Lauren Southern speaks to Feminists at "SlutWalk".

[senordesol]

Take precautionary measures against something, is not an endorsement of that thing. You are not burning the flag of a hostile nation, you are protecting yourself from sexual predators. That doesn't mean its okay that there are sexual predators, it means there are and you can take measures to prevent falling into their clutches. Those won't always be successful, predators can be cunning. It also doesn't mean falling prey to them is the fault of the victim, regardless of taking those measures or not. This is not victim blaming. This is rape prevention.

And how pray tell do you propose that people do this? Hm? Only 2% of rapes are committed by strangers. The majority are by people the victim knows. So how reasonably can a woman "take measures to prevent falling into their clutches?" Avoid contact with all the men in her life? Also, added to the fact that a lot of the time rapists don't consider what they're doing rape. Because it was ok, "she enjoyed it" or "she was teasing me" or "We're in a relationship it's ok."

I mean it's not like countries like America took until the 1990s to remove laws to say that it was impossible for a husband to rape his wife in some states...oh wait no, that's exactly what happened.

Can you link me to where you got that statistic? According to RAINN, it's 20%. Maybe a typo? I still agree that it makes the assertion that women can just take steps to avoid rape pretty nonsensical, but I feel compelled to call out bad statistics when I see them. Not picking on you, I promise.

https://rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders

Ah, my mistake, I guess I was using out of date information.

My point still stands though.

Honestly, I think it's a strange point to make.

Sure, that figure may not comprise the majority; but I'm sure that's of no comfort to the 2-20% concerned.

It baffles me why suggestions of preventative measures are seen as 'anti-victim'...seems to me that taking steps to make yourself a difficult target is one of the BEST things you can do. Isn't that why we have locks on our doors?

This isn't to say that it's your *fault* if something happens and you haven't taken these steps; the violator in question is still guilty of a crime --but I don't see how taking steps to ensure that you're not a victim to begin with can be considered anything other than a good idea.

What really frustrates me about arguments against preventative measures is that there's the tacit encouragement of behaviors we know will GET PEOPLE HURT. It's a system that perpetuates victims. It makes rape easier.

When bandits were a problem, the solution was a town watch; not expecting bandits not to commit banditry.

We lock our doors rather than expecting burglars not to burgle.
We hire police rather than expecting everyone to act lawfully.

Why the hell is this different?

 

[Erttheking]

Honestly, I think it's a strange point to make.

Sure, that figure may not comprise the majority; but I'm sure that's of no comfort to the 2-20% concerned.

It baffles me why suggestions of preventative measures are seen as 'anti-victim'...seems to me that taking steps to make yourself a difficult target is one of the BEST things you can do. Isn't that why we have locks on our doors?

This isn't to say that it's your *fault* if something happens and you haven't taken these steps; the violator in question is still guilty of a crime --but I don't see how taking steps to ensure that you're not a victim to begin with can be considered anything other than a good idea.

What really frustrates me about arguments against preventative measures is that there's the tacit encouragement of behaviors we know will GET PEOPLE HURT. It's a system that perpetuates victims. It makes rape easier.

When bandits were a problem, the solution was a town watch; not expecting bandits not to commit banditry.

We lock our doors rather than expecting burglars not to burgle.
We hire police rather than expecting everyone to act lawfully.

Why the hell is this different?

What behaviors? Exactly what behaviors do we encourage that lead to an increase in rapes? And what steps are so sure fire that they can prevent people from being raped by strangers to any significant degree?

Yeah well when bandits attacked a town, people don't try to argue that it wasn't a bandit attack because "The town led them on". Not exactly a great comparison.

And that's the thing that makes rape such a tricky issue to tackle. A lot of people don't realize and/or don't want to face what a problem it can be. Apparently sexual education is so bad in some parts of America that a fair chunk of teenagers think that even if a woman says no after they start having sex with them, it's not rape if they keep going. As much as people like to say that rape is one of the most hated crimes in this country, people are quick to pull "Oh that didn't count as rape". That doesn't happen with other crimes. Maybe if we tore down the culture where a man's value is measured by how many people he's fucked and are encouraged to sleep with as many women as possible, regardless if perusing them makes them feel uncomfortable, things might get a bit better.

 

[senordesol]

What behaviors? Exactly what behaviors do we encourage that lead to an increase in rapes? And what steps are so sure fire that they can prevent people from being raped by strangers to any significant degree?

That's NOT what I said.

I said "What really frustrates me about arguments against preventative measures is that there's the tacit encouragement of behaviors we know will GET PEOPLE HURT."

Arguments AGAINST preventative measures is what I have a problem with. It's akin to saying DON'T lock your doors.

Locking your doors AREN'T a surefire means of preventing burglary; but it's a damn sight better than flinging them wide open and putting all your goodies on display.

A police force ISN'T a surefire means of preventing crime; but it's a damn sight better than having no such organization to protect a community.

Just so; buying your own drinks and partying in groups AREN'T a surefire way to prevent the low instances of stranger rape; BUT it DOES make it that much harder for those so inclined.

Yeah well when bandits attacked a town, people don't try to argue that it wasn't a bandit attack because "The town led them on". Not exactly a great comparison.

"The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must." -Thucydides

And that's the thing that makes rape such a tricky issue to tackle. A lot of people don't realize and/or don't want to face what a problem it can be. Apparently sexual education is so bad in some parts of America that a fair chunk of teenagers think that even if a woman says no after they start having sex with them, it's not rape if they keep going. As much as people like to say that rape is one of the most hated crimes in this country, people are quick to pull "Oh that didn't count as rape". That doesn't happen with other crimes. Maybe if we tore down the culture where a man's value is measured by how many people he's fucked and are encouraged to sleep with as many women as possible, regardless if perusing them makes them feel uncomfortable, things might get a bit better.

