Mass Effect 3: Retake Mass Effect Ending Child's Play Movement

[Sexy Devil]

Being passionate is fine. Petition all you want. But this is simply using the same kind of business strategy most people on this site frown upon.

The only reason this charity is dragged into this is because it improves the chances of it being noticed. And the worst thing is it stems from simple misunderstanding due to Bioware's overuse of subtlety.

And? We're contending over how charities get their money now? Why is it alright and par for the course if I give money to a charity to save money on my taxes, but suddenly the stupidest idea in the world if I gave money to a charity because I was passionate about a game? Charity comes out ahead either way.

For the record, I have not given any money to a charity nor signed a petition regarding Mass Effect 3. But I think it's kind of cute and touching that people have. Storytelling through gaming is a unique medium, and a relatively new medium. Players felt they had a stake in the authorship of this story, and they're expressing that. Why on earth anyone would feel the need to sneer at it is beyond me.

I believe what Nimcha is saying is that they're using the giving to charity thing to get the popular opinion on their side.

 

[thelonewolf266]

http://retakemasseffect.chipin.com/retake-mass-effect-childs-play


I think this is important enough to warrant it's own thread/a place to allow people that share the same thoughts as the creators of the movement.


No matter what your position on the endings might be, I think this a kind gesture from the ME community, and is nice to see so many people coming together and fight for what they belive in, while doing a good deed.

Really? Okay, I don't have anything against giving to charity, but over the ending of a game? Seriously? I don't even...

Spoiler: Just for good measure in case anyone hasn't quite spoiled it for themselves yet.

I just beat Mass Effect 3, and while I suppose it did have an overall feel of "everything you've done up to this point...might be pointless." I didn't exactly think that the Reapers should just be easily overcome because all of the fleets were working together. Now, I may have felt differently if I hadn't chosen the "Synthesis" ending, but overall I'm pleased with how it was resolved. It didn't leave me wondering what happened to my crew - I saw the Normandy crash on a planet and my crew left the ship. I'm saddened a little that my character can't live happily ever after with his love interest, but I'm also impressed that a game had the balls to kill the main character, even if it was slightly contrived after everything that had happened up to that point.

Shepard resolved the Krogan-Turian-Salarian wars. He got the Geth and Quarians to live peacefully together and gave the Quarians back their homeworld. He united the races of the galaxy in a final push against the Reapers and made them stop their assault. Having him live would be utterly redundant when he was essentially already a god in the (my) game universe. Not giving a secret fourth ending (as far as I know) was a bit disappointing, but I can't complain.

Of course, considering all of the backlash everyone else is throwing out, I won't be surprised if Bioware rushes out some DLC that says "Oh hey everyone, look, Shepard is alive and the galaxy is saved!"

Hell, considering the amount of DLC Mass Effect 2 got I was expecting tons of extra content for Mass Effect 3 anyway, and I was expecting at least one bit to take place after the end of the game.

Sorry I wrote wrote a lot just explaining why I didn't like it as opposed to the reasons you say people don't like it.Its in spoiler tags cause it has spoilers(surprisingly enough).

[spoiler =Spoiler]See people seem to think that's it because its sad that people don't like it that's not true at least for me.In your post you say you solve the Krogan Turian Salarian wars but for what you can complete the game without doing that and with all the ending resulting in the Mass Effect relays being destroyed its not like they could continue the war afterwards anyway.Same thing for the Quarians there entire fleet came to help you at Earth so there is no way that they can return to their world now that the relays are gone.Along with the fact that everyone not just Shepard seems to be screwed the main problem is that its taken out of your hands you are given "victory" by some god like character you don't achieve it or not achieve it on your actions.Then there's the fact that this ultimate evil the reapers have been built up to be and that you've spent the entire last three games desperately resisting aren't in fact evil they are in fact technically a force for good so that sucked.[/spoiler]

 

[LiquidGrape]

@Nimcha: I've heard Bioware called many things, but "subtle" is a new one.

Your contrary stance on everything BioWare is really getting predictable and tiresome.

Out of curiosity, of the 1000's of "lol, Bioware" or "grr, Bioware" posts on the Escapist, what makes this one worthy of being flamed?

Well, it's just that every time I enter a thread with BioWare as its subject matter, I run into your snark.
Not that you shouldn't be allowed to snark at your leisure, or that you're alone in perpetrating snark by any means; but I think it's that slightly condescending tone which really gets my goat.

It might just be that your username is memorable enough to stick in my mind, though, and that's why yours stand out.

In a way, I suppose that's a kind of compliment.

 

[Fappy]

@Nimcha: I've heard Bioware called many things, but "subtle" is a new one.

Your contrary stance on everything BioWare is really getting predictable and tiresome.

Out of curiosity, of the 1000's of "lol, Bioware" or "grr, Bioware" posts on the Escapist, what makes this one worthy of being flamed?

