Left 4 Dead 2 not different? Yeah right

[TimbukTurnip]

Based on the demo, L4D2 seems like a big extension to L4D. Probably too much stuff has been added for it to have been updates to L4D. However, seeing as it is only really big extension, i think the price is a bit high.

Shall we stop beating that dead horse already? L4D2 massively improves on the L4D formula, new weapons including the whole new melee system, new gore, new AI Director, new campaigns, 2 new game modes, a whole new setting including characters, a (though not massive) graphics update, the totally new Uncommon infected and new Special Infected. What else does this game need to be seen as a true sequel?!

Anyway, of course the core of the L4D formula still stands in L4D2, that's obvious and I doubt anyone would've expected any different or wánted that. What it does is improve on it, a LOT by the looks of it, I'm really loving the demo. Decapitating zombies with a guitar is just sooo satisfying.

I just cant think of it as a sequel. Youve got 3 new zombies and new places, yes, but the weapons are the same as before, just theres two different types for each (except of the course the sniper and grenade launcher), and from what i can tell the only difference between them is the model and colour.
And im not particularly fond of the melee weapons. Sure they're fun and useful and fun in singleplayer and campaign, but i can see them being a real ***** in mulitplayer - watching your horde being beaten to death by a frying pan as a boomer wont be too fun.
Also they dont make much sense - you get the "worn out" timer thing when you shove enemies away, but you never get it with melee weapons.
Also, its a frying pan! how does it kill a bunch of zombies with one hit? Give them a headache yeah, but death?
Also the jockey seems pointless to me, unless one attacks you at the same time a spitter spits on your feet.

Also, for some reason i cant put my finger on, (and i have been trying) it just doesnt seem as good or fun as the first game.

So in short, theres not enough actually new or good stuff to make it seem like a sequel to me.

Sorry for using also at the beginning of every sentence, did that without realising.

 

[Cowabungaa]

I just cant think of it as a sequel. Youve got 3 new zombies and new places, yes, but the weapons are the same as before, just theres two different types for each (except of the course the sniper and grenade launcher), and from what i can tell the only difference between them is the model and colour.
And im not particularly fond of the melee weapons. Sure they're fun and useful and fun in singleplayer and campaign, but i can see them being a real ***** in mulitplayer - watching your horde being beaten to death by a frying pan as a boomer wont be too fun.
Also they dont make much sense - you get the "worn out" timer thing when you shove enemies away, but you never get it with melee weapons.
Also, its a frying pan! how does it kill a bunch of zombies with one hit? Give them a headache yeah, but death?
Also the jockey seems pointless to me, unless one attacks you at the same time a spitter spits on your feet.

Also, for some reason i cant put my finger on, (and i have been trying) it just doesnt seem as good or fun as the first game.

So in short, theres not enough actually new or good stuff to make it seem like a sequel to me.

Sorry for using also at the beginning of every sentence, did that without realising.

I kind of second bagodix here, what else do you need before L4D2 is a sequel in your eyes? A clanmate of mine basically said the same thing as you did, this is how I responded:

All you're basically saying is "All these features belong in an expansion pack" but on what ground? With that many features and upgrades, what else do you want before you see L4D2 as a true sequel? It has:
- A (though not massive, but what else did you expect?) graphical update
- New weapons and gadgets (main guns, new pistols, melee weapons, new throwing weapons and the defib)
- New Special infected, and the old one's got a bit of a revibe (the Witch wanders around, a female skin for the Boomer, the Smoker looks even worse)
- The totally new Uncommon infected
- Completely new setting
- 2 New game modes
- New cast
- Upgraded AI Director
- New campaigns, plus the campaigns will be less linear and work more in conjunction with the AI Director, it's important to realise that we haven't seen a lot of this yet, mostly because we've only played a small portion of óne campaign.

And I might've missed a small thing or two. I mean, what else do you want?! Aren't you acting a bit spoiled perhaps? It's not like the game will completely play the same, especially in the Versus mode things will most definitely change with the new Special infected and new weapons. If you say that all these things are common in addon packs, what dóes constitute as a sequel then, I'm confused.

Did you expect a 180 degree shift of the whole formula? Why would you even expect that? Do remember that you haven't played a large portion of L4D2 yet, only a very small part of the most basic game type of all, I wouldn't be so quick to judge.