And again, that's NOT what was being discussed. What was being discussed was an inclination to argue AGAINST preventative measures --the strange idea of potential victims doing *what they can* (again, assigning no fault) to prevent their own victimization is somehow exploitative.

Such thinking empowers the criminals and disempowers the most vulnerable.

 

[Namehere]

Take precautionary measures against something, is not an endorsement of that thing. You are not burning the flag of a hostile nation, you are protecting yourself from sexual predators. That doesn't mean its okay that there are sexual predators, it means there are and you can take measures to prevent falling into their clutches. Those won't always be successful, predators can be cunning. It also doesn't mean falling prey to them is the fault of the victim, regardless of taking those measures or not. This is not victim blaming. This is rape prevention.

And how pray tell do you propose that people do this? Hm? Only 2% of rapes are committed by strangers. The majority are by people the victim knows. So how reasonably can a woman "take measures to prevent falling into their clutches?" Avoid contact with all the men in her life? Also, added to the fact that a lot of the time rapists don't consider what they're doing rape. Because it was ok, "she enjoyed it" or "she was teasing me" or "We're in a relationship it's ok."

I mean it's not like countries like America took until the 1990s to remove laws to say that it was impossible for a husband to rape his wife in some states...oh wait no, that's exactly what happened.

Oh well then it's hopeless, since I don't have all the answers.

EVERYONE! EVERYONE! I'm sorry. I don't have all the answers, and I don't control the laws in my country never mind one foreign to me, so you now have to stop attempting to prevent yourselves from being raped in ways you find acceptable. As its possible for you to be raped by a spouse, relative or friend, you mustn't put up obstacles to strangers who might utilize date rape drugs and the like. Sorry! Sorry about that! I now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

Tell me: would you prefer to serve in an active combat area outside of a so-called 'bullet proof vest' or 'flack jacket' because they don't stop 'all' ammunition, or would you still utilize one? Are flack jackets a waste of US tax dollars? Is a nail polish that changes colour when it contacts date rape drugs in a drink being offered to you a waste of money and development? How many lives does that development have to save, how many rapes prevented, before it isn't just an apology?

And by chance did you have anything else to refute a single thing I said? Anything at all... except a disputed statistic? And please note, I didn't say preventative measures stopped all rape. They just prevent some of it. Is 'some' not enough to justify those measures? Or does the concept of 'rape culture' eliminate all rape provided other previous measures to limit rapes are removed?

If you wanted to address the context of my statement within that particular post, be my guest.

 

[Namehere]

As to teaching men not to rape... how's that going?

Not too badly, actually, where this is tried and they can get it past the reactionary kerfuffle the idea kicks up.

Maybe you should take some personal responsibility for your own safety and security.

...

VICTIM BLAMING!!! This is hardly societal by and large. It happens in instances but not many.

When the automatic response is "you should have taken precautions", and this is by and large in lieu of anything else being done, that is blaming the victim. Notably regardless of whatever precautions that had been taken.

And, yes, many things on that list existed in the 50s. Society has yet to get rid of them all. Now, you can argue that they are less prevalent than they were, but that's very far from saying they aren't still around.

You seriously want to go this way? You want this discussion? I don't think you really do.

If teaching men not to rape is exclusively the answer, then in a generation we anticipate the problem of sexual assault and rape to be done away with? Is the concept of the 'sexual predator' a myth? There are no humans with that mentality?

And you acknowledge that strides have been made to improve everything listed? Then what are you complaining about? Is steady progress not progressive enough for you? Shall we kill the old to eliminate their ideologies from muddying modern legislation, would that help? What is it that you want? How does the concept of 'rape culture' help to advance that steady progress? Or does it make you seem like a reactionary? Or just generally disaffected? Does society humor the disaffected with the changes they ask for in general? Come now, you know the answer to that don't you? Why don't you work within a functional system, by your own admission, instead of trying to tear it down?

Your instance that some few - presumably in this instance judges and professionals within law enforcement - use some people taking precautions as a sign that those who don't were seeking or deserved rape, as a reason others should not take precautions if they see fit, is absurd. You are martyring people for other people's stupidity - and to avoid gotcha, that would be the judiciary's stupidity, just to make sure you aren't attributing the worst to every single word I type. What is wrong with you? Seriously! There are problems with judicial officials. Don't swap them out though. Don't complain about that conduct. Make sure nobody takes precautions so that if someone is raped who didn't that can't be held against them. That's the answer!

Tell me, do you feel confident that were you murdered tomorrow, the courts wouldn't hold it against you that you didn't have a hired body guard while trying your suspected killer? Do you think victims of rape should be entitled to the same treatment? How in the hell does advocating men and women not seek to secure themselves against rape see that goal arrived at? Give your head a shake already! If that is such a massive problem, and it doesn't seem to be a massive and growing but rather a minimal and ever diminishing issue, then surely the answer lies in judicial reform not leaving men and women wholly defenseless!

Are you seriously discussing this issue or what? You've already equated the inability of police to accumulate sufficient evidence with states that refuse to avow actions as criminal. What other ridiculousness have you to throw out? This is pedantic stuff man! Pedantic! And before you ask that would be in relation to where you suggested it wasn't uncommon in North America for rapists to not be imprisoned or more over successfully convicted. It was nice of you to give on the idea that we generally don't press charges on those who claim to have been raped, never mind capitol offenses. So what other absurdities do you think the world should live by? What atrocities do you welcome as a change of pace?

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

...Sure. Why not.

And uh, what obstacles are those? You still haven't really provided any answers. So don't get mad at me for not liking your answers saying "obstacles you are comfortable with" when you haven't even put anything up. In other words, kindly answer the question.

Uh-huh. Because that's totally comparable to what we were talking about. Look, when you suggest something as clear and cut effective as a flak jacket, then you can play "Gotcha" with me. Not before.

