Mass Effect 3: Retake Mass Effect Ending Child's Play Movement

[Merrick_HLC]

Regardless of why you hate the ending the point still stands that only gamers would raise money to change something when every other medium has people just bitching about it for a little while then moving on. Remember the ending to the Sopranos? How much flak they got? People were paying money for cable, for the privilege to watch the show, but I didn't see any sort of fundraisers to convince the producers to change it. I hated the ending to the movie Warrior, and I paid money for it. Don't I deserve the ending I want?

No, no I don't. I know you assume that because you paid money, you're the driving force behind these games being made. And you're right in the most basic economic sense. But you, the customer, contribute nothing to the creative process. You can voice your opinion, you can be dissatisfied. But what I've never seen done before is people ACTIVELY trying to change an aspect of a story they didn't like. That's just beyond entitlement.

You've NEVER seen that before?

SO you never heard of Fallout 3?
Or the numerous comic books that have had things retconned because readers didn't like it?
Or the character of Sherlock Holmes existing in stories after he fought Moriarty at Richenbach falls?
Or the recut of the first Highlander sequel to remove all the "they're really aliens" storyline?

You're right. Good examples: another video game, an industry that exists entirely around NEVER providing an ending (how many fucking spider-mans and batmans are there at this point?), an early Victorian serial that's basically the precursor to comics, and one shitty movie franchise. Besides, comic book stories? Really? Yeah, THOSE are some earth-shatteringly good pieces of literature there.

The comic book industry is rather closely tied to the video game industry, and their fanbase is even more ostracized by the general public than video gamers. Video gamers aren't gonna shake the reputation as whiny, sexist, entitled man-children with crap like this and comparing them to a customer-base of an industry that also vehemently defends their misogyny and inability to let anything go isn't helping either.

Most comics fans are actually opposed to a lot of the negative woman stereotypes in comics.
When they changed Amanda Waller to be a stereotypical busty lady instead of her previous fat self, when they made Starfire into more slutty fanservice than an actual character, comics fans revolted and disliked these changes.

You're stereotyping a fanbase just to make easy insults based on, well, stereotypes.
----

Also.
The reason I for example dislike the ME3 ending is because it's POOR storytelling.
It's (IMO) a tossed in deus-ex-machina which directly contradicts the rules set up and themes shown throughout the series.

The series set us up to think certain rules applied in the universe and then switched them all around in the last few minutes.

That's POOR storytelling.
---
To ask the author to write another chapter isn't 'entitlement' or 'immaturity'

I have seen no one demanding "I want an ending that's exactly like this'
I have seen people asking for an ending they may actually enjoy.

The whole "You have no right to request that" is, to me, ludicrous and actually an immature argument.

There will be DLC.
Why are fans not allowed to request what DLC they would most want?

 

[irishda]

You're right. Good examples: another video game, an industry that exists entirely around NEVER providing an ending (how many fucking spider-mans and batmans are there at this point?), an early Victorian serial that's basically the precursor to comics, and one shitty movie franchise. Besides, comic book stories? Really? Yeah, THOSE are some earth-shatteringly good pieces of literature there.

The comic book industry is rather closely tied to the video game industry, and their fanbase is even more ostracized by the general public than video gamers. Video gamers aren't gonna shake the reputation as whiny, sexist, entitled man-children with crap like this and comparing them to a customer-base of an industry that also vehemently defends their misogyny and inability to let anything go isn't helping either.

Y'know, I see a lot of people who are upset about the ending being rational, and polite, and constructive. And I see a lot of people, like yourself, just flat out frothing at the mouth in the rush to attack them.

I really don't get it.

And what the hell does sexism and misogyny have to do with the whole endings thing? Friggin' ridiculous. Go for Godwin's Law next, I'm sure with effort you can draw some parallels between people unhappy with the endings and Hitler.

I was talking about the stereotypes the video game community will never get over, this measure of self-entitlement being one of them.

Now the point of that is you're generosity is based on selfish interests. And because of that, that actually makes you worse than the people who didn't donate to the charity under your cause. Even though they gave no money, they also weren't dishonest about who they are as people.

And this? Might be the stupidest rationalization I've heard yet.

Really? You mean giving money to kids you wouldn't otherwise have given if you didn't think it would help you get your way? That doesn't sound at all despicable or terrible to you?

