Milo - Lionhead's new project

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cobra_ky

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this is pretty obviously crap to anyone with any real background in AI. even giving them the benefit of the doubt and assuming it's not scripted, it's so painfully obvious that they're resorting to cheap mind tricks instead of attempting anything remotely close to real AI.

first of all, you'll notice that milo's first couple sentences are just repeating back what the user said. Molyneux claims milo can recognize emotion in peoples' voices. Sure he can, just as long as they're saying things like "I FEEL A BIT NERVOUS." wow, she said she was nervous and he figured out she was nervous somehow! voice recognition software isn't that innovative. never mind that she clearly ISN'T really nervous, because MILO certainly doesn't.

Milo's next reply is "Thousands of people..." kudos on making it sound like a thoughtful response, but it's just repeating what the user just said. <a href=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA>Joseph Weizenbaum figured that trick out in 1964. not much innovative there either.

the rest of Milo's tricks work pretty much the same way. when the program picks up on "homework", instead of coming up with a vacuous statement, it instead has milo look quiet and sheepish. it's a fairly safe bet that regardless of context, any kid would react the same way when someone brought up homework. also notice how milo completely ignores the part about being beaten in football before. is there any kind of memory at work here? any learning algorithm?

apparently milo's "homework" is drawing fish in a journal. that seems fairly vague, but ok. apparently he also has no idea what fish look like despite standing next to a pond full of them for god knows how long. as soon as it recognizes neat little eye toy goggles trick, the game automatically positions the camera over the pond and initiates the fish-grabbing minigame, which would be a lot more impressive if johnny chung lee hadn't proven the concept with a wiimote two years ago. the water effects on the reflection do look pretty good though. actually the animation as a whole is pretty good, so good job on that i guess.

"they're only fish, but they're trickier than you think." isn't this an oddly vague thing to say about drawing? it sounds naturally enough if you were trying to catch or cook one. what's so tricky about drawing a fish? especially if, like milo, you're supposedly good at drawing? why wouldn't you say "i have trouble drawing fish, for some reason." why won't milo refer to the object and the action in the same sentence? because it's easier to pick out one word, and have a generic statement in response to that.

claire then graciously volunteers to do milo's homework for him and draws a fish. what if she had drawn a bird? or a house? or (let's be realistic here) a cock? chances are milo would react no differently. it's hard to hear over molyneux's self-aggrandizing voiceover, but it sounds like milo limits his response to the color of the drawing. it's nice that you got a program to recognize a piece of paper and any colors on it, but art is so subjective that it's practically impossible to get a computer to recognize anything beyond simple geometric shapes. (even getting a computer to recognize printed text, regardless of font, would be a huge breakthrough.)

why do you think "only a select few" will actually get to try milo at E3? it's because any in-depth attempt to really communicate with milo will expose the thousands and thousands of flaws in the supposed "AI". Basically natal is just a ripoff of the wii and eyetoy with some voice recognition thrown in, and molyneux slapped it on a half-assed AI. This is what apparently passes for ground-breaking innovation at microsoft.
 

cobra_ky

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Doug said:
balimuzz said:
It looks really different from anything that has come before it, but I feel like we just don't have the technology to do this yet. If we give it 10 years, I think this will be a little more feasible. How many phrases and words will it be able to recognize before we hit the inevitable point of: "I don't know what that means. Want to go fishing?" when you start cussing at it. Still, it looked pretty interesting, and I jumped out of my seat when the paper was instantly passed into the game. It's Peter Molyneux, so obviously he's going to tell us how revolutionary it is going to be, even if it ends up not fully working. However, no matter how it turns out, this is a big milestone in gaming, and for once, Peter really has brought a revolutionary new way to look at and interact with games.
True. I don't think AI technology has reached the point yet where it can intelligently interact with a human outside of a handful of pre-programmed activities. Maybe 10 years, as you say. AI today can be pretty smart, but extremely single minded, even if its a 'learning network'.
i just noticed this part. people have been claiming "AI is 10 years away" for over half a century at this point.
 

SecondhandSerenade

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Parallel Streaks said:
Great, now even computer generated characters will recognize my bad social skills.
I feel you. If my retreat from the social world starts to put me down I don't know what I'll do.
 

HyenaThePirate

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To Cobra_Ky:

Well thanks Mr. Joy-kill...