'Bout the frying pan: you bash the zombie's skull in. Really, a frying pan is solid metal, try smashing someone's head with that with full force.

'Bout the Spitter and Jocky thing: that's exactly what I'm talking about, have you played the Versus mode yet? No you haven't, only a wee little bit from one campaign map, have you got any idea how the new Infected and weapons will effect Versus tactics? A lot, you just pointed one out, and I'm quite sure Versus will play pretty differently. And don't forget the 2 other gameplay types, have you played those? I can understand why you're feeling that way, the standard Campaign mode isn't the one anyone expected to change a lot, but it's like you're forgetting that there is a lot more to this game.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

Left4Dead 2 is NOT a sequel, it's a bunch of DLC's put together.

Let me explain. There's only 3 new infected(The Charger, the woman-that-spits-acid infected and the jockey).

They added a melee combat system. This could have been included into a DLC also(And all they had to do is updated the original maps to have melee weapons).

New characters were not needed.

New AI director. AGAIN, a fucking DLC would have done it.

All of these factors DO NOT justify a new game. ALL of this can be included in a DLC.

They could release these 4 new unique maps and group all the maps. "West Coast" and "East Coast" campaigns has an example.

"Oh but Andy, the new infected do not fit the old campaigns!"

So? They could be restrained to the 4 new maps. Each set of map would include unique infected.

Vale is becoming greedy.

 

[RoseBridge]

So in short, theres not enough actually new or good stuff to make it seem like a sequel to me.

What more could you possibly need in order for L4D2 to be a sequel?

a couple new games modes, a point to picking a character!and maybe more levels.
it just feels like they could easily do more. especially for console owners who aren't getting any cool community mods, or updates.

 

[Cowabungaa]

Left4Dead 2 is NOT a sequel, it's a bunch of DLC's put together.

Let me explain. There's only 3 new infected(The Charger, the woman-that-spits-acid infected and the jockey).

They added a melee combat system. This could have been included into a DLC also(And all they had to do is updated the original maps to have melee weapons).

New characters were not needed.

New AI director. AGAIN, a fucking DLC would have done it.

All of these factors DO NOT justify a new game. ALL of this can be included in a DLC.

They could release these 4 new unique maps and group all the maps. "West Coast" and "East Coast" campaigns has an example.

"Oh but Andy, the new infected do not fit the old campaigns!"

So? They could be restrained to the 4 new maps. Each set of map would include unique infected.

Vale is becoming greedy.

I'd like to point to my previous post [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.153477?page=5#3720819] in this thread. First of all, you're missing quite a few things, other than that, what wóuld make L4D2 a true sequel then? L4D2 adds a lot to the original L4D formula, you can't get around that, and you haven't even played the other game modes.

a couple new games modes, a point to picking a character!and maybe more levels.
it just feels like they could easily do more. especially for console owners who aren't getting any cool community mods, or updates.

You're getting new game modes! Haven't you checked out the demo yet? Or followed the news? We're getting the Scavenge mode and Realism mode.

Picking a character...gee, that doesn't sound too shabby actually, but why jump on the "lets add RPG elements" bandwagon again? I think Valve has had their fill with that with TF2 and I think they like L4D being a straight-forward shooter. If you ask me, there aren't enough of those games, everything has to be complicated these days. But that's taste.

 

[xxcloud417xx]

Left4Dead 2 is NOT a sequel, it's a bunch of DLC's put together.

Let me explain. There's only 3 new infected(The Charger, the woman-that-spits-acid infected and the jockey).

They added a melee combat system. This could have been included into a DLC also(And all they had to do is updated the original maps to have melee weapons).

New characters were not needed.

New AI director. AGAIN, a fucking DLC would have done it.

All of these factors DO NOT justify a new game. ALL of this can be included in a DLC.

They could release these 4 new unique maps and group all the maps. "West Coast" and "East Coast" campaigns has an example.

"Oh but Andy, the new infected do not fit the old campaigns!"

So? They could be restrained to the 4 new maps. Each set of map would include unique infected.

Vale is becoming greedy.

This ladies and gentlemen is a fine example of what I've been pointing out for a while now (ever since the "Boycott L4D 2" movement).

