Norway Massacre: Anders Breivik sentenced 21 years

[DJjaffacake]

What ever happened when we executed people for killing someone else?

The civilised world stopped doing it because it's morally repugnant.

An eye for an eye.

Makes the whole world blind

Besides, lets be honest, the jails are full and over population is becoming a problem.

Except Norway doesn't have that problem.

 

[Meight08]

What ever happened when we executed people for killing someone else? An eye for an eye. Besides, lets be honest, the jails are full and over population is becoming a problem.

An eye for an eye just makes a whole world blind, Also some countries in europe are closing jails, And many european countries have negative population growth.

 

[Jack Rascal]

Well, I would prefer that the families get to kill him, cause I'm old fashioned like that. However I could settle for life in prison with no human contact or day light ever again...

The link below shows the kind of cell he'll be staying in:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19354906

He will intially be kept away from other prisoners, but not for long I guess. Seems like a pretty cosy room for someone who killed 77 people in cold blood.

You think that looks cosy? My flat is 34 square metres, I have a big TV, PS3 (and games), computer, DVD player (and films to watch), big bed where I can roll around all night long, kitchen, balcony and a bathroom. I like my flat, it's kinda crappy to be honest and tiny, but I'm happy with it. But If I was to be confined to this flat for 21 years, not allowed to go outside, see my friends or travel, I would go mad.

People tend to forget that confinement is the punishment. You have no freedom. Breivik may have a treadmill, but that's all he has for the rest of his life. He got 21 years and after that his case is reviewed. If he isn't killed in prison, he will be there for the rest of his life.

 

[Burst6]

What ever happened when we executed people for killing someone else? An eye for an eye. Besides, lets be honest, the jails are full and over population is becoming a problem.

What happened was that most of the civilized world realized that the death sentence is a lazy and risky thing that's not only very very expensive, but it can also kill innocents and people that can be rehabilitated.

And besides have you seen Norway's crime rates? They're doing just fine over there.

 

[Chairman Miaow]

Norway's legal system seems to work brilliantly in general, but I do think that sometimes there is no rehabilitating people, and this is one of those cases. I know that he won't ever get out in actuality, but his cell is a little too cushy.

Can't honestly say that.

He hasn't even served 21 days of his sentance, never mind 21 years.

Look, he is brash, young, and stupid. But in two decades he won't be young. And he might not be brash OR stupid. He may be a completely different person by that time happens at which point yes, there is hope for rehabilitation.

Maybe he'll change, maybe he won't. I don't know the guy and there's no way for me to say if he will. I trust in the Norway system's judgement on this matter; after all their system seems to work very well!

Ultimately, it's up to him.

I think if you read his manifesto or just think about the way his mind works and his motivations for his crimes, it's clear that he just doesn't think in the same way most people do. To rehabilitate him you would have to do more than just educate him and treat him humanely, you would have to change how he works at the most base level.

Fortunately they have two decades to try to do so.

And if they don't, they can keep him until they do.

I still have trust in their system in either case--it works.

I do agree, the system definitely does work. I just think that it's very obviously a wasted effort in this case. I'm not saying death sentence or move him into a hole in the ground, just that attempting to rehabilitate somebody like that is a wasted effort. Obviously they can't pick and choose when the law applies and sentence him to life or anything, but that's what he might as well be getting, and it would save a lot of money on pointless hearings and things.

I just think it's more a matter for professionals to decide. There's a LOT of time for remorse to set in here.

Some of histories most vicious murderers have learned remorse. I don't think it's right to write anyone off scant days into their very long sentence.

The guy already has remorse. Remorse for not killing more. He apologised for not killing more. If he feels any regret after his 21 years are up, it will only be because he has been imprisoned for that long, not because he killed people.

And I don't feel that people are incapable of change, mainly because people DO change.

You can't take a snapshot of what someone says as they are thirty, and say that's how he'll be at fifty, especially after his environment changes rapidly AND he is being addressed by professionals who have the job of HELPING him make that change.

That's just illogical. Sorry, everyone has the potential to change. I'm not saying he will--but he may be rehabilitated and that's the entire point of their system. I can respect a system that's willing to give that a shot.

I'm not saying people can't change. I'm saying that somebody who has based their life on an ideology to the point where they will kill 70 people, more if he had his way, cannot change their belief in that ideology.

Edit: I have also said that I do respect the Norwegian system, and that it clearly works, just that this case is a wasted effort.

