Lack of romance in games ignores the female audience
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Yup. Most well-written and voice acted male love interest in all of video games. Even as a male player your friendship and common human understanding is deep. He trusts you above all, and in the game, that means something. I can't stress how much the Alistair influence in that game changes romantic plots/sub-plots forever. It was so good, better than any male-player-character/female npc by far (including the Grey Warden/Morrigan/infertility subplot).xXxJessicaxXx said:
EDIT: The DA:O female warden/Alistair romance makes the AC and Persona games seem infantile. Even mentioning those games is a retraction of a real discussion.
I'm a girl and I hate romance usually. Romance can be good, but it's usually superficial and skimmed over, making me skeptical and therefore uninterested in the relationship. Especially when the love interest is just a shallow motivator to keep the plot moving.
Just because your girlfriend likes romance doesn't mean the rest of us do. Thanks for generalizing about 50% of the planet's population.
Just because your girlfriend likes romance doesn't mean the rest of us do. Thanks for generalizing about 50% of the planet's population.
Apples and oranges. Even if we assume video gamers and novel readers (not that they're mutually exclusive) are comparable I fail to see how romance novels being insanely popular invalidates my claim that it's wrong to assume all girls want romance in games. Maybe a lot do, but even then it's still ridiculous to claim companies are ignoring the female demographic simply because not every game has romance.Thedek said:
I don't think romance is necessary for me to enjoy a game, but it does add a little sumthin' sumthin'. If it's done well that is and isn't shoehorned in there "just because".
Can't think of any games besides Bioware games, not off the top of my head, sorry. Well, maybe the first Prince of Persia, which has already been mentioned. Various FF titles too I suppose. (*cough*I heart Zidane+Garnet!*cough cough*)
Can't think of any games besides Bioware games, not off the top of my head, sorry. Well, maybe the first Prince of Persia, which has already been mentioned. Various FF titles too I suppose. (*cough*I heart Zidane+Garnet!*cough cough*)
I'm hear there are plenty of Japanese PC games with guys being very romantically entangled for the sake of largely female audiences.
Barring those, I can't really think of any games which did romance exceedingly well, although a few did get the tension largely right (Half-life 2 and to a lesser degree Uncharted 2).
And a lack of romance isn't ignoring "female" gamers. It's ignoring gamers who like romance, a fair few of whom are bound to be guys, even though they're usually less open about it. Personally, I've only ever seen it done just right twice, but one by pointedly not going through with it, but keeping the subtle tension (Half Life 2) and the other wasn't a game (Spice & Wolf), so until games assign a larger portion of their budget to the script writers, I'm quite happy they're keeping the romance to a minimum.
Barring those, I can't really think of any games which did romance exceedingly well, although a few did get the tension largely right (Half-life 2 and to a lesser degree Uncharted 2).
And a lack of romance isn't ignoring "female" gamers. It's ignoring gamers who like romance, a fair few of whom are bound to be guys, even though they're usually less open about it. Personally, I've only ever seen it done just right twice, but one by pointedly not going through with it, but keeping the subtle tension (Half Life 2) and the other wasn't a game (Spice & Wolf), so until games assign a larger portion of their budget to the script writers, I'm quite happy they're keeping the romance to a minimum.
Not to mention romantic comedies.Thedek said:
I know not many are going to read this, but having read all the comments on my post I see there's some... assumptions... about what I'm saying.
I do not think all games should have romance. I do not want it forced in. But in the western gaming scene, romance is almost completely absent besides BioWare games, which IMO have shitty gameplay and mediocre and drawn out plots - that's just my opinion though (~30-40 hrs of DA:O, 45hrs DA2, 10hrs ME1, 0hrs ME2). But the romances in the BioWare games are not very romantic... at times, perhaps, but mostly they're not.
I also am not saying all girls want romance and bunnies and kitties. I stated that I know many girls are into the same type of games as most guys. But that doesn't mean a large (potential?) audience isn't being excluded. There's plenty of women like my girlfriend who want games with interesting stories and deep character interaction/relations above specific gameplay mechanics. Know what game my gf has been playing lately? The Sims. A series that sells insanely well - and I'd be willing to bet a very, very large chunk of people who play Sims are NOT interested in the majority of games being sold because they don't have elements that "do it" for them.
As for the "dating sim" people...
Pretty much this. Also, why should someone who really enjoys romantic plots/sub plots be forced to play such a simplistic "game"? Why can't there be more games like Assassin's Creed Brotherhood and, apparently, Persona? AC:B has a wonderful romance in it, very cute and sweet and inspiring.WaderiAAA said:Not sure that helps though. Dating sims doesn't really have a story, and I think the story is the whole point. Telling a girl who wants love stories in games to try out dating sims would be like me saying I wanted to read the sports collumn in the paper and someone handing me a football.RabbidKuriboh said:two wordsating Sim
Does every game need romance? Would CoD be better with a romance? No. But what would Uncharted 2 have been without the romantic interests? Still a fun game for sure but some of the plot points only had any meaning and impact thanks to the romance.
Obviously story writing is something that gaming is having a hard time with. So often gamers cry out for games with deep story, and hate on "mindless" games like CoD and Halo. Romance, and character relations, are difficult to get right but I think it's an important part of story telling - so many of the greatest novels in history have romance, and I think there's a reason for it. It's a very basic human nature thing, and if you empathize with a character suddenly the game (or movie or novel or play, etc) becomes a lot more engaging.