 

[tzimize]

Regardless of why you hate the ending the point still stands that only gamers would raise money to change something when every other medium has people just bitching about it for a little while then moving on. Remember the ending to the Sopranos? How much flak they got? People were paying money for cable, for the privilege to watch the show, but I didn't see any sort of fundraisers to convince the producers to change it. I hated the ending to the movie Warrior, and I paid money for it. Don't I deserve the ending I want?

No, no I don't. I know you assume that because you paid money, you're the driving force behind these games being made. And you're right in the most basic economic sense. But you, the customer, contribute nothing to the creative process. You can voice your opinion, you can be dissatisfied. But what I've never seen done before is people ACTIVELY trying to change an aspect of a story they didn't like. That's just beyond entitlement.

Tim Schafer, an actual game developer, disagrees.

Kickstarter is the same as this, just in reverse. He gets the money beforehand, instead of after game development. And everyone who pays is entitled to voice their opinion and maybe even steer the development somewhat (not every single one of course, but as a whole).

And do you really think gamers contribute nothing? What about all the data ME has sent back to bioware? What party members are being used the most, what choices are most popular etc. Do you really think this data has nothing to do with how they develop the next game?

We're already contributing in the creative process. Not buy writing, but by living the story.

We may not have copyright to Garrus or Tali or the Normandy, but goodness knows that most fans have at least as much heart invested in these creations as their original creators. They come alive in each individuals mind. Wanting some closure for your characters is not entitlement. Cutting the story short is not only bad storytelling, its downright rude treatment of your faithful fans.

And once again you miss the point. It is NOT about getting the ending you WANT. Its NOT about Shepard surviving or not (even if it would be nice with at least one ending where she lives in MY opinion), it is about CLOSURE. Ending the story. Knowing what happened to all the characters we've followed for so long. Knowing what happened to all those fucking armadas we collected to fight the reapers, who lived, who died. THATS what its about.

I didnt see Sopranos, and considering what I've read about how it ended I'm fucking thrilled about that decision.

I read an article defending the ending on Penny Arcade. And the ONLY thing I agree about is that all this rage and despair from fans is one of the best signs a developer can get that their story has been deeply effective on so many levels. There is no denying this. If we didnt care, we wouldnt rage. We would simply turn it off and move on.

But we do care.

One developer looking to people who contribute for advice for a product with a quality of which we'll have no idea. But, spoiler alert, we've all seen what happens whenever someone tries to make something that applies to a broad committee's sense of what's good and what's bad.

And, after all those points you raise, about character closure and bad storytelling, regardless of whether or not you're right on it being the best ending, it still ends up being "I did not like the ending they gave. I want it to be the ending I wanted." The only solution, to make sure this never happens again, is either

A: constantly asking fans for what they want as concerned with stories. Not only are there no more surprises in stories, but fairly bad stories continue to get even shittier due to too much input.

B: constant retcons and game changers based on what fans want, like comics. And we've all seen how great the overarching story-lines of comics are. They're like soap operas for men.

Humbug. If you generalize to that extreme point there is no use arguing anything.

Have you played RDR? Let me comment on that ending then.

Spoiler

In the final missions the protagonist is spending time with his son and wife after spending the entire game looking for them. It was some of the most emotional scenes I have ever seen in a video game, even if the end had already been spoiled for me. The protagonist was shot. And I was depressed about it. I dont play games to experience the harsh brutality of reality. If I want that I can just turn on the news. However, I continued playing, and got to play an epilogue as the protagonists son.

As that character I hunted down my fathers killer and the killers wife. I shot her down in cold blood, and shot down the killer afterwards. Then the game was "over".

It wasnt a happy ending, and it wasnt the ending I wanted. But it was AN ENDING. It was CLOSURE. The characters were played out and the loose ends were no more.

This is the problem with the ME3 ending. There is absolutely no closure and it doesnt make sense. I dont need to see an ending where everything happens as I want, I just need to see THE END.

Yeah, and I hated that ending. That's when I returned it and bought another game instead. I didn't whine "I love this story, but I want to change small parts of it so it can be the story I envisioned instead of the story they made." Welcome to the heart-rending duality of being a fanboy of a franchise. On the one hand, you love something because you've loved earlier iterations of it. On the other hand, newer works made under the same banner might be shit. If they're not up to your standards, STOP BUYING THEM. Return your mass effect 3 if you hate it so much. People fuck up stories, it happens. Not everyone is Shakespeare. That's when you move on to a better story.