Well everyone else seems to have done a good job pulling apart everything else you said, but since you insist. Boys will be boys...what a crock of shit. Boys will be boys is basically saying "Welp, watcha gonna do" and not trying to solve the problem at all. And no one over 25 does it, yeah, I beg to differ. That's something rooted in our culture. Not our DNA. It can be changed. And no, I was pointing out a massive flaw in your argument, namely that only a minority of rapes are committed by strangers. The rest are people the victim knows. So how do we prevent those rapes? That is the question I asked you. You have yet to answer me. Oh, and I said nothing about all rapes, so I don't know why you brought it up.

Well, if you insist

Victim blaming. Most cases aren't publicized. Because there's a connection. Most rape victims are too ashamed to come forth BECAUSE of victim blaming.

Trivializing sexual assault: They will if they don't consider that person to be a rapist. A lot of times, people who rape aren't considered rapists. And if rape is one of the most horrifically considered crimes in America, why are the conviction rates so low?

Statistics, no comment

Scrutinizing the victim. Two years ago. Maryville Two football players raped a girl and the entire town tried to hush it up, with one of the mothers of the boys even brow beating the girl into staying quiet. Things only got solved because Anonymous came down on the town like a hammer. Oh, and her house got burnt down. http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/10/14/2777431/maryville-missouri-rape/

Gratuitous gendered violence in movies and television: No. Sex and violence don't sell. The Slaughtering Grounds was violent. Showgirls had sex. The former bombed while the second barely made its budget back. Also comics regularly featured bit tittied women yet rarely sell above five figures. Saying violence and sex sell is a massive oversimplification and really is the same mindset that has caused so many bombs recently. Blades of Time had a nice sexy woman and it bombed, because you need more than sex to sell something. Can't say I see that many examples of that. A few here and there like Game of Thrones or Vikings, but not really. Christ even recently on better call saul, Saul commits what is effectively rape by fraud (When you have sex with someone based on the concept you say you're someone you're not, it's a thing, you go to jail for it) and no one bats an eye at it. Yes. Because women are still seen by many as too weak to fight.

Defining Manhood as 'dominant and sexually aggressive': Guess you and I heard different definitions then. One of the things I was always taught was men had to uphold to certain ideals. Namely, not showing that much in the way of emotions. Oh and the sex thing, that was a big thing for me. Just because you weren't exposed to it doesn't mean it doesn't have a great impact on culture.

Defining womanhood as 'submissive and sexually passive: Yes I know it's not the 1970s, I know how to read a calendar. But you know, if all the crap with American cops taught me anything it's that the passage of time doesn't mean the removal of problems. Slut shamming is still a massive thing, as is the Madonna Whore complex. Womanhood is...no idea where you got that from.

Pressure on men to 'score.': See above for why I consider that to be a crock.

Pressure on Women to not appear 'cold': If a woman isn't warm and cuddly she's a ***** in the eyes of many. Bit of a problem really.

Assuming only promiscuous women get raped: I'd like to know why insults that suggest otherwise get thrown around during times of rape then, see the link I gave you. Also is it 1970s or 1950s? You're jumping back and forth a lot.

Assuming men don't get raped or only 'weak' men get raped: And the Escapist is also pro-gay marriage, that doesn't mean anti-gay marriage doesn't exist. Let's be real, the Escapist is a very small community compared to the world at large. We do not reflect the views of the world at all.

Refusing to take rape allegations seriously: Rape convictions are depressingly low, actually.



http://theenlivenproject.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/rapist_visualization_03.jpg



Also there's a major backlash about false accusations of rape (I would like to point out the "Don't be that girl" campaign where there was a massive assumption women cried rape just because they regretted a night of sex)

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Ok, I'll rephrase the question. What behaviors are we discouraging?

Ah...seems a bit like covering a massive gaping wound with a band-aid. I'm not saying it never helps, but I kinda doubt it prevented that many rapes. As it was established before, the majority of rapes aren't by a stranger, so this method is really focusing on the minority incidents, it's like only a solution for robberies where it only focuses on incidents where they broke through the second floor window. Not to mention it says things about our society if going to bars with friends is like locking your door at night. And I'm gonna be honest, focusing on bar rapes sounds like we're only focusing on really stereotypical rapes. Rapists don't exclusively lurk in bars and dirty alleys.

Ok, a quote. And?

Like I said, these solutions don't really sound like they would prevent that many rapes.

 

[senordesol]

Ok, I'll rephrase the question. What behaviors are we discouraging?

Being safe. Being aware. Recognizing and understanding what situations will make a person vulnerable and acting accordingly.

Ah...seems a bit like covering a massive gaping wound with a band-aid. I'm not saying it never helps, but I kinda doubt it prevented that many rapes. As it was established before, the majority of rapes aren't by a stranger, so this method is really focusing on the minority incidents, it's like only a solution for robberies where it only focuses on incidents where they broke through the second floor window. Not to mention it says things about our society if going to bars with friends is like locking your door at night. And I'm gonna be honest, focusing on bar rapes sounds like we're only focusing on really stereotypical rapes. Rapists don't exclusively lurk in bars and dirty alleys.

You say 'focusing', I say 'something that can be addressed easily'.

I'm not talking about applying one method and calling it 'fixed', I'm talking about applying simple solutions, where appropriate, to an otherwise complicated problem as a fix that can be addressed immediately. Even though it may be a minority, preventing 'not many' is still better than 'none at all'. Surely that's a step in the right direction.

Ok, a quote. And?

You said "no one suggested the town was asking for it". That quote contradicts that sentiment and is fairly indicative of attitudes applicable to both the ancient world and today.

Protecting one's self and valuables is basic. There will ALWAYS be someone out to hurt you. You'll get nowhere trying to "wish" them away, but you WILL get somewhere by taking action on your own behalf.

This is why we lock our doors, hire police, and take care when interacting with strangers.

Like I said, these solutions don't really sound like they would prevent that many rapes.

Then why is your proposed solution to prevent 0?