Valve has been putting out DLC for most of their games (look at TF2 on PC with its class upgrades and etc). They were never REQUIRED to do this for us, hell most devs don't bother releasing DLC unless you need to pay for it! Now Valve decided to not release that much DLC for L4D and people are complaining that "Valve screwed us".

My reply to that is that they haven't screwed us any more than any other developer, who releases half made games at full price and sells the rest of it in fractions (looking at you EA), or devs that only wait for expansions to release new playable content! In fact, I think Valve has screwed us less than those other devs, even with L4D.

Valve has unfortunately turned it's community into something that resembles a mob of bratty spoiled children by releasing content for free like this. So before they realize that were an ungrateful community, some people should stop and look at what Valve HAS done for us and be appreciative instead of bitchy about what they haven't done.

You know, you can send letters to Valve about how you APPRECIATED their previous free DLC, instead of complaining about how you hate them now for not giving us enough. Maybe that approach will yield better results for DLC in future Valve titles.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

Le snipe

Your points are these:

1. A graphical update.

They did not updated the graphics in any way, shape or form. The game only looks better because it's not night anymore. They choosed to make it in daylight for a reason, so that they can actually showcase the graphics a bit more.

2. New weapons and gadgets:

Defib and grenade launcher. The rest are re-skinned old weapons.

3. All of this could have been done with a DLC. No need for a whole new game.

4. Again, DLC maybe?

5. The setting is more or less the same. Those 4 new maps could have been released one by one using something called DOWNLOADABLE CONTENT...D.L.C.

6. The game modes seem interesting. From what I understand one is completely new and the other is a combination of all the modes. So in truth there's only one new and original game mode. Again, a DLC could have done this.

7. DLC...Updating something doesn't necessitate a whole new game.

8. New campaigns. Neither you or I can say if these are exactly like the old ones or not since the demo only shows 50% of the first map scenario.

What constitutes has a sequel? I'll give Starcraft 2 has an example. It completely revamped the whole game. Yes, it's an RTS, but we're talking what constitutes has a sequel here.

A sequel should actually have improvements over the last game. BIG improvements, not just a few re-skins. Left4Dead is barely an improvement over the last game. New infected, new AI director, new uncommon infected. That does not justify a sequel.

"Did you expect a 180 degree shift of the whole formula? " No, but I expected more than ideas which could have been easily put together in DLC's and released one after another.

The infected more or less play the same. The Jockey is the new smoker. He will keep the player in place and do damage. The only difference here is that you need to get close to the target now, meaning it's going to be quite a useless infected unless you combine it with the spitter. The spitter being the only new infected. The charge is the new hunter. It has the same idea. The hunter jumps on a target and keeps it in place whilst dealing damage, the charger charges to a target and deals damage to it whilst keeping it in place.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

Snip

Ungrateful? The community calls bullshit on ONE single game and we're now spoiled brats eh?
Left 4 Dead 2 FEELS completely like it could have been done my DLC. There's 2 improvements made over the original game: AI director 2.0 and melee weapons.

Everything else is a re-skin of the last infected. The Charger is the new hunter(The hunter jumps and pins down the target, the charger charges and pins down the target). Same goes for the Jockey, he keeps players immobilized and deals damage whilst the other one keeps the target immobilized and deals damage. The difference between the 2 is the way they reach the target.

2 improvements and re-skins DO NOT justify a whole new game.


Double post, my bad.

 

[L33tMarvin]

I can feel the difference when i am using ak and defibulator

 

[Cowabungaa]

Le snipe

Your points are these:

1. A graphical update.

They did not updated the graphics in any way, shape or form. The game only looks better because it's not night anymore. They choosed to make it in daylight for a reason, so that they can actually showcase the graphics a bit more.

You've only played one campaign, not all of them will be in broad daylight. Also, I'm pretty sure at least the characters models did look better, more detailed, but I'm no expert. What you're definitely forgetting, is about the massive update on the gore graphics. No more red poofs with a headshot or pipe bomb, local damage from weapons, it's all completely new.

2. New weapons and gadgets:

Defib and grenade launcher. The rest are re-skinned old weapons.

This really makes me wonder if you've actually played the demo. You're missing the adrenaline shot, every melee weapon, the Magnum pistol, the boomer bile, incendiary ammo (note: that's not actually in the demo, but showcased lots of times already), the new SCAR rifle (at least it looks like a SCAR), new silenced SMG, the upgraded sniper rifle and maybe I'm missing some things that we'll only see in the full game.