Well, it's just that every time I enter a thread with BioWare as its subject matter, I run into your snark.
Not that you shouldn't be allowed to snark at your leisure, or that you're alone in perpetrating snark by any means; but I think it's that slightly condescending tone which really gets my goat.

It might just be that your username is memorable enough to stick in my mind, though, and that's why yours stand out.

In a way, I suppose that's a kind of compliment.

I like his snark. It's dry. I like dry.

 

[HonestJoe]

OK, by examining the posts in this thread I have worked out that most posters can be lumped into one of two possible groups.

Group A: People with too much time on there hands, who have decided to go on the internet and whine about how the ending of a video game didn't meet their expectations. In the process raising +$30,000 for charity.


Group B: People with too much time on there hands, who have decided to go on the internet and whine about the people who whine about how the ending of a video game didn't meet their expectations. In the process raising $0.00 for charity.

What is interesting is that Group B seem to think that they have some sort of moral superiority; throwing around accusations of fraud and deceit. When by my arithmetic they have -30,000 reasons to justify that belief.


If it isn't obvious from my comments above, I am firmly in Group A.
I donated to what I believe is a worthy charity; primarily to voice my dissatisfaction with what I thought to be a mediocre ending to an otherwise excellent game. But also to help assuage some of the guilt I feel in dedicating so much of my life to a leisure activity, while so many in the world are suffering.

If some consider it "cheap to use charity for something like this"; I think I can live with that.

 

[shrekfan246]

Sorry I wrote wrote a lot just explaining why I didn't like it as opposed to the reasons you say people don't like it.Its in spoiler tags cause it has spoilers(surprisingly enough).

[spoiler =Spoiler]See people seem to think that's it because its sad that people don't like it that's not true at least for me.In your post you say you solve the Krogan Turian Salarian wars but for what you can complete the game without doing that and with all the ending resulting in the Mass Effect relays being destroyed its not like they could continue the war afterwards anyway.Same thing for the Quarians there entire fleet came to help you at Earth so there is no way that they can return to their world now that the relays are gone.Along with the fact that everyone not just Shepard seems to be screwed the main problem is that its taken out of your hands you are given "victory" by some god like character you don't achieve it or not achieve it on your actions.Then there's the fact that this ultimate evil the reapers have been built up to be and that you've spent the entire last three games desperately resisting aren't in fact evil they are in fact technically a force for good so that sucked.[/spoiler]

Spoiler

Personally, I actually liked that the Reapers were "technically" the remnants of the previous galactic civilizations, used as a force to try letting other species evolve when one or more becomes too advanced. It's more morally gray than saying "They're good" or "they're evil", and since Bioware isn't too good at the gray areas I was impressed.

Also, as countless other people in countless other threads have stated, the Mass Effect universe still has FTL travel, just without the Mass Relays everything would take weeks or months longer.

Yes, the ending had plot holes. Yes, it could've been better. But I honestly think that, given the situation, they handled it pretty well. Maybe they could've given more closure by doing a short summation of what happens depending on the ending you took, but I'm also one of the apparently few people who likes filling in blanks for myself.

I won't say people are wrong to dislike the ending, but I just think it's a little childish to make a charity drive based around trying to get it changed.

Also, I never played the original Deus Ex, so I'm not tainted by Bioware "being lazy" and using the same basic endings, which is another reason I've seen people mad about it.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Yes, the ending had plot holes. Yes, it could've been better. But I honestly think that, given the situation, they handled it pretty well. Maybe they could've given more closure by doing a short summation of what happens depending on the ending you took, but I'm also one of the apparently few people who likes filling in blanks for myself.

Well, hell. Why include an ending at all? Just let the players fill in the blanks. You could leave out chunks of the middle and beginning as well, to make it more fun.

 

[Something Amyss]

This is pretty stupid. Using some kind of charity to get people interested in a misguided idea about the ending of a videogame.

Yeah, nice move.

Maybe we could start an alternative "Keep the Ending" Child's Play deal.

 

[Fappy]

OK, by examining the posts in this thread I have worked out that most posters can be lumped into one of two possible groups.

Group A: People with too much time on there hands, who have decided to go on the internet and whine about how the ending of a video game didn't meet their expectations. In the process raising +$30,000 for charity.


Group B: People with too much time on there hands, who have decided to go on the internet and whine about the people who whine about how the ending of a video game didn't meet their expectations. In the process raising $0.00 for charity.

What is interesting is that Group B seem to think that they have some sort of moral superiority; throwing around accusations of fraud and deceit. When by my arithmetic they have -30,000 reasons to justify that belief.


If it isn't obvious from my comments above, I am firmly in Group A.
I donated to what I believe is a worthy charity; primarily to voice my dissatisfaction with what I thought to be a mediocre ending to an otherwise excellent game. But also to help assuage some of the guilt I feel in dedicating so much of my life to a leisure activity, while so many in the world are suffering.