Look, it's not that I don't get that it isn't the majority. What I don't get is suggesting that people take measures to protect themselves where they can constitutes 'victim blaming'.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Is that really being discouraged? I'm pretty sure what's being discouraged is the idea that everything hinges on that.

I disagree that even this can be handled easily. Well yeah a step, but I kinda feel like it was a step already taken.

Not exactly. The point I was trying to make is that people don't react to it in the same way. If a town got raided by bandits people would go in and rebuild. They wouldn't coddle and defend the bandits, which is something that happens with rapists, which is what I was getting at. I don't think anyone was advocating wishing problems away.

Where did I say that. I suggested tearing up the culture that I thought was at the root of the problem.

Because most people don't phrase it like that. And that's all they say. And they act like if a woman gets raped it's her fault because "She should've had friends/not gotten drunk/not dressed like that". I don't think people just advising caution get slammed with victim blamming.

 

[Namehere]

To the first point: Flack jackets aren't clearly effective. The argument was about whether or not preventative measures on the part of an individual were in fact appropriate. Not efficacious. I say they are. I say that it's shameful that the team that developed a nail polish that when dipped in a drink changes colour if there's any common date rape drugs in that drink, were accused of being rape apologists. The concept is applied to all efforts to combat rape through active prevention on the part of potential victims. That is fucked up. If you don't agree say so. But I think that's fucked up and nothing in the world will change my mind. This would also include things like going out with friends, and not alone. Conventional methods of preventing yourself from being in dangerous situations. You want real solid solutions, phone a rape prevention hotline, they'll give them to you. I'm not a professional. I don't think you can question that there are in fact methods of reducing the likelihood of being raped. I'm neither a woman nor a beauty, I'm a male of diminutive figure and grim nature - often the oddest man in the room. Rape has never been a concern for me. Sometimes homicide, but not rape.

So what your saying is victim blaming doesn't happen because people are afraid it will happen? I'm sorry I'll need a more solid answer out of you then that.

As to the 'boys will be boys' part, perhaps better stated 'trivializing sexual assault': It isn't often trivialized. And when it is it is not an effort to endorse rape but to protect organizations where in which a rape occurred. Sports teams are an ideal example of this. Has the US military been disbanded or even publicly shamed for its rapes? Don't feel bad, neither has the Canadian Armed Forces. In the case of my country's armed forces you have a lovely example of systemic rape culture, right down to alleged orders from officers to NCO's to rape enlisted personnel. Orders that were apparently regularly issued. Then of course there's just your run of the mill rapists. This idea of calling the world I live in a rape culture, while that goes on outside of it, is an offense. Its offensive. In the army expect to associate with people who may well be rapists. In civilian society one doesn't expect that. And when one finds out one is associated with such an individual there is generally a rapid disassociation. Or do you regularly associate with known rapists? I don't and my friends and associates won't. But I wouldn't want to speak on your behalf. But unless you do, you'd have to show me people who don't think sexual assault is one of the biggest taboos short of being a murderer. Remember this was about diminishing sexual assault not 'boys will be boys'. I haven't heard that in regards to a case of sexual assault in my life time. Have you? Of course your American. A country where a drive cross town goes from first to second finally third world. This isn't meant as an insult just an ugly reality. There is a level of development outside of the united states that might surprise you. I say this as just this evening I was reminded of it and how it might shape an individuals perspective on the rest of the world. Canada does not function in that manner nor do most western countries, that is by and large a trait unique to the US.

As for the victim scrutiny... Was this about supporting the idea the girl deserved her fate, really? Or was this about preserving the football team. These different ends are important in this discussion. I don't mean at all to imply that preservation of the team at such expense was correct or morally right in any way. But an effort to preserve the team at all costs is just that. That is not a defacto endorsement of rape.

As for your upbringing... I'd apologize I guess, but I graduated in the very Roman Legion sense. My primary fixation was always survival and violence. Much like a dog detailed to EOD I should just be glad to be here. Sadly human. So I am not glad to be here and find those who focus on sex to be boring. Perhaps I'm too traditional. I don't express my emotions often if at all possible not to. Of course emotions are a window into you, why expose them, why put your heart on your sleeve? But then that isn't a trait I'd advise to men, but to humans on the whole.

So again, even the term 'submissive and sexually passive' isn't really applicable anymore. Is any of this idea of rape culture based on modern society? I'm serious. So far you've given me a bunch of one offs and 'so it's a little better...' Well change is change. If things have change and this theory is based on things before those changes, is not the theory necessarily in need of a dramatic overhaul and update? Could not one be forgiven for thinking it sounds like bullshit? After all even you, whom seem to embrace it, don't seem to think its bang on. As for women being submissive and sexually passive... okay bud, you tell her and I'll watch from over here in Canada. Don't worry, I'm sure even at this distance I'll see the fire works.

As to the 'pressure to score' issue: I'm always pleased to be able to tell my other friends that I have a Tank as a friend. You did come out of a vat yes? You were fully grown and implanted with false memories of a child hood then hatched around twenty? No? Then how in the hell don't you remember being immature? Well its all right, someday you might have kids and they'll remind you that no matter how much the old keep telling them not to be young, they cant help it. Young is young. Inexperienced and excited by the world they're learning about is going to be an ongoing issue until we're all vat grown and pre programed. Sorry for the let down.

Oh! That one. That one that... doesn't matter? Lets assume your female boss does appear cold. Are you going to pressure her? Or your colleague for that matter! That's a good plan, make the chick you think might just be a ***** out to hurt people, target you and with free ammunition! I realize people are stupid but that's really pushing the limits. I did know a boy once who ran down a line of parked cars pissing and managed to hit a squad car waiting at the lights. But I doubt that's much more common then 'pressuring' women not to appear 'cold.' And I really don't think its any safer or smarter.