3. All of this could have been done with a DLC. No need for a whole new game.


4. Again, DLC maybe?

5. The setting is more or less the same. Those 4 new maps could have been released one by one using something called DOWNLOADABLE CONTENT...D.L.C.

6. The game modes seem interesting. From what I understand one is completely new and the other is a combination of all the modes. So in truth there's only one new and original game mode. Again, a DLC could have done this.

7. DLC...Updating something doesn't necessitate a whole new game.

8. New campaigns. Neither you or I can say if these are exactly like the old ones or not since the demo only shows 50% of the first map scenario.

I don't understand why you keep saying DLC. If they would say ónly add new campaigns or ónly a few new weapons to the original L4D I could've seen your point, but they're adding all those things into one big new game. You're also forgetting about our console brothers, especially the 360 owners amongst us. They have to pay for their DLC (not sure about the PS3 people, Valve doesn't seem to like us), and do you really think they would add áll this into one big DLC for 10 bucks or so?

What constitutes has a sequel? I'll give Starcraft 2 has an example. It completely revamped the whole game. Yes, it's an RTS, but we're talking what constitutes has a sequel here.

A sequel should actually have improvements over the last game. BIG improvements, not just a few re-skins. Left4Dead is barely an improvement over the last game. New infected, new AI director, new uncommon infected. That does not justify a sequel.

I just do not understand how you can keep saying that there are barely any improvements, you haven't even played the full game yet ánd you've missed a lot of things in that little piece of gameplay we've got now. You haven't touched the new games modes nor the old Versus mode with all the new stuff, and it's especially the multi-player components of L4D that are the most vulnerable to change. The Campaign mode is the most basic and simplistic game mode, and that's the only mode you've actually played.

I also think that your Starcraft 2 analogy isn't really helping you here. If anything, from what I've heard, Starcraft 2 will be one of those sequels that will play a lot like it's predecessor. From what I've heard it'll play faster, but I wouldn't know what makes you say that it's completely revamping the game and éspecially what makes you say that everything that's new to L4D2 does nót revamp the whole game.

The infected more or less play the same. The Jockey is the new smoker. He will keep the player in place and do damage. The only difference here is that you need to get close to the target now, meaning it's going to be quite a useless infected unless you combine it with the spitter. The spitter being the only new infected. The charge is the new hunter. It has the same idea. The hunter jumps on a target and keeps it in place whilst dealing damage, the charger charges to a target and deals damage to it whilst keeping it in place.

I beg to differ, I can see a lot of new tactics forming already: the Jockey can lure people into a group of zombies, into a Witch, into Spitter acid, drop him/her from a ledge, and the Charger can be used to break formations like the Smoker does. The Spitter can pin down survivors, splitting them into groups or preventing them from leaving an area. That, to me, seems to be the focus of the new Special Infected: breaking up a tight group of survivors and not just do what the old Special Infected already did (which would be quite a waste).

Combine that with the new possibilities the survivors are getting, and all that would most definitely make Versus a lot more dynamic and very different indeed, as you might call it: revamp it, and isn't that what you want? And that's not even talking about Scavenge and Realism mode.

Left 4 Dead 2 FEELS completely like it could have been done my DLC. There's 2 improvements made over the original game: AI director 2.0 and melee weapons.

Again, you do not know that. You haven't played L4D2 yet. You have played the L4D2 demo, which is only a teeny tiny fragment of the complete game. And I've also already pointed out that you've missed a lot of things in just the demo already.

 

[Katana314]

Compare Half-Life 1 and Half-Life 2.

Half-Life 1 fit pretty well with the typical 1998 shooter like Quake 2 or Unreal. What it added was a comprehensive story (rather than lone marine off somewhere with aliens), a lot of unique and interesting environments, and a nice selection of weapons.

Half-Life 2 really tried to take everything from scratch and wiped the slate of everything they had before. There are a few recognizable old enemies, but the marines? Gone. The initial premise? Gone. (you're now in a post-apoctalyptic world where aliens have taken over) All the old weapons? There are, again, some weapons that made it across, but many that didn't, as Valve tried to invent new ways for the weapons to stay interesting, primarily through the gravity gun. They also decided they wanted to go much further with the character development than before, so you can really feel like a person who is involved in some much bigger story, who can actually relate to those around him. They not only "added vehicles" (which is a very simple tack-on "here, we have vehicles" for most games) which involved a lot of reimagining on how those chapters would focus on vehicles, what would work differently, etc. In some ways, the driving sections were their own minigame in a small way.

