Lauren Southern speaks to Feminists at "SlutWalk".

[Namehere]

Once again, for the cheap seats: Rapist are not seen as upholding the social values of the western world. Whatever other issues we have - like deciding we'd really rather like the rapist then their victim, which is an issue - don't suggest a culture of rape or rape acceptance. They suggest the need to place blame and the inability to face reality. There for, when we can not or will not accept that person 'a' is a rapist, that must mean its all the victims fault. This plays out time and again. This is not however rape culture, this is an ugly side of human nature.

Rape culture, near as I can tell, would be using shared morality to justify rape. We do a lot in the west, that isn't something we do. Rapists are not seen as morally correct. In certain parts of the world... by and large they are. Like places where if your raped you're assumed to have wanted it, which is premarital sex which is criminal in those places. After all if you didn't want it, you'd have made enough noise to attract the attention of others who would presumably intercede. Except these laws are now over a generation old and these savages enjoy going around and raping people with out consequence, so... don't know cause don't want to know. This is rape culture. This is where a complaint of rape leads to the rapist receiving nothing in terms of punishment - and more importantly control - and the victim is charged with a separate offense, sometimes capitol in nature. This certainly doesn't seem to happen, never mind regularly, in western countries.

Is the system perfect? I think we can all agree our legal systems in the west, regardless of which country, aren't perfect. I think we can all agree there is massive room for improvement in the handling of rape. What is surprising is that we can't all agree that making outlandish statements is as detrimental in the case of confronting issues legal and social with rape, as it is in terms of combating drug use. Rape culture is right up there with Refer Madness. It does NOTHING to advance the discussion on viable means that might be put in place to further prevent and manage cases of rape.

That is just creating your own definition rather than acknowledge what " rape culture" actually is.
"What is the ?Rape Culture??
Rape Culture is an environment in which rape is prevalent and in which sexual violence against women is normalized and excused in the media and popular culture. Rape culture is perpetuated through the use of misogynistic language, the objectification of women?s bodies, and the glamorization of sexual violence, thereby creating a society that disregards women?s rights and safety.

Rape Culture affects every woman. The rape of one woman is a degradation, terror, and limitation to all women. Most women and girls limit their behavior because of the existence of rape. Most women and girls live in fear of rape. Men, in general, do not. That?s how rape functions as a powerful means by which the whole female population is held in a subordinate position to the whole male population, even though many men don?t rape, and many women are never victims of rape. This cycle of fear is the legacy of Rape Culture.

Examples of Rape Culture:
Blaming the victim (?She asked for it!?)
Trivializing sexual assault (?Boys will be boys!?)
Sexually explicit jokes
Tolerance of sexual harassment
Inflating false rape report statistics
Publicly scrutinizing a victim?s dress, mental state, motives, and history
Gratuitous gendered violence in movies and television
Defining ?manhood? as dominant and sexually aggressive
Defining ?womanhood? as submissive and sexually passive
Pressure on men to ?score?
Pressure on women to not appear ?cold?
Assuming only promiscuous women get raped
Assuming that men don?t get raped or that only ?weak? men get raped
Refusing to take rape accusations seriously
Teaching women to avoid getting raped instead of teaching men not to rape"

http://www.marshall.edu/wcenter/sexual-assault/rape-culture/

All of which are abundantly present in Western society.

Redefining it and saying that doesn't exist doesn't help resolve the issue of what was actually defined as existing and being a serious issue. In order to solve a problem we first have to address that there is a problem. The victim being blamed is not only happening extremely regularly in western nations, the rapist are rarely actually prosecuted or even prevented from continuing to rape after the fact is part of the problem all the while many times the rapists, rather than the victims are defended in the community.

The last one in the long list of things that are obsolete first: 'Teaching women to avoid getting raped instead of teaching men not to rape.'

This is frankly infuriating. Take some personal responsibility for your safety and security. No shit. No. I'm not kidding. Don't respond with that crap. Take some personal responsibility for your safety and security. You will notice the period there. As to teaching men not to rape... how's that going? Maybe you should take some personal responsibility for your own safety and security.

Take precautionary measures against something, is not an endorsement of that thing. You are not burning the flag of a hostile nation, you are protecting yourself from sexual predators. That doesn't mean its okay that there are sexual predators, it means there are and you can take measures to prevent falling into their clutches. Those won't always be successful, predators can be cunning. It also doesn't mean falling prey to them is the fault of the victim, regardless of taking those measures or not. This is not victim blaming. This is rape prevention.

VICTIM BLAMING!!! This is hardly societal by and large. It happens in instances but not many. Most cases of rape are not publicized and society doesn't get the chance to blame the victim. Frankly I defy you or anyone else to go out there in public and say the victim of a rape deserved it. Tell me how many teeth you loose and at what speed. I know that's what would happen in Toronto.

TRIVIALIZING SEXUAL ASSAULT: Yea... no. No that doesn't often happen as a matter of fact. Sexual assault is one of the more serious crimes and taboos in our society. Nobody hangs out with a known rapist.

Sexually explicit jokes... Are you serious? I'm just gonna move on. That's hysteria.

Tolerance of sexual harassment: Yes workplaces often tolerate that, thus all the laws and the people fired at the drop of hat to avoid any potential law suits from victims... Are we still living in the 70s and 80s? I didn't think so...

Inflating false rape report statistics: You mean like inflating rape statistics? How many people are actually involved, directly, in collecting this statistical data? Sounds like politics to me. And it also sounds like both sides of the bench have been doing this sort of thing for awhile now. This does not a rape enthusiast culture make.