Sorry to see people attacking you so much for this...
Female gamer here, favorite game currently being Splatterhouse on the 360.
Now, that being said, yes, I do enjoy romance in a game, but I only enjoy it in the text that it's a part of a greater story, a narrative of well-constructed character interaction or at least adequate enough to pull my interest in and make me want to know what happens next. I was just as interested in the back and forth between Rick and The Mask about Rick's cheating on his girlfriend and his gradual subversion by The Mask's lure of power as I was in the relationship development between Adel and Rosalyn in Disgaea 2 (my personal fave of the series) as Adel grows to embrace his feelings for her and they both deal with the confusion of who and what Rosalyn really is.
A relationship and the tension of it's growth can be a HUGE part of a game's appeal when done right, be it romantic or a more respectful friendship, another level of love or understanding. But when a relationship feels forced or awkward, as if being acted out by drunken circus clowns (Hello Metroid: Other M, I'm talking about you) it can outright ruin an otherwise great game. This is where you end up with those games where you just want the stupid cutscene to be over with so you can go back to playing -AUGH I don't care about these people blah blah blah- general state of affairs.
Romance can be a great sub-text for practically any game, but it has to be well woven into a finer tapestry of an overlaid narrative.
To the original points- PS3 Mass Effect2- gimme some Garrus, gods he's a fox. Loyalty, strength, courage, a touch of danger, a bit of self-loathing and you get an interesting character you want to know better... maybe a romance? As for my sex- I don't feel terribly ignored, personally, just generally I feel my gender's overall belittled and misrepresented. Way too many top-heavy one dimensional "action girls" that exist purely for eye candy. .. *sighs* got kinda tired of that years ago...
Female gamer here, favorite game currently being Splatterhouse on the 360.
Now, that being said, yes, I do enjoy romance in a game, but I only enjoy it in the text that it's a part of a greater story, a narrative of well-constructed character interaction or at least adequate enough to pull my interest in and make me want to know what happens next. I was just as interested in the back and forth between Rick and The Mask about Rick's cheating on his girlfriend and his gradual subversion by The Mask's lure of power as I was in the relationship development between Adel and Rosalyn in Disgaea 2 (my personal fave of the series) as Adel grows to embrace his feelings for her and they both deal with the confusion of who and what Rosalyn really is.
A relationship and the tension of it's growth can be a HUGE part of a game's appeal when done right, be it romantic or a more respectful friendship, another level of love or understanding. But when a relationship feels forced or awkward, as if being acted out by drunken circus clowns (Hello Metroid: Other M, I'm talking about you) it can outright ruin an otherwise great game. This is where you end up with those games where you just want the stupid cutscene to be over with so you can go back to playing -AUGH I don't care about these people blah blah blah- general state of affairs.
Romance can be a great sub-text for practically any game, but it has to be well woven into a finer tapestry of an overlaid narrative.
To the original points- PS3 Mass Effect2- gimme some Garrus, gods he's a fox. Loyalty, strength, courage, a touch of danger, a bit of self-loathing and you get an interesting character you want to know better... maybe a romance? As for my sex- I don't feel terribly ignored, personally, just generally I feel my gender's overall belittled and misrepresented. Way too many top-heavy one dimensional "action girls" that exist purely for eye candy. .. *sighs* got kinda tired of that years ago...
If well done it can really add to to your bond to the NPC. On the other hand if done badly it will (like most things) really detract from the game probably even more so the male audience than the female. That said I personally rate plot a cut above game play so if done well I'm all for it.
I'm not a fan of Biowares somewhat ham handed approach to it though. More in favor of platonic love such as HL2. Probably related to me being quite asexual so I guess that puts me deeply in the minority hahaha.
I'm not a fan of Biowares somewhat ham handed approach to it though. More in favor of platonic love such as HL2. Probably related to me being quite asexual so I guess that puts me deeply in the minority hahaha.
There's always visual novels with dating sim elements though. Like this one [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.135672-Neutral-Drow-reviews-A-Drug-That-Makes-You-Dream].WaderiAAA said:
Pretty much nothing but story there. Which does however put their classification as "games" under some pressure though.
I very much doubt that elements of romance are detrimental to a female audience. If it were, I'd feel awful, but it isn't, women are people, not two-dimensional creatures obsessed with romance.
The main problem with romance in games is that games are an interactive medium. You can script romance, but to do it interactively requires an AI that can pass as human. Romantic interests that are clearly based on simple game mechanics are not very compelling.
Recommending dating sims doesn't necessarily mean, "here, those games have romance, now shut up and be happy." It could also mean that while there aren't many games with good romantic (sub) plots, you can fill the void a bit with dating sims, until more games have said plots. It's far from perfect, but better than nothing.Wolfram01 said:
No one here forces you or anyone else to play dating sims.
Also, I am currently playing Amagami on my PSP and I thoroughly enjoy it, even though I only understand 40% or so (and got heavily sidetracked by the Mahjong minigame). So I for one enjoy my dating sims.
Basically that. I hate both romance and COD clones. I wish there were more games like id's, Serious Sam, Duke Nukem, and Painkiller...Bags159 said: