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Aiddon_v1legacy

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Yoshi178 said:
Wii came out more than a decade ago. i still give a shit about it, the Wii is home to one of my favourite games of all time, Xenoblade Chronicles. most people just look at the console and only remember it for getting alot of shovelware like carnival games. not alot of people bothered to wade through the shovelware and find the gems on the system. i prefer sunshine personally. but people are also always saying how much they loved Mario Galaxy whenever people talk about mario games today.

people do give a shit about the console. things like carnival games and all the shovelware is what it gets remembered most for.
That and motion controls are still around (y'know, the thing the Wii popularized) in spite of contrarians still pouting over them despite over ten years of being in the gaming industry. Seriously, the fact that gamers still haven't gotten over waggle shows we still have a long way to go in terms of emotional maturity.
 

Hawki

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Phoenixmgs said:
PS2 definitely had a much better library than GC or Xbox;
Bigger, certainly. Better? I think that's ultimately subjective.

Phoenixmgs said:
Looking PS2 sold so much lots of 3rd-party games were exclusive just because it wasn't worth putting the games on other systems. Then, the Xbox did get more 3rd-party support than GC overall and it was Microsoft's 1st console. I don't really feel like going back and analyzing whether the GC or Xbox had a better library as arguments could probably be made for both sides. However, that GC controller had that real shitty 2nd analog stick so normal 3D games played worse on it, plus it was also missing a shoulder button.
I actually prefer the Gamecube controller to Sony's. The latter has more buttons, including shoulder buttons, but the Gamecube controller is much more comfortable to use. It likewise also helps that the Gamecube had four controller ports versus Sony's two, though you can argue this is offset by the PS2 having online support. As for the Xbox, it benefitted from being the most powerful console, but when I think of great exclusives for the Xbox, I think of Halo and...um...

Okay, I'm not saying the Xbox didn't have exclusives, but they seem to be few and far between, at least in regards to those that have had staying power. Fable maybe. Come to think of it, what's changed?

-Xbox: Great hardware, lack of exclusives.
-Nintendo: Great software, lacklustre hardware
-PlayStation: Jack of all trades
 

Chewster

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Aiddon said:
That and motion controls are still around (y'know, the thing the Wii popularized) in spite of contrarians still pouting over them despite over ten years of being in the gaming industry. Seriously, the fact that gamers still haven't gotten over waggle shows we still have a long way to go in terms of emotional maturity.
Right, except these days, the only games that really use motion controls are VR, where it makes sense. Many PSVR and Occulus games use it but that doesn't mean the whole PS4 or desktop gaming experience is geared completely around using motion controls. You can get by skipping all games which require them and not miss out that much. Which cannot really be said about the Wii, now can it? Bit of a difference there, innit?

And I am saying this as someone who liked the Wii, despite it's issues.
 

Hawki

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Aiddon said:
That and motion controls are still around (y'know, the thing the Wii popularized) in spite of contrarians still pouting over them despite over ten years of being in the gaming industry. Seriously, the fact that gamers still haven't gotten over waggle shows we still have a long way to go in terms of emotional maturity.
Yep. That's it. I dislike motion controls because of a lack of maturity. Not because motion controls are harder to use than a standard controller and are often based around gimmicks rather than core gameplay.
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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Hawki said:
Phoenixmgs said:
PS2 definitely had a much better library than GC or Xbox;
Bigger, certainly. Better? I think that's ultimately subjective.

Phoenixmgs said:
Looking PS2 sold so much lots of 3rd-party games were exclusive just because it wasn't worth putting the games on other systems. Then, the Xbox did get more 3rd-party support than GC overall and it was Microsoft's 1st console. I don't really feel like going back and analyzing whether the GC or Xbox had a better library as arguments could probably be made for both sides. However, that GC controller had that real shitty 2nd analog stick so normal 3D games played worse on it, plus it was also missing a shoulder button.
I actually prefer the Gamecube controller to Sony's. The latter has more buttons, including shoulder buttons, but the Gamecube controller is much more comfortable to use. It likewise also helps that the Gamecube had four controller ports versus Sony's two, though you can argue this is offset by the PS2 having online support. As for the Xbox, it benefitted from being the most powerful console, but when I think of great exclusives for the Xbox, I think of Halo and...um...

