Norway Massacre: Anders Breivik sentenced 21 years

[BloatedGuppy]

I see a lot of people saying he should be given the death penalty. First of all, Norway doesn't have it, and secondly, I firmly believe that the only real reason people support the death penalty is that they want the satisfaction of taking revenge on bad people. Or in other words, they support the death penalty because it's fun to kill people you don't like. That's not a good principle to bade your justice system on.

Yes and no. I am ethically opposed to the death penalty for the exact reasons you state, but I do understand the reasoning behind it in extreme circumstances. How can you ever really expect to rehabilitate a Clifford Olson, or a Ted Bundy, or Jeffrey Dahmer? Some people balk at the idea of paying to house them, clothe them, educate them, pay for their health care, etc, etc, when they have wrought such extraordinary harm. And I can sympathize with that. While I am generally profoundly pacifistic and argue strenuously against capital punishment, if someone harmed a person I loved I'd probably want red handed revenge too.

Capthca: Treat yo self. Captcha wants us to treat ourselves to bloody revenge.

 

[BaronUberstein]

So these parts:

Under Norwegian law the sentence could be extended.

However, inmates who are still considered a threat to society after their sentence is up can be held indefinitely.

can just be ignored then?

Bear in mind the prison system in Norway is about rehabilitation and protection(of the public and the convicted), not revenge.

And I absolutely abhor the death penalty. It's pointless vengeance and has no place in today's society. Obligatory IMO.

I've actually heard very good things about the Norwegian Prison System's results.

The real question though, is rehabilitation possible for somebody so mentally messed up?

 

[Dango]

Well if he's out in 21 years and completely rehabilitated, I don't see a problem.

And boy am I glad we have mother fucking telepaths able to tell exactly what Anders Breivik is thinking.

 

[Spartan212]

Ha, I knew someone couldn't make this thread without someone twisting it around to be about how America is bad and full of crime and stupid Americans!

Well, when americans for some reason believe they are in a position to judge how we do things in Norway, (god forbid, right, that there is any subject ever where their opinion isn't valued or needed) it seems only fair to point out how beyond the pale fucked up that country is.

Like I said in the other thread, as someone who lost friends that day, I am content with the sentence, and I am looking forward to moving on.

Who's judging? All I see is people having a discussion on the differences between the two judicial systems.

You call us judgmental and then state "it seems fair to point out how beyond the pale fucked up that country is"? Seems a bit hypocritical, no?

 

[In Search of Username]

I think a minimum of 10 years is very lenient... this man is obviously criminally insane. There are (twisted) but real motivations to go on a mass killing. For example if a group of people VERY badly wronged you and you killed them all the motivation, while slightly petty, is still real and human. You would slaughter those you hated and had reason to hate SO MUCH but obviously have the same human qualms about an innocent child or anyone else, the crime has purpose and an intended target. The motivation here was not like that. It was aimless. It was pointless and hinting of insanity. As such i dont think rehabilitation is an option for the safety of those around him. He should be locked away for life. Not for "revenge" or to "Make him suffer because im weird like that" but because its only safe. He has ZERO regard for human life and hes a dangerous man.

No, the motivation, in his eyes, was political. You sound like you're talking about someone like the guy who killed people at the Batman screening, but in this case, he is a politically motivated terrorist, not just some psycho. However unstable you'd have to be to think killing innocent people is justified by ANY cause at all, he still has a clear motivation, at least in his own mind.

And to all the people saying 21 years isn't enough, he can be kept indefinitely if he's still considered a threat, so don't worry about it.

Oh, and if you call for the death penalty that makes you just a little bit more like the man you want dead. Just remember that.

 

[communist dwarf]

Well, I would prefer that the families get to kill him, cause I'm old fashioned like that. However I could settle for life in prison with no human contact or day light ever again...

The link below shows the kind of cell he'll be staying in:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19354906

He will intially be kept away from other prisoners, but not for long I guess. Seems like a pretty cosy room for someone who killed 77 people in cold blood.

Still better than what most people have. Air conditioning, a desk, a computer, a chair, a window, and free food and health care.