Scrutinizing the victims: When was the last time you saw this? I still have yet to see this happen in Canada. I've heard statements of an unpleasant sort from certain officials on things. But by and large that sort of conduct is seen as egregious and potentially dangerous. Once again it is not the 1970s.

Gratuitous gendered violence in movies and television... I don't even... Sex and violence sell. They always will. We will always have people obsessed with one or the other, if not both. Basic humanity there. As to gendered violence on TV? These days the biggest trope is that the bad guy is beating this or that woman - like kicking a dog in Shakespeare's age. Any 'gendered violence' isn't seen as good it's a trope and an over used moral tale on 'why not to beat your wife.' The bulk of violence on television is done towards men by men. I don't think you can counter that statement in any way. Or do you feel we need more violent women? The crime statistics do suggest that is happening so nothing to worry about there.

Defining Manhood as 'dominant and sexually aggressive': Manhood, last I heard, was by and large defined by the ability to maintain one's own life under one's own financing. In essence; getting and keeping a job with which you keep a roof over your head and can eat between pay days.

Defining womanhood as 'submissive and sexually passive.': Uh huh... refer to manhood, tack on a fuck tone of pop culture from Kill Bill to wherever. And again... IT IS NOT THE 1970s ANYMORE! I know. I know. There are still old people, and there are more of them then the young. That does not mean the young think the way the old do. Besides last I heard 'womanhood' was principally defined as being of child baring age/getting your period.

Pressure on men to 'score.': I hate to say it, because you're just going to play gatcha, but... boys will be boys. You seldom see anyone over the age of twenty-five sitting around with buds trying to outdo one another with nightly pickups. What you do see is confused and excited kids - late teens early twenties - sharing tales of sexual exploits and egging one another on while gloating about their own activities. This stops not with education, but with maturity and experience. This stops with the demystification of women and sexuality on the whole.

Pressure on Women to not appear 'cold': Um... okay? I don't even know what this is supposed to mean. Did this get drug out of the 18th century? Are we talking about 1950s interoffice politics? Mad Men?

Assuming only promiscuous women get raped: Yea. No. No that is not the popular or majority consensus assumption I don't think. And you'd have to pull out some seriously accredited statistics to demonstrate otherwise to me. I have to say so far this list is very, VERY, 1950s.

Assuming men don't get raped or only 'weak' men get raped: Do you forum? Have you not seen that massive upsets in these forums over the statement: "Men can't get raped!" Even this forum's most suspect and hard core MRA types wouldn't agree with the statement you've made. Once again, the 1950s at work.

Refusing to take rape allegations seriously: This is actually quite a difficult little statement to work with. Do you mean police and the like, or do you mean private citizens? Seems to me people take rape allegations very seriously, it's just a question of how they choose to respond that may leave something to be desired. As for the police I can't say one way or another. I don't think rape allegations are handled lightly though.

 

[Thaluikhain]

As to teaching men not to rape... how's that going?

Not too badly, actually, where this is tried and they can get it past the reactionary kerfuffle the idea kicks up.

Maybe you should take some personal responsibility for your own safety and security.

...

VICTIM BLAMING!!! This is hardly societal by and large. It happens in instances but not many.

When the automatic response is "you should have taken precautions", and this is by and large in lieu of anything else being done, that is blaming the victim. Notably regardless of whatever precautions that had been taken.

And, yes, many things on that list existed in the 50s. Society has yet to get rid of them all. Now, you can argue that they are less prevalent than they were, but that's very far from saying they aren't still around.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Once again, for the cheap seats: Rapist are not seen as upholding the social values of the western world. Whatever other issues we have - like deciding we'd really rather like the rapist then their victim, which is an issue - don't suggest a culture of rape or rape acceptance. They suggest the need to place blame and the inability to face reality. There for, when we can not or will not accept that person 'a' is a rapist, that must mean its all the victims fault. This plays out time and again. This is not however rape culture, this is an ugly side of human nature.

Rape culture, near as I can tell, would be using shared morality to justify rape. We do a lot in the west, that isn't something we do. Rapists are not seen as morally correct. In certain parts of the world... by and large they are. Like places where if your raped you're assumed to have wanted it, which is premarital sex which is criminal in those places. After all if you didn't want it, you'd have made enough noise to attract the attention of others who would presumably intercede. Except these laws are now over a generation old and these savages enjoy going around and raping people with out consequence, so... don't know cause don't want to know. This is rape culture. This is where a complaint of rape leads to the rapist receiving nothing in terms of punishment - and more importantly control - and the victim is charged with a separate offense, sometimes capitol in nature. This certainly doesn't seem to happen, never mind regularly, in western countries.

Is the system perfect? I think we can all agree our legal systems in the west, regardless of which country, aren't perfect. I think we can all agree there is massive room for improvement in the handling of rape. What is surprising is that we can't all agree that making outlandish statements is as detrimental in the case of confronting issues legal and social with rape, as it is in terms of combating drug use. Rape culture is right up there with Refer Madness. It does NOTHING to advance the discussion on viable means that might be put in place to further prevent and manage cases of rape.

That is just creating your own definition rather than acknowledge what " rape culture" actually is.
"What is the ?Rape Culture??
Rape Culture is an environment in which rape is prevalent and in which sexual violence against women is normalized and excused in the media and popular culture. Rape culture is perpetuated through the use of misogynistic language, the objectification of women?s bodies, and the glamorization of sexual violence, thereby creating a society that disregards women?s rights and safety.

Rape Culture affects every woman. The rape of one woman is a degradation, terror, and limitation to all women. Most women and girls limit their behavior because of the existence of rape. Most women and girls live in fear of rape. Men, in general, do not. That?s how rape functions as a powerful means by which the whole female population is held in a subordinate position to the whole male population, even though many men don?t rape, and many women are never victims of rape. This cycle of fear is the legacy of Rape Culture.