Yes. And I will. I'm extremely conflicted about my feelings. On one hand I'm THRILLED I didnt waste money on ME3, but rather borrowed it instead. On the other hand I would LOVE to give the developers a lot of money for all the OTHER great moments in the game. But the sense of betrayal is just too big. I cant get over it.

And its 100% certain that I wont be buying this, or the next ME game.

Uff. I'll stop entering these threads too. I think I'm done venting. I just need to be done being depressed too.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Really? You mean giving money to kids you wouldn't otherwise have given if you didn't think it would help you get your way? That doesn't sound at all despicable or terrible to you?

No, I don't think charities receiving money sounds despicable and terrible. I think sneering and ranting on forums about charities receiving money, for any reason, and then attempting to present yourself as having somehow seized the ethical high ground is so obtuse as to be laughable, though.

So, good work on that front, I guess.

I was talking about the stereotypes the video game community will never get over, this measure of self-entitlement being one of them.

Yeah, I know what you were talking about. The parallels you were drawing had no place in the discussion. If you were interested in having a civil discussion instead just attacking, then you would acknowledge that.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

The vocal majority of the fans are not requesting it, they're demanding it, and furthermore want it to not only be free, but also come bundled with an official apology for the current endings.

A majority! Can I see the data you used to come to this conclusion?

 

[Fappy]

Regardless of why you hate the ending the point still stands that only gamers would raise money to change something when every other medium has people just bitching about it for a little while then moving on. Remember the ending to the Sopranos? How much flak they got? People were paying money for cable, for the privilege to watch the show, but I didn't see any sort of fundraisers to convince the producers to change it. I hated the ending to the movie Warrior, and I paid money for it. Don't I deserve the ending I want?

No, no I don't. I know you assume that because you paid money, you're the driving force behind these games being made. And you're right in the most basic economic sense. But you, the customer, contribute nothing to the creative process. You can voice your opinion, you can be dissatisfied. But what I've never seen done before is people ACTIVELY trying to change an aspect of a story they didn't like. That's just beyond entitlement.

You've NEVER seen that before?

SO you never heard of Fallout 3?
Or the numerous comic books that have had things retconned because readers didn't like it?
Or the character of Sherlock Holmes existing in stories after he fought Moriarty at Richenbach falls?
Or the recut of the first Highlander sequel to remove all the "they're really aliens" storyline?

You're right. Good examples: another video game, an industry that exists entirely around NEVER providing an ending (how many fucking spider-mans and batmans are there at this point?), an early Victorian serial that's basically the precursor to comics, and one shitty movie franchise. Besides, comic book stories? Really? Yeah, THOSE are some earth-shatteringly good pieces of literature there.

The comic book industry is rather closely tied to the video game industry, and their fanbase is even more ostracized by the general public than video gamers. Video gamers aren't gonna shake the reputation as whiny, sexist, entitled man-children with crap like this and comparing them to a customer-base of an industry that also vehemently defends their misogyny and inability to let anything go isn't helping either.

Most comics fans are actually opposed to a lot of the negative woman stereotypes in comics.
When they changed Amanda Waller to be a stereotypical busty lady instead of her previous fat self, when they made Starfire into more slutty fanservice than an actual character, comics fans revolted and disliked these changes.

You're stereotyping a fanbase just to make easy insults based on, well, stereotypes.
----

Also.
The reason I for example dislike the ME3 ending is because it's POOR storytelling.
It's (IMO) a tossed in deus-ex-machina which directly contradicts the rules set up and themes shown throughout the series.

The series set us up to think certain rules applied in the universe and then switched them all around in the last few minutes.

That's POOR storytelling.
---
To ask the author to write another chapter isn't 'entitlement' or 'immaturity'

I have seen no one demanding "I want an ending that's exactly like this'
I have seen people asking for an ending they may actually enjoy.

The whole "You have no right to request that" is, to me, ludicrous and actually an immature argument.

There will be DLC.
Why are fans not allowed to request what DLC they would most want?