 

[Naeras]

Id agree the motivation was political if he targeted politicians or even people who had power to uphold views he disagreed with. Kids cant change politics. He just went and killed a bunch of innocents and then cited a "human" motivation. I cant say "I wanted to get revenge on this guy who slept with my wife by driving a bus into that orphanage" because although ive explained an understandable motivation my actions dont follow any rational to link it to my motivation and pretty much label my actions criminal insanity.

No, it was definitely politically motivated. The gunning happened at a summer camp for the Laborer Party's youth organization, and he did it to "prevent further recruitment into a party of destructive multiculturalists" or something like that. So yeah, he massacred politicians that were "ruining Norway and letting the muslims take over"(lol). Fatload of good that did him, as the recruitment to all the political youth parties skyrocketed after the Utøya killings.

So yeah, it took a week before everything he ever tried officially failed. Pretty much every single Norwegian reacted with a collective "fuck you" and reacted in the exact opposite manner he had hoped for.

 

[Gardenia]

He will never get out. Even if he is deemed to be "reformed," they still have to hold him until they can guarantee that it's safe for him on the outside. Which will never happen. He has left far too many people scarred for life, and upon his hypothetical release he would be killed within a few days.

 

[DracoSuave]

I'm not saying people can't change. I'm saying that somebody who has based their life on an ideology to the point where they will kill 70 people, more if he had his way, cannot change their belief in that ideology.

Edit: I have also said that I do respect the Norwegian system, and that it clearly works, just that this case is a wasted effort.

And that's a single snapshot of a single person's life.

We don't know what lead him to that point. We don't know where he goes from here. If such people are truly unchanging, then how did he get there in the first place? How is it possible for a man to change so that he's willing to kill 70 people, but not able to change such that he's remorseful about having killed 70 people?

So people can change for the worse but never the better?

I simply refuse to believe that. Change can work in both directions,

But, I suppose it's easier to believe that people cannot change. If such a person could be rehabilited then at some point the question of forgiveness must come up. And when you're talking about such a level of mass murder... forgiveness is a very hard thing to ask of anyone. It's hard to contemplate and is certainly not an easy choice.

When someone does something unforgivable I suppose believing they are irredeemable makes it a lot easier to swallow. I certainly can't fault anyone for having that view.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

No, it was definitely politically motivated. The gunning happened at a summer camp for the Laborer Party's youth organization, and he did it to "prevent further recruitment into a party of destructive multiculturalists" or something like that. So yeah, he massacred politicians that were "ruining Norway and letting the muslims take over"(lol). Fatload of good that did him, as the recruitment to all the political youth parties skyrocketed after the Utøya killings.

So yeah, it took a week before everything he ever tried officially failed. Pretty much every single Norwegian reacted with a collective "fuck you" and reacted in the exact opposite manner he had hoped for.

Wasnt aware it was a kids camp for one political party. That changes it somewhat.

Id still say that while his motivation is technically political id call him a psycho due to the extreme and irrational response to a regular human issue:

"I dont like party X so i...":

"Vote against them"
"Kill kids who agree with them"

"I dont like the school bullies so i...":

"Report it"
"Kill everyone in the school".

"Today a leaf fell on my head and annoyed me so i..."

"Brushed it off"
"Burned down a forest and rolled naked in the ashes"


I think to make such an irrational jump in what is a "reasonable" or even an "effective" response you have to be insane or psychopathic.

 

[Ryotknife]

See here [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate].

Norway: 0.6 murders per 100,000 inhabitants per year.
United States: 4.2 murders per 100,000 inhabitants per year.

With your rates being seven times higher, I don't think Americans have any right to critique the Norwegian justice system. In fact, you should probably be taking notes.

OT: Probably for the best. The only other outcome would have been him being declared legally insane. While calling him sane was exactly what Breivik wanted, it was also probably the correct decision. I mean he's clearly crazy in an informal sense, as you have to be to kill that many people for such nonsense reasons. But he was in control of his actions, like he wasn't hallucinating or anything, so he's not insane from a legal standpoint I don't think.

Population of Norway = 5 million
Population of America = 315 million

More people = more crimes.

America's legal system is in shambles, but those numbers count for something.

he did post per 100,000 which bypasses total population.

but i would have to say, how many different religious, culturual, and ethnic groups does Norway have? because it is probably a drop in the bucket compared to the US. It is great that Norway has less crime than the US. Seriously, no sarcasm. But their scenario is infinetely easier to deal with than the US.