Examples of Rape Culture:
Blaming the victim (?She asked for it!?)
Trivializing sexual assault (?Boys will be boys!?)
Sexually explicit jokes
Tolerance of sexual harassment
Inflating false rape report statistics
Publicly scrutinizing a victim?s dress, mental state, motives, and history
Gratuitous gendered violence in movies and television
Defining ?manhood? as dominant and sexually aggressive
Defining ?womanhood? as submissive and sexually passive
Pressure on men to ?score?
Pressure on women to not appear ?cold?
Assuming only promiscuous women get raped
Assuming that men don?t get raped or that only ?weak? men get raped
Refusing to take rape accusations seriously
Teaching women to avoid getting raped instead of teaching men not to rape"

http://www.marshall.edu/wcenter/sexual-assault/rape-culture/

All of which are abundantly present in Western society.

Redefining it and saying that doesn't exist doesn't help resolve the issue of what was actually defined as existing and being a serious issue. In order to solve a problem we first have to address that there is a problem. The victim being blamed is not only happening extremely regularly in western nations, the rapist are rarely actually prosecuted or even prevented from continuing to rape after the fact is part of the problem all the while many times the rapists, rather than the victims are defended in the community.

The last one in the long list of things that are obsolete first: 'Teaching women to avoid getting raped instead of teaching men not to rape.'

This is frankly infuriating. Take some personal responsibility for your safety and security. No shit. No. I'm not kidding. Don't respond with that crap. Take some personal responsibility for your safety and security. You will notice the period there. As to teaching men not to rape... how's that going? Maybe you should take some personal responsibility for your own safety and security.

Take precautionary measures against something, is not an endorsement of that thing. You are not burning the flag of a hostile nation, you are protecting yourself from sexual predators. That doesn't mean its okay that there are sexual predators, it means there are and you can take measures to prevent falling into their clutches. Those won't always be successful, predators can be cunning. It also doesn't mean falling prey to them is the fault of the victim, regardless of taking those measures or not. This is not victim blaming. This is rape prevention.

VICTIM BLAMING!!! This is hardly societal by and large. It happens in instances but not many. Most cases of rape are not publicized and society doesn't get the chance to blame the victim. Frankly I defy you or anyone else to go out there in public and say the victim of a rape deserved it. Tell me how many teeth you loose and at what speed. I know that's what would happen in Toronto.

TRIVIALIZING SEXUAL ASSAULT: Yea... no. No that doesn't often happen as a matter of fact. Sexual assault is one of the more serious crimes and taboos in our society. Nobody hangs out with a known rapist.

Sexually explicit jokes... Are you serious? I'm just gonna move on. That's hysteria.

Tolerance of sexual harassment: Yes workplaces often tolerate that, thus all the laws and the people fired at the drop of hat to avoid any potential law suits from victims... Are we still living in the 70s and 80s? I didn't think so...

Inflating false rape report statistics: You mean like inflating rape statistics? How many people are actually involved, directly, in collecting this statistical data? Sounds like politics to me. And it also sounds like both sides of the bench have been doing this sort of thing for awhile now. This does not a rape enthusiast culture make.

Scrutinizing the victims: When was the last time you saw this? I still have yet to see this happen in Canada. I've heard statements of an unpleasant sort from certain officials on things. But by and large that sort of conduct is seen as egregious and potentially dangerous. Once again it is not the 1970s.

Gratuitous gendered violence in movies and television... I don't even... Sex and violence sell. They always will. We will always have people obsessed with one or the other, if not both. Basic humanity there. As to gendered violence on TV? These days the biggest trope is that the bad guy is beating this or that woman - like kicking a dog in Shakespeare's age. Any 'gendered violence' isn't seen as good it's a trope and an over used moral tale on 'why not to beat your wife.' The bulk of violence on television is done towards men by men. I don't think you can counter that statement in any way. Or do you feel we need more violent women? The crime statistics do suggest that is happening so nothing to worry about there.

Defining Manhood as 'dominant and sexually aggressive': Manhood, last I heard, was by and large defined by the ability to maintain one's own life under one's own financing. In essence; getting and keeping a job with which you keep a roof over your head and can eat between pay days.

Defining womanhood as 'submissive and sexually passive.': Uh huh... refer to manhood, tack on a fuck tone of pop culture from Kill Bill to wherever. And again... IT IS NOT THE 1970s ANYMORE! I know. I know. There are still old people, and there are more of them then the young. That does not mean the young think the way the old do. Besides last I heard 'womanhood' was principally defined as being of child baring age/getting your period.

Pressure on men to 'score.': I hate to say it, because you're just going to play gatcha, but... boys will be boys. You seldom see anyone over the age of twenty-five sitting around with buds trying to outdo one another with nightly pickups. What you do see is confused and excited kids - late teens early twenties - sharing tales of sexual exploits and egging one another on while gloating about their own activities. This stops not with education, but with maturity and experience. This stops with the demystification of women and sexuality on the whole.

Pressure on Women to not appear 'cold': Um... okay? I don't even know what this is supposed to mean. Did this get drug out of the 18th century? Are we talking about 1950s interoffice politics? Mad Men?

Assuming only promiscuous women get raped: Yea. No. No that is not the popular or majority consensus assumption I don't think. And you'd have to pull out some seriously accredited statistics to demonstrate otherwise to me. I have to say so far this list is very, VERY, 1950s.

Assuming men don't get raped or only 'weak' men get raped: Do you forum? Have you not seen that massive upsets in these forums over the statement: "Men can't get raped!" Even this forum's most suspect and hard core MRA types wouldn't agree with the statement you've made. Once again, the 1950s at work.

Refusing to take rape allegations seriously: This is actually quite a difficult little statement to work with. Do you mean police and the like, or do you mean private citizens? Seems to me people take rape allegations very seriously, it's just a question of how they choose to respond that may leave something to be desired. As for the police I can't say one way or another. I don't think rape allegations are handled lightly though.

Thank you for making a prime example with what is wrong with how this society views rape, and how much work still needs to be done. It provides an opportunity to educate people on the issue.


You are more likely to be targeted for rape if you dress with long sleeves and less skin showing and behave shy:

"Even though it is thought that women who dress provocatively are the most likely to be rape, studies show that women with passive, submissive personalities are more likely to get raped. These women tend to wear clothes that are concealing such as high neckline, long pants and long sleeves. This may sound ironic but, predatory men can identify submissive women by their style of dress."

http://internetwriter62.hubpages.com/hub/Through-the-Eyes-of-Criminals-Ways-not-to-be-Singled-Out


Your post is very much a part of the problem with how this is currently viewed, " boys will be boys" actually just means boys in that culture will behave badly simply because it is socially acceptable to do so here" cultures where this is not socially acceptable do not have this issue. Rape jokes just further normalizes how it is viewed, and claiming " hysteria" is just an attempt to say " nothing to see here move along" to divert and further normalize the problem. Everyone hangs out with known rapists, they are brothers, fathers, uncles, friends and other family members. They are no different than anyone else around you. They just happen to be " a regular guy" like everyone else. Simply because you are not paying attention to the world around you does not mean these things are nonexistent or anywhere hear the past. DID you bother to read any of the links above? Even a child is victim blamed in court in the US when raped by 21 males for " what she wears". OF course police and society doesn't take rape allegations seriously, they have not even bothered with testing the rape kits and have town hall meetings to blame an 11 year old child for being gang raped. Since you seem to have missed these links in the previous posts in this thread this may be helpful to you to expand your understanding:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.876717-Lauren-Southern-speaks-to-Feminists-at-SlutWalk?page=5#22063478
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.876717-Lauren-Southern-speaks-to-Feminists-at-SlutWalk?page=5#22063499

 

[Gorrath]

edited out a double post

 

[Gorrath]

That is just creating your own definition rather than acknowledge what " rape culture" actually is.
"What is the ?Rape Culture??

Interesting topic. I'd like to go through this point by point.

Rape Culture is an environment in which rape is prevalent and in which sexual violence against women is normalized and excused in the media and popular culture. Rape culture is perpetuated through the use of misogynistic language, the objectification of women?s bodies, and the glamorization of sexual violence, thereby creating a society that disregards women?s rights and safety.

The first half of the definition is nebulous at best. How does one determine whether rape is prevalent? The word draws comparison but fails to denote what the rate of rape should be compared to to be considered prevalent. If we say that rape is prevalent in western society, what society are we comparing it to to draw that conclusion? Certainly not the east where the two most populous countries (China and India) don't even consider marital rape illegal. Mid-Eastern society, where rape of women is considered by many to be a just punishment and where "she was asking for it because of how she was dressed" is taken to the extreme? How about Africa? South America? What non-western society or culture has the standard by which we are measuring this?

The other problem with this definition is that it is sexist. The whole of it is concerned only with women, misogyny and women's rights and safety. If we have a society where none of that stuff exists against women but only against men, does that society not have a rape culture? Is the rape of men of no concern when it comes to measuring rape culture? If it is, then why does the definition not account for this? What purpose does having a sexist definition serve?

Rape Culture affects every woman. The rape of one woman is a degradation, terror, and limitation to all women. Most women and girls limit their behavior because of the existence of rape. Most women and girls live in fear of rape. Men, in general, do not. That?s how rape functions as a powerful means by which the whole female population is held in a subordinate position to the whole male population, even though many men don?t rape, and many women are never victims of rape. This cycle of fear is the legacy of Rape Culture.

Please justify your claim that the mere existence of rape holds women in a subordinate position of the whole male population. If white people fear being mugged by black people even if most white people are never mugged by black people, does that mean that the fear white people have of being mugged by black people puts white people in a subordinate position to the whole black population? Would we not call that fear one born of racism and bigotry? If women fear that men will rape them, even though most men are not rapists, is that fear not born of sexism and bigotry? If you come out and tell people that their fear of black people is unjustified and born of racist bigotry, and be right in doing so, how do you excuse the same behavior when it's leveled against men?


Examples of Rape Culture:
Blaming the victim (?She asked for it!?) - Victim blaming is a huge problem and happens with a ton of crime. "Why did you leave your keys in your car?!" "You let HER borrow your phone?!" "Why was he walking around in THAT neighborhood?!" Are these examples of theft culture? If not, what is the essential difference between victim blaming in regards to sexual violence compared to any other crime?

Trivializing sexual assault (?Boys will be boys!?) - Sexual assault is trivialized for both sexes and the definitions for sexual assault are all over the place. In any case, I believe this is a huge problem. Given the definition above is solely concerned with what happens to women, is the trivializing of women's sexual assault of men not an issue?

Sexually explicit jokes - I don't agree at all. Any and all sexually explicit jokes denote rape culture? How? I can conceive of a dozen off the top of my head that don't relate to rape at all. What's more, even if we narrow the field to only incorporate rape jokes, does any jokes about any crime denote a culture of that crime? How do we untangle rape culture from "crime culture?" Is it just special pleading or is there some specific reason jokes about sex or just rape denote a culture of said crime if jokes about other crime do not denote a culture of that crime?