The vocal majority of the fans are not requesting it, they're demanding it, and furthermore want it to not only be free, but also come bundled with an official apology for the current endings.

Most fans have admitted that they would pay for it if they have to. Personally I'd prefer it be free. The less damage they can cause their brand at this point the better.

 

[irishda]

---
To ask the author to write another chapter isn't 'entitlement' or 'immaturity'

Then you're not a writer. When an author publishes a work, we don't ask them to add another chapter. We either accept it as a good story or hate it as a bad story. To ask someone to write more for their own story is a disservice because they wouldn't have stopped if they didn't have more to add. This is the result of a person's creative inspiration. To ask people to be inspired to make more is a bad thing because you're forcing a process that can't be forced.

Maybe Bioware does have more to this story's end that will be released in coming days as DLC, and they're just holding out cause they know everyone (especially the people that complained so bitterly about how much they hate Bioware and the ending) will rush out to snap it up. And then people will complain about the business model despite simultaneously supporting it. But as it stands for now, this is the ending you get. If you don't like the book, bring the book back and find an author that knows how to end a story.

 

[irishda]

Really? You mean giving money to kids you wouldn't otherwise have given if you didn't think it would help you get your way? That doesn't sound at all despicable or terrible to you?

No, I don't think charities receiving money sounds despicable and terrible. I think sneering and ranting on forums about charities receiving money, for any reason, and then attempting to present yourself as having somehow seized the ethical high ground is so obtuse as to be laughable, though.

So, good work on that front, I guess.

I was talking about the stereotypes the video game community will never get over, this measure of self-entitlement being one of them.

Yeah, I know what you were talking about. The parallels you were drawing had no place in the discussion. If you were interested in having a civil discussion instead just attacking, then you would acknowledge that.

The ends justifies the means eh.

 

[Merrick_HLC]

The vocal majority of the fans are not requesting it, they're demanding it, and furthermore want it to not only be free, but also come bundled with an official apology for the current endings.

Ah but "demand" can easily be read into lots of stuff.

Most fans of anything, especially online, don't add "Please and thank you" to everything.
The free I'll give you, most feel that way because in their minds it's equivalent to a patch.

If you bought a FPS and felt the shooting mechanics were broken I doubt you'd respond well to being charged for a patch to fix it after all.

While I've seen a FEW seem to want an apology, the emphasis is few, and I doubt even many of them were serious.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

The ends justifies the means eh.

Yes, because calling attention to a 100% harmless petition by donating money to a worthy charity is totally the kind of situation that calls for invoking "the ends justify the means".

Are any more clowns going to come out of that car you're driving, or is that about it now?

 

[Merrick_HLC]

---
To ask the author to write another chapter isn't 'entitlement' or 'immaturity'

Then you're not a writer. When an author publishes a work, we don't ask them to add another chapter. We either accept it as a good story or hate it as a bad story. To ask someone to write more for their own story is a disservice because they wouldn't have stopped if they didn't have more to add. This is the result of a person's creative inspiration. To ask people to be inspired to make more is a bad thing because you're forcing a process that can't be forced.

Maybe Bioware does have more to this story's end that will be released in coming days as DLC, and they're just holding out cause they know everyone (especially the people that complained so bitterly about how much they hate Bioware and the ending) will rush out to snap it up. And then people will complain about the business model despite simultaneously supporting it. But as it stands for now, this is the ending you get. If you don't like the book, bring the book back and find an author that knows how to end a story.

Actually I have written.
I'll admit I'm no published author, I've never been paid for it, and it's a hobby more than anything.

My stories were published entirely freely on various websites, and ya know what....I got people requesting I write more of X or Y, I got people making suggestions for what should happen in future chapters if I chose to write them.

I didn't view any of those reactions, even the people who bashed my writing, as "entitled immature" people.

Sometimes I took their suggestions to heart and tried to give them what they wanted.
Sometimes I ignored the suggestions and did other things.

I never once begrudged anyone for suggesting or wanting certain things in the story.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I never once begrudged anyone for suggesting or wanting certain things in the story.

How DARE they develop an emotional stake or interest in the things you're writing? The proper response is clearly to sneer at them.

 

[irishda]

Most fans have admitted that they would pay for it if they have to. Personally I'd prefer it be free. The less damage they can cause their brand at this point the better.

