Monster Monpiece Censored for Sexual Imagery of Girl Monsters

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Do4600

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So, somebody saw those drawings of Pokemon re-imagined as anime girls and decided to build a game where you have to stroke them to win? "Idea Factory" indeed. I wish I could somehow understand the sexuality of the Japanese, but they're such a closed people, I even watch edgy Japanese comedy from time to time and it's still barely even mentioned.
 

JoJo

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Windknight said:
JoJo said:
Windknight said:
ZippyDSMlee said:
Lieju said:
ZippyDSMlee said:
Ya...no its Mature material but nothing higher than that...the US is so messed up...
At least one of those girls was certainly underage, or rather has the body of a young girl.

I'm thinking it's the loli content that's the issue here.

If it's just sexual imagery, it's silly, because if you buy this game, you are buying it for that sort of stuff.
Which is stupid whats next banning content that disrespects gays or blacks?

Banning(even fou banning) things never works and works against society in general over time as more things need to be banned.

Unless you can find direct constant harm things do not need to be banned....


/pissed off
Loli-con stuff has a possible 'grooming' aspect to it. Its potentially a tool for a pedophile to use to normalize abuse - 'look, its OK sweety, the girls and boys in this game/cartoon/comic are doing it, its totally ok.'
The same could be said about regular live-action adult pornography, in-fact more so as rather than your 'potentially' claim it's known to be regularly used by predators to groom minors, would you be in favour of banning of regular adult pornography for hindering grooming opportunities too? (Not that sexual predators tend to be that fussed about following the law anyway...)
So... live action adult pornography features underage characters drawn in a cutesy way that children may see as being like the cartoons, comics or games they play every day? You really didn't think that argument through very well did you.
That doesn't really make a difference, both could be used for grooming in theory. Do you actually have any evidence lolicon is particularly used for that purpose and is particularly effective as you claim, or is this just speculation?
 

ZippyDSMlee

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Windknight said:
ZippyDSMlee said:
Lieju said:
ZippyDSMlee said:
Ya...no its Mature material but nothing higher than that...the US is so messed up...
At least one of those girls was certainly underage, or rather has the body of a young girl.

I'm thinking it's the loli content that's the issue here.

If it's just sexual imagery, it's silly, because if you buy this game, you are buying it for that sort of stuff.
Which is stupid whats next banning content that disrespects gays or blacks?

Banning(even fou banning) things never works and works against society in general over time as more things need to be banned.

Unless you can find direct constant harm things do not need to be banned....


/pissed off
Loli-con stuff has a possible 'grooming' aspect to it. Its potentially a tool for a pedophile to use to normalize abuse - 'look, its OK sweety, the girls and boys in this game/cartoon/comic are doing it, its totally ok.'

Guns, alcohol,drugs, proscriptions, vehicles, books, computers all can be misused so lets burn it all because it may be misused and take away all the choice from Judges to make things easier to police. We'd be so much safer without these evil things!!! THINK OF THE CHILDREN FOR RAPTOR JESUS SAKE!!!!
 

Starik20X6

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The ESRB gave Monster Monpiece a Mature rating with the censored material submitted. The European version received the PEGI 12 rating due to the minimal amount of violence. The difference comes down to different concerns in each part of the world.
And in Australia, the game was driven to the middle of the desert and nuked by orbital satellites.
 

WindKnight

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JoJo said:
Windknight said:
JoJo said:
Windknight said:
ZippyDSMlee said:
Lieju said:
ZippyDSMlee said:
Ya...no its Mature material but nothing higher than that...the US is so messed up...
At least one of those girls was certainly underage, or rather has the body of a young girl.

I'm thinking it's the loli content that's the issue here.

If it's just sexual imagery, it's silly, because if you buy this game, you are buying it for that sort of stuff.
Which is stupid whats next banning content that disrespects gays or blacks?

Banning(even fou banning) things never works and works against society in general over time as more things need to be banned.

Unless you can find direct constant harm things do not need to be banned....


/pissed off
Please, tell me, what aspects of adult porn WILL APPEAL TO A CHILD? Is it that its real? That its boring adults ding boring adult stuff?

Loli-con art by its very definition contains elements that have the potential to strongly appeal to children, and indeed is specifically a sexual fetish involving child characters. The art is cutesy, the characters involved ARE children (unless the text insist they are 18 honestly guv, they just look that way), and if we slip into fanworks may very well be characters aimed at and adored by children. Can you honestly not see why one has so much more potential danger than the other?


Loli-con stuff has a possible 'grooming' aspect to it. Its potentially a tool for a pedophile to use to normalize abuse - 'look, its OK sweety, the girls and boys in this game/cartoon/comic are doing it, its totally ok.'
The same could be said about regular live-action adult pornography, in-fact more so as rather than your 'potentially' claim it's known to be regularly used by predators to groom minors, would you be in favour of banning of regular adult pornography for hindering grooming opportunities too? (Not that sexual predators tend to be that fussed about following the law anyway...)
So... live action adult pornography features underage characters drawn in a cutesy way that children may see as being like the cartoons, comics or games they play every day? You really didn't think that argument through very well did you.
That doesn't really make a difference, both could be used for grooming in theory. Do you actually have any evidence lolicon is particularly used for that purpose and is particularly effective as you claim, or is this just speculation?
What about adult porn will Appeal to a child? the characters are adults, they are real, and their doing boring stuff (repairing fridges etc) that wont interest a chil.

Loli-con art is of children, or at least child characters, no matter what the disclaimers say. It is specifically about presenting children in a sexualised manner. Indeed if we slip into fanworks they may well be characters created for and adored by children. they will be cartoons, or comics, or games, just like they watch and read and play to enjoy.

One is something for adults that children will find dull and unappealing. one has elements the children will potentially find highly engaging. can you honestly not see why one has more potential danger than the other?
 

JoJo

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Windknight said:
Please, tell me, what aspects of adult porn WILL APPEAL TO A CHILD? Is it that its real? That its boring adults ding boring adult stuff?

Loli-con art by its very definition contains elements that have the potential to strongly appeal to children, and indeed is specifically a sexual fetish involving child characters. The art is cutesy, the characters involved ARE children (unless the text insist they are 18 honestly guv, they just look that way), and if we slip into fanworks may very well be characters aimed at and adored by children. Can you honestly not see why one has so much more potential danger than the other?
Heh, have you ever actually met a child? I've worked and volunteered with children quite a bit in the last few years and trust me, they are 1) very curious and 2) think anything to with sex, genitals, nudity etc is hilarious and interesting. To a lot of seven year olds seeing the word 'sex' written on a newspaper is the height of comedy, you really think seeing adult porn for the first time would just be 'boring adults ding boring adult stuff?'

Anyhow, my point is you haven't really demonstrated why lolicon is so apparently more effective for grooming than numerous other forms of pornography, other than unsourced appeals at their cuteness. If a predator wants to abuse a minor, they will find a way and I very much doubt they will give a rat's arse about any laws against lolicon, considering they're already breaking the law by definition. For me, what you've said is nowhere near enough to justify limiting freedom of expression, not until you have much clearer proof of harm. Otherwise next GTA could see itself under the banhammer, after all it could in theory be used to groom children into a life of car-thieving and murder right?
 

Something Amyss

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"However, Western society is not as lenient as that of Japan when sexual images are involved - especially images of humanoids that appear to be younger than a socially acceptable age."
Unless you stopped censoring your porn, Japan, I disagree.

Draconalis said:
Don't get me wrong... I'm not a fan of loli content... but it disturbs me how many games are being censored. This is the fourth I know about.
The only difference between games before and games now is that it wasn't news before. So are you disturbed because it's "new," or because it was just brought to your attention?

amaranth_dru said:
I'll second this because I've never understood how their culture works. They seem to be oddly prude and lewd at the same time from what I can tell, and very backwards regarding the treatment of women. Granted this is all from an American point of view take it as you will. I may not be your "typical American" though.
It's a fairly Western point of view, rather than merely American. Granted, as Americans we may be somewhat more prudish than some other cultures, but still.

I'm not sure I care if people fapping to underage girls (pretend or real) are talking down to me, though.

JoJo said:
Can't provide any peer-reviewed literature but I wouldn't be surprised if Japan has different sexual norms to Western countries due to the lack of Abrahamic religions whose typically sex-negative attitudes have permeated our culture for well over a thousand years. I think it wouldn't hurt to learn from some of their attitudes, such as openness to non-sexual nudity and embracing some of the weirder sides of sex, though their society isn't perfect either, they can be very prudish and traditional in other ways and have problems with the way women are treated, see the groping in trains situation.
Most of their changes towards sex laws came to be during the post-WW2 period and were influenced by 'Murricans of the Christian persuasion, so I wouldn't say that was the case. You may also notice that Japan has a lot of hybridised Christianity--actual Christians are a small minority, but Christianity isn't truly that rare in Japan. It used to puzzle me why the culture seemed so obsessed with Christian iconography until I read about that.