If some consider it "cheap to use charity for something like this"; I think I can live with that.

I agree. I think many people in this thread fail to realize that charities are utilized for all kinds of seemingly meaningless things by millions of special interest groups. Corporations do it. Political campaigns do it. Hell, this is no different than raising money for a local charity to get the word out around your high school that your anime club is looking for new members.

I haven't donated any money yet but I find it hilarious that some people around here find it wrong that I would want to contribute to what I perceive as a worthy cause while simultaneously donating money to charity. The Escapist community has some of the tallest horses I have ever seen.

 

[Scott Beaulieu]

I support child's play, as a type one diabetic that spent a lot of time in hospitals, those video games cut down on a lot of stress.

I loved the Mass Effect series, and I agree that the ending to 3 was disappointing. What I find interesting is the backlash of so many people fighting for a change of ending. If I was EA/Bioware, I would be grinning, and already working on Paid DLC to sell to the masses who want a different ending. I just wish I saw this kind of backlash in the movie industry, so many movies with horrid endings, and people demanding DVD alternate endings, it would be beautiful.

Entitlement or not, I approve of supporting Child's Play all together, just seems though that petitioning EA to make another ending is just giving the company facetime in the Blogs, Papers, etc that it wants, which in the end, leads to them getting more money.

 

[Lunar Templar]

Say what?!?

How exactly does this "kill the credibility" of the charity?

tendji said it better then i would have.

Yeah I feel the same way, basically just using a charity to try and draw attention to how much they didn't like Bioware's ending. I mean it feels like it's just using Child's Play as an engine to say "This ending sucked, look at the donations to charity proving it, so change it!" Instead of the actual purpose which is to give toys to children. That's the main reason this leaves a sour taste in my mouth upon seeing this. Because it makes it not about the charity, but about the frustrations of people over a video game.

you can gloss it over all you want, they are still miss using a charity for they're own petty, selfish reasons

I'd agree with you if it was Child's Play that started the campaign. But it's not - Child's Play has no connection with this campaign other than being the beneficiary of the donations. It has absolutely no effect on their credibility as a charity whatsoever.

I think what you mean is that it speaks to the credibility of the people who started the campaign, "using" the name of the charity to a certain extent to promote their cause. You can argue over how right it is that they're doing that, but I still don't believe the credibility of the charity itself can be called into question.

i still disagree with the reasoning, this is not a good reason to start a charity fund. ether way, i hope it changes nothing, pissing and moaning of this calabure dose not deserve any kind of positive reply.

Spoiler: also, aprently Mr Sterling has weighed in on this to, the silly gits actually emailed him about it, i sugest popcorn

http://www.destructoid.com/raging-mass-effect-3-fans-do-something-for-charity-223811.phtml

 

[irishda]

"We didn't get a super happy ending where everything works out for the best. This is stupid."

Christ, only in western nations is the ending always happy. Read a story from everywhere else in the world and it turns out endings aren't always merry-sunshine. This is that fucking entitlement sense that makes so many people still look down on gamers. How many movie goers start up petitions to change movies? How many art lovers start petitions to change an aspect of a piece of art that they don't like?

This is very important gamers. You won't get everything you want. Get over it. I'm sorry you went into this game expecting something and got something else. The fact that you paid money also doesn't hold weight. You're not paying them to play the story you want, you paid them to play the story they made. RPG games, especially branching ones like Bioware, give you a chance to alter the story. But the overarching story is still theirs, the possible outcomes and different branches are all theirs. Just like Martin Scorsese didn't owe it to any one to make the Departed any fucking happier, or Coppola doesn't owe it to any one to make sure everyone lives in the Godfather.

Way to miss the point. Its not about the hollywood ending. Actually many endings can be better BECAUSE they are not "hollywood". But. The only reason Bioware has been able to tell this story is because their fans have bought their games. So even if the fans do not own the game as such, they are in some way responsible for it being made. Even if that doesnt give them the right to direct it, it DOES give them the right to voice their opinion and be dissatisfied with a product they've spent a lot of time getting to know and love.

Regardless of why you hate the ending the point still stands that only gamers would raise money to change something when every other medium has people just bitching about it for a little while then moving on. Remember the ending to the Sopranos? How much flak they got? People were paying money for cable, for the privilege to watch the show, but I didn't see any sort of fundraisers to convince the producers to change it. I hated the ending to the movie Warrior, and I paid money for it. Don't I deserve the ending I want?

No, no I don't. I know you assume that because you paid money, you're the driving force behind these games being made. And you're right in the most basic economic sense. But you, the customer, contribute nothing to the creative process. You can voice your opinion, you can be dissatisfied. But what I've never seen done before is people ACTIVELY trying to change an aspect of a story they didn't like. That's just beyond entitlement.