Okay, I'm not saying the Xbox didn't have exclusives, but they seem to be few and far between, at least in regards to those that have had staying power. Fable maybe. Come to think of it, what's changed?

-Xbox: Great hardware, lack of exclusives.
-Nintendo: Great software, lacklustre hardware
-PlayStation: Jack of all trades
There's Wikipedia lists of exclusive games on every system and the PS2 list is just ridiculous, spanning 2 pages. And there's quite a few games not on it because they eventually got re-releases on later gen platforms like Okami for example. And there's just so many 3rd party games that PS2 and Xbox got but never got put on GC like Metal Gear Solid 2/3 or Mercenaries, still the best open world game ever made IMO, or the GTAs when they were actually new and fresh. GC's library was definitely better than the Wii and WiiU but, come on, PS2 owned that gen in every regard besides tech specs.

I'm not a fan of even the proper left analog stick on the GC controller because I hated the octagon groves it had, it sorta felt like a glorified d-pad because of that. And with lacking a shoulder button really does cause issues, the 1st game I actually think of is good old SSX (the 1st PS2 game I played in fact), how did that control properly on the GC?
 

Hawki

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Phoenixmgs said:
There's Wikipedia lists of exclusive games on every system and the PS2 list is just ridiculous, spanning 2 pages. And there's quite a few games not on it because they eventually got re-releases on later gen platforms like Okami for example. And there's just so many 3rd party games that PS2 and Xbox got but never got put on GC like Metal Gear Solid 2/3 or Mercenaries, still the best open world game ever made IMO, or the GTAs when they were actually new and fresh. GC's library was definitely better than the Wii and WiiU but, come on, PS2 owned that gen in every regard besides tech specs.
Again, I'm not disputing that the PS2 has the largest library of that console generation, and I'm not disputing that the PS2 effectively 'won' its console generation, in as much that it had the highest number of sales. But the quality of exclusives can differ from person to person, and it doesn't help that the PS2 had weaker specs, or that the Gamecube had the advantage of two extra ports. At least in the scope of personal experience, the average Gamecube exclusive was better than the average PS2 exclusive.
 

Yoshi178

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Phoenixmgs said:
Yoshi178 said:
the Wii is home to one of my favourite games of all time, Xenoblade Chronicles
Have you even played the other games in the series?
i have played Xenoblade Chronicles X yes. and no, i don't count Xenogears & Xenosaga and such that were released on PS2 as the same series. Xenoblade Chronicles was called "Monado: Beginning of the World" in the first place FFS. just because Tetsuya Takahashi and Monolith soft worked on them all does not make them same the franchise.
 

Chimpzy_v1legacy

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Hawki said:
-Xbox: Great hardware, lack of exclusives.
-Nintendo: Great software, lacklustre hardware
-PlayStation: Jack of all trades
Just to be sure, is this comment about the Big 3 in general, or about their 6th gen consoles specifically?

Because as far as I recall, the Gamecube is more powerful than the PS2 (but less than the OG Xbox). The (pack-in) controller is generally well-regarded, and although it wasn't as Nintendium indestructible as the Game Boy, it had admirably sturdy build quality. I might be missing something, but I can't think of any area where the Gamecube was lacking compared to its competitors, save for online functionality and perhaps aesthetics.
 

Hawki

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Chimpzy said:
Just to be sure, is this comment about the Big 3 in general, or about their 6th gen consoles specifically?
More "in general," primarily pertaining to the current console generation. I'd say the Xbox 360 had a pretty decent roster, and as you point out, the PS2 was the weakest of its console generation.
 

Chimpzy_v1legacy

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Yoshi178 said:
i have played Xenoblade Chronicles X yes. and no, i don't count Xenogears & Xenosaga and such that were released on PS2 as the same series. Xenoblade Chronicles was called "Monado: Beginning of the World" in the first place FFS. just because Tetsuya Takahashi and Monolith soft worked on them all does not make them same the franchise.
I suppose it depends on how you look at it. In a meta sense, they are part of the same series, connected by Takahashi/Monolith Soft and common arc themes of philosophy and religion (and big robots/mecha). Then again, these connections are much looser than, say, Final Fantasy, so an argument can be made against it.

