Obama is a Fascist and a Communist?

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BlumiereBleck

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Kinguendo said:
Skullkid4187 said:
"pwned" Is hardly the word. Now I've been up against many democrats who ALWAYS see themselves as the "smart ones" And you are no different. What you lack is the ability to see the world in someone elses eyes. My reasons why he is a fascist and communist (two ideas that are not different). 1. the only helping of one type of social class, "middle class first" if you recall was his slogan. Now why middle class? Why not lower class? Or even Upper class? The choosing of one class and then only support that class is a form of communism(minus the deleting of all other classes so they can say they have no classes) 2. The taxes being put on Upper Class....now I think we all remember what happened in 1919. 3. Many clueless supporters who forgot all the things that he and his buddies at acorn did. 3 reasons seems fair enough. Oh and if you actually watched Fox News, stopped watching family guy, talked to some manual labor workers, business man or woman, or just people who care about their country you might find out that Republicans aren't evil and you'll realize that you are quite ignorant for slandering something you know nothing about. Now any continuation of this "debate" would be meaningless, so lets just walk away before we both get banned.
"pwned" is precisely the word... why? Because my points still stands even after you had your say. Oh and I am different from other Democrats, that being I am not a Democrat... I am British, even the slightest bit of research would have revealed to you that I am British BUT I guess knowing of what you speak isnt your forte.

Oh and the reason why "Middle Class first" is because the Middle Class is the majority of people in America, unlike the Republicans who represent the upper class while manipulating the working class and some middle class people.

And really? Trying to change definitions of words to fit your points, changing facts because the facts at the moment are far too "liberal" are you?

Also I have seen FOX "news", you see unlike you I actualy base my opinions on my own experiences.

Oh and one final point, ACORN were found innocent of any claims made against them and the guy that actually did that report on them got arrested... OH NOES! Reality is once again not on your side.
Well if you're british what the hell are you doing in American Politics? 1. Republicans represent all classes and this whole "middle class first" creates a even bigger division of social classes both leaving out Upper and Lower. Also manipulating is not the right word. It's the Peoples choice to pick their own party, they chose it because that's what they see is best for MY country. And a giant HA to your "definition rewriting" I'm sorry if the dictionary and historical references are different on your end, and lastly. You have no idea what anyone is going through here who is facing poverty and lose of jobs because of obama. Oh and stay out of American Politics it's POINTLESS for you to even talk about it.
 

Kinguendo

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Skullkid4187 said:
Well if you're british what the hell are you doing in American Politics? 1. Republicans represent all classes and this whole "middle class first" creates a even bigger division of social classes both leaving out Upper and Lower. Also manipulating is not the right word. It's the Peoples choice to pick their own party, they chose it because that's what they see is best for MY country. And a giant HA to your "definition rewriting" I'm sorry if the dictionary and historical references are different on your end, and lastly. You have no idea what anyone is going through here who is facing poverty and lose of jobs because of obama. Oh and stay out of American Politics it's POINTLESS for you to even talk about it.
Well, as an outsider I had to learn from the ground up and I wasnt raised with any particular American party so I didnt have this sports team-esque attachment that you do to your political parties. I had to learn what each party has done and currently is doing, so my opinion is actually far more educated than most on the topic of American Politics.

And manipulated is EXACTLY the right word once again, both parties lie BUT the Republicans are much better at it and are also bullies so when a Republican lie comes up against a Democrats lie the Democrats back down most of the time... not because either is right but because the Democrats are cowards and the Republicans are bullies.

Erm, noooo. You are picking and choosing segments of political ideologies and saying that these segments are representative of the entire ideology and therefore can be fixed to a political figure if they do one of the things in a certain ideology which is bullshit. Many ideologies share some of the same principles so you cant take one small part and say that someone is a communist because of it. However supporting ONE class over others is not communist at all, supporting NO class is communist... you even said it yourself then proceeded to warp it to fit what you already said.

Also, you cant blame Obama for the job losses as all that crap started to happen as Bush was getting ready to leave... all you are trying to do is say a problem clearly caused by the party you support that started to happen whilst your party was in power is a Democrats fault because he couldnt suddenly stop it happening once it started. Just admit it, you are a racist... racist exist and they are muc more likely to join the Republican party anyway so it isnt like you are the only one. I would respect you more if you were being truthful to me... and most of all you could be truthful to yourself.
 