Then what damage is done to the brand if everyone's going to continue to support it, albeit begrudgingly?

 

[Fappy]

Most fans have admitted that they would pay for it if they have to. Personally I'd prefer it be free. The less damage they can cause their brand at this point the better.

Then what damage is done to the brand if everyone's going to continue to support it, albeit begrudgingly?

The implication that if they actually need to pay for it they will no longer do business with Bioware after completing the true ME trilogy experience. I know its likely a hollow threat by most, but it is very likely I will avoid Bioware future titles if they pull that shit. I'm already not buying the "From Ashes" DLC so we'll see how much they can destroy my perception of them.

 

[irishda]

---
To ask the author to write another chapter isn't 'entitlement' or 'immaturity'

Then you're not a writer. When an author publishes a work, we don't ask them to add another chapter. We either accept it as a good story or hate it as a bad story. To ask someone to write more for their own story is a disservice because they wouldn't have stopped if they didn't have more to add. This is the result of a person's creative inspiration. To ask people to be inspired to make more is a bad thing because you're forcing a process that can't be forced.

Maybe Bioware does have more to this story's end that will be released in coming days as DLC, and they're just holding out cause they know everyone (especially the people that complained so bitterly about how much they hate Bioware and the ending) will rush out to snap it up. And then people will complain about the business model despite simultaneously supporting it. But as it stands for now, this is the ending you get. If you don't like the book, bring the book back and find an author that knows how to end a story.

Actually I have written.
I'll admit I'm no published author, I've never been paid for it, and it's a hobby more than anything.

My stories were published entirely freely on various websites, and ya know what....I got people requesting I write more of X or Y, I got people making suggestions for what should happen in future chapters if I chose to write them.

I didn't view any of those reactions, even the people who bashed my writing, as "entitled immature" people.

Sometimes I took their suggestions to heart and tried to give them what they wanted.
Sometimes I ignored the suggestions and did other things.

I never once begrudged anyone for suggesting or wanting certain things in the story.

Which turned out better though, writing for others or writing for yourself? Occasionally you'll get people who know what they're talking about and give you genuinely good advice beyond just "I liked this character, why can't you have more of them?" And occasionally you'll come up with some real turds on your own. But overall, the work that comes from your own critical eye will be far beyond what other people think should happen, because they're your characters, and you understand them better than anyone else. People get emotionally attached and invested in your characters but that doesn't give them the right to dictate to you what happens with your characters. Because, again, they're your characters.

That's the tricky thing about video games. There's still this wall because we get to feel like we're crafting our own story, especially with companies like Bioware, but ultimately we're still just playing a story that someone else already wrote. And we're asking them to do something different with their characters and their universe then what they already did, which is ultimately gonna feel like a cop-out or something forced.

 

[irishda]

Most fans have admitted that they would pay for it if they have to. Personally I'd prefer it be free. The less damage they can cause their brand at this point the better.

Then what damage is done to the brand if everyone's going to continue to support it, albeit begrudgingly?

The implication that if they actually need to pay for it they will no longer do business with Bioware after completing the true ME trilogy experience. I know its likely a hollow threat by most, but it is very likely I will avoid Bioware future titles if they pull that shit. I'm already not buying the "From Ashes" DLC so we'll see how much they can destroy my perception of them.

If you give them an implication, then there's no guarantee it won't be repeated. Maybe they won't try it again out of fear of losing business, maybe they will just to see if everyone will still pay for it. The key here is people will no longer do business AFTER they do more business (completing the franchise). But what if the ME experience was sacrificed for the sake of showing Bioware that its customers weren't gonna tolerate those sort of business practices? What if people could let go of the story and just let it die without finding out what happens? What would speak louder, forum posts or sales numbers?

 

[Merrick_HLC]

---
To ask the author to write another chapter isn't 'entitlement' or 'immaturity'

Then you're not a writer. When an author publishes a work, we don't ask them to add another chapter. We either accept it as a good story or hate it as a bad story. To ask someone to write more for their own story is a disservice because they wouldn't have stopped if they didn't have more to add. This is the result of a person's creative inspiration. To ask people to be inspired to make more is a bad thing because you're forcing a process that can't be forced.