 

[DanielBrown]

but i would have to say, how many different religious, culturual, and ethnic groups does Norway have? because it is probably a drop in the bucket compared to the US. It is great that Norway has less crime than the US. Seriously, no sarcasm. But their scenario is infinetely easier to deal with than the US.

Norway
86.2% Norwegians
2% Sami
11.8% other

Afaik Norway is the most religious country in Scandinavia, but that isn't saying much as Atheism dominates this part of Europe. In Sweden we get signed into the church when we're born, which really screws up the numbers since no one can be arsed to sign out. Believe Norway have the same system.

USA
White 72.4%
Black/African American 12.6%
Asian 4.8%
American Indian and Alaska Native 0.9%
Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander 0.2%
Other 6.2%
Two or more races 2.9%
Hispanic/Latino (of any race) 16.3%

Not sure what you're trying to get at though.

 

[Ryotknife]

but i would have to say, how many different religious, culturual, and ethnic groups does Norway have? because it is probably a drop in the bucket compared to the US. It is great that Norway has less crime than the US. Seriously, no sarcasm. But their scenario is infinetely easier to deal with than the US.

Norway
86.2% Norwegians
2% Sami
11.8% other

Afaik Norway is the most religious country in Scandinavia, but that isn't saying much as Atheism dominates this part of Europe. In Sweden we get signed into the church when we're born, which really screws up the numbers since no one can be arsed to sign out. Believe Norway have the same system.

USA
White 72.4%
Black/African American 12.6%
Asian 4.8%
American Indian and Alaska Native 0.9%
Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander 0.2%
Other 6.2%
Two or more races 2.9%
Hispanic/Latino (of any race) 16.3%

Not sure what you're trying to get at though.

you realize that, for example, white and asian have many many different cultural groups within right?

What i am getting at, is that US has hundreds of different groups with different cultures, religions, traditions, and ideology. Thousands of years of human history to draw upon for these groups to air grievances. Hell, in the news we see two sects of the same religion (sharing many many traits) killing each other in DROVES throughout the world.

It is a minor miracle that our country is not one large crater, if human nature is any indicator. because of this, a country that has very few groups has a much easier time dealing with crime (because there is less tension) than a country that has every single race, religion, and culture under the sun in one country.

I will admit though, that 72% seems a bit high, seeing how both hispanics and black are both poised to overtake white in the next 50 years. I thought white was closer to 60%.

 

[Chairman Miaow]

I'm not saying people can't change. I'm saying that somebody who has based their life on an ideology to the point where they will kill 70 people, more if he had his way, cannot change their belief in that ideology.

Edit: I have also said that I do respect the Norwegian system, and that it clearly works, just that this case is a wasted effort.

And that's a single snapshot of a single person's life.

We don't know what lead him to that point. We don't know where he goes from here. If such people are truly unchanging, then how did he get there in the first place? How is it possible for a man to change so that he's willing to kill 70 people, but not able to change such that he's remorseful about having killed 70 people?

So people can change for the worse but never the better?

I simply refuse to believe that. Change can work in both directions,

But, I suppose it's easier to believe that people cannot change. If such a person could be rehabilited then at some point the question of forgiveness must come up. And when you're talking about such a level of mass murder... forgiveness is a very hard thing to ask of anyone. It's hard to contemplate and is certainly not an easy choice.

When someone does something unforgivable I suppose believing they are irredeemable makes it a lot easier to swallow. I certainly can't fault anyone for having that view.

Ok, continue to tell me what I think and why I think it, that's cool.

 

[Frostbyte666]

Personally I'd say with his crime he bought his ticket out of the human race and if he wants to act like a rabid dog he should be put down like 1.

 

[Frostbyte666]

I'm not saying people can't change. I'm saying that somebody who has based their life on an ideology to the point where they will kill 70 people, more if he had his way, cannot change their belief in that ideology.

Edit: I have also said that I do respect the Norwegian system, and that it clearly works, just that this case is a wasted effort.

And that's a single snapshot of a single person's life.

We don't know what lead him to that point. We don't know where he goes from here. If such people are truly unchanging, then how did he get there in the first place? How is it possible for a man to change so that he's willing to kill 70 people, but not able to change such that he's remorseful about having killed 70 people?

So people can change for the worse but never the better?

I simply refuse to believe that. Change can work in both directions,

But, I suppose it's easier to believe that people cannot change. If such a person could be rehabilited then at some point the question of forgiveness must come up. And when you're talking about such a level of mass murder... forgiveness is a very hard thing to ask of anyone. It's hard to contemplate and is certainly not an easy choice.