Honestly I LOVE people like you Cobra... you know, the internet geniuses who get their jollies by killing everyone else's wonder and amazement at something.
You're the kind of guy that goes to the movies with your friends and then talks through the whole thing about how "fake" a scene is or unrealistic and then sits at home on Saturday nights wondering why your phone isn't ringing off the hook from your all your "friends" wanting to go out with you.

But of course, the fact that you are the living embodiment of a wet-blanket that can sap the joy from a room faster than watching a man with hemorrhoids ride a seat-less bicycle completely escapes people like you, because you perform these mental gymnastics to convince yourself that YOU aren't the problem, that you are somehow some sort of super-genius that is just better than the rest of us ignorant gnats putting yourself up on a secure little pedestal to protect your hollow little ego because it's the only thing in life that validates your continued existence.

Tell you what, YOU go design anything RESEMBLING Milo, that can even do HALF of what you just claimed and then come back and give us all a tech demo.

Until then, just accept that it was cool, interesting, and has people intrigued about the future and possibilities of gaming technology.

Jesus, people like you annoy the piss out of me. It's as bad as all that "Sony is better and nothing Xbox does is even remotely fun or good" or vice versa nonsense. Grow up dude.
 

Fyvush

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HyenaThePirate said:
To Cobra_Ky:

Well thanks Mr. Joy-kill...

Honestly I LOVE people like you Cobra... you know, the internet geniuses who get their jollies by killing everyone else's wonder and amazement at something.
You're the kind of guy that goes to the movies with your friends and then talks through the whole thing about how "fake" a scene is or unrealistic and then sits at home on Saturday nights wondering why your phone isn't ringing off the hook from your all your "friends" wanting to go out with you.

But of course, the fact that you are the living embodiment of a wet-blanket that can sap the joy from a room faster than watching a man with hemorrhoids ride a seat-less bicycle completely escapes people like you, because you perform these mental gymnastics to convince yourself that YOU aren't the problem, that you are somehow some sort of super-genius that is just better than the rest of us ignorant gnats putting yourself up on a secure little pedestal to protect your hollow little ego because it's the only thing in life that validates your continued existence.

Tell you what, YOU go design anything RESEMBLING Milo, that can even do HALF of what you just claimed and then come back and give us all a tech demo.

Until then, just accept that it was cool, interesting, and has people intrigued about the future and possibilities of gaming technology.

Jesus, people like you annoy the piss out of me. It's as bad as all that "Sony is better and nothing Xbox does is even remotely fun or good" or vice versa nonsense. Grow up dude.
GJ telling this pointy-headed wet-kill-joy-blanket what the score is and where to stick it! I don't know why he thinks that he knows anything more than the rest of us, but I bet it has something to do with paying thousands of dollars and devoting years of his life to get a piece of paper that wasn't even made out of the skin of a dead animal. He don't realize the internet is no place for intelligent discussion, and people like him are never happy with maintaining painfully superficial friendships or eating up Molyneux's feculently pretentious words like blissfully ignorant gnats (which are coprophages, after all) the way the rest of us are. Those people really need to grow up. You're fine though; don't change a thing.
 

Jupsto

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Credge said:
Banok said:
there was a backstage demo. read up on teh internets, one here joystiq.com
Read it.

Reading it again.

I'll reiterate. We didn't see a tech demo. We saw a video. Please, I've gone over this with about 40 people now. There is a difference.

What Joystiq experienced was a tech demo. What we experienced was not.

Which is what I was commenting on.

The entire problem with this is the application. Great! I can have a conversation with a kid. This is >5< years of development. There is no practical application to be had now, 5 years from now, or this gen.

Is this a piece of tech? A game? If it's a game, great! That's a seriously casual experience. If it's a piece of tech, that's fantastic! 5 years of development for limited responses (read the same Joystiq article) and a single scripted event.

Too much development time for what it is right now. Maybe in 10 years when the tech has advanced and becomes easy to manipulate. As it is now, it's too much work for too little reward to be anything significant.

Which is why I'm pretty :| about it.
I wasn't disagreeing that that what we saw was just a demo.

The 5 years quote I wouldn't take seriously, look at the wording: 5 years on emotional AI not 5 years on milo. I bet your ass that includes fable 2 AI and alot of stuff not directly related to natal or milo.