Maybe Bioware does have more to this story's end that will be released in coming days as DLC, and they're just holding out cause they know everyone (especially the people that complained so bitterly about how much they hate Bioware and the ending) will rush out to snap it up. And then people will complain about the business model despite simultaneously supporting it. But as it stands for now, this is the ending you get. If you don't like the book, bring the book back and find an author that knows how to end a story.

Actually I have written.
I'll admit I'm no published author, I've never been paid for it, and it's a hobby more than anything.

My stories were published entirely freely on various websites, and ya know what....I got people requesting I write more of X or Y, I got people making suggestions for what should happen in future chapters if I chose to write them.

I didn't view any of those reactions, even the people who bashed my writing, as "entitled immature" people.

Sometimes I took their suggestions to heart and tried to give them what they wanted.
Sometimes I ignored the suggestions and did other things.

I never once begrudged anyone for suggesting or wanting certain things in the story.

Which turned out better though, writing for others or writing for yourself? Occasionally you'll get people who know what they're talking about and give you genuinely good advice beyond just "I liked this character, why can't you have more of them?" And occasionally you'll come up with some real turds on your own. But overall, the work that comes from your own critical eye will be far beyond what other people think should happen, because they're your characters, and you understand them better than anyone else. People get emotionally attached and invested in your characters but that doesn't give them the right to dictate to you what happens with your characters. Because, again, they're your characters.

That's the tricky thing about video games. There's still this wall because we get to feel like we're crafting our own story, especially with companies like Bioware, but ultimately we're still just playing a story that someone else already wrote. And we're asking them to do something different with their characters and their universe then what they already did, which is ultimately gonna feel like a cop-out or something forced.

Honestly the middle ground was generally best IMO.
Sometimes adapting to add more of a character or idea the fans added twisted things around in positive ways.
When I didn't think it would work, I just didn't do it.

Also, the problem most people have with the ending in ME3 is that it does feel like a forced cop-out to them.

This is not some situation where the orig writer had a definitve vision that the fans are just disappointed with the outcome of.

This is the result of a lot of different writers having input, changing things, rearranging them.
Let me use a previous ME example.

Tali was obviously not intended by the original writers of ME to be a romance-able character.
Fans wanted it.

She was made romanceable in the 2nd game.

I admit I wasn't checking the forums at the time but I'm doubting there was a huge negative reaction to Bioware changing the story to fit what the fans wanted.

 

[Steven Kilpatrick]

My confusion is the notion that "most fans" have reached some sort of consensus on this.

The game has been in our hands for just over a week. That's hardly enough time for the 1 million plus owners to have beaten it. Furthermore, only about 1,400 people have donated money to the charity.

Great, good for charity, but 1,400 donations hardly equals consensus.

Beyond that, the FREE TO JOIN facebook group has about 26,500 members right now.

If there are 1,000,000 copies of the game already in the hands of gamers, and there are 26,500 people who are unhappy, then you're dealing with somewhere between 2 and 3% of all people who own the game. Let me reiterate: That's 2-3% of people who are even willing to click a "like" button--one of the easiest forms of activism on the planet.

There's a good chance that, even if the numbers swell as more people finish the game, 70-90% of people are enjoying the ending.

If only 2.5% of people are mobilizing against something, there's a good chance they're in the vast minority. If that's the case, and I'm almost certain it is, then I can't imagine the gall it takes to demand something is changed that would cripple authorial credibility.

In terms of people complaining about choices made, I think (as I've said elsewhere) it has a lot to do with people assuming that the ending is only what takes place after the player makes his/her final input and before you reappear on the ship.

That's not true.

The ending of Mass Effect 3 starts just prior to the "point of no return" assault, it includes the chance to interact with various members of the story, it includes several moments along the way that are colored by choices made in the first two games.

I'm not sympathetic to this movement at all. It's not just because I'm a fan of the current ending. It's also that I'm not a fan of this notion of crowd sourced creativity. It's up there with voting "1 out of 10" at Metacritic to make a point.

You didn't like it. It was too bleak. So is life. So is the Christ story that Shepard is based on. So is nearly every catalytic change. If reapers dropping onto earth and killing everyone didn't set the tone for you, what were you doing for hours and hours of gameplay that didn't make you think: "this won't all end up perfectly?"

I wonder how many people would have petitioned Spielberg because Saving Private Ryan had an ending that was too bleak. I wonder how silly they'd have seemed.