let's debate piracy and the hypocrisy behind it

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Petromir

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Apr 10, 2010
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Piracy is made up of several areas, the "demo" people, the anti DRM crusaders, and those who wouldnt pay for it anyway, and those wjho cant afford it but lack the moral fibre to not get it, those who'd buy it if they couldnt easially pirate it, accounting for most people.

The problem is theres no real way of telling what % each makes up, and how many otherwise non-sales are turned into sales by the demo portion.

None iof this changes the fact that its still theft. And while the potential sales argument is flawed, it does show how much money the company should have made from the number of copies of their product that have been used.
 

RathWolf

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Apr 14, 2009
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shadow skill said:
aps1984 said:
Calling Piracy stealing is just hype for effect. I thought we'd sorted all this out. Can people be a bit more mature and stop doing this maybe?
Obviously not. If you walk into a book store pick up a book on the shelf and sit down and read the whole thing you are not a thief. Oh and for the record no content creator or distributor can be said to have the right to make a profit.
That's a bit of a false analogy. Piracy is more akin to walking into a bookstore, picking up a book, making a copy of each page, and then walking out.

Also, what? You're saying people who work hard making content don't have a right to be rewarded for their effort?
 

numaiomul

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Oct 18, 2009
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finally i managed to flush out most of the weeds and people are actually starting to make valid arguments :) so let's begin again with a bit smarter.
i understand that you do not pay for the actual game but for the hours of work you put into that game but there is no such thing as POTENTIAL money based on how many times it was downloaded so stop it with the money lost because of piracy. there is no scientific way to find out how much money is lost because of piracy. everything is speculation.
piracy is bad but so is sex and alcohol drinking underaged that doesn't stop people from doing it. and guess what, in those 2 situations adults act like the devil himself is in his child thus making the situation worse [more drinking and sex to relieve stress from fights with parents]. piracy will forever be a problem but people can make it worse [by putting DRM sistems and the rest of stuff that has the draw-back of BUYING customers to pirate to get rid of the DRM feature] or accept it and treat it accordingly. i heard a game company actually went on torrent websites and gave advice in the comments section of their game. they said their sales we're not radically different but still a bit better.
of and the option of renting a game is non-existent in my country so that option is out for our FICTIONAL character jack which seems to embody evil itself for how much hate your pour into it.
 

jamesworkshop

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Sep 3, 2008
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Who cares, pirates certainly don't care and its not like anyone from any cracking group is going to read stuff like this and change their ways.
 

Doitpow

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Mar 18, 2009
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Danglybits said:
Did you pay for the original? Did you pay for the copy you made? The art gallery argument really doesn't apply to most video games or anything that is widely available, you can access Spore and ME easily. You just have to give someone money to do so.
As I say, we'll never agree.

But how about this argument, Suppose Piracy is inherently immoral, abhorrent even. Suppose you manage to arrest and fine every single pirate in the world. You don't think you're going to alienate your market? at all?
 

Petromir

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numaiomul said:
finally i managed to flush out most of the weeds and people are actually starting to make valid arguments :) so let's begin again with a bit smarter.
i understand that you do not pay for the actual game but for the hours of work you put into that game but there is no such thing as POTENTIAL money based on how many times it was downloaded so stop it with the money lost because of piracy. there is no scientific way to find out how much money is lost because of piracy. everything is speculation.
piracy is bad but so is sex and alcohol drinking underaged that doesn't stop people from doing it. and guess what, in those 2 situations adults act like the devil himself is in his child thus making the situation worse [more drinking and sex to relieve stress from fights with parents]. piracy will forever be a problem but people can make it worse [by putting DRM sistems and the rest of stuff that has the draw-back of BUYING customers to pirate to get rid of the DRM feature] or accept it and treat it accordingly. i heard a game company actually went on torrent websites and gave advice in the comments section of their game. they said their sales we're not radically different but still a bit better.
of and the option of renting a game is non-existent in my country so that option is out for our FICTIONAL character jack which seems to embody evil itself for how much hate your pour into it.
Nobodies hating jack, their hating the strawman reasoning that its ok for him to pirate becasue he cant afford to get the games anyway, food this is an acceptable exscuse, games arnt, especially as theres enough free games out there to keep him occupied (and they are far more likely to run well on a pc owned by someone in the situation.
 