Fun fact: Xenogears was originally a proposed storyline for FFVII.
 

Aiddon_v1legacy

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Hawki said:
Yep. That's it. I dislike motion controls because of a lack of maturity. Not because motion controls are harder to use than a standard controller and are often based around gimmicks rather than core gameplay.
Except games have been proving that argument wrong for over ten years now. Metroid Prime 3, Skyward Sword, No More Heroes, Resident Evil 4, Pandora's Tower, Zack and Wiki, they all proved how well motion controls could work to the point where they became standard in the 3DS, Wii U, and Switch. They're never going away and people still choosing to fume over them is indeed a sign of immaturity at best and an unhealthy obsession at worst. It probably wouldn't be so bad if said arguments were based on people's actual experiences instead of regurgitating old, debunked arguments said by a handful of critics. But again I suppose beating the ground where the horse used to be is just the nature of gamers.
 

Hawki

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Aiddon said:
Except games have been proving that argument wrong for over ten years now. Metroid Prime 3, Skyward Sword, No More Heroes, Resident Evil 4, Pandora's Tower, Zack and Wiki, they all proved how well motion controls could work to the point where they became standard in the 3DS, Wii U, and Switch. They're never going away and people still choosing to fume over them is indeed a sign of immaturity at best and an unhealthy obsession at worst. It probably wouldn't be so bad if said arguments were based on people's actual experiences instead of regurgitating old, debunked arguments said by a handful of critics. But again I suppose beating the ground where the horse used to be is just the nature of gamers.
Except it IS based on my experiences, that's the entire point.

Of the games you've listed, I've played Skyward Sword and Resident Evil 4. The latter is a game I love, but not one I ever found myself hankering for motion controls, since accuracy was never an issue. The former I've played a bit of, not enough to really make a judgement, but enough to get a sense of how awkward it feels to hold the controls like that.

Here's two more games I have played with motion controls - Sonic and the Secret Rings, and Resident Evil: The Umbrella Chronicles. The former is literally unplayable, and there's nothing in the game that demands motion controls as opposed to a standard control scheme, bar from the latter likely making things too easy. The latter isn't as bad, but still finnicky as hell to control. I wouldn't mind so much if a standard controller was at least an option, akin to other rail shooters like Time Crisis or House of the Dead (which allowed controller usage or gun peripherals) but no, it only allows motion controls. Heck, the GunCon of the PS1 was more accurate than this. And that's not even including the Wii menu that demands that I use motion controls to navigate rather than a standard controller. This isn't even touching Nintendo's insistence on using the stylus for certain DS/3DS games (which is a hindrance more often than a help), or the horror stories I've heard from Star Fox Zero for instance. And that's not even touching on gizmos like the Kinect.

So tell me, how is it immature to dislike something that, without fail, has given me negative experiences, and is inferior to established control schemes?
 

CritialGaming

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Chimpzy said:
Yoshi178 said:
i have played Xenoblade Chronicles X yes. and no, i don't count Xenogears & Xenosaga and such that were released on PS2 as the same series. Xenoblade Chronicles was called "Monado: Beginning of the World" in the first place FFS. just because Tetsuya Takahashi and Monolith soft worked on them all does not make them same the franchise.
I suppose it depends on how you look at it. In a meta sense, they are part of the same series, connected by Takahashi/Monolith Soft and common arc themes of philosophy and religion (and big robots/mecha). Then again, these connections are much looser than, say, Final Fantasy, so an argument can be made against it.

Fun fact: Xenogears was originally a proposed storyline for FFVII.
Side note. Xenogears is one of the best RPG's ever made. I fucking love that game and would give up a testicle for a remake.
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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Hawki said:
But the quality of exclusives can differ from person to person... At least in the scope of personal experience, the average Gamecube exclusive was better than the average PS2 exclusive.
That could be very well the case. However, my point is that if I liked say 10% of PS2's exclusives and liked a quarter of GC's exclusives, there were more good PS2 exclusives because the quantity was just so much more. I understand that someone could of enjoyed GC's library more, but those chances are pretty low.

