No, it isn't OK.

[Blind Sight]

Why do you label individuals as "black people" and "white people" rather than people who are black/white/latin etc?

Ok, I see where you're coming from in your opening post, but this comment just screams of you trying to force extreme political correctness. It sounds like something from that 'subconscious racist language' that I've heard arguments for (i.e. so they can win an argument someone claims that the other side is 'subconsciously showing racism through vocal and body language), he's dividing them based on their skin colour to show that the interactions between the two don't go one way, ok? Honestly, overanalysis like this is just getting ridicious.

You're right, I did over analyze a bit, however, it's not PC to realize that people aren't defined solely by their race.

Of course not, but picking apart someone's sentence while ignoring their argument simply to show that fact is very politically correct, and that was basically my point. His language doesn't reflect any kind of bias, he's simply structuring them based on skin colour because that's what the debate is about. It's just a lazy way to have an argument, as Penn put it recently on Larry King: "Of course you'd say their comments are racially based, as soon as you call your opponent in an argument racist you automatically win."

 

[101flyboy]

I think we're missing an opportunity for deeper discussion here. Why is it not OK? What defines our values and ethics? Are things right or wrong simply because the majority of people within a culture have decided it is right or wrong, or is there some deeper, more concrete source of virtue. Many people find a source of virtue in their belief in God, but atheists also seem to have a sense of absolute right and wrong even if they tend to disagree about the details of it.

People say that racism is wrong because you can't chose your skin color, but why does that matter? Wasps and roaches didn't chose to be what they are but I don't like them.

Common sense. Wasps, they can harm you. Roaches, obviously are big, unattractive, and somewhat startling when you see one in your house without any notice. However, black skin can't harm you. It's not something that make someone a inherently different as a human being. It's a skin color. So, obviously, there are differences there. It's common sense, there isn't anything really philosophical about it.

 

[101flyboy]

So being against the religions that you yourself admit indoctrinate their followers makes me a bigot? Hah!

I clarified the statement.

 

[101flyboy]

Everybody's a little racist. It's just a question of who admits to it. Racism is bad when you let it affect your judgments and decisions in a legitimately prejudiced point of view. Beyond that? It's none of your damned business.

I tend to find Latinos obnoxious. Does that mean I hate them, or want them gone? No, and I have some great Latino friends who I find to be exceptions to the rule. But sometimes when people get into a sub-culture, it annoys the piss out of me. When someone accepts a role or niche in society, they tend to try to force themselves into that niche in every way, shape, or form. Even to extremes. And you know the people I'm talking about. It's not secluded to race, gender, or sexual preference. They're the Jersey wannabes that sit at the corner of bars and clubs and get in fights over hair and ugly girlfriends. They're the people who wear Irish flags and shamrocks on everything they own, drink nothing but Guinness, despite being a 4th generation American. They're the metalheads who wear all black and band shirts while talking about how generic and shitty modern music and dress styles are. They just rub you the wrong way.

When a person says to me "I don't like black people", unless they're wearing hoods and have a domestic terrorism record, I'm probably going to read this as "I don't like thugs and gangsters", or something else that I can glean about them and their preferences during a conversation. It doesn't make them bad people. Just learn to read between the lines a little bit, and if an opportunity comes up to POLITELY introduce your own views, and maybe even inject a little perspective into their point of view, then take it.

You can't be so sweepingly general about people and their behaviors. You're being just as hypocritical as they are. Which we all do from time to time, but it's our responsibility as smart and reasoning people to play damage control on how much of an asshole that WE look, not others.

You make good points, especially about people who play to a stereotype because that is how they are "supposed" to act. I hate that. With that said, I'm not racist. I'm mixed, Spanish, Mali (African), American Indian, German. I have Italian family, I have Caribbean family. So, I have absolutely zero idea how to even be racist. I don't see people on color. I see people on personality, character, and actions. When it comes to potential romantic mates, the same applies.

I agree that what's best is to politely interject with your own personal POV and more or less converse with someone without coming off disagreeable or attacking. However, I don't necessary think I'm being too general or thinking in too basic of terms if someone says "I don't like blacks/homosexuals/women etc." At the very least, that shows me that person has no ability to actually discuss their view point in a concise way. That's not a positive thing to say, and I'm not going to instantly dislike a person for saying this, but I'm not going to hold someone in a high regard if they do. Now what they say after this is definitely what the focus should be on, but you can't say something like that, and not expect people to look at you sideways from that point forward. But we all should allow people to give their opinions and give them the floor to say what's on their mind.

 

[HellsingerAngel]

I never said that a person isn't entitled to their beliefs.

And I didn't say you did either. Don't put your words in my mouth as they taste ever so bitter.

I said essentially that although you have a right to say something, that damn sure doesn't mean you are right, and I am required to accept your positions as OK when they aren't, that I have to respect bigotry, or agree with it and just sit and complacently watch someone spread lies and hatred. People are entitled to be wrong. You are free to choose wrong.

Awesome. Guess what? You have a choice to be wrong in the fact that you're being a complete bigot in that people can't believe certain ideals without being wrong. I find that wrong. Telling people that they're wrong and that they shouldn't say certain things, even if they are bigots themselves, is wrong in and of itself and is exactly the type of behaviour you want gone. Stop peddling bullshit and calling it ice cream, please.

Let people be who they choose to be? Interesting. Should we let Neo-Nazi skinheads spread racist ideals and be actively racist?

Yes, they have ever right to do so, as much as you have every right to express your opinion against it. That doesn't make either wrong, it just makes them different.

Should we just choose to allow pedophiles be?

Yes, if they're not doing anything wrong with their obsession. If they wish sit idly by or scream at the top of their lungs "I love little children" then let them.

Where does that line end?

There is no line. People can think and say what they want. That's the type of society we live in and damned if your twisted logic is going to ruin it.

At some point there has to be a line, where one does not cross. A moral code.

Why do people need to be censored or told they're wrong for believing in something? That's called a dictatorship, my friend, and those places aren't very fun.[/quote]

I am not evil whatsoever. I'm not silencing anyone. Bigoted beliefs are incorrect.

Glad you think you're incorrect. I suppose this entire thread is now moot.

I'm not going to say otherwise just to give someone the benefit of the doubt. If someone is doing something wrong, they need to be called out on that accordingly. It's really not hard logic to fathom.

I agree. Doing something is wrong in that it could cause harm. Saying something is perfectly fine. Believing in something is great!

People can and have stood up for a lot of wrong things. That doesn't make it right whatsoever. Just because someone believes something or says they are right, doesn't mean they are right.

I agree, you aren't right and nothing you say will make it so.

Let's stop PC bullshit and call things for what they truly are.

Glad to know the freedom to say what you want is now deemed "political correctness", when in fact being PC is the exact opposite. If anything, you're the one being PC by saying "bigotry is wrong and everyone should have equal rights" because that's being politically correct to all those that have disabilities, different heritages and sexes that don't have the luxuries provided in places like North America. Good job on getting that right.

For you to say I'm wrong in not supporting bigotry is about as..................unspeakable as it gets.

For you to say someone is wrong just because they beleive in something you don't is even worse.

You essentially support bigots and bigoted ideals.

No, I support speaking your mind and not being afraid to be who you are, whether that be a person that hates black, lesbian women or a black, lesbian woman and the convinction to be strong enough to ignore those that say you're wrong for believing what you are to be good, whether that be a black, lesbian woman or a person who hates black, lesbian women.

The point you seem to be missing is that neither is better than the other. Each group condemns the other for being wrong and you're no different. The fact is, neither is wrong because they've stood up for something they believe in and that's what life is about. You need to have ideals that you, personally, believe are right and wrong and hold no sway to another's judgement. However, this also means that you need to realise that every other person is entitled to this no matter what their beleifs. This includes the fact that they are not wrong! For you to say they are wrong strips the vadilidy of having beliefs, freedom of thought and such nice liberties we're granted.

That is uncivilized and inhumane.

Actually, it's considered the peak of human civility to allow others to think, feel and say what they want. You're actually suggesting regression to a totalitarian regieme of thought.

There aren't two sides of the coin.

No, there is always two sides to a coin, that's why the expression follows such logic. To even follow the metaphore, there's someone who hates black people out there that could be posting a very similarly expressed but opposite viewpoint post about how people who think equality is the only way are wrong and that you're stupid.

Not all view points are valid.

Yes, they are. That's what philosophy is all about and your question essentially asks that question. Then you decide to 180 with that statement in that, no, there is no room for discussion anymore, I just want to hear that I'm right. Well, sorry, but you aren't. There is only one thing that's wrong in this world and that's telling someone else that their beliefs are wrong.

Bigotry is wrong. Common sense tells us this. If you don't have the common sense to comprehend this, then I'm sorry for you.

I'd just like to know who's prevailing common sense is this thta we speak of? Your's? Humanity's? Because, correct me if I'm wrong, common sense about one hundred years ago was theate than shit on the heel of our shoes, that homosexuals needed to be strung up and tortured/killed to be examples to the people and that women were to be subservient of men because they were the weaker sex. So, yeah, "common sense" dictates a lot of things that have been proven not as correct as we think time and time again. The only true constant is that people will believe what they wish to believe and that they are not wrong for thinking so, but rather wrong for subjecting people and forcing them to believe that their ideas are "the only ideas". Kinda like you saying that hating someone for arbitrary reasons is wrong, no matter what and not accepting that there are different viewpoints on the matter and simply tossing any sort of argument out the window with your self-imposed impunity.