Tolerance of sexual harassment - Sexual harassment should not be tolerated regardless of the sex of the victim. Nor should any other harassment. Does tolerance of non-sexual harassment denote a culture of that harassment? If so, do we live in an "every kind of harassment culture?" If not, are we special pleading or, like above, is there some specific reason these rules only apply to rape?

Inflating false rape report statistics - Is inflating false rape statistics a sign of a specific culture? The inflation of any statistic to prove a point of view is, exhaustingly, commonplace, disingenuous behavior. This seems like less a part of rape culture and more something people who don't want to argue in good faith do, unless they are simply misinformed.

Publicly scrutinizing a victim?s dress, mental state, motives, and history - Dress is inconsequential and I would agree that it should have never, ever draw doubt upon a victim. Mental state, motives and history might all play a very important part in understanding and scrutinizing any legal case. To dismiss any of those out of hand, sans context, is unjustified and not at all necessarily evidence of rape culture.

Gratuitous gendered violence in movies and television - In what way? Gratuitous violence against men is far, FAR more prevalent against men in movies and TV than women due to the "expendable men" trope. In what way does this gendered violence indicate rape culture? Do you mean to say that gratuitous sexual violence against women specifically in movies and media demonstrates rape culture? Or any gratuitous violence against women? Or any gratuitous violence against anyone that's gendered? What's more, how do you determine if the violence itself is gendered at all?

Defining ?manhood? as dominant and sexually aggressive - I have a problem with defining manhood that way, though I don't see how this necessarily denotes rape culture. You could have a culture that defines manhood that way and is explicitly against rape.

Defining ?womanhood? as submissive and sexually passive - Same as above really.

Pressure on men to ?score? - Huge problem we have with socialization, to be sure. I can certainly see how this is indicative of a culture which makes men sexually aggressive.

Pressure on women to not appear ?cold? - Same problem as above. Our current culture socializes women to send messages that can be confusing to possible sexual partners. Though "being confused" is almost never an acceptable excuse for rape. I know this will likely provoke someone to respond with "No, never!" but I can easily contextualize this.

Assuming only promiscuous women get raped - Is this still a common misconception? If so, I would concede it.

Assuming that men don?t get raped or that only ?weak? men get raped - Finally a footnote for men! Though this does not jive with the definition given in the opening, I certainly DO agree.

Refusing to take rape accusations seriously - A lot of crime is not taken seriously unless there is a dead body involved or a huge sum of money. This is not indicative of rape culture, it's indicative of the failings of our executive branch to do its damned job.

Teaching women to avoid getting raped instead of teaching men not to rape" - This continues to be a false dichotomy and baseless. We do teach men not to rape, even if we put pressure on them to score. Teaching women how to avoid getting raped is no different than teaching anyone how to avoid being the victim of any crime. We do this without thought with any and all crime that isn't rape. The only time I see us claiming that teaching people how to avoid being victims is a problem is with rape. Is every class that teaches us how to avoid begin victims of any crime a form of victim blaming? Is it indicative of a culture of any other crime or are we special pleading here?

http://www.marshall.edu/wcenter/sexual-assault/rape-culture/

All of which are abundantly present in Western society.

Redefining it and saying that doesn't exist doesn't help resolve the issue of what was actually defined as existing and being a serious issue. In order to solve a problem we first have to address that there is a problem. The victim being blamed is not only happening extremely regularly in western nations, the rapist are rarely actually prosecuted or even prevented from continuing to rape after the fact is part of the problem all the while many times the rapists, rather than the victims are defended in the community.

You'll have to resolve issues with many of the examples before this will be convincing on the whole. Much of what gets attributed to proving rape culture is not used to prove any other kind of culture, at least in common parlance. Much of it seems like special pleading and some of it just seems like nonsense (sex jokes are rape culture seems ridiculous.) Most of what you say is worthy of being understood, argued about and contextualized to form a better framework by which we deal with sexual violence of all kinds. Lumping all of them together and calling it "rape culture" seems counter-intuitive and creates a bizarre equivocation of different (though sometimes related) issues of varying severity. The minute you start equivocating jokes or depictions in art with tolerating sexual assault, you're going to lose people who otherwise might want to see the same change you want to.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Please justify your claim that the mere existence of rape holds women in a subordinate position of the whole male population. If white people fear being mugged by black people even if most white people are never mugged by black people, does that mean that the fear white people have of being mugged by black people puts white people in a subordinate position to the whole black population? Would we not call that fear one born of racism and bigotry? If women fear that men will rape them, even though most men are not rapists, is that fear not born of sexism and bigotry? If you come out and tell people that their fear of black people is unjustified and born of racist bigotry, and be right in doing so, how do you excuse the same behavior when it's leveled against men?

Black on white crime is more likely to result in convictions than the other way around. Rape is unlikely to result in convictions (with some exceptions if it is black on white). Black on white crime results in anger at the perpetrator, and possibly all black people. Rapes lead to the victim being blamed. I also believe that black on white crime is rarer than rape, but not sure.

The two do not compare.

Examples of Rape Culture:
Blaming the victim (?She asked for it!?) - Victim blaming is a huge problem and happens with a ton of crime. "Why did you leave your keys in your car?!" "You let HER borrow your phone?!" "Why was he walking around in THAT neighborhood?!" Are these examples of theft culture? If not, what is the essential difference between victim blaming in regards to sexual violence compared to any other crime?

Firstly, it's much more prevalent with rapes. Secondly, it's normally the only response. There are calls to deal with theft other than "well, don't have your stuff stolen". Thirdly, rape is a rather more severe crime than theft.