Japan was far more sex-negative before the US came along with its Abrahamic culture. And it was also 'Murrica that prompted things like age of consent, which is still relatively new in Japan in a formal sense. And informally, was fairly loose.

Call me an arrogant American if you want, but coming from an atheist who doesn't give a damn about Abrahamic morality, I don't think "don't fuck children" is a bad concept. I'd also note that Western treatment of women has evolved despite the Abrahamic faiths, not because of it. I mean, have you actually read the works that comprise the Judeo/Christian/Islamic faiths? Man, they're bad to women.

ZippyDSMlee said:
Which is stupid whats next banning content that disrespects gays or blacks?
Slippery slope only works if there's a reason to believe there's progression. Since this is nothing new in censorship,yet we've still managed to avoid disappearing down that slope, it's inane.

Banning(even fou banning) things never works and works against society in general over time as more things need to be banned.
How fortunate nothing's being banned. They're doing this because of what the consumer will tolerate. And honestly,I'm kind of glad sexualised underage girls are one of those lines. Even if it means passive-aggressive responses from Japan.

I'm not sure how you compare the voluntary changing of ideas because of free market concepts to the ideology of a brutal regime who actually sanctified those in laws and harsh punishments.

Never diminish ones tastes and rights to something so minor its okay to restrict or destroy because you and what you like to do will be next.
Ignoring the slippery slope (since I already touched upon it), nobody is diminishing anyone's rights. Well, I take that back. Critics of this move are attempting to diminish the rights of the companies involved to both self-determination and commerce. Nobody is entitled to sexualised kids. People are entitled to run their business as they see fit within laws, and to choose whether or not to publish something in a region in such a way as to not be profitable.

otakon17 said:
I don't get it, it's not gonna bother anyone that is going to buy it for crying out loud who are buying it for the eye-candy.
And they don't think enough people would buy it in large enough numbers to jusify keeping it as-is. What's the problem?
 

ZippyDSMlee

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Zachary Amaranth said:
"However, Western society is not as lenient as that of Japan when sexual images are involved - especially images of humanoids that appear to be younger than a socially acceptable age."
Unless you stopped censoring your porn, Japan, I disagree.

Draconalis said:
Don't get me wrong... I'm not a fan of loli content... but it disturbs me how many games are being censored. This is the fourth I know about.
The only difference between games before and games now is that it wasn't news before. So are you disturbed because it's "new," or because it was just brought to your attention?

amaranth_dru said:
I'll second this because I've never understood how their culture works. They seem to be oddly prude and lewd at the same time from what I can tell, and very backwards regarding the treatment of women. Granted this is all from an American point of view take it as you will. I may not be your "typical American" though.
It's a fairly Western point of view, rather than merely American. Granted, as Americans we may be somewhat more prudish than some other cultures, but still.

I'm not sure I care if people fapping to underage girls (pretend or real) are talking down to me, though.

JoJo said:
Can't provide any peer-reviewed literature but I wouldn't be surprised if Japan has different sexual norms to Western countries due to the lack of Abrahamic religions whose typically sex-negative attitudes have permeated our culture for well over a thousand years. I think it wouldn't hurt to learn from some of their attitudes, such as openness to non-sexual nudity and embracing some of the weirder sides of sex, though their society isn't perfect either, they can be very prudish and traditional in other ways and have problems with the way women are treated, see the groping in trains situation.
Most of their changes towards sex laws came to be during the post-WW2 period and were influenced by 'Murricans of the Christian persuasion, so I wouldn't say that was the case. You may also notice that Japan has a lot of hybridised Christianity--actual Christians are a small minority, but Christianity isn't truly that rare in Japan. It used to puzzle me why the culture seemed so obsessed with Christian iconography until I read about that.

Japan was far more sex-negative before the US came along with its Abrahamic culture. And it was also 'Murrica that prompted things like age of consent, which is still relatively new in Japan in a formal sense. And informally, was fairly loose.

Call me an arrogant American if you want, but coming from an atheist who doesn't give a damn about Abrahamic morality, I don't think "don't fuck children" is a bad concept. I'd also note that Western treatment of women has evolved despite the Abrahamic faiths, not because of it. I mean, have you actually read the works that comprise the Judeo/Christian/Islamic faiths? Man, they're bad to women.