It will be a few years till its ready we'll just have to see if its worth it. I agree it won't be worth it just for milo, looks like a terrible game like something nintendo would make these days. more excited about the technology and its application to decent games.
 

cobra_ky

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HyenaThePirate said:
Honestly I LOVE people like you Cobra... you know, the internet geniuses who get their jollies by killing everyone else's wonder and amazement at something.
You're the kind of guy that goes to the movies with your friends and then talks through the whole thing about how "fake" a scene is or unrealistic and then sits at home on Saturday nights wondering why your phone isn't ringing off the hook from your all your "friends" wanting to go out with you.
HyenaThePirate said:
Tell you what, YOU go design anything RESEMBLING Milo, that can even do HALF of what you just claimed and then come back and give us all a tech demo.

Until then, just accept that it was cool, interesting, and has people intrigued about the future and possibilities of gaming technology.
if i had 8 years and molyneux's budget i could. i still probably wouldn't though, since as i said, natal is just a bunch of currently existing technology and aside from that, Milo is just good animation on top of 50 year old AI technology.

i admit it has people intrigued about the future of gaming technology. i just wish people were intrigued about the past of AI research. unfortunately molyneux seems more interested in exploiting the game industry's willful ignorance of related fields and making himself look innovative than actually advancing the art and science of game development.

in retrospect i suppose i was a little hard on milo. it's really a nice little tech demo. it just pisses me off when molyneux spouts utter bullshit like "science fiction writers never even dreamed of it." Not have they dreamed of it, actual scientists have already accomplished practically everything milo is capable of.

HyenaThePirate said:
Jesus, people like you annoy the piss out of me. It's as bad as all that "Sony is better and nothing Xbox does is even remotely fun or good" or vice versa nonsense. Grow up dude.
there's a difference between expressing a negative opinion and actually supporting that opinion with facts and well-reasoned argument.
 

sonicspin

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I was VERY impressed by this! Clearly a revolution in human, AI interface, and the true first step to the end of mankind!
 

cobra_ky

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Banok said:
Credge said:
Banok said:
there was a backstage demo. read up on teh internets, one here joystiq.com
Read it.

Reading it again.

I'll reiterate. We didn't see a tech demo. We saw a video. Please, I've gone over this with about 40 people now. There is a difference.

What Joystiq experienced was a tech demo. What we experienced was not.

Which is what I was commenting on.

The entire problem with this is the application. Great! I can have a conversation with a kid. This is >5< years of development. There is no practical application to be had now, 5 years from now, or this gen.

Is this a piece of tech? A game? If it's a game, great! That's a seriously casual experience. If it's a piece of tech, that's fantastic! 5 years of development for limited responses (read the same Joystiq article) and a single scripted event.

Too much development time for what it is right now. Maybe in 10 years when the tech has advanced and becomes easy to manipulate. As it is now, it's too much work for too little reward to be anything significant.

Which is why I'm pretty :| about it.
I wasn't disagreeing that that what we saw was just a demo.

The 5 years quote I wouldn't take seriously, look at the wording: 5 years on emotional AI not 5 years on milo. I bet your ass that includes fable 2 AI and alot of stuff not directly related to natal or milo.

It will be a few years till its ready we'll just have to see if its worth it. I agree it won't be worth it just for milo, looks like a terrible game like something nintendo would make these days. more excited about the technology and its application to decent games.

apparently he's actually been working on it <a href=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dimitri_Project>for 8 years

the sad thing is we don't really know what application the technology has since molyneux refused to present it honestly. i'm personally intrigued by the possibility of scanning images off a piece of paper, but all i know is it can recognize color.
 

ThrobbingEgo

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Here's what I wrote to a friend on facebook:

It's cool - but remember that the AI dude can't think or come up with new lines. He can only do what's scripted for him. He'd basically be an interactive flow chart - a really cool interactive flow chart - but if you'd do something his developers wouldn't expect, intend, or anticipate, he'd just stare blankly at you.

I mean, if you drew a penis instead of a fish, he'd probably just say "green is my favorite colour."

...

And proudly hang it on his fridge.
 

Ashbax

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ThrobbingEgo said:
Here's what I wrote to a friend on facebook:

It's cool - but remember that the AI dude can't think or come up with new lines. He can only do what's scripted for him. He'd basically be an interactive flow chart - a really cool interactive flow chart - but if you'd do something his developers wouldn't expect, intend, or anticipate, he'd just stare blankly at you.

I mean, if you drew a penis instead of a fish, he'd probably just say "green is my favorite colour."

...

And proudly hang it on his fridge.
Well, that might be the case, but if it is, Im gonna experiment with different sized and coloured dongs.
 

ThrobbingEgo

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steeltrain said:
If it's not scripted then huzzah. I'm sure it may have a practical use at some point in the next 200 years.

Milo is a fucking creep though.
Of course it's scripted. What, do you think the software can do it's own voice acting?

