movie(who besides the few examples suffered in the last years of low quality on a lot sides).
What i mean is; rigth now there is a lot of crap swinging with rest, but the crowd of those (i hate those names, it feels nearly wrong like rassism Oo) "casuals" will grow on there interest and, besides the fact that there ALWAYS is some crap, will start to ignore the sh#t of it which again will bring those companys to make more kompley and high quality stuff.
Fourth and last:
A lot of those who call themselfs "Hardcore Gamers" compare "komplexity and Quality" with nothing else than Graphic details instead of looking for the gameplay and fun of it.
And if there is a game that takes more credit into that, comments are often like "lol wut s that? looks laik crap! Woot".
This too is a part of your so called "intelligent media" users!
In the same Way there is NOTHING wrong with trying to keep a control scheme for an Game easy to acces and fast to understand, THIS too is a way to get away from those often far overloaded controllers.
Do not get me wrong here, i like it to control my charakter with two sticks an all the buttons available, but (as example) if a game offers in nearly every of its menus,like GTA did, an other button for getting back or off from them instead just using one button on everyone of those, than it is even stupid uncomfortable for a game that is aimed at the hardcore people and really needs an overthougth.
In this way i see just Good Things in trying to get controlls easier and more comfortable.
So, enough time lost on this.
What kind of disscussion is this?
Oh man, let me tell you my point of view:
First: Let those people alone and have there fun. Yeah i am more or less pissed that my Wii collects Dust and that quality is no meaning any more on a Nintendo Console, even if the Nintendo Franchaises still are great quality. But i will not let my days shade by a stupid hate or frustration or even the thougth that Games are the "intelligent" media. (OH GOD PLEASE, HOW STUPID IS THIS)
Second: Alone this Fall and Winter are more great, challenging and really entertaining games than ever entering the Consoles, much more than a sole gamer can play (and a teen gamer can buy ^^).
So i see there rigth now not a single reason to complain about that there is not enough for the so called "Hardcore Audience".
Third: Since my deeper going into the Hobby of playing games, which began with the start of the N64, there was always crap an every console. I mean just remember, besides the great stuff on the PSone, how much crap that console alone had running under its Name.
Let us take as example comics that were made into movies, for a long time the whole lot of them had been more or less plain crap, but what comes out now is real high quality in every way, if its the last Iron Man or the just plain amazing Dark Knigth.
The same counts on the TV Series, which i am not so much into cause i like more to act in the story through games, but series like Heroes or Jericho and so on keep me beeing interested in letting the TV on for some evenings, after a long time of TV Crap. Sometimes they are rigth now even better as some Cinema Movie(who besides the few examples suffered in the last years of low quality on a lot sides).
What i mean is; rigth now there is a lot of crap swinging with rest, but the crowd of those (i hate those names, it feels nearly wrong like rassism Oo) "casuals" will grow on there interest and, besides the fact that there ALWAYS is some crap, will start to ignore the sh#t of it which again will bring those companys to make more kompley and high quality stuff.
Fourth and last:
A lot of those who call themselfs "Hardcore Gamers" compare "komplexity and Quality" with nothing else than Graphic details instead of looking for the gameplay and fun of it.
And if there is a game that takes more credit into that, comments are often like "lol wut s that? looks laik crap! Woot".
This too is a part of your so called "intelligent media" users!
In the same Way there is NOTHING wrong with trying to keep a control scheme for an Game easy to acces and fast to understand, THIS too is a way to get away from those often far overloaded controllers.
Do not get me wrong here, i like it to control my charakter with two sticks an all the buttons available, but (as example) if a game offers in nearly every of its menus,like GTA did, an other button for getting back or off from them instead just using one button on everyone of those, than it is even stupid uncomfortable for a game that is aimed at the hardcore people and really needs an overthougth.
In this way i see just Good Things in trying to get controlls easier and more comfortable.
So, enough time lost on this.
I think the PC game guy has a point, We have literally hundreds of Bejeweled/Bookworm/Peggle type of games making millions of dollars a year, but the people who play them are generally not the ones who will rush out to buy Portal or Call of Duty 4 or even movie tie in games.
I recently installed Portal on my mother's friend's PC, who is nearly 70, as she sounded interested in trying a new puzzle game.
Sadly the whole concept of WASD and using the mouse to 'look around' was so alien to her, I had to teach her to lift the mouse and replace it in the middle of the pad to make larger turns.