Flour

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Mar 20, 2008
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Petromir said:
Irrelivant, you've still gained a piece of someone elses work, that they charge for, without paying, thatas theft. It's abit like a service, if i break down outside a garage and ask the mechanic to fix it, and he uses no parts, and no other works there, nobody passes along the road, and i then drive off without payment I've procured a service by decpetion, which is theft.
Not irrelevant. Yes you get something someone else worked for, from someone who purchased the software(just like a rental, buying a used game or borrowing it from a friend, lets ban those things too...). But the mechanic has lost something, time, time that could have been used for someone or something else.
 

zakski

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Mar 24, 2009
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geddydisciple said:
nobody is going to buy a game after playing through a pirated version so yes it does effect sales.
I beg to differ, a lot of those were never gonna buy it in the first place and I know people who have gone out and bought games they have pirated
 

TPiddy

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Aug 28, 2009
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Doitpow said:
And as to those who say Pirates are just leaches...I just refer you to....
http://arstechnica.com/media/news/2009/04/study-pirates-buy-tons-more-music-than-average-folks.ars
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/apr/21/study-finds-pirates-buy-more-music

Consider an art gallery. Everyone can go in for free. Some people buy it. Everyone enjoys it. Dismantling internet piracy is like burning down this gallery, fewer people will buy the art, and far fewer will even see it.

But we'll never agree, this argument has gone on for centuries, and there's no way in hell one side is going to back down so screw it.
The art gallery will charge a fee for you to enter. Every time. That is how they make their money. It's not the same business model and therefore cannot be compared to this scenario.

As for music, people were tired of having to fork out over $20 for a CD when they only wanted 1-2 songs. As such, stuff like iTunes and digital download were created to facilitate the need after seeing the success of markets such as Napster. This, in turn, forced the price of CD's back down to respectable levels, considering the cost of production of a CD has not changed in over 20 years.

The gaming industry is different. The development standards are now so high that gaming companies have to invest millions to produce a single game, and they need to make a return on that to remain profitable.

The two mediums are too different to compare. Show me an article that says people who pirate movies are likely to buy more movies and then I might be inclined to believe your argument has merit. $0.99 music download does not equal $60 game purchase.
 

Bigsmith

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Mar 16, 2009
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This thread has made me open my eyes... begins unistalling stuff i got though 'certian' ways.
 

That's Funny

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Jul 20, 2009
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Piracy is STEALING.

Don't try and excuse it, it is against the law and encourages comapanies like Ubisoft to create annoying DRM's that patronize the good law abiding user who doesn't steal games.

Don't make me show you those piracy ad's if you need more explaining.

Also Jack is an idiot, Good day Sir!
 

shemoanscazrex3

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Mar 24, 2010
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Regardless even though I do it piracy is bad m'kay. You wouldn't steal a purse? lol but on a serious note games, movies, music, or software isn't essential to living so you can make due without. I do pirate for the lack of funds though
 

MrDarkling

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Oct 11, 2009
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Because every pirate is just like Jack. [/sarcasm]
No offence but wake up dude, seriously.
 

Petromir

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Apr 10, 2010
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Flour said:
Petromir said:
Irrelivant, you've still gained a piece of someone elses work, that they charge for, without paying, thatas theft. It's abit like a service, if i break down outside a garage and ask the mechanic to fix it, and he uses no parts, and no other works there, nobody passes along the road, and i then drive off without payment I've procured a service by decpetion, which is theft.
Not irrelevant. Yes you get something someone else worked for, from someone who purchased the software(just like a rental, buying a used game or borrowing it from a friend, lets ban those things too...). But the mechanic has lost something, time, time that could have been used for someone or something else.
Only in the most literal sense, it was work hours, and i'd constructed the situation so he'd have nothing else to do.

If you want to be pedantic then a pay car park, that alwyas has spaces in it, its still theft to use it. Theft can be of an idea, of an object or a service.
 

bleh002

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Jan 8, 2010
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numaiomul said:
finally i managed to flush out most of the weeds and people are actually starting to make valid arguments :) so let's begin again with a bit smarter.
i understand that you do not pay for the actual game but for the hours of work you put into that game but there is no such thing as POTENTIAL money based on how many times it was downloaded so stop it with the money lost because of piracy. there is no scientific way to find out how much money is lost because of piracy. everything is speculation.
There actually is a scientific way to find out how much money is lost. It involves stating your assumptions (i.e what percentage of pirates would have purchased the game if they could not have pirated it) and creating several models that show the different outcomes based on those assumptions.

So to say that there is a zero dollar loss to a company due to pirates is to make an assumption. That assumption is that pirates would never have purchased the game in the first place.

Most reasonable people make the assumption that while not all pirates would purchased copies, some percentage would. That is how and why we can quantify and provide an realistic example of the revenue a company loses to pirates.

edit: fixed quote issue
 

TPiddy

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Aug 28, 2009
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numaiomul said:
finally i managed to flush out most of the weeds and people are actually starting to make valid arguments :) so let's begin again with a bit smarter.
i understand that you do not pay for the actual game but for the hours of work you put into that game but there is no such thing as POTENTIAL money based on how many times it was downloaded so stop it with the money lost because of piracy. there is no scientific way to find out how much money is lost because of piracy. everything is speculation.
piracy is bad but so is sex and alcohol drinking underaged that doesn't stop people from doing it. and guess what, in those 2 situations adults act like the devil himself is in his child thus making the situation worse [more drinking and sex to relieve stress from fights with parents]. piracy will forever be a problem but people can make it worse [by putting DRM sistems and the rest of stuff that has the draw-back of BUYING customers to pirate to get rid of the DRM feature] or accept it and treat it accordingly. i heard a game company actually went on torrent websites and gave advice in the comments section of their game. they said their sales we're not radically different but still a bit better.
of and the option of renting a game is non-existent in my country so that option is out for our FICTIONAL character jack which seems to embody evil itself for how much hate your pour into it.
Once again... trying to justify it by saying there are worse crimes out there? How stupid is this? It doesn't matter that you COULD be doing worse... you're still a thief... and we're not going to just turn around and tell you that it's ok...