As to jumping between the 50s and 70s. In general a lot of problems were shown to exist in the fifties and cleaned up between then and the 70s. In the 70s there was a new wave of analysis - also latte 60s. A sort of 'how far have we come' deal. Fair enough really. With that said certain issues were put on the back burner and others took the forefront due to the change of general circumstance. You will find issues frequently discussed in the eighties and nineties vanished until recently because they had been addressed at that time. Thus the jumping. Nothing you said there suggests that there is a general perception that women who are raped dress smuttily or deserve it either in the courts or public opinion. You haven't even provided a link to suggest as much. Or is this on par with the simian savages who run around yelling 'FHITP' at female reporters? You do understand such individuals do not represent a broad cross section of civilized society, yes? It isn't really all that common for people to think its a great plan to insult to supposed victims of rape, or hadn't you guessed at that? And those few who do have diminished dramatically since it's highlighting... some where round the 70s or 80s.

I consider my answer, based on the manner of statement put forth by Lil Devil, perfectly acceptable. Taking the Escapist as a community, it is obvious that there are few if actually any individuals willing to vocally support the idea that men can't be raped. The few people I've ever heard voice that opinion were doing so in public forums and often portrayed themselves as socially progressive. Grim business, to say the least. They're on par with those social progressives who 'feel' that white people can not be exposed to racism from minorities because of their position of over all power. Do you think many radical feminists are rapists? I have to admit I find that notion far fetched. I also find it hard to believe they could be accused, even given their grievous statements regarding many issues and individuals, of supporting 'rape culture.'

The absence of rape convictions as a result of insufficient evidence, is not evidence of a great conspiracy to free rapists. It is evidence of a need for further resource allocation to sex crime units and new developments in both forensic and general investigative techniques.

Finally... I refer you to bad reporting among other things. It was well known twenty years ago that false reports of rape made it harder for victims of rape to come forward then failed prosecutions. They faced multiple levels of scrutiny that might otherwise have been reduced. Humanity is by and large not a trusting species. There have been several high profile apparently false reports in recent times. And lets not forget, sexual assault and rape are highly taboo crimes in our society. The allegation alone is exceptionally tainting to an individual. The general fear about being even accused should actually lighten your heart. Do you think tribal savages care if you accuse them of rape? They face no consequence. Here people do face consequences and more then simply legal. A person can loose their whole family under such circumstances. Doesn't sound like a rapist loving culture to me.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

What? You couldn't properly reply to me?

If they weren't clearly effective, I don't think the military and police would buy so many. Stuff is expensive.

Ok some people got called something. Some people go nuts with this stuff, I'm not proud of it. Like I said before, while these things help, I feel like they're not exactly sure fire options. Getting drugged and rapped at a bar is a complete and utter stereotype, just like being rapped in a back ally. They happen but for some reason some people treat it like those are the only places it happens So frankly the flak jacket vest doesn't really work for me as flak jackets are a hell of a lot more effective. There are methods? Ok...what are they? And to what rate do they decrease rape.

Happens all the time. Rape victims keep quiet about being raped because they think it's their fault. Self blaming is a huge thing with rape victims and I feel confident in saying that victim blaming played a hand in it.

http://www.pandys.org/articles/selfblameandsurvivors.html

Ok, I'm not really sure how protecting the organization while trivializing sexual assault makes it any better. If anything it makes it worse because those organizations are commonly idolized and them being defended sends a hell of a message to society at large. You're offended. Ok. And? Football teams were civilians last time I checked. No I don't, but "I don't see it, therefore it doesn't exist" isn't a mindset I subscribe to as I also don't witness police brutality against blacks. I've said it before and I'll say it again. People are very good at pulling "Oh that didn't count as sexual assualt". It's fitting that you bring up murder, because that has a lot of perfectly ok categories too. If someone who has it coming gets murdered, people don't bat an eye. And sadly in massive parts of the world, "she had it coming" is accepted. Then again sexual education is so poor in some parts of America that a large portion of people think if they're aroused and having sex, they don't have to stop if a woman says to. That's rape, but they don't THINK it's rape. Plus rape is very hush hush, rapists don't exactly proclaim their status at the top of their lungs, so it's a tangled thorny mess. Plus there's that whole thing about schools hushing up rape.....Heh...hehehehehehe. Buddy. If you ever have to say "This isn't meant as an insult" take my advice go back and think about why you had to say that. A drive across town goes to the third world? Oh yeah, I remember every day I had to go to school through the 3rd world sector, had to duck down to avoid the AK-47 fire. A drive across town...what in the ever loving fuck is that supposed to mean? Or are you claiming Canada is a perfect utopia where rape has been abolished because I KINDA DOUBT IT! Because, well look at this.

http://www.sexassault.ca/statistics.htm

http://www.wavaw.ca/mythbusting/rape-myths/

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/been-raped-never-reported-why-90-of-sex-assault-victims-stay-silent-rather-than-face-trial-by-ordeal

Rape happens in Canada too! Who knew!

Yes, the US has a lot of problems I don't deny it. But if you're implying that it is the only 1st world country that has a problem with rape, then that's a high horse you don't deserve to have. You think your culture is immune from the bullshit that goes on here? Oh you are SADLY mistaken. Because apparently only 6% of rapes in Canada are reported. A statistic that's even worse than America, where 32% of rapes are reported.

https://www.rainn.org/statistics

So... get off the high horse.

The two go hand in hand. It's protecting the football team, the girl is a threat to the team, so as a threat she deserved it. That seems to be how these things go.

Survival and violence...uh...no comment. You know, every single time I bring up the problem of not showing your emotions people say "Why wear your heart on your sleeve" You know, you don't have to pick between being completely stoic and letting. out every last emotions you feel.

Yeah it is. Or does slut shamming or the madona whore complex not exist where you come from? Women are still called sluts for having sex with more than one person. You say it sounds like bullshit, but frankly the only thing you really have to back that up is that you don't agree with it. I've done research into this matter, looked up cases, looked up statistics, done research for an instance of rape I'm going to write about in a story. It's not about what I embrace. It's about what I know and what the facts I look up say. I'll happily change my viewpoint if you bring cold hard facts to the table. You have yet to do so. I said that this was an idea that was alive in culture, I never claimed it was the ONLY idea. Conflicting ideas can exist you know.