 

[Merrick_HLC]

"We didn't get a super happy ending where everything works out for the best. This is stupid."

Christ, only in western nations is the ending always happy. Read a story from everywhere else in the world and it turns out endings aren't always merry-sunshine. This is that fucking entitlement sense that makes so many people still look down on gamers. How many movie goers start up petitions to change movies? How many art lovers start petitions to change an aspect of a piece of art that they don't like?

This is very important gamers. You won't get everything you want. Get over it. I'm sorry you went into this game expecting something and got something else. The fact that you paid money also doesn't hold weight. You're not paying them to play the story you want, you paid them to play the story they made. RPG games, especially branching ones like Bioware, give you a chance to alter the story. But the overarching story is still theirs, the possible outcomes and different branches are all theirs. Just like Martin Scorsese didn't owe it to any one to make the Departed any fucking happier, or Coppola doesn't owe it to any one to make sure everyone lives in the Godfather.

Way to miss the point. Its not about the hollywood ending. Actually many endings can be better BECAUSE they are not "hollywood". But. The only reason Bioware has been able to tell this story is because their fans have bought their games. So even if the fans do not own the game as such, they are in some way responsible for it being made. Even if that doesnt give them the right to direct it, it DOES give them the right to voice their opinion and be dissatisfied with a product they've spent a lot of time getting to know and love.

Regardless of why you hate the ending the point still stands that only gamers would raise money to change something when every other medium has people just bitching about it for a little while then moving on. Remember the ending to the Sopranos? How much flak they got? People were paying money for cable, for the privilege to watch the show, but I didn't see any sort of fundraisers to convince the producers to change it. I hated the ending to the movie Warrior, and I paid money for it. Don't I deserve the ending I want?

No, no I don't. I know you assume that because you paid money, you're the driving force behind these games being made. And you're right in the most basic economic sense. But you, the customer, contribute nothing to the creative process. You can voice your opinion, you can be dissatisfied. But what I've never seen done before is people ACTIVELY trying to change an aspect of a story they didn't like. That's just beyond entitlement.

You've NEVER seen that before?

SO you never heard of Fallout 3?
Or the numerous comic books that have had things retconned because readers didn't like it?
Or the character of Sherlock Holmes existing in stories after he fought Moriarty at Richenbach falls?
Or the recut of the first Highlander sequel to remove all the "they're really aliens" storyline?

 

[tzimize]

"We didn't get a super happy ending where everything works out for the best. This is stupid."

Christ, only in western nations is the ending always happy. Read a story from everywhere else in the world and it turns out endings aren't always merry-sunshine. This is that fucking entitlement sense that makes so many people still look down on gamers. How many movie goers start up petitions to change movies? How many art lovers start petitions to change an aspect of a piece of art that they don't like?

This is very important gamers. You won't get everything you want. Get over it. I'm sorry you went into this game expecting something and got something else. The fact that you paid money also doesn't hold weight. You're not paying them to play the story you want, you paid them to play the story they made. RPG games, especially branching ones like Bioware, give you a chance to alter the story. But the overarching story is still theirs, the possible outcomes and different branches are all theirs. Just like Martin Scorsese didn't owe it to any one to make the Departed any fucking happier, or Coppola doesn't owe it to any one to make sure everyone lives in the Godfather.

Way to miss the point. Its not about the hollywood ending. Actually many endings can be better BECAUSE they are not "hollywood". But. The only reason Bioware has been able to tell this story is because their fans have bought their games. So even if the fans do not own the game as such, they are in some way responsible for it being made. Even if that doesnt give them the right to direct it, it DOES give them the right to voice their opinion and be dissatisfied with a product they've spent a lot of time getting to know and love.

Regardless of why you hate the ending the point still stands that only gamers would raise money to change something when every other medium has people just bitching about it for a little while then moving on. Remember the ending to the Sopranos? How much flak they got? People were paying money for cable, for the privilege to watch the show, but I didn't see any sort of fundraisers to convince the producers to change it. I hated the ending to the movie Warrior, and I paid money for it. Don't I deserve the ending I want?

No, no I don't. I know you assume that because you paid money, you're the driving force behind these games being made. And you're right in the most basic economic sense. But you, the customer, contribute nothing to the creative process. You can voice your opinion, you can be dissatisfied. But what I've never seen done before is people ACTIVELY trying to change an aspect of a story they didn't like. That's just beyond entitlement.

Tim Schafer, an actual game developer, disagrees.

Kickstarter is the same as this, just in reverse. He gets the money beforehand, instead of after game development. And everyone who pays is entitled to voice their opinion and maybe even steer the development somewhat (not every single one of course, but as a whole).

And do you really think gamers contribute nothing? What about all the data ME has sent back to bioware? What party members are being used the most, what choices are most popular etc. Do you really think this data has nothing to do with how they develop the next game?

We're already contributing in the creative process. Not buy writing, but by living the story.

We may not have copyright to Garrus or Tali or the Normandy, but goodness knows that most fans have at least as much heart invested in these creations as their original creators. They come alive in each individuals mind. Wanting some closure for your characters is not entitlement. Cutting the story short is not only bad storytelling, its downright rude treatment of your faithful fans.

And once again you miss the point. It is NOT about getting the ending you WANT. Its NOT about Shepard surviving or not (even if it would be nice with at least one ending where she lives in MY opinion), it is about CLOSURE. Ending the story. Knowing what happened to all the characters we've followed for so long. Knowing what happened to all those fucking armadas we collected to fight the reapers, who lived, who died. THATS what its about.

I didnt see Sopranos, and considering what I've read about how it ended I'm fucking thrilled about that decision.

I read an article defending the ending on Penny Arcade. And the ONLY thing I agree about is that all this rage and despair from fans is one of the best signs a developer can get that their story has been deeply effective on so many levels. There is no denying this. If we didnt care, we wouldnt rage. We would simply turn it off and move on.

But we do care.

 

[irishda]

Regardless of why you hate the ending the point still stands that only gamers would raise money to change something when every other medium has people just bitching about it for a little while then moving on. Remember the ending to the Sopranos? How much flak they got? People were paying money for cable, for the privilege to watch the show, but I didn't see any sort of fundraisers to convince the producers to change it. I hated the ending to the movie Warrior, and I paid money for it. Don't I deserve the ending I want?

No, no I don't. I know you assume that because you paid money, you're the driving force behind these games being made. And you're right in the most basic economic sense. But you, the customer, contribute nothing to the creative process. You can voice your opinion, you can be dissatisfied. But what I've never seen done before is people ACTIVELY trying to change an aspect of a story they didn't like. That's just beyond entitlement.

You've NEVER seen that before?

SO you never heard of Fallout 3?
Or the numerous comic books that have had things retconned because readers didn't like it?
Or the character of Sherlock Holmes existing in stories after he fought Moriarty at Richenbach falls?
Or the recut of the first Highlander sequel to remove all the "they're really aliens" storyline?

You're right. Good examples: another video game, an industry that exists entirely around NEVER providing an ending (how many fucking spider-mans and batmans are there at this point?), an early Victorian serial that's basically the precursor to comics, and one shitty movie franchise. Besides, comic book stories? Really? Yeah, THOSE are some earth-shatteringly good pieces of literature there.

The comic book industry is rather closely tied to the video game industry, and their fanbase is even more ostracized by the general public than video gamers. Video gamers aren't gonna shake the reputation as whiny, sexist, entitled man-children with crap like this and comparing them to a customer-base of an industry that also vehemently defends their misogyny and inability to let anything go isn't helping either.

 

[irishda]

Regardless of why you hate the ending the point still stands that only gamers would raise money to change something when every other medium has people just bitching about it for a little while then moving on. Remember the ending to the Sopranos? How much flak they got? People were paying money for cable, for the privilege to watch the show, but I didn't see any sort of fundraisers to convince the producers to change it. I hated the ending to the movie Warrior, and I paid money for it. Don't I deserve the ending I want?

No, no I don't. I know you assume that because you paid money, you're the driving force behind these games being made. And you're right in the most basic economic sense. But you, the customer, contribute nothing to the creative process. You can voice your opinion, you can be dissatisfied. But what I've never seen done before is people ACTIVELY trying to change an aspect of a story they didn't like. That's just beyond entitlement.

Tim Schafer, an actual game developer, disagrees.

Kickstarter is the same as this, just in reverse. He gets the money beforehand, instead of after game development. And everyone who pays is entitled to voice their opinion and maybe even steer the development somewhat (not every single one of course, but as a whole).

And do you really think gamers contribute nothing? What about all the data ME has sent back to bioware? What party members are being used the most, what choices are most popular etc. Do you really think this data has nothing to do with how they develop the next game?

We're already contributing in the creative process. Not buy writing, but by living the story.

We may not have copyright to Garrus or Tali or the Normandy, but goodness knows that most fans have at least as much heart invested in these creations as their original creators. They come alive in each individuals mind. Wanting some closure for your characters is not entitlement. Cutting the story short is not only bad storytelling, its downright rude treatment of your faithful fans.

And once again you miss the point. It is NOT about getting the ending you WANT. Its NOT about Shepard surviving or not (even if it would be nice with at least one ending where she lives in MY opinion), it is about CLOSURE. Ending the story. Knowing what happened to all the characters we've followed for so long. Knowing what happened to all those fucking armadas we collected to fight the reapers, who lived, who died. THATS what its about.

I didnt see Sopranos, and considering what I've read about how it ended I'm fucking thrilled about that decision.

I read an article defending the ending on Penny Arcade. And the ONLY thing I agree about is that all this rage and despair from fans is one of the best signs a developer can get that their story has been deeply effective on so many levels. There is no denying this. If we didnt care, we wouldnt rage. We would simply turn it off and move on.

But we do care.

One developer looking to people who contribute for advice for a product with a quality of which we'll have no idea. But, spoiler alert, we've all seen what happens whenever someone tries to make something that applies to a broad committee's sense of what's good and what's bad.

And, after all those points you raise, about character closure and bad storytelling, regardless of whether or not you're right on it being the best ending, it still ends up being "I did not like the ending they gave. I want it to be the ending I wanted." The only solution, to make sure this never happens again, is either

A: constantly asking fans for what they want as concerned with stories. Not only are there no more surprises in stories, but fairly bad stories continue to get even shittier due to too much input.

B: constant retcons and game changers based on what fans want, like comics. And we've all seen how great the overarching story-lines of comics are. They're like soap operas for men.

 

[tzimize]

Regardless of why you hate the ending the point still stands that only gamers would raise money to change something when every other medium has people just bitching about it for a little while then moving on. Remember the ending to the Sopranos? How much flak they got? People were paying money for cable, for the privilege to watch the show, but I didn't see any sort of fundraisers to convince the producers to change it. I hated the ending to the movie Warrior, and I paid money for it. Don't I deserve the ending I want?

No, no I don't. I know you assume that because you paid money, you're the driving force behind these games being made. And you're right in the most basic economic sense. But you, the customer, contribute nothing to the creative process. You can voice your opinion, you can be dissatisfied. But what I've never seen done before is people ACTIVELY trying to change an aspect of a story they didn't like. That's just beyond entitlement.

Tim Schafer, an actual game developer, disagrees.

Kickstarter is the same as this, just in reverse. He gets the money beforehand, instead of after game development. And everyone who pays is entitled to voice their opinion and maybe even steer the development somewhat (not every single one of course, but as a whole).

And do you really think gamers contribute nothing? What about all the data ME has sent back to bioware? What party members are being used the most, what choices are most popular etc. Do you really think this data has nothing to do with how they develop the next game?

We're already contributing in the creative process. Not buy writing, but by living the story.

We may not have copyright to Garrus or Tali or the Normandy, but goodness knows that most fans have at least as much heart invested in these creations as their original creators. They come alive in each individuals mind. Wanting some closure for your characters is not entitlement. Cutting the story short is not only bad storytelling, its downright rude treatment of your faithful fans.

And once again you miss the point. It is NOT about getting the ending you WANT. Its NOT about Shepard surviving or not (even if it would be nice with at least one ending where she lives in MY opinion), it is about CLOSURE. Ending the story. Knowing what happened to all the characters we've followed for so long. Knowing what happened to all those fucking armadas we collected to fight the reapers, who lived, who died. THATS what its about.

I didnt see Sopranos, and considering what I've read about how it ended I'm fucking thrilled about that decision.

I read an article defending the ending on Penny Arcade. And the ONLY thing I agree about is that all this rage and despair from fans is one of the best signs a developer can get that their story has been deeply effective on so many levels. There is no denying this. If we didnt care, we wouldnt rage. We would simply turn it off and move on.

But we do care.

One developer looking to people who contribute for advice for a product with a quality of which we'll have no idea. But, spoiler alert, we've all seen what happens whenever someone tries to make something that applies to a broad committee's sense of what's good and what's bad.

And, after all those points you raise, about character closure and bad storytelling, regardless of whether or not you're right on it being the best ending, it still ends up being "I did not like the ending they gave. I want it to be the ending I wanted." The only solution, to make sure this never happens again, is either

A: constantly asking fans for what they want as concerned with stories. Not only are there no more surprises in stories, but fairly bad stories continue to get even shittier due to too much input.

B: constant retcons and game changers based on what fans want, like comics. And we've all seen how great the overarching story-lines of comics are. They're like soap operas for men.

Humbug. If you generalize to that extreme point there is no use arguing anything.

Have you played RDR? Let me comment on that ending then.

Spoiler

In the final missions the protagonist is spending time with his son and wife after spending the entire game looking for them. It was some of the most emotional scenes I have ever seen in a video game, even if the end had already been spoiled for me. The protagonist was shot. And I was depressed about it. I dont play games to experience the harsh brutality of reality. If I want that I can just turn on the news. However, I continued playing, and got to play an epilogue as the protagonists son.

As that character I hunted down my fathers killer and the killers wife. I shot her down in cold blood, and shot down the killer afterwards. Then the game was "over".

It wasnt a happy ending, and it wasnt the ending I wanted. But it was AN ENDING. It was CLOSURE. The characters were played out and the loose ends were no more.