By way of example, a year or two ago, at a NYE party in Sydney, a guy got king hit, and we did not hear the end of it. "King hit" got renamed "coward punched", new laws about serving alcohol late at night in Sydney were passed, ad campaigns for months, endless condemnation of thuggery. We are still hearing about it every so often. At another party, a woman was raped, it made one newspaper in which police said it showed women need to be more careful, and that was the whole media response (with no new laws passed or ad campaigns). Not to mention all the rapes since that didn't hit the headlines.

If so, do we live in an "every kind of harassment culture?"

I would argue yes, but rape is a more serious and common form than many. You could well argue that we lived in a racism culture the same way, for example.

EDIT: I know I'm only responding to a few of your points, but lil devils x can probably expand on this much better than me.

 

[Erttheking]

Take precautionary measures against something, is not an endorsement of that thing. You are not burning the flag of a hostile nation, you are protecting yourself from sexual predators. That doesn't mean its okay that there are sexual predators, it means there are and you can take measures to prevent falling into their clutches. Those won't always be successful, predators can be cunning. It also doesn't mean falling prey to them is the fault of the victim, regardless of taking those measures or not. This is not victim blaming. This is rape prevention.

And how pray tell do you propose that people do this? Hm? Only 2% of rapes are committed by strangers. The majority are by people the victim knows. So how reasonably can a woman "take measures to prevent falling into their clutches?" Avoid contact with all the men in her life? Also, added to the fact that a lot of the time rapists don't consider what they're doing rape. Because it was ok, "she enjoyed it" or "she was teasing me" or "We're in a relationship it's ok."

I mean it's not like countries like America took until the 1990s to remove laws to say that it was impossible for a husband to rape his wife in some states...oh wait no, that's exactly what happened.

 

[Grampy_bone]

You go to a protest and hold up a sign basically saying "the entire premise for this protest is bullshit", what would you expect? The whole thing reeks of gotcha journalism and antagonizing people so that you can sell their reaction for profit via a article like the above video.

Pretty much this, exactly.

I don't know what Lauren's other work is like, or what "The Rebel" is like in general, but this is the very definition of "bad faith". She's there to provoke reactions. And upon getting them, they quick cut away at the appropriate moment to tell a story. Look at this random person, temporarily at a loss for words when confronted by my antagonistic question! CUT AWAY!

There is absolutely a dialogue to be had, absolutely criticism that can be levied at fuzzy arguments. This is not how you do it. Not that it matters, there are people that will eat this shit up with a spoon, because "HURR HURR FEMINAZIS GITTIN GOT", but if you're an advocate of...I don't know...ETHICAL JOURNALISM...I don't see how you applaud this.

I'm reminded of Michael Moore's odious ambush "journalism". You're not interviewing people. You're not genuinely seeking information. You're just stirring up shit in promotion of a narrative.

EDIT: Oh Jesus Christ, I just looked at the rest of Rebel Media's playlist. Quelle surprise.

If you're not allowed to go to slutwalks to talk to feminists about their ideas, then where exactly should she have talked to them?

Provocation may be uncouth but it doesn't excuse shit. If I call you a murderer and you proceed to murder me in retaliation, you just prove my point. You are not exonerated because of my "provocation."

Meanwhile when feminists go to MRA events they scream in their faces, shout on bullhorns, and pull fire alarms, and somehow none of the men react with violence, remaining calm and composed at all times.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

If you're not allowed to go to slutwalks to talk to feminists about their ideas, then where exactly should she have talked to them?

She didn't go there to "talk to people about their ideas". She went to craft a set of carefully edited footage to push an agenda.

This was already put in here, but I'll post it again:

If I call you a murderer and you proceed to murder me in retaliation, you just prove my point. You are not exonerated because of my "provocation."

Who is exonerating whom, exactly? I'm criticizing Southern, you are attempting to exonerate her.

Meanwhile when feminists go to MRA events they scream in their faces, shout on bullhorns, and pull fire alarms, and somehow none of the men react with violence, remaining calm and composed at all times.

If you live in a world where the MRA are eternally calm and composed and feminists are eternally shouting on bullhorns and screaming in faces, then we really can't have a meaningful dialogue, because I don't live in your world.

 

[The Lunatic]

I do find a bit of humour in the argument of: Actually, it's about ethics in Feminist journalism.

I like to think some people would see comparison and realise that given how much disdain they have towards the agenda-pushing this piece could also be applied to other areas.

Probably not though.

 

[Gorrath]

Please justify your claim that the mere existence of rape holds women in a subordinate position of the whole male population. If white people fear being mugged by black people even if most white people are never mugged by black people, does that mean that the fear white people have of being mugged by black people puts white people in a subordinate position to the whole black population? Would we not call that fear one born of racism and bigotry? If women fear that men will rape them, even though most men are not rapists, is that fear not born of sexism and bigotry? If you come out and tell people that their fear of black people is unjustified and born of racist bigotry, and be right in doing so, how do you excuse the same behavior when it's leveled against men?

Black on white crime is more likely to result in convictions than the other way around. Rape is unlikely to result in convictions (with some exceptions if it is black on white). Black on white crime results in anger at the perpetrator, and possibly all black people. Rapes lead to the victim being blamed. I also believe that black on white crime is rarer than rape, but not sure.

The two do not compare.