Because of all the things my dad taught me, he taught me to not have sex until I was ready. And guess what? I'm 21 years old and I've never kissed a girl. I know, first hand, that kids can be taught to not run off and fuck everything in sight. I guess I came out of a fucking cloning vat.

According to whom. Here's the thing, women actually struggle to get into high ranking leadership positions. It's called glass ceiling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_ceiling

And part of the reason is that a woman who gives orders is seen as "Bossy". Yeah, that's not exactly what I was suggesting, but considering how often you seem to stereotype and simplify what I say I'm not surprised you did. Simply put, in a lot of places women are not taken seriously in positions of power. Mainly because there isn't that many and because of the increased stress on the few that are there. Plus women are disuaded very early on in their lives from being bossy. Oh yeah and there's the whole thing where I wasn't talking about being bossy meaning being an ACTUAL boss, so you went off on an unrelated tangent.

I'm guessing you never did much prodding into social media when it comes to rapes. If you do, I suggest you brace yourself, you get a lot of utterly vile stuff. Also there's this

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/17/survey-finds-one-in-five-believe-women-partly-responsible-for-if-drunk

And this

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-369262/Women-blame-raped.html

And this

http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/women-rape-victims-partly-blame-new-survey-article-1.198687

And, the one I find the worst, this

http://www.lisashea.com/lisabase/womensissues/whenisrapeok/

http://www.lisashea.com/lisabase/womensissues/whenisrapeok/whenisrapeok.jpg

Enough links for you?

Well your answer, bluntly put, isn't acceptable. Very few people on the Escapist are happy about DLC practices, yet they're commonly still accepted. No one has happy about Rockstar's steam sale scheme, but plenty of people on the Steam forums are defending it. We do not represent the views of the world and there's just no wiggling around that.

I never suggested that there was. Of course you miss the point when only a quarter of rapes even go to court in the first place. In some places even lower

I know we're not trusting. And it says a lot about us that so many of us would rather assume a woman is lying about rape. And despite them being taboo, many people still think it's the victim's fault. It doesn't matter how taboo they are if so many cases never get reported. Rape culture =/= rape loving. Never claimed it did. I'm more of the mindset that people like to hush it up and ignore it. And they do. All. The. Time.

You know after the comments you made about my country...I'm not entirely sure I want to continue this conversation with you.

 

[one squirrel]

snip

Refusing to take rape allegations seriously: Rape convictions are depressingly low, actually.



http://theenlivenproject.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/rapist_visualization_03.jpg



Also there's a major backlash about false accusations of rape (I would like to point out the "Don't be that girl" campaign where there was a massive assumption women cried rape just because they regretted a night of sex)

Wow, this is a real gem, way to understate the probability of a false accusation. The group "falsely accused", 2 figures represent 2% false allegations out of 100 reports (let's, only for the sake of the argument agree on the 2% number). I we assume, as it follows from the graphic, 2 out of 102 reports are false, that would mean the total number of rapists is 20 too high. That would mean there would have to be an other group of 18 figures representing the 1.8% of 1000 "virtually wrongly accused men".

An that's not to talk about the other flaws of the graph, like how would one know what percentage of never reported rape cases would actually hold up in court. And how do they come to still listing the not convicted in the "rapist" category?

 

[Thaluikhain]

I've no idea where you derive that claim from considering rapists are considered some of the lowest form of scum in western society.

In theory. In a vague, nebulous, sense, yes, if you ask someone "what do you think about rapists?", you'll get an answer like that.

In reality however, things tend to be rather different. Lots of people that think rapists are scum in the general hypothetical sense are still fans of people like Mike Tyson, Roman Polanski and so on. Hell, there were celebrity activists campaigning to end rape that would happily work with Polanski. He's had a long and successful career after raping a 14 year old. Likewise, I'm certain that if you asked the town of Steubenville what they thought about rape before the much publicised rape, more or less everyone, rapists included, would have said that rape was wrong, and meant it. When it actual mattered, however, things were very different.

In part I believe that it's because rapists are considered scum (at least nominally). Only, the logic goes, "he's not scum, therefore he's not a rapist" rather than "he's a rapist, therefore he's scum". People keep being shocked when it's not some scary looking bloke lurking in alleyways committing rapes against strangers, because that's the way it should happen. People can keep hating rapists, but denying each individual is a rapist for some reason or other.

Bigotry based in fear is still bigotry no matter who you level it at.

Well, if you are going to phrase it like that, I guess so.

However, the reasons for that fear are very different. Women are afraid of men, in large part because they are repeatedly told to be, including by men. When rape prevention is more or less solely down to victims, when the victim more or less inevitably gets blamed, it boils down to saying that men are just inherently prone to rape, and nothing can, should or will be done. I don't see black people going round telling white people "You should be careful around us, we tend to be thugs and won't stop".

Can you demonstrate anything you say here? Can you show that victim blaming is more prevalent with rapes? Can you show that under normal circumstances, the ONLY response a rape victim gets is blame? I can't take those assertions seriously without some evidence to back them up; they seem like hyperbole.

Not off the top of my head, though lil devils X has been posting a lot of links around the issue.

Hell, if some guy gets shot down by a pier known for being a hotbed of drug activity, do you think there won't be a bunch of victim blaming going on? Questions about whether he was a user or seller? This demonstrates a cultural proclivity for victim blaming not rape culture specifically.

I disagree. Sure, I'd not be surprised if the victim was blamed in that case. But I'd also not be surprised if there were calls to do something about guns on the street, clamp downs on illegal gangs, drugs laws, questions about what the police are doing and so on. Normally they'd not get past victim blaming in cases of rape.