Yes, clearly not a bigot at all...

 

[101flyboy]

Is it okay? Maybe not but it must certainly be allowed. Yes, people must be allowed to be racist, people must be allowed to have opinions that others think are wrong. It is and always should be allowed to be wrong.

People should definitely be allowed to formulate their own views, however, saying people should be "allowed to be wrong" is........50-50. They most certainly are entitled to their beliefs, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be pointed in the right direction also.

 

[ryanxm]

i wish i knew how to post pictures cause i had one for just such an occasion but i dont know how to post them..hmmm :/

anyway i dont think it was nessecary to make a new thread about this and who is to say its not ok to be racist? who has the right to tell us individuals what is right and what is wrong even if our hearts feel diffrently!?

the answer is the legal system!

oh just to clear up any misconceptions before they happen i personaly am not racist

 

[Pecoros7]

]Common sense. Wasps, they can harm you. Roaches, obviously are big, unattractive, and somewhat startling when you see one in your house without any notice. However, black skin can't harm you. It's not something that make someone a inherently different as a human being. It's a skin color. So, obviously, there are differences there. It's common sense, there isn't anything really philosophical about it.

While I agree with you that there is no reason to dislike someone because of their skin tone, I'm trying to understand is what drives people's ethical standards. I see a lot of ethical conversations on the Escapist and I've often wondered how people come to their conclusions. What makes it wrong? Is it wrong just because there isn't a good reason for it? I do lots of things I don't have a good reason for. Is it wrong because it does harm? Why should I care?

I believe in an ethical position based on doing the most good for the most people. I define good in this context as something that reduces suffering or increases joy. I believe that the prosperity of individuals is ultimately best served by providing for the prosperity of the society. Taking racism as an example, simply having racist ideas does no harm, but acting on those ideas does harm to a part of our society and will thereby harm society as a whole.

As a humorous aside; I would be startled to find a large, unattractive black man in my house without any notice, but that's hardly a reason to dislike black people. It is true, however, that I have never been stung by a black person.

 

[DocBalance]

Yes, it is ok. It's called a difference opinion. You can either debate them to death, shoot them, or the option I opt for when someone disagrees with me in a way that I don't see as fascinating to explore and learn from, simply ignore them. Everyone has a right to their opinion.

 

[101flyboy]

This has bee argued so much over the years, but the first thing i would like to say is this is the internet and you are going to hear some nasty stuff and there is nothing you can do about it, the second is it is okay as long as it if for a half decent reason, i like black people but i hate the gangster rap crap, a black person is a nice suit is just fine and i have no problem with them but when i see a black person being gangster i have a huge urge to slug them one, reason being is they are causing a downfall of culture and there is so much violence and hate and other crap i dont want to think about it just upsets me. well whatever thats just my opinion.

Well, that's disliking a particular trait. That isn't the same as disliking a person for who they are immutably.

 

[linkvegeta]

This has bee argued so much over the years, but the first thing i would like to say is this is the internet and you are going to hear some nasty stuff and there is nothing you can do about it, the second is it is okay as long as it if for a half decent reason, i like black people but i hate the gangster rap crap, a black person is a nice suit is just fine and i have no problem with them but when i see a black person being gangster i have a huge urge to slug them one, reason being is they are causing a downfall of culture and there is so much violence and hate and other crap i dont want to think about it just upsets me. well whatever thats just my opinion.

Well, that's disliking a particular trait. That isn't the same as disliking a person for who they are immutably.

Well thats true, but people are going to be racist no matter what you do, i say you can be racist as long as you keep it to yourself. most people don't like to hear it, then again its the internet and your gong to hear it regardless, at least this site has some good rules... then you look at a site like 4chan wow if you go there you will remember it... and will most likely be a bad memory

 

[101flyboy]

So, I'm pretty new here, hello everyone, I'm sure you've seen me around. Anyway, I was checking out OTD forum last night, and some guy said something like I don't like black people, am I right? I don't like ____________ group, I don't recall who it was. And he said that was a legitimate opinion to have, and that it's just a preference. Others agreed with him. And I've noticed people making excuses for this type of behavior.

Well, no. It isn't OK to racist, homophobic, sexist etc. It isn't OK to dislike black people for their race, it isn't OK to be against homosexuality, and it isn't OK to think women are lesser beings than men, think all other religious options are beneath your chosen belief, and we can go on from there. It is NOT OK. Yes, people are entitled to their opinions. That doesn't make them right, they're still wrong, but it's that persons' choice to be wrong. And remember, people don't choose to be black/gay/women etc. A lot of people don't really "choose" their religious beliefs either, they are indoctrinated into them. However, bigoted beliefs against these groups is most certainly a choice.