It seems so simple to me, but I can understand, and to give her credit, she's persevering, although I feel when it comes to moving platforms and timed jumps she's going to have trouble. I think she's finding the whole 'moving around a 3d environment' quite interesting and new.
I think given time, some of the new wave of casual gamers will want to expand what they play, and that can only be a good thing, after all, were we all not new once?
I started out shooting space invaders, its quite a step from that to something like Startopia, or Eve Online.
I recently installed Portal on my mother's friend's PC, who is nearly 70, as she sounded interested in trying a new puzzle game.
Sadly the whole concept of WASD and using the mouse to 'look around' was so alien to her, I had to teach her to lift the mouse and replace it in the middle of the pad to make larger turns.
It seems so simple to me, but I can understand, and to give her credit, she's persevering, although I feel when it comes to moving platforms and timed jumps she's going to have trouble. I think she's finding the whole 'moving around a 3d environment' quite interesting and new.
I think given time, some of the new wave of casual gamers will want to expand what they play, and that can only be a good thing, after all, were we all not new once?
I started out shooting space invaders, its quite a step from that to something like Startopia, or Eve Online.
I'm gonna throw in a vote for easier controls too, I've had offers of joining in refused so many times because they know I'm gonna say, ok' A does this, B does this, unless you're holding R, then it does this'.
Some games need all the buttons sure, but there's a hell of a lot to be said for 'context sensetive'.
Also, Buzz was genius in its simplicity, who doesn't like quiz shows, really? Yes, I know you're far too cool to like em, but you do really. You could hand anyone who's ever seen a quiz show what is essentially a buzzer, with 4 coloured buttons on it, and they know what to do! They'll see the buttons, and the coloured answers, and you don't need to spend an hour explaining.
Some games need all the buttons sure, but there's a hell of a lot to be said for 'context sensetive'.
Also, Buzz was genius in its simplicity, who doesn't like quiz shows, really? Yes, I know you're far too cool to like em, but you do really. You could hand anyone who's ever seen a quiz show what is essentially a buzzer, with 4 coloured buttons on it, and they know what to do! They'll see the buttons, and the coloured answers, and you don't need to spend an hour explaining.
I'm long past being 'too cool' to worry about what I should and should not like.
Again this is NOT about Casual or hardcore. This is about dumbing down, an awful phrase I know, just because something is dumbed down for the masses does not dictate that that is what the masses want.
I'm really suprised at some of the vitriol to be honest. Every time something gets into the mainstream it will be diluted for mass consumption. Do you hoenstly believe that a developer that knows it can shift another High School Musical gmae is going to be remotely concerned about the next Beyond Good & Evil?
Again this is NOT about Casual or hardcore. This is about dumbing down, an awful phrase I know, just because something is dumbed down for the masses does not dictate that that is what the masses want.
I'm really suprised at some of the vitriol to be honest. Every time something gets into the mainstream it will be diluted for mass consumption. Do you hoenstly believe that a developer that knows it can shift another High School Musical gmae is going to be remotely concerned about the next Beyond Good & Evil?
SenseOfTumour: I don't really care about Buzz since I prefer Trivial Pursuit with my friends as a console-operated quizz show that costs me more than my TP board, but I have seen tons of anti-gamers turn curious when they saw me, the "hardcore obsessive gamer" who plays with a PSP buy Guitar Hero, and almost all wanted to see if they could pretend they were rocking out big time.
Turns out, they still hate me because I can play a real guitar and like "hardcorer" games (translation : I have Killzone and Atari's Transformers on PS2), plus I was the "EVIL" guy in class, but they still think Guitar Hero is awesome.
I remember when I tried WiiSports at a friend's place, we tried baseball and bowling. It was fun, and I know it's great for everyone because the focus is on fun, and that what matters.
That's also why I like Picross DS, it's fun. Even if I'm more seduced by both Megaman ZX.
And it's a shame the PSP lack good exclusives.
Turns out, they still hate me because I can play a real guitar and like "hardcorer" games (translation : I have Killzone and Atari's Transformers on PS2), plus I was the "EVIL" guy in class, but they still think Guitar Hero is awesome.
I remember when I tried WiiSports at a friend's place, we tried baseball and bowling. It was fun, and I know it's great for everyone because the focus is on fun, and that what matters.
That's also why I like Picross DS, it's fun. Even if I'm more seduced by both Megaman ZX.
And it's a shame the PSP lack good exclusives.