Sentence summary:
Half-Life 1: An adventuring FPS in a believable world, with ally-interaction elements, fighting hordes of aliens in a large science facility
Half-Life 2: An adventuring FPS in a controlled and largely foreign world, with deep character-based sequences, with a high focus on physics-puzzles as opposed to gunplay, and varying individual game mechanics by chapter.

Now compare:
Left 4 Dead 1: A co-op FPS in which 4 survivors fight off hordes of "infected" in order to reach safety. They must use teamwork to defeat larger "boss infected".
Left 4 Dead 2: A co-op FPS in which 4 survivors fight off hordes of "infected" in order to reach safety. They must use teamwork to defeat larger "boss infected". Also melee weapons.

No matter how many "new features" are added, you can't deny there is NO overall change to the premise behind things. They didn't change the focus, they didn't change the setting; just the location within the same world; they didn't even change the design focus behind the features. They didn't wipe a slate clean, they just started from where they finished and thought "What can we add"

Left 4 Dead 2: This is not a sequel.

 

[Danpascooch]

Remember how a lot of people thought that L4D2 wasn't going to be much different to L4D at all? (Read: boycotters) Yeah, well, I can safely say: bullshit. You can feel the difference with it at the very moment you start playing. Everything feels different, and it's fucking good. Who else has the demo, and what do you think of it?

I at first thought this was a thread saying that L4D2 WAS just like L4D1, I was all ready to take you apart...and now I see you agree with me

 

[ProfessorLayton]

The Left 4 Dead 2 demo was similar yet different. They really amped up the gore to 11, the melee weapons are nice and fun, the whole thing is like new. The controls are basically the same, but that could be said about any sequel.

Also, the changes made were too drastic to be added in DLC or even an expansion pack. It's similar, but different enough.

 

[Tri Force95]

I like it alot, but it feels entirely different. Now, thats is a good thing. I like different in my sequels, but the brightness of the levels bothers me.

In L4D you shot the hell out of zombies in the dark, and I like it. You never knew what was behind the next corner, or what would get you from behind.

Now, its kinda like, "Yo zombies in plain sight, shoot them."

I now there are going to be completely dark levels though, and that makes me happy. I guess Ill just have to adjust to the brightness of the first few campaigns.

 

[T5seconds]

Yes, I feel that L4D2 was worth the money I spent pre-ordering it. And that's just based on the demo. Can't wait for the full game.

Honestly, there's just something about L4D2 that makes it far more entertaining for me than L4D.

It is probably the fact that hitting a witch in the back of the head with a frying pan never ceases to be fun...

Even though she does end up tearing out your ass and putting it on your mouth...

 

[Vanguard_Ex]

Remember how a lot of people thought that L4D2 wasn't going to be much different to L4D at all? (Read: boycotters) Yeah, well, I can safely say: bullshit. You can feel the difference with it at the very moment you start playing. Everything feels different, and it's fucking good. Who else has the demo, and what do you think of it?

I at first thought this was a thread saying that L4D2 WAS just like L4D1, I was all ready to take you apart...and now I see you agree with me

Sorry to get you all raged for nothin :/
You can pretend I was opposing you if you like?

 

[4fromK]

actually, I'm beginning to see peoples point here.
I can't say that I've played the demo yet, but look at Valves other sequels. If you say that HL1 and HL2 arent actually pretty much completely different, I'm gonna have to ask you to step outside. likewise, TF2 barely resembles the first game. maybe the problem is the timing thing - the gaps between the games I mentioned were pretty bi, so the devs were forced to be innovative. likewise, If valve ever publish Portal 2, It had better be completely bloody different. L4d, thinking about it, has always interested me less than Valves other games (which isnt really saying much; I still like it).

another thing I just thought of; this update or sequel or whatever could be seen as the middle ground between something like Counterstrike source, which didn't do much but better physics and graphics, and HL2, which completely revamped the game.

but honestly, I really dont care.