TL;DR

Spoiler

Hell, I don't even get health care and I am in college. Apparently being in college, unemployed, and living with a family with innumerate health issues, only one of whom is employed at a grocery store, makes too much money for the government to help out.

 

[Chairman Miaow]

Norway's legal system seems to work brilliantly in general, but I do think that sometimes there is no rehabilitating people, and this is one of those cases. I know that he won't ever get out in actuality, but his cell is a little too cushy.

Can't honestly say that.

He hasn't even served 21 days of his sentance, never mind 21 years.

Look, he is brash, young, and stupid. But in two decades he won't be young. And he might not be brash OR stupid. He may be a completely different person by that time happens at which point yes, there is hope for rehabilitation.

Maybe he'll change, maybe he won't. I don't know the guy and there's no way for me to say if he will. I trust in the Norway system's judgement on this matter; after all their system seems to work very well!

Ultimately, it's up to him.

I think if you read his manifesto or just think about the way his mind works and his motivations for his crimes, it's clear that he just doesn't think in the same way most people do. To rehabilitate him you would have to do more than just educate him and treat him humanely, you would have to change how he works at the most base level.

Fortunately they have two decades to try to do so.

And if they don't, they can keep him until they do.

I still have trust in their system in either case--it works.

I do agree, the system definitely does work. I just think that it's very obviously a wasted effort in this case. I'm not saying death sentence or move him into a hole in the ground, just that attempting to rehabilitate somebody like that is a wasted effort. Obviously they can't pick and choose when the law applies and sentence him to life or anything, but that's what he might as well be getting, and it would save a lot of money on pointless hearings and things.

 

[DracoSuave]

Norway's legal system seems to work brilliantly in general, but I do think that sometimes there is no rehabilitating people, and this is one of those cases. I know that he won't ever get out in actuality, but his cell is a little too cushy.

Can't honestly say that.

He hasn't even served 21 days of his sentance, never mind 21 years.

Look, he is brash, young, and stupid. But in two decades he won't be young. And he might not be brash OR stupid. He may be a completely different person by that time happens at which point yes, there is hope for rehabilitation.

Maybe he'll change, maybe he won't. I don't know the guy and there's no way for me to say if he will. I trust in the Norway system's judgement on this matter; after all their system seems to work very well!

Ultimately, it's up to him.

I think if you read his manifesto or just think about the way his mind works and his motivations for his crimes, it's clear that he just doesn't think in the same way most people do. To rehabilitate him you would have to do more than just educate him and treat him humanely, you would have to change how he works at the most base level.

Fortunately they have two decades to try to do so.

And if they don't, they can keep him until they do.

I still have trust in their system in either case--it works.

I do agree, the system definitely does work. I just think that it's very obviously a wasted effort in this case. I'm not saying death sentence or move him into a hole in the ground, just that attempting to rehabilitate somebody like that is a wasted effort. Obviously they can't pick and choose when the law applies and sentence him to life or anything, but that's what he might as well be getting, and it would save a lot of money on pointless hearings and things.

I just think it's more a matter for professionals to decide. There's a LOT of time for remorse to set in here.

Some of histories most vicious murderers have learned remorse. I don't think it's right to write anyone off scant days into their very long sentence.

 

[Jonluw]

Revenge is for pussies.

Anders has been dragged into the light and shown for what he is; a cruel, nasty and deluded little man who did a terrible thing.

That was what he wanted. And he got it. The man wanted stage time and to express his extreme viewpoint. He did not get much chance to do that in court, but he did in deed get the attention. He is a sociopath. Our view of him does not matter to him. It is no punishment.

Him doing his crimes in hopes of getting publicity does not justify declaring him insane as a way to invalidate his views and make him feel that he has lost.
The justice system should be just and not base its evaluations of sanity on what conclusion would cause the accused the most grief.

Let him live in prison believing he's exposed the corrupt systems forcing multiculturalism on Norway. Noone who wasn't already convinced is buying the nonsense he spews anyways.