In both cases there might be victim blaming, but it'd likely be it and nothing else for rape.

If we live in an every kind of harassment culture, then I see a need to combat harassment

Certainly, but there are different forms of it, and they work in different ways.

 

[Namehere]

I gave you my answers. The format was obviously good enough for you to get them. Reply was good enough.

There isn't much left to say. You didn't bother to consult a rape prevention hotline/center, and I am not one.

Even now there are still people arguing your statistics. Whose are right, whose are wrong?

The military invested heavily in the Patriot Anti-Missile system. You can watch it with CNN in operation over Israel. Hundreds were launched to prevent SCUD missile attacks, they all failed. Epic fail, on television, with a reporter too ignorant of what all the flashing in the sky meant to realize each launch was a failure. The military regularly buys faulty equipment. Then of course there was the atrocity of the US U-Boat fleet in WW2's first year down in the Pacific. Torpedo guidance systems weren't working, but to cover it the US Navy announced any U-Boat captain whose vessel did not sink a Japanese ship in the first year of combat would be relived of command and discharged. 1 ship was sank in all that time, one Captain retained his command. But yea there isn't a long and checkered history of US weapons appropriations. Nah.

As for the US, it's a disaster. It's a quilt of inequality. Jesus, look at this headline I woke up to: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/dallas-police-in-standoff-after-shootout-attempted-bombing-of-headquarters-1.3112320

My statement wasn't about things like that, so much as massive economic inequality that is visceral and its effects in local educational funding and outcome. Noam Chompsky once suggest that imposing the US education system on a foreign state would been seen as an act of aggression. But hey, warp it how you like, you obviously will. Seems to me that kind of 'education' can have a lasting impact on the people subjected to it though, especially the majority living in the US from a poor back ground. But fuck that! Economic inequality and educational inequality and health care inequality have nothing to do with peoples outlook on things... The poor are notably open to new ideas, especially around sex or religion, right?

All this stuff your statistics claim are prevalent I don't tend to see in Canada. I really don't. I don't see a lot of slut shaming.

As to "my daddy taught me..." So you didn't discuss things like that with your friends? You don't tease and egg one another on? Fascinating. So born mature and uninterested. Okay then...

Your putting up statistics that are arguable. That is all. The sources are all questionable and the findings in many cases are considered to have been equally arguable. I can't fight with or against those numbers. I can't take them seriously. Sorry but there's too much bullshit around statistical evidence in the area of rape and sexual assault.

Among my group of friends and the actions I've seen in my country and city's media and the statements from people in the street, slut shaming isn't a big thing. Maybe it still is in the US, but not really in Canada.

We do have serious problems... Like recently having an outgoing Armed Forces commander issue orders that a series of anticipated recommendations from a study on sexual assault in those Armed Forces, be rejected. The study was released six months latter or so, three months after that officer was replaced with a new one, who did not repeal those orders. This included ensuring regardless of the merit of the idea of a third party organization to manage sexual assault claims, it would never be deemed appropriate by any military examination and there for would never be implemented. This was an order. AN ORDER! But why focus on where we know there are problems, where there is a systemic culture of sexism and rape, when we can broadly paint the world as 'rape culture'? I see a problem there and its in the press, its in print. I don't see any of the usual suspects on here who push this idea of rape culture touching that issue with a ten foot cattle prod.

Then of course there's that sort of rape you dismiss out of hand. Have you ever heard of the Highway of Tears? Here's another one; what isn't the government of Canada interested in holding a public inquiry into? That would be all the thousands of native American women disappearing in assumed sex crimes leading to murder. We haven't even found most of the bodies they vanish so regularly. But no need to look into that, just ask my government! 'Its not on our radar.' And I quote. But hey! This is obvious stuff that just obviously isn't being managed, we should talk about different stuff that we don't have any immediate solutions to instead of doing what we can.

So regardless of your statistics on where the rapes happen, these are the ones I hear about... EVERY DAMN DAY. Every day man. Most of the response that doesn't demand action isn't prejudice in favor of rapists or anything like that. No, if those were white women we'd do something, better believe. It's racism, near as I can tell. Racism that permits that to go on and permits the government to keep winning seats even though it's letting thousands of women's deaths, the deaths of our citizens, go completely unanswered and uninvestigated. Again, that isn't even touching on the state of the military, which is disgraceful.

I make it a policy to deal with what I can see and manage. I can't manage a government inquest on my own but I can see its necessary. I can't change the culture or standing orders of the military, but I can see its necessary.

I don't know when the next woman or girl will be taken advantage of by a friend or family member. I don't. I can't prevent that, this isn't Minority Report and screaming about it isn't helping. Why don't you make noise about issues that can be managed? Places we can make a difference, clear and present and now. Surely the US has it's own hot beds of such issues? And frankly those football teams are a great place to start! They are, don't get me wrong. But this rape culture notion isn't helping.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

I gave you my answers. The format was obviously good enough for you to get them. Reply was good enough.

There isn't much left to say. You didn't bother to consult a rape prevention hotline/center, and I am not one.

Even now there are still people arguing your statistics. Whose are right, whose are wrong?

The military invested heavily in the Patriot Anti-Missile system. You can watch it with CNN in operation over Israel. Hundreds were launched to prevent SCUD missile attacks, they all failed. Epic fail, on television, with a reporter too ignorant of what all the flashing in the sky meant to realize each launch was a failure. The military regularly buys faulty equipment. Then of course there was the atrocity of the US U-Boat fleet in WW2's first year down in the Pacific. Torpedo guidance systems weren't working, but to cover it the US Navy announced any U-Boat captain whose vessel did not sink a Japanese ship in the first year of combat would be relived of command and discharged. 1 ship was sank in all that time, one Captain retained his command. But yea there isn't a long and checkered history of US weapons appropriations. Nah.