(Whoops, I didn't realize you meant "not scripted" as in "not a fake video." Not "the computer's looking for keywords, then reads off a scripted algorithm accordingly.")
 

Yoshimota

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This is the coolest thing I've ever seen, This is the most innovative thing in gaming I've seen.

Can't wait until it's actually released!
 

Doug

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Leorex said:
Doug said:
balimuzz said:
It looks really different from anything that has come before it, but I feel like we just don't have the technology to do this yet. If we give it 10 years, I think this will be a little more feasible. How many phrases and words will it be able to recognize before we hit the inevitable point of: "I don't know what that means. Want to go fishing?" when you start cussing at it. Still, it looked pretty interesting, and I jumped out of my seat when the paper was instantly passed into the game. It's Peter Molyneux, so obviously he's going to tell us how revolutionary it is going to be, even if it ends up not fully working. However, no matter how it turns out, this is a big milestone in gaming, and for once, Peter really has brought a revolutionary new way to look at and interact with games.
True. I don't think AI technology has reached the point yet where it can intelligently interact with a human outside of a handful of pre-programmed activities. Maybe 10 years, as you say. AI today can be pretty smart, but extremely single minded, even if its a 'learning network'.
right now ai is at the level of crickets or spiders.
Ever looked at the complexity of a spider web? As I said, pretty smart but single minded. Like, they can learn to do one or two things, and do them well, but not alot else.
 

BGH122

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I don't doubt this'll end up a Molytard disaster but it does look cool. If I understand it correctly Milo is supposed to be similar to Jabberwocky, but I can't see how that'd work what with the voice inflections. He also seems to have that Jabberwockyish fault of just repeating what's said to him with an inflection.

Player: It's my sister's birthday
Milo: It's your sister's birthday?

I also hope he has interesting responses for when I threaten to beat him with a brick.
 

Geo Da Sponge

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plastic_window said:
Molyneux's done more games than just Fable, y'know. He also did the Black and White series and Populous. Not sure what promises he may or may not have made and subsuquently broken concerning these games, but I thought they were pretty good.
He actually worked on the original Theme Park as well, one of the first business sims.
 

HyenaThePirate

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cobra_ky said:
if i had 8 years and molyneux's budget i could. i still probably wouldn't though, since as i said, natal is just a bunch of currently existing technology and aside from that, Milo is just good animation on top of 50 year old AI technology.

i admit it has people intrigued about the future of gaming technology. i just wish people were intrigued about the past of AI research. unfortunately molyneux seems more interested in exploiting the game industry's willful ignorance of related fields and making himself look innovative than actually advancing the art and science of game development.

in retrospect i suppose i was a little hard on milo. it's really a nice little tech demo. it just pisses me off when molyneux spouts utter bullshit like "science fiction writers never even dreamed of it." Not have they dreamed of it, actual scientists have already accomplished practically everything milo is capable of.

there's a difference between expressing a negative opinion and actually supporting that opinion with facts and well-reasoned argument.
In lieu of that, I apologize for seemingly going off on you and you are right, not only are you entitled to your opinion, but it was well-reasoned. I think I had just seen more than I could take about people finding any reason they could to just downplay some of the things we saw at E3 this year. The boards are full of idiots who think God of War 3 looked like more of the same 'boring crap' or that Halo ODST is just another boring Halo clone. Granted not EVERYTHING we saw was awe-inspiring, I'll admit that Nintendo's vitality sensor sorta deflated my cloud a bit but I can see how it has some appeal somewhere... at least as a decent little heart monitor for out of shape gamers who are getting into shape using their wii.. in fact I made a joke with a friend of mine that Nintendo probably created that to head off lawsuits from out of shape people having heart attacks from using their system.

I'll also agree that Molyneux seems to be obsessed with consistently over promising and under-delivering but I don't think he is intentionally deceptive. I think he just gets super excited over his new technologies, pushing new ground, and he's proud of what he's created in a way that many of us get excitedly proud over the most mundane tasks. He's like a little kid that made a rainbow picture out of pasted macaroni and finger paints and is running around showing everyone in sight what 'he did' with pride. Cant blame a guy for loving his work.

Anyway, all we can do is wait and see how Milo develops but I think it's interesting in the way Seamen was interesting back on the dreamcast. I'd love to have something like Milo around for a few weeks (maybe not a 10 year old boy, can we make him a 20 year old woman?) but just to see if it can do what we saw, even if it's something as stupid as talking about homework.