Yoshi178 said:
i have played Xenoblade Chronicles X yes. and no, i don't count Xenogears & Xenosaga and such that were released on PS2 as the same series. Xenoblade Chronicles was called "Monado: Beginning of the World" in the first place FFS. just because Tetsuya Takahashi and Monolith soft worked on them all does not make them same the franchise.
Did you play any of the prior "Xeno" games? Yes or No
 

Supernova1138

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Chimpzy said:
Hawki said:
-Xbox: Great hardware, lack of exclusives.
-Nintendo: Great software, lacklustre hardware
-PlayStation: Jack of all trades
Just to be sure, is this comment about the Big 3 in general, or about their 6th gen consoles specifically?

Because as far as I recall, the Gamecube is more powerful than the PS2 (but less than the OG Xbox). The (pack-in) controller is generally well-regarded, and although it wasn't as Nintendium indestructible as the Game Boy, it had admirably sturdy build quality. I might be missing something, but I can't think of any area where the Gamecube was lacking compared to its competitors, save for online functionality and perhaps aesthetics.
The Gamecube had a couple of things going against it, aside from Nintendo's terrible relationship with third parties outside of a small number of Japanese developers. It use a proprietary mini-disc format that stored only a little over a quarter of what a single layer DVD could, so some larger games would have to be multi-disc releases on Gamecube, it's similar to the Nintendo 64 cartridge capacity problem, but to a smaller extent and once again that drove some of the third parties away. The mini-disc format also meant the Gamecube couldn't be used as a DVD player, which was a big selling point for the PS2 and the Xbox to a lesser extent, so if you did want to get a Gamecube as your primary console you also had to shell out for a separate DVD player or buy one of the other two consoles to play DVDs.
 

Yoshi178

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Phoenixmgs said:
Yoshi178 said:
i have played Xenoblade Chronicles X yes. and no, i don't count Xenogears & Xenosaga and such that were released on PS2 as the same series. Xenoblade Chronicles was called "Monado: Beginning of the World" in the first place FFS. just because Tetsuya Takahashi and Monolith soft worked on them all does not make them same the franchise.
Did you play any of the prior "Xeno" games? Yes or No
Maybe. i don't know. can you repeat the question?
 

Hawki

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Phoenixmgs said:
That could be very well the case. However, my point is that if I liked say 10% of PS2's exclusives and liked a quarter of GC's exclusives, there were more good PS2 exclusives because the quantity was just so much more. I understand that someone could of enjoyed GC's library more, but those chances are pretty low.
That's a fair point, but it still touches on the quantity vs. quality argument. Looking at the exclusives I have/had for both consoles (I traded in a lot of Gamecube games back in the day, much to my regret), here's a list:

Gamecube

-Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance
-The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
-The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords Adventures
-The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker
-Luigi's Mansion
-Mario Party 4
-Metroid Prime
-Pikmin
-Resident Evil Remake
-Resident Evil Zero
-Super Smash Brothers Melee
-Star Fox Adventures
-Star Fox Assault
-Star Wars: Rogue Leader
-Super Mario Sunshine

PlayStation 2

-Killzone
-Ratchet and Clank
-Ratchet and Clank 2: Locked and Loaded
-Ratchet and Clank 3
-Resident Evil: Outbreak
-Resident Evil: Outbreak File 2
-Resident Evil: Survivor 2
-Resident Evil: Dead Aim
-Sega Superstars
-Time Crisis 3

I'll specify that what I mean by exclusives here is games that were exclusive within their own console generation, as some of the above got ported to the next one (e.g. Twilight Princess), or started off as exclusive, but got ported later (e.g. RE4 started off on the Gamecube, but got ported to the PS2). I'm likewise not counting enhanced versions as exclusives (e.g. have Sonic Adventure 2 Battle for the Gamecube and Resident Evil: Code Veronica X for the PS2). And of course, this is just my personal experience, but in the scope of said personal experience, the Gamecube has stronger exclusives than the PS2. Obviously I'm missing out on some heavy hitters (e.g. didn't play Final Fantasy X until the PS3 re-release), but that can be said for most collections.