I get tired when people make defense of such actions. People especially do it when it comes to sexuality/gender related things. Like somehow religion/"ick" factor/society/whatever bullshit they can think of makes is reasonable to be a bigot against these things. Well, someone needs to say it loud and clear. It isn't. And thinking it's acceptable and giving it a pass makes you part of the problem, because these attitudes are what causes the actions against legal citizens. There is a reason why individuals such as this are viewed negatively. It's because they are negative people, and should be seen as such.

What do you all think? Am I right or wrong? Discuss.

It's in our nature to be suspicious of the outsider... it's the "us" vs. "them" mentality, and all species have it.

Now, I fully believe than as intelligent human beings in modern society, we should be able to work around that instinctual drive, and for the most part, we do. Society as a whole has become more and more tolerant of minorities, and we've seen great changes (equality for women, blacks, etc), especially throughout the Western world.

Now, I fully believe in equal rights for all, but are you seriously suggesting that a person should be persecuted for their beliefs or opinions?
As long as one doesn't act out their beliefs in discriminatory ways, then he or she should be allowed to think whatever the hell they want, free from scrutiny. I could dislike Arabs, for example, but if that dislike never permeates into my attitude towards them, or influences the way I interact with or treat them, then it's harmless. A person should not be condemned for their own private opinions, unless those opinions affect others in a negative way.

But yeah, like I said, it's an instinctual thing. We, as a species, are gradually overcoming the limits bestowed upon us by nature, but for now, we're nothing but animals.

I agree that it is pretty much natural to be suspicious/threatened/hesitant when it comes to something/someone different. But as you say, people should be mature, intelligent and reasoned enough to realize this wrong. I'm definitely not saying a person should be persecuted for their beliefs, however, that if those beliefs are something that potentially could cause harm to society or individuals in it, and those beliefs are bigoted and without principle, they should be seen as such. Saying a person shouldn't be condemned for bigotry I disagree with, because it is that bigotry that is allowed to fester that contributes to negative actions. Also, this bigotry affects the bigots' ability to function in a society with people they have irrational biases against. So, it's an all around negative thing, and what do people try to do in negative situations? Turn it into a positive. Or hide that negative so it has absolutely zero impact. Shouldn't be any different here.

 

[tahrey]

You're allowed to not like certain people or things, even if it's for entirely spurious or illogical reasons. It's what you do in response to that preference, those things or people, how you treat them etc, and whether you revel in said preference as an excuse for being a total dickspaz, that's the make or break.

Going around crowing about it isn't really a good start, admittedly, but he's not yet beyond redemption...

 

[mechazeep]

Well, racists are racists. You usually can't change that.

 

[Nieroshai]

What if you're indoctrinated into bigoted beliefs?

You need to do your part to make better of yourself. Indoctrinated or not, it is a choice. No-one is born a bigot. You can choose to not be a bigot also. Or, one can choose not to act on that bigotry. I know a friend who grew up in an EXTREMELY difficult situation with conservative baptist parents, and he ain't no bigot.

But really, I shouldn't have included religion as quite the same as race and the others, since it is ultimately a choice. Which is why it's annoying when the ultra religious play the victim card when other groups correctly condemn them for their actions that are not in any way validated by religious doctrine.

More discussion value. Defend your second paragraph, which I bolded for emphasis. Explain why my religion is "correctly condemned." And do so without making yourself look like a bigot, on this thread where you're saying bigotry is not ok. I'm a nondenominationalist Protestant, by the way, but let's assume I was any religion if you wish for discussion's sake.

 

[Freeze_L]

Totally agree with you. Pepole should always be respected as pepole, no matter what someone does, believes, or any thing else, they are always pepole and always deserve respect. Now whether or not you agree with them is another issue, but they always deserve respect as a person above all else. You know as a Catholic this idea always seemed so natural to me, and it bothers me how so many pepole use "the word of God" to justify saying someone is less then human, perhaps bothers is to light a word, disgusts is a better word.

 

[Tsaba]

Well, actually, we are born racist.

Nope. We're born to prefer similarity, but that doesn't make us racist.

That's like saying we're all born sprinters.

Well if the gays/lesbians can claim it's in there genes (which it is) then I'm sure someone is bound to make a valid argument that being racist is in the genes.

But, I believe the way you are raised and taught by your parents, your "core" beliefs is what helps define you and helps mold you into the man/woman/carebear you are today.

 

[bdcjacko]

I just don't like anyone. That is cool, right?