When someone does something unforgivable I suppose believing they are irredeemable makes it a lot easier to swallow. I certainly can't fault anyone for having that view.

The problem I have with the above is that it focuses too much on redeeming the criminal and not enough on providing justice for the victims. Which I find is a huge problem with the law nowadays with good samaritans saying oh the guy was misunderstood and we should help him/redeem him/make him a better person while ignoring the corpses surrounding the guy and the grieving pain the victims loved ones are going through.

With your logic you could apply that to Hitler, Stalin and others for the many, many people they are responsible for killing. Does that mean they can't change for the better? No it doesn't, however why should they have that opportunity and understanding to change when they have taken the lives of so many others without a shred of the compassion or remorse you seem willing to give them.

 

[namhorFnodroG]

Well, I think it's okay. Sure, I would perhaps want him to be there a bit longer, but still. It's 21~ years, people can change in that long. He might will be a great guy by then, regretting what he did.

 

[dyre]

In reality he'll probably be locked away forever, but if the Norwegian system only allows 21 years to be given at the beginning of the sentence, then good on them for upholding their legal system on not acting like revenge-obsessed idiots and demanding his execution.

 

[DracoSuave]

I'm not saying people can't change. I'm saying that somebody who has based their life on an ideology to the point where they will kill 70 people, more if he had his way, cannot change their belief in that ideology.

Edit: I have also said that I do respect the Norwegian system, and that it clearly works, just that this case is a wasted effort.

And that's a single snapshot of a single person's life.

We don't know what lead him to that point. We don't know where he goes from here. If such people are truly unchanging, then how did he get there in the first place? How is it possible for a man to change so that he's willing to kill 70 people, but not able to change such that he's remorseful about having killed 70 people?

So people can change for the worse but never the better?

I simply refuse to believe that. Change can work in both directions,

But, I suppose it's easier to believe that people cannot change. If such a person could be rehabilited then at some point the question of forgiveness must come up. And when you're talking about such a level of mass murder... forgiveness is a very hard thing to ask of anyone. It's hard to contemplate and is certainly not an easy choice.

When someone does something unforgivable I suppose believing they are irredeemable makes it a lot easier to swallow. I certainly can't fault anyone for having that view.

The problem I have with the above is that it focuses too much on redeeming the criminal and not enough on providing justice for the victims. Which I find is a huge problem with the law nowadays with good samaritans saying oh the guy was misunderstood and we should help him/redeem him/make him a better person while ignoring the corpses surrounding the guy and the grieving pain the victims loved ones are going through.

With your logic you could apply that to Hitler, Stalin and others for the many, many people they are responsible for killing. Does that mean they can't change for the better? No it doesn't, however why should they have that opportunity and understanding to change when they have taken the lives of so many others without a shred of the compassion or remorse you seem willing to give them.

It's not about being a good samaritan. It's about looking at what makes society better.

Justice doesn't stop further robberies. Justice doesn't stop the drug problem. Justice doesn't stop muggings, raping. Justice doesn't seek to stop crimes... it only seeks to punish crime.

Rehabilitation DOES stop further robberies, further rape, further mugging. The whole POINT is to prevent recidivism.

What's better--the victims get more justice, or there's less victims? Which is a better functioning society? One where you can be assured that if you get stabbed, they'll pay and pay and pay.... or one where you can be assured you won't get stabbed?

Which is the better society?

 

[DracoSuave]

I'm not saying people can't change. I'm saying that somebody who has based their life on an ideology to the point where they will kill 70 people, more if he had his way, cannot change their belief in that ideology.

Edit: I have also said that I do respect the Norwegian system, and that it clearly works, just that this case is a wasted effort.

And that's a single snapshot of a single person's life.

We don't know what lead him to that point. We don't know where he goes from here. If such people are truly unchanging, then how did he get there in the first place? How is it possible for a man to change so that he's willing to kill 70 people, but not able to change such that he's remorseful about having killed 70 people?

So people can change for the worse but never the better?

I simply refuse to believe that. Change can work in both directions,

But, I suppose it's easier to believe that people cannot change. If such a person could be rehabilited then at some point the question of forgiveness must come up. And when you're talking about such a level of mass murder... forgiveness is a very hard thing to ask of anyone. It's hard to contemplate and is certainly not an easy choice.

When someone does something unforgivable I suppose believing they are irredeemable makes it a lot easier to swallow. I certainly can't fault anyone for having that view.

Ok, continue to tell me what I think and why I think it, that's cool.

Doesn't make me wrong, does it?