(I can look at the Xbox and Dreamcast exclusives I have too if you want...)
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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Yoshi178 said:
Phoenixmgs said:
Yoshi178 said:
i have played Xenoblade Chronicles X yes. and no, i don't count Xenogears & Xenosaga and such that were released on PS2 as the same series. Xenoblade Chronicles was called "Monado: Beginning of the World" in the first place FFS. just because Tetsuya Takahashi and Monolith soft worked on them all does not make them same the franchise.
Did you play any of the prior "Xeno" games? Yes or No
Maybe. i don't know. can you repeat the question?
Did you play any of the prior "Xeno [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xeno_(series)]" games? Yes or No
 

Yoshi178

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Phoenixmgs said:
Yoshi178 said:
Phoenixmgs said:
Yoshi178 said:
i have played Xenoblade Chronicles X yes. and no, i don't count Xenogears & Xenosaga and such that were released on PS2 as the same series. Xenoblade Chronicles was called "Monado: Beginning of the World" in the first place FFS. just because Tetsuya Takahashi and Monolith soft worked on them all does not make them same the franchise.
Did you play any of the prior "Xeno" games? Yes or No
Maybe. i don't know. can you repeat the question?
Did you play any of the prior "Xeno [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xeno_(series)]" games? Yes or No
You're not the boss of me now!
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

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Phoenixmgs said:
Does it matter how Sony makes a profit? They obviously know how to make massive profits in their Gaming division as they've been doing it for 4 straight generations now.
Yes, it matters considerably how Sony makes a profit. As that may influence how it markets itself and how it seeks revenue. And no, they haven't madethe massive profits you speak of. In fact given the fact that they literally are going to face an increasing uphill battle in hardware, I don't suspect they'll reveal a PS5 anytime. People keep making thoroughly idiotic comments bout Nintendo's abiliuty to produce hardware in the future, and yet it's quite foreseeable both Microsoft and Sony are in a far riskier position.

They can't afford not to make high cost, low possible profitability consoles. Yet ever more of their games can be played on price comparative PCs. As I was saying before, to custom build my PC to something that is thoroughly high end costs me little more than AUD1600.

If I wanted to build something comparable to my PS4 Pro, I could knock it back to AUD700. And I still have all my GOG and Steam games, to boot. Moreover I still have access to 90% of Xbox and PS4 games. But a Nintendo console is the only place I can play Nintendo games, and I can't bring my PS4 Pro nor my gaming rig on the move with me.

Looking at technical spec evolution of the Playstation consoles, I already have a gaming rig that will outcompete or break even with a PS6. I don't need to worry about backwards compatibility, I don't need to worry about buying intermediary consoles, I don't need the same physical space, even ....because to play PS4 games as well as a hypothetical PS6 games, I won't need three consoles littering my apartment.

I can play Gamecube, Wii, and WiiU games on my WiiU. Not withstanding the barrage of Virtual Console access games of the past. Can't play Switch games without a switch, but for the price and space I can have access to four console generations of Nintendo games in two slim designed consoles with easily expandable memory.

Which means I can effectively just put most of my other consoles in dry storage, yet still have access to their content. Which is reasonable considering there's PC games as old as some of my GC games that I have to practically retool to just get them to play on my current gaming rig.

MechCommander ... so good, so fucking hard to make run. So worth it, however. I have it running on my student mini-laptop. Alongside other glorious RTS games like Close Combat: ABTF.

Back in the good old days when real time strategy games (or strategy games in general) didn't fucking suck. They actually challenged you to learn hotkeys. They gave you games where resource management was more than just a handful of numbers in boxes. Where an entire team of soldiers can be wiped out from a hidden MG42 team raking across their advance and you had to live with those permanent consequences in the flow of battle, and accept that they are a certainty in order to take and secure objectives.

Basically the only place to find such nailbiting resource management and absolute cruelty and lack of mercy is in board games, now.