 

[Chairman Miaow]

Norway's legal system seems to work brilliantly in general, but I do think that sometimes there is no rehabilitating people, and this is one of those cases. I know that he won't ever get out in actuality, but his cell is a little too cushy.

Can't honestly say that.

He hasn't even served 21 days of his sentance, never mind 21 years.

Look, he is brash, young, and stupid. But in two decades he won't be young. And he might not be brash OR stupid. He may be a completely different person by that time happens at which point yes, there is hope for rehabilitation.

Maybe he'll change, maybe he won't. I don't know the guy and there's no way for me to say if he will. I trust in the Norway system's judgement on this matter; after all their system seems to work very well!

Ultimately, it's up to him.

I think if you read his manifesto or just think about the way his mind works and his motivations for his crimes, it's clear that he just doesn't think in the same way most people do. To rehabilitate him you would have to do more than just educate him and treat him humanely, you would have to change how he works at the most base level.

Fortunately they have two decades to try to do so.

And if they don't, they can keep him until they do.

I still have trust in their system in either case--it works.

I do agree, the system definitely does work. I just think that it's very obviously a wasted effort in this case. I'm not saying death sentence or move him into a hole in the ground, just that attempting to rehabilitate somebody like that is a wasted effort. Obviously they can't pick and choose when the law applies and sentence him to life or anything, but that's what he might as well be getting, and it would save a lot of money on pointless hearings and things.

I just think it's more a matter for professionals to decide. There's a LOT of time for remorse to set in here.

Some of histories most vicious murderers have learned remorse. I don't think it's right to write anyone off scant days into their very long sentence.

The guy already has remorse. Remorse for not killing more. He apologised for not killing more. If he feels any regret after his 21 years are up, it will only be because he has been imprisoned for that long, not because he killed people.

 

[In Search of Username]

Revenge is for pussies.

Anders has been dragged into the light and shown for what he is; a cruel, nasty and deluded little man who did a terrible thing.

That was what he wanted. And he got it. The man wanted stage time and to express his extreme viewpoint. He did not get much chance to do that in court, but he did in deed get the attention. He is a sociopath. Our view of him does not matter to him. It is no punishment.

He'd only get more attention if he was killed though. The kind of attention he's getting now is univeral hatred. If he received the death penalty, people might view him as a martyr.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

No, the motivation, in his eyes, was political. You sound like you're talking about someone like the guy who killed people at the Batman screening, but in this case, he is a politically motivated terrorist, not just some psycho. However unstable you'd have to be to think killing innocent people is justified by ANY cause at all, he still has a clear motivation, at least in his own mind.

And to all the people saying 21 years isn't enough, he can be kept indefinitely if he's still considered a threat, so don't worry about it.

Oh, and if you call for the death penalty that makes you just a little bit more like the man you want dead. Just remember that.

Id agree the motivation was political if he targeted politicians or even people who had power to uphold views he disagreed with. Kids cant change politics. He just went and killed a bunch of innocents and then cited a "human" motivation. I cant say "I wanted to get revenge on this guy who slept with my wife by driving a bus into that orphanage" because although ive explained an understandable motivation my actions dont follow any rational to link it to my motivation and pretty much label my actions criminal insanity.

Good on the indefinite as long as he remains dangerous. The law is for protection. Not for revenge. I think people who want to torture him are cruel and a little sadistic. SAW is for your torture porn, dont make it real life as well. Its a little freaky for the rest of us.

 

[Russirishican]

What ever happened when we executed people for killing someone else? An eye for an eye. Besides, lets be honest, the jails are full and over population is becoming a problem.

 

[In Search of Username]

No, the motivation, in his eyes, was political. You sound like you're talking about someone like the guy who killed people at the Batman screening, but in this case, he is a politically motivated terrorist, not just some psycho. However unstable you'd have to be to think killing innocent people is justified by ANY cause at all, he still has a clear motivation, at least in his own mind.

And to all the people saying 21 years isn't enough, he can be kept indefinitely if he's still considered a threat, so don't worry about it.

Oh, and if you call for the death penalty that makes you just a little bit more like the man you want dead. Just remember that.