The two do compare in the context I've given. Not everything about the two cases is the same, but the objections you raise don't constitute a reason why one set of bigotry is unjustified and the other set should be considered a framework of subjugation. What's more, you generalize too much here. You suggest by your language that all or even most cases of rape lead to anger at the victim instead of anger at the rapist. I've no idea where you derive that claim from considering rapists are considered some of the lowest form of scum in western society. I am not blind to the victim blaming that does happen nor do I say it isn't a problem but it exists in just about every type of crime there is and is not at all unique to rape (even if some specific examples of how that victim blaming manifests is unique to rape.) Hell, some would even argue that a white woman who fears a black man raping her is engaged in a form of unjustified racist bigotry. Fearing men as rapists is fine but fearing black men as rapists goes a step too far? Bigotry based in fear is still bigotry no matter who you level it at.

Examples of Rape Culture:
Blaming the victim (?She asked for it!?) - Victim blaming is a huge problem and happens with a ton of crime. "Why did you leave your keys in your car?!" "You let HER borrow your phone?!" "Why was he walking around in THAT neighborhood?!" Are these examples of theft culture? If not, what is the essential difference between victim blaming in regards to sexual violence compared to any other crime?

Firstly, it's much more prevalent with rapes. Secondly, it's normally the only response. There are calls to deal with theft other than "well, don't have your stuff stolen". Thirdly, rape is a rather more severe crime than theft.

By way of example, a year or two ago, at a NYE party in Sydney, a guy got king hit, and we did not hear the end of it. "King hit" got renamed "coward punched", new laws about serving alcohol late at night in Sydney were passed, ad campaigns for months, endless condemnation of thuggery. We are still hearing about it every so often. At another party, a woman was raped, it made one newspaper in which police said it showed women need to be more careful, and that was the whole media response (with no new laws passed or ad campaigns). Not to mention all the rapes since that didn't hit the headlines.

Can you demonstrate anything you say here? Can you show that victim blaming is more prevalent with rapes? Can you show that under normal circumstances, the ONLY response a rape victim gets is blame? I can't take those assertions seriously without some evidence to back them up; they seem like hyperbole. I will agree that rape is more severe crime than theft but that doesn't address my point about victim blaming being a far reaching response to a lot of crime, regardless of severity. Hell, if some guy gets shot down by a pier known for being a hotbed of drug activity, do you think there won't be a bunch of victim blaming going on? Questions about whether he was a user or seller? This demonstrates a cultural proclivity for victim blaming not rape culture specifically.

If so, do we live in an "every kind of harassment culture?"

I would argue yes, but rape is a more serious and common form than many. You could well argue that we lived in a racism culture the same way, for example.

EDIT: I know I'm only responding to a few of your points, but lil devils x can probably expand on this much better than me.

Well in this case we're talking sexual harassment vs other harassment and I'd not conflate sexual harassment with rape. I'm not going to accept that sexual harassment is necessarily worse than any other kinds of harassment merely because of the sexual component. I would much rather be sexually harassed by a co-worker of any sex than deal with the harassment based on my race that I faced growing up. If we live in an every kind of harassment culture, then I see a need to combat harassment, not conflate jokes or depictions in movies with sexual assault in combating a specific kind of harassment. As I said I agree with many of these issues as being issues worthy of fighting against. I think it is folly to do it in the way it's being presented here. Creating a sexist definition for rape culture and using it to attack everything from art and humor to sexual assault whilst engaging in what seem like special pleading arguments for some other issues seems an absurd and counter-productive way of doing it.

Thanks for engaging me though; always a pleasure Thal.

Edited for my jacked up quoting everywhere.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I do find a bit of humour in the argument of: Actually, it's about ethics in Feminist journalism.

I like to think some people would see comparison and realise that given how much disdain they have towards the agenda-pushing this piece could also be applied to other areas.

Probably not though.

I assume that's directed at me? I already applied it to another area in this thread.

All we have to discuss is the video, which is Southern's product. It's very difficult to address the arguments she's criticizing, because she either cuts away from them or targets the most inarticulate random she can to get a rambling sound byte.

As someone who IS concerned with "ethical journalism", how do you feel about that? No bad methods, only bad targets? Or do you concur that the way she's gone about this is kind of shady, and the video is rather worthless as a result?

 

[The Lunatic]

I assume that's directed at me? I already applied it to another area in this thread.

All we have to discuss is the video, which is Southern's product. It's very difficult to address the arguments she's criticizing, because she either cuts away from them or targets the most inarticulate random she can to get a rambling sound byte.

As someone who IS concerned with "ethical journalism", how do you feel about that? No bad methods, only bad targets? Or do you concur that the way she's gone about this is kind of shady, and the video is rather worthless as a result?

More generally that that. I mean, we have a lot of people complaining about the journalistic standards of the piece. It's kinda funny given such people have mocked the idea of journalistic ethics being something one should worry themselves with.


Myself? Well, yeah, it's a very one-sided video-piece. I think if what she claims to have happened, did happen, then that's unacceptable and the organisers of such an event should issue an apology. In regards to destruction of property, verbal abuse and harassment.

I don't really support the video, I don't much care for it honestly, it's one of so many on the internet about the issue, and it's not a particularly good one at that. I can understand why people are frustrated at the way the video shows what's going on, just in the same way I can understand why people are frustrated at what's going on in other areas of journalism.

So, yeah, it's a bad piece by a very opinionated source.

I've never claimed it to be otherwise though. I even stated in the OP that I don't much care about the whole thing.

 

[Gorrath]

Take precautionary measures against something, is not an endorsement of that thing. You are not burning the flag of a hostile nation, you are protecting yourself from sexual predators. That doesn't mean its okay that there are sexual predators, it means there are and you can take measures to prevent falling into their clutches. Those won't always be successful, predators can be cunning. It also doesn't mean falling prey to them is the fault of the victim, regardless of taking those measures or not. This is not victim blaming. This is rape prevention.