This is the problem with the ME3 ending. There is absolutely no closure and it doesnt make sense. I dont need to see an ending where everything happens as I want, I just need to see THE END.

 

[irishda]

OK, by examining the posts in this thread I have worked out that most posters can be lumped into one of two possible groups.

Group A: People with too much time on there hands, who have decided to go on the internet and whine about how the ending of a video game didn't meet their expectations. In the process raising +$30,000 for charity.


Group B: People with too much time on there hands, who have decided to go on the internet and whine about the people who whine about how the ending of a video game didn't meet their expectations. In the process raising $0.00 for charity.

What is interesting is that Group B seem to think that they have some sort of moral superiority; throwing around accusations of fraud and deceit. When by my arithmetic they have -30,000 reasons to justify that belief.


If it isn't obvious from my comments above, I am firmly in Group A.
I donated to what I believe is a worthy charity; primarily to voice my dissatisfaction with what I thought to be a mediocre ending to an otherwise excellent game. But also to help assuage some of the guilt I feel in dedicating so much of my life to a leisure activity, while so many in the world are suffering.

If some consider it "cheap to use charity for something like this"; I think I can live with that.

That reminds me of the time I realized I was going to stop going to church. I took my little sister to church at the behest of my dad, and the preacher was talking about how people, who are good but don't believe in Jesus, won't make it to heaven because they don't believe. I couldn't help but think, "If people who do good, but don't believe in God or heaven or Jesus, then they're not doing good because they expect a reward. They're doing good because it's just the right thing to do. And if they don't get into heaven, then heaven doesn't sound all that great."

Now the point of that is you're generosity is based on selfish interests. And because of that, that actually makes you worse than the people who didn't donate to the charity under your cause. Even though they gave no money, they also weren't dishonest about who they are as people.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

You're right. Good examples: another video game, an industry that exists entirely around NEVER providing an ending (how many fucking spider-mans and batmans are there at this point?), an early Victorian serial that's basically the precursor to comics, and one shitty movie franchise. Besides, comic book stories? Really? Yeah, THOSE are some earth-shatteringly good pieces of literature there.

The comic book industry is rather closely tied to the video game industry, and their fanbase is even more ostracized by the general public than video gamers. Video gamers aren't gonna shake the reputation as whiny, sexist, entitled man-children with crap like this and comparing them to a customer-base of an industry that also vehemently defends their misogyny and inability to let anything go isn't helping either.

From some random poster in another thread.

Our concerns are valid and we wish to convey them in a civil and mature manner, they are as follows:
1). We deeply apologize for the hateful messages that anyone has received. We never intended for anyone to be offended. That being said, we are outraged at how the mainstream journalists and several Bioware employees?you know who you are?belittle us at every turn, and have NEVER ONCE mentioned our true concern (point number 2)
2). Bioware, you marketed for five years that our decisions mattered, that they would lead to unique and vastly different outcomes. We poured hundreds of hours and dollars into this series believing whole-heartedly that our choices made a difference. It is explicitly stated in innumerable interviews, dev diaries, etc that our past choices from all three games will matter in the end. This is simply not the case with ME3, in fact nothing in the past three games mattered at all in the last ten minutes.
3). Video games as art seems to be a popular defense, however you are using an antiquated definition of art to describe video games. No painter has ever released a patch, a paid ?expansion? to her/his work, no one has ever had to pay extra after sitting through the first three movements to listen to the fourth movement of a symphony, or pay for an extra chapter, or new character/development, in a book?yet these are common occurrences in video games today. Video games bring about a new definition of art, where the art can be tailored and changed at will; several Bioware employees and mainstream gaming journalists have tried to define video games as art but in static terms. Mass Effect is a fluid trilogy of art, there is nothing about it that lends it to be defined by traditional beliefs of what ?art? is.
4). All that we want is a fair voice in the mainstream gaming news networks. We know that there are many staff members in your employ that feel the way we do. Let them speak! Again the main grievance we have (point number 2) has never been mentioned by IGN, Gamespot, G4TV, Destructoid, etc in any of their discussions of this issue in official articles and videos. We believe that this is the biggest offense of them all and demand an explanation for not taking our concerns seriously. We implore our critics to read through the mass effect 3 social forums and our 1000+ thread; 90% of the discussion is civil, sophisticated and if you actually spent time learning about the people who have insulted you may actually agree with us.
5). Finally, we would like to give a gracious thank you to all the media outlets who have given us fair coverage and taken our concerns seriously. We truly appreciate the effort.

Y'know, I see a lot of people who are upset about the ending being rational, and polite, and constructive. And I see a lot of people, like yourself, just flat out frothing at the mouth in the rush to attack them.

I really don't get it.

And what the hell does sexism and misogyny have to do with the whole endings thing? Friggin' ridiculous. Go for Godwin's Law next, I'm sure with effort you can draw some parallels between people unhappy with the endings and Hitler.