I think you confuse developers and editors. A developer is most likely aiming to make a great game, a beautiful game. An editor seeks money, and seeks it fast, that's why, to me, so many games were rushed because they were overannounced and overhyped, so they had to meet an unrealistic deadline.The_Deleted post=18.72125.749464 said:
And as we try to point out, license tie-ins only appeal to kids and fans, there are tons of mass media people who are very critical of these video games (I know CSI fans who hate the CSI games and toys, for instance). And you have these same mass media people who are very happy to try Guitar Hero (it's less frightening than DDR apparently), and who'd like to play Final Fantasy (I knew a girl who never played FF, but knew three full storylines by watching her boyfriend play, she liked just watching the game), they're just afraidn of being sucked in.
Ahhhh elitism.
Now, allow me to say this as a hardcore gamer.
When the hardcore asks to be catered to, it asks for the death of the thing it claims to love. Eventually, inevitably, every single hardcore gamer will be lost to time. We will get jobs, and families, or failing that we will die. Then who will be left to play games as we have been designing games that are pointlessly complex solely to scare away new players.
If you love something why wouldn't you want more people to enjoy it? No you don't actually care about games in gaming, you just want to be in something small and niche so you can claim to be better than the majority, call everything else lowest common denominator, and in general be an elitist selfish prick. And if gaming dies, you obviously don't care, you'll have a job, or a family, or you'll die either way.
Your scum.
Now, allow me to say this as a hardcore gamer.
When the hardcore asks to be catered to, it asks for the death of the thing it claims to love. Eventually, inevitably, every single hardcore gamer will be lost to time. We will get jobs, and families, or failing that we will die. Then who will be left to play games as we have been designing games that are pointlessly complex solely to scare away new players.
If you love something why wouldn't you want more people to enjoy it? No you don't actually care about games in gaming, you just want to be in something small and niche so you can claim to be better than the majority, call everything else lowest common denominator, and in general be an elitist selfish prick. And if gaming dies, you obviously don't care, you'll have a job, or a family, or you'll die either way.
Your scum.
that's assuming you had someone with real skill to play againstkanada514 post=18.72125.749803 said:
Most of us played with our dad's and little sisters.
and
*starts a slow clap*WhitemageofDOOM post=18.72125.749894 said:
bravo. couldn't have said it better myself.
I personally ignore the loads of crap casual games that are being released, they're not harming me so long as I don't play them.
What I am concerned about is some of the talk I've heard about the next console generation. Companies want to turn away from disks and go straight to downloadable content for $40, sounds good right? But here's the kicker... they want us to pay a monthly fee of, get ready for this, $9.95(US)a month with a two month commitment! That's absurd! I don't know about you, but I couldn't afford that kind of a thing, I own nine xbox 360 games and plan on getting three more before the year is out, I would be paying $89 plus $5 for my live subscription a month. If gaming goes to that dark place, I'm retreating to the safe world of my PC.
What I am concerned about is some of the talk I've heard about the next console generation. Companies want to turn away from disks and go straight to downloadable content for $40, sounds good right? But here's the kicker... they want us to pay a monthly fee of, get ready for this, $9.95(US)a month with a two month commitment! That's absurd! I don't know about you, but I couldn't afford that kind of a thing, I own nine xbox 360 games and plan on getting three more before the year is out, I would be paying $89 plus $5 for my live subscription a month. If gaming goes to that dark place, I'm retreating to the safe world of my PC.
I think once everyone has consoles like everyone has a DVD player, there'll be more effort put into making quality games for all tastes, like dvds
at least, in a perfect world...
at least, in a perfect world...
Gaming has already changed a lot in the 17 years I've been a part of it, including going further and further into the mainstream. However I still seem to find loads and loads of games that I want to play. The Wii is the ultimate example of casual gaming at this point, and through the Wii gaming is rising in popularity among non-gamers. To counter that though, this fall's lineup of games for instance is amazing. I have a list of 17 games that I will be buying before Christmas and they are all for PC and PS3. I don't have a 360 so I'm not even including the games I want that are coming out for that.
Game developers aren't so stupid as to think that since casual gaming is more popular that it means there is no longer a market for standard, "hardcore" games. They will make their casual games, but they will still make games for the traditional gaming crowd.
Game developers aren't so stupid as to think that since casual gaming is more popular that it means there is no longer a market for standard, "hardcore" games. They will make their casual games, but they will still make games for the traditional gaming crowd.