And how pray tell do you propose that people do this? Hm? Only 2% of rapes are committed by strangers. The majority are by people the victim knows. So how reasonably can a woman "take measures to prevent falling into their clutches?" Avoid contact with all the men in her life? Also, added to the fact that a lot of the time rapists don't consider what they're doing rape. Because it was ok, "she enjoyed it" or "she was teasing me" or "We're in a relationship it's ok."

I mean it's not like countries like America took until the 1990s to remove laws to say that it was impossible for a husband to rape his wife in some states...oh wait no, that's exactly what happened.

Can you link me to where you got that statistic? According to RAINN, it's 20%. Maybe a typo? I still agree that it makes the assertion that women can just take steps to avoid rape pretty nonsensical, but I feel compelled to call out bad statistics when I see them. Not picking on you, I promise.

https://rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

I do find a bit of humour in the argument of: Actually, it's about ethics in Feminist journalism.

I like to think some people would see comparison and realise that given how much disdain they have towards the agenda-pushing this piece could also be applied to other areas.

Probably not though.

So you're saying it's ironic that people are complaining about the unethical journalists rather than the abusive assholes? Or are you totally okay with the abusive assholes, but damn the unethical journalists? Which one is it? Where is the clear and obvious parallel and what are we all supposed to learn from it?

I mean, it couldn't just be that this is all just a vague mess of hard to sift through situations with no clear good guy or bad guy.

You really have not made the great gotcha argument you think you have.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

More generally that that. I mean, we have a lot of people complaining about the journalistic standards of the piece. It's kinda funny given such people have mocked the idea of journalistic ethics being something one should worry themselves with.

I can only speak for myself here, but I know when I went a-mockin', it wasn't the "idea of journalistic ethics", it was the volume and rancor with which the concept was applied to media criticism (of all things). And how it was applied. You'll note, for example, that I don't presume Southern is "unethical" because of her strong neo-conservative beliefs. Nor do I consider the existence of this video and others like it to be evidence of a vast and terrible ideological conspiracy. That's the kind of thinking I openly and cheerfully mocked.

I also don't really waste time applying rigorous journalistic standards to this kind of pandering nonsense. She has a set purpose in mind, she's fulfilling that purpose, and it will play well to her audience. She's doing her job. It was never meant to be "ethical journalism" to begin with. I don't worry about it "influencing people" or "creating a narrative" because I'm of the general belief that critical thinkers will discard it reflexively, and the people who it was made for already believe everything she's peddling. Maybe that's excessively apathetic of me, it's certainly a charge I've had levied at me before.

By the same token, I never saw much cause to rouse myself over the Sarkeesians or Gies's of the world, because I always self-selected out of listening to them after one or two slap-dash articles, but I'm constantly being pressured by antithetical rowdies into attending to their latest atrocities. I'm perpetually confused as to why. All I can ever think is "Still?".

 

[Erttheking]

Take precautionary measures against something, is not an endorsement of that thing. You are not burning the flag of a hostile nation, you are protecting yourself from sexual predators. That doesn't mean its okay that there are sexual predators, it means there are and you can take measures to prevent falling into their clutches. Those won't always be successful, predators can be cunning. It also doesn't mean falling prey to them is the fault of the victim, regardless of taking those measures or not. This is not victim blaming. This is rape prevention.

And how pray tell do you propose that people do this? Hm? Only 2% of rapes are committed by strangers. The majority are by people the victim knows. So how reasonably can a woman "take measures to prevent falling into their clutches?" Avoid contact with all the men in her life? Also, added to the fact that a lot of the time rapists don't consider what they're doing rape. Because it was ok, "she enjoyed it" or "she was teasing me" or "We're in a relationship it's ok."

I mean it's not like countries like America took until the 1990s to remove laws to say that it was impossible for a husband to rape his wife in some states...oh wait no, that's exactly what happened.

Can you link me to where you got that statistic? According to RAINN, it's 20%. Maybe a typo? I still agree that it makes the assertion that women can just take steps to avoid rape pretty nonsensical, but I feel compelled to call out bad statistics when I see them. Not picking on you, I promise.

https://rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders

Ah, my mistake, I guess I was using out of date information.

My point still stands though.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Oh hey, reasonable arguments and facts defeat frothing at the mouth fear-mongering.
How novel and unique. Brava to her.

 

[Falling_v1legacy]

I also find it comical that someone actually had the lack of common sense and the balls to boot to ask, on someone else's behalf no less, that an interview not be aired. I can't think of a time such a request would be met with anything but a blank look of disbelief from a reporter. This is admittedly a bullshit reporter, but to even ask was ridiculous.

Imagine if a public figure were interviewed and said something less then at post or even patently stupid - but for whatever reason said it - then asked the reporter to edit around it or can the whole interview? It AIN'T gonna happen. So to call the reporters behavior childish was itself childish. If only this shit was actually funny...

I don't know if people at a protest are exactly public figures- not in the same sense as someone running for office. However, this is not such a strange idea. A few months ago, Jon Stewart's Daily Show had an interview regarding (I think) cultural appropriation of Aboriginal images in sports teams. They had consent from all participants to be interviewed. However, at the point when those defending the use the imagery were brought in contact with Aboriginals, the defenders became distraught and retroactively asked to take back their consent to air the interview... and the Daily Show complied.

The timeline of the Rebel piece is hazy at best due to its editing, but I can easily see people agreeing to an interview and then afterwards found her ranting with anti-protest signs, and then feeling like they had been misled and therefore want to retract their consent. (I for instance, wonder how many new that Rebel Media was affiliated with Ezra Levant and if they would still have wanted to give an interview, given that knowledge. Rebel Media, after all has only existed since this February.)