Now the point of that is you're generosity is based on selfish interests. And because of that, that actually makes you worse than the people who didn't donate to the charity under your cause. Even though they gave no money, they also weren't dishonest about who they are as people.

And this? Might be the stupidest rationalization I've heard yet.

 

[irishda]

Regardless of why you hate the ending the point still stands that only gamers would raise money to change something when every other medium has people just bitching about it for a little while then moving on. Remember the ending to the Sopranos? How much flak they got? People were paying money for cable, for the privilege to watch the show, but I didn't see any sort of fundraisers to convince the producers to change it. I hated the ending to the movie Warrior, and I paid money for it. Don't I deserve the ending I want?

No, no I don't. I know you assume that because you paid money, you're the driving force behind these games being made. And you're right in the most basic economic sense. But you, the customer, contribute nothing to the creative process. You can voice your opinion, you can be dissatisfied. But what I've never seen done before is people ACTIVELY trying to change an aspect of a story they didn't like. That's just beyond entitlement.

Tim Schafer, an actual game developer, disagrees.

Kickstarter is the same as this, just in reverse. He gets the money beforehand, instead of after game development. And everyone who pays is entitled to voice their opinion and maybe even steer the development somewhat (not every single one of course, but as a whole).

And do you really think gamers contribute nothing? What about all the data ME has sent back to bioware? What party members are being used the most, what choices are most popular etc. Do you really think this data has nothing to do with how they develop the next game?

We're already contributing in the creative process. Not buy writing, but by living the story.

We may not have copyright to Garrus or Tali or the Normandy, but goodness knows that most fans have at least as much heart invested in these creations as their original creators. They come alive in each individuals mind. Wanting some closure for your characters is not entitlement. Cutting the story short is not only bad storytelling, its downright rude treatment of your faithful fans.

And once again you miss the point. It is NOT about getting the ending you WANT. Its NOT about Shepard surviving or not (even if it would be nice with at least one ending where she lives in MY opinion), it is about CLOSURE. Ending the story. Knowing what happened to all the characters we've followed for so long. Knowing what happened to all those fucking armadas we collected to fight the reapers, who lived, who died. THATS what its about.

I didnt see Sopranos, and considering what I've read about how it ended I'm fucking thrilled about that decision.

I read an article defending the ending on Penny Arcade. And the ONLY thing I agree about is that all this rage and despair from fans is one of the best signs a developer can get that their story has been deeply effective on so many levels. There is no denying this. If we didnt care, we wouldnt rage. We would simply turn it off and move on.

But we do care.

One developer looking to people who contribute for advice for a product with a quality of which we'll have no idea. But, spoiler alert, we've all seen what happens whenever someone tries to make something that applies to a broad committee's sense of what's good and what's bad.

And, after all those points you raise, about character closure and bad storytelling, regardless of whether or not you're right on it being the best ending, it still ends up being "I did not like the ending they gave. I want it to be the ending I wanted." The only solution, to make sure this never happens again, is either

A: constantly asking fans for what they want as concerned with stories. Not only are there no more surprises in stories, but fairly bad stories continue to get even shittier due to too much input.

B: constant retcons and game changers based on what fans want, like comics. And we've all seen how great the overarching story-lines of comics are. They're like soap operas for men.

Humbug. If you generalize to that extreme point there is no use arguing anything.

Have you played RDR? Let me comment on that ending then.

Spoiler

In the final missions the protagonist is spending time with his son and wife after spending the entire game looking for them. It was some of the most emotional scenes I have ever seen in a video game, even if the end had already been spoiled for me. The protagonist was shot. And I was depressed about it. I dont play games to experience the harsh brutality of reality. If I want that I can just turn on the news. However, I continued playing, and got to play an epilogue as the protagonists son.

As that character I hunted down my fathers killer and the killers wife. I shot her down in cold blood, and shot down the killer afterwards. Then the game was "over".

It wasnt a happy ending, and it wasnt the ending I wanted. But it was AN ENDING. It was CLOSURE. The characters were played out and the loose ends were no more.

This is the problem with the ME3 ending. There is absolutely no closure and it doesnt make sense. I dont need to see an ending where everything happens as I want, I just need to see THE END.

Yeah, and I hated that ending. That's when I returned it and bought another game instead. I didn't whine "I love this story, but I want to change small parts of it so it can be the story I envisioned instead of the story they made." Welcome to the heart-rending duality of being a fanboy of a franchise. On the one hand, you love something because you've loved earlier iterations of it. On the other hand, newer works made under the same banner might be shit. If they're not up to your standards, STOP BUYING THEM. Return your mass effect 3 if you hate it so much. People fuck up stories, it happens. Not everyone is Shakespeare. That's when you move on to a better story.