How is Nintendo worth more than Sony when Sony's PSN makes more money than Nintendo [https://www.destructoid.com/sony-made-more-money-with-just-psn-than-nintendo-did-all-year-358076.phtml]? Sony as a whole definitely makes more money than Nintendo. You're telling me if you were offered money equivalent to the profits made by Sony or Nintendo, you'd pick the lower number?
Because it's not about total profit, but risk analysis and market capitalization. Basically what Sony is worth not merely in how it can flog stuff, but in terms of market sentiments and capacity for future growth and what the financial shape of the company looks like. Both Sony and Nintendo are publicly traded companies, which means they need to be open and indiscrete about their spending habits, they have to give overviews of marketing models, and just how fiscally conservative their management is.

This is critically important for future development projects. Because publicly traded companies would prefer to not take out loans from banks to pay for projects. But if investors are not biting, they have limited reasons to give you money. In fact, a lot of IPOs exist for that reason, going publicly traded to pay off existing bank loans in order to leverage cheaper borrowing rates or to bankroll corporate expansions at the cost of becoming a publicly traded company.

This is why market capitalization is important. Nintendo's Switch is a much needed injection of not only capital, but a fantastic means to drive up share prices and demand for Nintendo shares.

This is why market capitalization is important, and why Nintendo is effectively worth more than Sony.

Nintendo in a month not only pushed out a ridiculous amount of break even costing consoles, but an attachment rate of one of their games of 101% of Switch versions of BotW and Switch units. That is a fantastic tune to sing to would-be investors, and the share market is responding to it positively for a reason. Nintendo can move games and consoles effortlessly. ARMS has broken well over 1.1 million copies. Mario Kart 8 Deluxe sold millions on the Switch ... Splatoon 2 ... That's a hell of a lot of money.

I have never seen a Developer attach rate of both games and consoles so large as Nintendo.

Again, I don't even get a shit about how much money each company makes. I don't get why that even came up, neither of us have any stakes in either company. It's which company offers ME the better product, and that's Sony hands-down, it's not even close.
Because it's a pretty phenomenal way to determine 'success' looking at a company's finances and their market models. Lamborghini doesn't need to be successful to sell as many models or as much volume than Nissan Motors.

What content was I not able to get from an Arkham game? I usually don't even enter in the pre-order or Day 1 edition codes for that junk, it's more a waste of my time than anything. I remember when I sold Dishonored 2 and noticed there was an insert for some kind of "pack" that I never used, I merely used it to sweeten my eBay listing. I put in the game disc and play the game. Season Pass stuff is the worst because you don't even know what the fuck you're paying for.
Where to start? Harley Quinn and Catwoman withheld content? 'Augmenting your preorder' in DE:MD?

Nintendo could've just put a mic jack on the tablet to allow for chat just like a regular tablet and phone has... But Nintendo has think like Apple and screw over their customers as much as possible.
Screw over their customers? I'm happy with the product, no 'screwing' required.

I don't have any issue with PSN on my PS3 or PS4, what features don't work? You can just put the console in the DMZ. If there's a patch for a game, you can still play the game.
Because their online authentication server they use for other things like online services like leaderboards or matchmaking,. or whatever, are operating in the background. Regardless if the game is installed or not. If you don't unblock the IPs your PS4 is connected when downloading games, that when you try to run the game, it will fuck up.

So it's literally a problem with how the PS4 uses its online functionality. Then don't get me started on pricing. Which is Australia-centric problem, admittedly. I can buy games for a half or a third of what they cost through the PSN. The predatory nature of PSN is probably the biggest selling point for brick and mortar games in Australia.

The problem is, a 20GB game that should download in about 1-2 hours ends up taking 2 or 3 times that at least with my connection unless I do so.

And it's not just me, either. The way I discovered which IPs to block is precisely because other people online were looking for answers and came up with one. There is also a problem with how the PS4 stores games online and your HDD, necessitating twce as much space when downloading and installing as opposed to other online software distributors like Steam of its physical size.

Sony makes more profits as a company or just their gaming division than Nintendo...
And yet investors (rightly) avoid Sony like the plague ...

Gamecube wasn't a good console in games or in tech (no online, tiny discs, bad controller), what bizarro world do you live in?
Gamecube had superior technical specs, and the controller is considered by most in the gming world as the best one ever produced. Moreover, it simply had better exclusives than any of its competition. But that wasn't enough to save it.