ZippyDSMlee said:
Which is stupid whats next banning content that disrespects gays or blacks?
Slippery slope only works if there's a reason to believe there's progression. Since this is nothing new in censorship,yet we've still managed to avoid disappearing down that slope, it's inane.

Banning(even fou banning) things never works and works against society in general over time as more things need to be banned.
How fortunate nothing's being banned. They're doing this because of what the consumer will tolerate. And honestly,I'm kind of glad sexualised underage girls are one of those lines. Even if it means passive-aggressive responses from Japan.

I'm not sure how you compare the voluntary changing of ideas because of free market concepts to the ideology of a brutal regime who actually sanctified those in laws and harsh punishments.

Never diminish ones tastes and rights to something so minor its okay to restrict or destroy because you and what you like to do will be next.
Ignoring the slippery slope (since I already touched upon it), nobody is diminishing anyone's rights. Well, I take that back. Critics of this move are attempting to diminish the rights of the companies involved to both self-determination and commerce. Nobody is entitled to sexualised kids. People are entitled to run their business as they see fit within laws, and to choose whether or not to publish something in a region in such a way as to not be profitable.

otakon17 said:
I don't get it, it's not gonna bother anyone that is going to buy it for crying out loud who are buying it for the eye-candy.
And they don't think enough people would buy it in large enough numbers to jusify keeping it as-is. What's the problem?
Yes because censorship via economics is not censorship...

The more we progress to do nothing the more we slide down a slippery path.Humans are quick to forget and quicker to condemn others and quicker still to think they can do nothing..
 

CloudAtlas

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Overall I find all this defending of this sexualization of underaged girls a bit disturbing, but I can't say that I'm surprised.
 

ZippyDSMlee

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CloudAtlas said:
Overall I find all this defending of this sexualization of underaged girls a bit disturbing, but I can't say that I'm surprised.
Yes because fake children need to be protected from fake molesters in a fake world.....
 
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omega 616 said:
Barbas said:
..."However, Western society is not as lenient as that of Japan when sexual images are involved - especially images of humanoids that appear to be younger than a socially acceptable age."
If there is any solid, peer-reviewed literature that explains why things like this are seen as acceptable in Japan, please do not hesitate to recommend it. Japan is obscured from my eyes and requires further understanding.
I think the legal age in Japan is like 4 years younger than America, plus (as I found out a couple of weeks ago) a trend that is dying out in Japan is women of about 30+ are considered past there sexual prime, it's all about that mid teen to early twenties.

While I am not a fan of censorship, I approve of this. Not just in a white knight way but I always feel games and such think that unless there is "something for the dads" guys wont be interested in it. Like all guys are "Is it a sport? Ok, does it go fast? Ok, but are there boobs? Not even boobs? Then I don't give a shit!"
I think you've kinda missed a large part of the appeal of these type of games(admittedly maybe I have)). As far as I see this would be you bought an erotic novel with all the dirty words cut out? I'd imagine not. This kinda thing isn't really for me but I'd imagine being that it is a core mechanic it is part of what the target demographics want.
 

omega 616

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ZippyDSMlee said:
CloudAtlas said:
Overall I find all this defending of this sexualization of underaged girls a bit disturbing, but I can't say that I'm surprised.
Yes because fake children need to be protected from fake molesters in a fake world.....
Who said anything about fake children?

What about just not wanting to look at images of young looking girls designed in a sexy way?

Glademaster said:
There is a difference between the odd game having sexualized characters, like what you are suggesting. What we get from Japan is like walking into a book store or a block buster (even though they are defunct) and every product being an almost porno.
 

ZippyDSMlee

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omega 616 said:
ZippyDSMlee said:
CloudAtlas said:
Overall I find all this defending of this sexualization of underaged girls a bit disturbing, but I can't say that I'm surprised.
Yes because fake children need to be protected from fake molesters in a fake world.....
Who said anything about fake children?

What about just not wanting to look at images of young looking girls designed in a sexy way?

Glademaster said:
There is a difference between the odd game having sexualized characters, like what you are suggesting. What we get from Japan is like walking into a book store or a block buster (even though they are defunct) and every product being an almost porno.
So you are protecting adults against "immorality"... which is even worse.....

If you do not like it do not buy it do not watch it turn the page, The content is rated Mature that's all that should be necessary.
 

Alterego-X

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amaranth_dru said:
They seem to be oddly prude and lewd at the same time from what I can tell, and very backwards regarding the treatment of women. Granted this is all from an American point of view take it as you will. I may not be your "typical American" though.