EDIT: Ok, so I got ninja'd, and someone else put the points more coherently.
so to make mine more coherent. L4D2, released by any other developers, would be an acceptable sequel. But, because Valve is so awesome, we expect more from them.
If you think thats unfair, so be it. Its also the truth.

 

[Romblen]

And im not particularly fond of the melee weapons. Sure they're fun and useful and fun in singleplayer and campaign, but i can see them being a real ***** in mulitplayer

The issue I always had with multi player games with melee weapons is that your team mates get in the way. I'll be shooting at a horde, then my idiot team mate runs in front of me, then continues to try to beat an entire horde. By the time he's finished, he lost a lot of health and he wants my medpack. I really can't think of reason to add melee weapons in aside from, "Everyone else does it" Which is a really terrible excuse. I tried using a melee weapon, but after using it for a short time I thought, why did I give up my pistols for this? In single player, it works fine, your AI won't shoot you and will give up their medpacks.

 

[TimbukTurnip]

I kind of second bagodix here, what else do you need before L4D2 is a sequel in your eyes? A clanmate of mine basically said the same thing as you did, this is how I responded:

All you're basically saying is "All these features belong in an expansion pack" but on what ground? With that many features and upgrades, what else do you want before you see L4D2 as a true sequel? It has:
- A (though not massive, but what else did you expect?) graphical update

I cant say ive seen any difference in graphics, just some reskins. Either way graphics arent particularly important, and im not bothered by them

- New weapons and gadgets (main guns, new pistols, melee weapons, new throwing weapons and the defib)

Theres only one new gun (grenade launcher), one new pistol (magnum) and one new throwable (boomer bile). The other "new" guns are the same as the old guns except they look different and make different sounds.
As for the melee weapons, as i said they're unbalanced and overpowered - fun in singleplayer but a ***** in multiplayer. And they seem like they were just added because other zombie games have melee weapons.

- New Special infected, and the old one's got a bit of a revibe (the Witch wanders around, a female skin for the Boomer, the Smoker looks even worse)

New reskins and the ability to walk don't warrant a sequel.

- The totally new Uncommon infected

Nice but also dont warrant a sequel

- Completely new setting

Not really. You're still shooting zombies in different places. L4D had the same - A city, a suburb, rooftops and a forest. Only difference is some campaigns are in daylight.

- 2 New game modes

Only one is original - scavenge. The other is just a harder version of campaign. Plus i expect it will only be fun if you have a mic - not everyone does.

- New cast

Who cares about cast? Thats a matter of preference really - i prefer the orginal four as they were so silly - the new lot are too serious.

- Upgraded AI Director

Now it can move wall and doors and change the weather. Definatly a sequel.

- New campaigns, plus the campaigns will be less linear and work more in conjunction with the AI Director, it's important to realise that we haven't seen a lot of this yet, mostly because we've only played a small portion of óne campaign.

Dont know enough about the campigns to comment on that, i'll have to wait for the game to come out to see if thats true.

If you say that all these things are common in addon packs, what dóes constitute as a sequel then, I'm confused.

They are indeed common in addon packs. Like i said, if there was more actually new and original stuff then a sequel it would be.

Do remember that you haven't played a large portion of L4D2 yet, only a very small part of the most basic game type of all, I wouldn't be so quick to judge.

As i said in my original post, i am basing what i say on the demo, so i could be wrong. We'll just have to wait for the game to come out to see.

'Bout the frying pan: you bash the zombie's skull in. Really, a frying pan is solid metal, try smashing someone's head with that with full force.

Yeah but i mean a whole bunch with one swing? Wouldnt you lose momentum?

'Bout the Spitter and Jocky thing: that's exactly what I'm talking about, have you played the Versus mode yet? No you haven't

Have you? No one knows what versus will be like. As i said i can imagine the jockey being useful at the same time a spitter spits, but its uncommon for a team to work together with planned attacks.
Ive also seen that on its own the jockey is useless, at least against an average team that sticks together. (theres a plugin somewhere that you can download to play as infected in the demo, i saw some videos of it on youtube)


As i said, i think there is a bit too much for L4D2 to be a L4D update, unless it was updated over a long period of time, but there is also barely anything to make it a sequel. Thats why its an extension - too much for an update, not enough for a sequel. A middle ground.
In this case, a middle ground with too high a price.