As for the US, it's a disaster. It's a quilt of inequality. Jesus, look at this headline I woke up to: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/dallas-police-in-standoff-after-shootout-attempted-bombing-of-headquarters-1.3112320

My statement wasn't about things like that, so much as massive economic inequality that is visceral and its effects in local educational funding and outcome. Noam Chompsky once suggest that imposing the US education system on a foreign state would been seen as an act of aggression. But hey, warp it how you like, you obviously will. Seems to me that kind of 'education' can have a lasting impact on the people subjected to it though, especially the majority living in the US from a poor back ground. But fuck that! Economic inequality and educational inequality and health care inequality have nothing to do with peoples outlook on things... The poor are notably open to new ideas, especially around sex or religion, right?

All this stuff your statistics claim are prevalent I don't tend to see in Canada. I really don't. I don't see a lot of slut shaming.

As to "my daddy taught me..." So you didn't discuss things like that with your friends? You don't tease and egg one another on? Fascinating. So born mature and uninterested. Okay then...

Your putting up statistics that are arguable. That is all. The sources are all questionable and the findings in many cases are considered to have been equally arguable. I can't fight with or against those numbers. I can't take them seriously. Sorry but there's too much bullshit around statistical evidence in the area of rape and sexual assault.

Among my group of friends and the actions I've seen in my country and city's media and the statements from people in the street, slut shaming isn't a big thing. Maybe it still is in the US, but not really in Canada.

We do have serious problems... Like recently having an outgoing Armed Forces commander issue orders that a series of anticipated recommendations from a study on sexual assault in those Armed Forces, be rejected. The study was released six months latter or so, three months after that officer was replaced with a new one, who did not repeal those orders. This included ensuring regardless of the merit of the idea of a third party organization to manage sexual assault claims, it would never be deemed appropriate by any military examination and there for would never be implemented. This was an order. AN ORDER! But why focus on where we know there are problems, where there is a systemic culture of sexism and rape, when we can broadly paint the world as 'rape culture'? I see a problem there and its in the press, its in print. I don't see any of the usual suspects on here who push this idea of rape culture touching that issue with a ten foot cattle prod.

Then of course there's that sort of rape you dismiss out of hand. Have you ever heard of the Highway of Tears? Here's another one; what isn't the government of Canada interested in holding a public inquiry into? That would be all the thousands of native American women disappearing in assumed sex crimes leading to murder. We haven't even found most of the bodies they vanish so regularly. But no need to look into that, just ask my government! 'Its not on our radar.' And I quote. But hey! This is obvious stuff that just obviously isn't being managed, we should talk about different stuff that we don't have any immediate solutions to instead of doing what we can.

So regardless of your statistics on where the rapes happen, these are the ones I hear about... EVERY DAMN DAY. Every day man. Most of the response that doesn't demand action isn't prejudice in favor of rapists or anything like that. No, if those were white women we'd do something, better believe. It's racism, near as I can tell. Racism that permits that to go on and permits the government to keep winning seats even though it's letting thousands of women's deaths, the deaths of our citizens, go completely unanswered and uninvestigated. Again, that isn't even touching on the state of the military, which is disgraceful.

I make it a policy to deal with what I can see and manage. I can't manage a government inquest on my own but I can see its necessary. I can't change the culture or standing orders of the military, but I can see its necessary.

I don't know when the next woman or girl will be taken advantage of by a friend or family member. I don't. I can't prevent that, this isn't Minority Report and screaming about it isn't helping. Why don't you make noise about issues that can be managed? Places we can make a difference, clear and present and now. Surely the US has it's own hot beds of such issues? And frankly those football teams are a great place to start! They are, don't get me wrong. But this rape culture notion isn't helping.

You don't think the issues affecting Native American women are not also a part of rape culture? I am Native American, I was raped, my grandmother was raped, my sister was raped, my cousin was raped. none of the men who raped us were part of my tribe. I was raped by a wealthy white man. This is a part of the problem. They give less shits about it happening to Native Americans, this horrific treatment of Native Americans is actually part of the culture that founded the Americas and has never stopped. The way they view rape in the first place is PART of the problem that allows it to continue as badly as it does. It is just another circumstance added to the pile that makes it "okay to rape when". Ignoring the rape culture that exists is what is not helping, not attempting to address it. The problem is most want to not hear about the problems and ignore them rather than look into what is really wrong that is causing these attitudes towards rape in the first place. In order to change these things long term, we have to change the views in society that allow it to continue, this is not done easy, and it is not done by saying "it is not a problem" move on.

 

[Trippy Turtle]

Man, I'd point out how useless and stupid the whole Slutwalk thing was if it wasn't so fun to watch.
As it is, there is no point arguing with people who think the best response to rapists is pulling out their breasts.
Even the more sane femenists are best off avoiding them. As evidenced here.

 

[Silvanus]

Edited out.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Man, I'd point out how useless and stupid the whole Slutwalk thing was if it wasn't so fun to watch.
As it is, there is no point arguing with people who think the best response to rapists is pulling out their breasts.
Even the more sane femenists are best off avoiding them. As evidenced here.

I think the point of it is to make people understand that it is ignorant to blame a woman for being raped on her showing skin, since of course according to rapist, they prefer to target women who wear concealing clothing covering all their skin and behave in a shy manner.

"Even though it is thought that women who dress provocatively are the most likely to be raped, studies show that women with passive, submissive personalities are more likely to get raped. These women tend to wear clothes that are concealing such as high neckline, long pants and long sleeves. This may sound ironic but, predatory men can identify submissive women by their style of dress."
http://internetwriter62.hubpages.com/hub/Through-the-Eyes-of-Criminals-Ways-not-to-be-Singled-Out

The point of the slut walk is to make people realize they are idiots if they think the woman dressed as a slut has anything to do with her being raped because too many in society actually blame a woman for her skin showing, when that is actually the opposite of the truth. They are trying to stop the shaming of women to " cover up" showing it was based on a lie.