Id agree the motivation was political if he targeted politicians or even people who had power to uphold views he disagreed with. Kids cant change politics. He just went and killed a bunch of innocents and then cited a "human" motivation. I cant say "I wanted to get revenge on this guy who slept with my wife by driving a bus into that orphanage" because although ive explained an understandable motivation my actions dont follow any rational to link it to my motivation and pretty much label my actions criminal insanity.

Good on the indefinite as long as he remains dangerous. The law is for protection. Not for revenge. I think people who want to torture him are cruel and a little sadistic. SAW is for your torture porn, dont make it real life as well. Its a little freaky for the rest of us.

Well, that's what terrorism is; trying to scare people into accepting your political point of view by targeting innocents. It's a sick, perverse kind of logic but there is logic behind it, is my point. This wasn't just random killing, it was killing with a perceived purpose in the eyes of the killer.

Yeah, it always worries me when people treat justice as a way of getting revenge.

 

[Xenowolf]

Well no, when 21 years have passed he will be evaluated, then that will happen every five years, and seeing how messed up he is the sessions are going to be rubber stamp sessions.

captcha: french phrases

This. Also, what kind of judge at these evaluation sessions will want to be remembered as the person who let Breivik free?

 

[DracoSuave]

Norway's legal system seems to work brilliantly in general, but I do think that sometimes there is no rehabilitating people, and this is one of those cases. I know that he won't ever get out in actuality, but his cell is a little too cushy.

Can't honestly say that.

He hasn't even served 21 days of his sentance, never mind 21 years.

Look, he is brash, young, and stupid. But in two decades he won't be young. And he might not be brash OR stupid. He may be a completely different person by that time happens at which point yes, there is hope for rehabilitation.

Maybe he'll change, maybe he won't. I don't know the guy and there's no way for me to say if he will. I trust in the Norway system's judgement on this matter; after all their system seems to work very well!

Ultimately, it's up to him.

I think if you read his manifesto or just think about the way his mind works and his motivations for his crimes, it's clear that he just doesn't think in the same way most people do. To rehabilitate him you would have to do more than just educate him and treat him humanely, you would have to change how he works at the most base level.

Fortunately they have two decades to try to do so.

And if they don't, they can keep him until they do.

I still have trust in their system in either case--it works.

I do agree, the system definitely does work. I just think that it's very obviously a wasted effort in this case. I'm not saying death sentence or move him into a hole in the ground, just that attempting to rehabilitate somebody like that is a wasted effort. Obviously they can't pick and choose when the law applies and sentence him to life or anything, but that's what he might as well be getting, and it would save a lot of money on pointless hearings and things.

I just think it's more a matter for professionals to decide. There's a LOT of time for remorse to set in here.

Some of histories most vicious murderers have learned remorse. I don't think it's right to write anyone off scant days into their very long sentence.

The guy already has remorse. Remorse for not killing more. He apologised for not killing more. If he feels any regret after his 21 years are up, it will only be because he has been imprisoned for that long, not because he killed people.

And I don't feel that people are incapable of change, mainly because people DO change.

You can't take a snapshot of what someone says as they are thirty, and say that's how he'll be at fifty, especially after his environment changes rapidly AND he is being addressed by professionals who have the job of HELPING him make that change.

That's just illogical. Sorry, everyone has the potential to change. I'm not saying he will--but he may be rehabilitated and that's the entire point of their system. I can respect a system that's willing to give that a shot.

 

[Dangit2019]

Very good.

Now turn the cameras off, forget his name and his actions, and let him and his twisted beliefs rot and die in that jail cell forever. Let us never mention him again, and as he watches the world continue without him, his stand and acts forgotten, that will be a torture to his mind more potent than anything we could consciously subject him to.

Because what is the worst fate a human being can have? For their life to be impactless on this universe, and their person forgotten.

This. I also hope we just do the same to the Aurora shooter. I honestly don't give a shit why he thought he was right, the point was that he wasn't, and he's a dick, and dicks that kill people don't even deserve the thought of being recognized.