Not a study, but you might want to start researching Japanese mentality with their concept of Honne and tatemae [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae]. Both of these words mean "identity", the former referring to one's personal feelings, the other to a publically presented persona. While from an individualistic western perspective, these would be called one's "true self" vs. a "facade", and from an asian collectivist perspective, they would be identified "animalistic desires" vs. "civilized moderation", Japanese culture balances the two as equally respectable in their own spheres.

In terms of sexuality, it means elaborate expectations of properness and chasitiy demonstrated in the public, while glamorizing hedonism and individualism privately, such as in entertainment.

For social justice issues, such as treatment of women, I think the main issue is that they don't really have vocal activists in either direction, probably related to the above. There are no feminist, or gay rights movements loudly getting offended about, say, a fictional character's comment, they keep their heads down. At the same time, the loudest misogynists or homophobes also keep their head down, so you also get some particularly progressive stuff.
 
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omega 616 said:
ZippyDSMlee said:
CloudAtlas said:
Overall I find all this defending of this sexualization of underaged girls a bit disturbing, but I can't say that I'm surprised.
Yes because fake children need to be protected from fake molesters in a fake world.....
Who said anything about fake children?

What about just not wanting to look at images of young looking girls designed in a sexy way?

Glademaster said:
There is a difference between the odd game having sexualized characters, like what you are suggesting. What we get from Japan is like walking into a book store or a block buster (even though they are defunct) and every product being an almost porno.
Well yeah that's what ecchi is and this seems pretty ecchi to me.
 

gyrobot_v1legacy

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Draconalis said:
That actually did catch my attention, but I also wonder how many of their niche fan-base they are losing with the censorship.

I remembered not buying one of the Yakuza games, because the American version removes the feature were you could woo a Gesha.
Not missing out on much, if GTAV let us get a half full hot coffee style scene. Then Yakuza give the equivilant of a kiss when it comes to the hostesses. There is no sex involved when it comes to Yakuza games. Otherwise we would have a softcore scene of Kiryu getting straddling by a bikini clad hostess with convenient censorship.

Yes, Japan despite it's eroge hasn't incorporated actual sex scenes into it's consumer grade games.

Also, my opinion on this: I blame the perpetual doujin machine. Hentai artists enabling upcoming hentai artists.
 

omega 616

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ZippyDSMlee said:
Not protecting anybody from anything, how about just not sexualizing kids? You want to look at that then it is out there, I just don't think it should be put into media or "works of art".

Glademaster said:
If everything is ... "ecchi", then nothing is and from what I see everything is "ecchi".
 

ZippyDSMlee

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omega 616 said:
ZippyDSMlee said:
Not protecting anybody from anything, how about just not sexualizing kids? You want to look at that then it is out there, I just don't think it should be put into media or "works of art".

Glademaster said:
If everything is ... "ecchi", then nothing is and from what I see everything is "ecchi".
How about lets protect people from violent content it will go over splendidly, no no it won't, at the end of the day same difference.
 
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omega 616 said:
ZippyDSMlee said:
Not protecting anybody from anything, how about just not sexualizing kids? You want to look at that then it is out there, I just don't think it should be put into media or "works of art".

Glademaster said:
If everything is ... "ecchi", then nothing is and from what I see everything is "ecchi".
Well you seem to be missing the point that I'm trying to make. This is a random game with sexualised characters. This is a game where sexualised characters are the selling point and the main draw. Thus putting it in the genre of ecchi as there is no penetration(assuming so). If there was it would be a hentai.

To go back to why I originally quoted you, this is like taking the sex out of a porno. Is there is too much stuff like this out there easily accessible in certain shop taking things too far? Quite possibly, but doing this removes the main point of the game as far as I can tell from looking into it. Kinda seems a bit pointless since they sell the game with rubbing and pinching the girls to level them up as a core mechanic. I mean the revealing outfits seem like a main point of the game and not an after thought for sales.
 

omega 616

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ZippyDSMlee said:
How about lets protect people from violent content it will go over splendidly, no no it won't, at the end of the day same difference.
Nothing alike, humans still have a blood lust, it;s why we are always having wars, fights, sports revolving around boxing and why we get a kick out of painful fail vids.

Humans don't have a lust to see sexualized children. Unfortunately, child porn is a thing, why do we need to start putting into a form to consumed as entertainment?

No, I am not saying playing these games is like a gateway into watching child porn.

Is there something wrong with making them look 18? 20? 30? Why do they have to look like they have just become a teenager?