As for money lost.... it's obviously not a direct translation of pirated copies == money lost... however... you cannot definitely state that there would be NO loss... there is ALWAYS loss on the company's behalf, even if it's just the fact that someone KNOWS they can get it for free... that knowledge will impact their decision. The less morally upstanding people will have no problem with this.

So we'll quit saying that pirates cost the games industry hundreds of millions if you quit saying that it doesn't hurt anybody.
 

Serathen

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Nov 18, 2009
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Ah, Piracy. The act of free digital distribution of a product that can be bought. Some say should be bought, but that's a bit too much inflection, I will leave it with "can". So, that's what piracy is. Now, what's being stolen?
Piracy, in this context, is the theft of a video game. A video game is the product of time and money. The money is spent mostly on the people who made the game, and some is spent on the act of notifying the rest of the world that the game exists. The time is spent by a collection of creative minds, who each individually produce the small part of a greater whole. A collaboration of artists.
Artist, in this context, referring to the art of engineering (the artistry in a device which performs the most functions with the greatest simplicity). Or of actual art, in the case of the graphic designers. I've done some coding myself, and I currently work as a writer for a small independent game studio, so I understand the general sense of heroic accomplishment of completing a particularly nasty bit of programming. It's very similar to finishing a beautifully orchestrated short story. The artistic connection is hardly a stretch of the imagination.
Alright, so, the makers of the games are artists. The ultimate purpose of the true artist is their art. They require no funds, only the materials to create more art. If you don't believe me, well, then talk to some painters. Or read the play My Name is Asher Lev. (Or see the play, if you're awesome.)
So, if all games are created by artists, then after the point that the artists can finish their next piece of art, piracy is morally correct, right? I mean, the artists ultimately want their art to be enjoyed by as many people as possible, damn the repercussions! Piracy is helping them!

At this point, we re-enter the real world.

Capitalism is a system of commerce in which anything that anyone will buy is a tangible product that can--indeed, should--be sold. In this world, the value of an object is weighed in how much people are willing to pay for it. It is a cold and brutal world at times, because in this world human morality and empathy has a pricetag. You can only convince the powerful forces of Capitalism to humane action by offering tax credits, after all.
Game companies run on Capitalism. The artists they employ are hired by businessmen to create a product. The product's worth is not measured by it's artistic value as a source of entertainment, but it's weight in capital. If a given game is not worth enough cold, hard cash, then the businessmen that allow the artists to produce their art will deem the artists as a source of negative cash flow, and will stop supporting the artists. And the artists NEED their support. They need money, facilities, advertising, and training: their paint and canvas.
At this point, the pirate enters the equation.
The artists have a system of ensuring that their product is worth enough money that the businessmen will keep giving them their support. Pirates subvert that system for whatever reason. That's the pragmatist's prospective, of course. Pirates might have great reasons. But whatever those reasons are, they subvert this system and then the artists lose the support they need, and can no longer produce their art.

In the perfect world, the businessman does not exist. But in the pragmatist's reality, he's there, and he allows what we all have to be. If the artist truly didn't want or need the money that he charges, then he wouldn't charge the money.
So, to the ever-fictional Jack, I say this: your desire to play games is understandable. Games exist to be played. But you must be aware of what your actions are costing the world. We all lose something beautiful when you deny the artists their art.
There are games out there that are free, though. You just have to look for them. They aren't as pretty, or as popular. But they're still created by artists, who care deeply about spreading their art to the world. Try hunting down independent games that you can actually afford. It's not the same, but if you have to make a choice, then remember the pragmatist. Because we all want the perfect world, but the pragmatist is still right.

P.S.(This is running on the assumption that all game developers are working solely because they love games, and want to make the best games ever made. There's a grain of truth to that, but many developers are also businessmen. They makes games because they are a profit. However, they are able to make really great games, regardless of their reasons. But they only make games while it's a profit. So if you want to continue to enjoy great games, you have to support them, or their games get less great, and their systems for ensuring that their games remain profitable become more and more draconian. Best to follow their rules before they stop playing the game, and you lose half your major studios.)

P.P.S. (Yeah, this was an avert for supporting independent game developers, which I am one of. I am utterly shameless and unrepentant.)