Danny Ocean

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Skullkid4187 said:
1. The only helping of one type of social class, "middle class first" if you recall was his slogan. Now why middle class? Why not lower class? Or even Upper class? The choosing of one class and then only support that class is a form of communism
Justify the following assertions:

1. He did in fact pledge to put the "Middle Class First". Source Please.

2. You make the jump from "Putting one class first" to "Only Supporting That Class". Can you explain your logic for me there?

3. Can you provide evidence for the assertion that choosing and then supporting only one class is a form of communism?

When has the upper class ever needed support? Isn't that one of the defining features of being upper class?

2. The taxes being put on Upper Class....now I think we all remember what happened in 1919.
What? What exactly are you referring to?

Oh and if you actually watched Fox News, stopped watching family guy, talked to some manual labor workers, business man or woman, or just people who care about their country you might find out that Republicans aren't evil and you'll realize that you are quite ignorant for slandering something you know nothing about. Now any continuation of this "debate" would be meaningless, so lets just walk away before we both get banned.
So the Republican votes mainly come from Labour workers, and business people? Interesting. I'll bear that in mind for my studies. The Republicans win votes from the Lower and Upper classes, while the Democrats must therefore win votes from the middle class.

I love how you assume that these people care about their country, when, if you actually ask the equivalent lower classes in the UK, at least, their only concern is their next pay cheque. The same applies to the upper class.

There are exceptions, of course, but even within my limited experience of life and the people I have met, that rules of thumb seem to hold true. A growth of a middle class was one of the most important, if not the most important, catalyst for social change here in the UK and across the world, at least as far as I know.

Edit: Nevermind, this guy's done it far better than I can.

Kinguendo said:
 

Lyri

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andrew21 said:
Wizzie said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUPMjC9mq5Y&feature=channel

are these your friends op?
I love the part where the kid says "we didn't vote for this health care..." When
1) he doesnt really look/ sound old enough to vote and
2) wasn't the health care thing on his platform?
My favourite line of his.

"I'm out here for....the tax, I mean he's raising the taxes like crazy we need freedom. We didn't vote for this healthcare that he planned".

Bouncing from point to point.
 

Kinguendo

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Dormin111 said:
I guess you didn't read my other posts. Direct control is socialist, directive control is fascist.
IF you are using the Anarcho-Capitalists deifnition of Fascism then you could argue that IF Obama were strictly regulating corporations and taxing them highly... which he isnt. And the only reason Anarcho-Capitalists say that is the definition is because the other definition of Fascism doesnt exactly paint Anarcho-Capitalism in a good light.

Here are the 9 fundamental charecteristics of Fascism:

1.Right Wing: Fascists are fervently against: Marxism, Socialism, Anarchism, Communism, Environmentalism; etc ? in essence, they are against the progressive left in total, including moderate lefts (social democrats, etc). Fascism is an extreme right wing ideology, though it can be opportunistic.

2.Nationalism: Fascism places a very strong emphasis on patriotism and nationalism. Criticism of the nation's main ideals, especially war, is lambasted as unpatriotic at best, and treason at worst. State propaganda consistently broadcasts threats of attack, while justifying pre-emptive war. Fascism invariably seeks to instill in its people the warrior mentality: to always be vigilant, wary of strangers and suspicious of foreigners.

3.Hierarchy: Fascist society is ruled by a righteous leader, who is supported by an elite secret vanguard of capitalists. Hierarchy is prevalent throughout all aspects of society ? every street, every workplace, every school, will have its local Hitler, part police-informer, part bureaucrat ? and society is prepared for war at all times. The absolute power of the social hierarchy prevails over everything, and thus a totalitarian society is formed. Representative government is acceptable only if it can be controlled and regulated, direct democracy (e.g. Communism) is the greatest of all crimes. Any who oppose the social hierarchy of fascism will be imprisoned or executed.

4.Anti-equality: Fascism loathes the principles of economic equality and disdains equality between immigrant and citizen. Some forms of fascism extend the fight against equality into other areas: gender, sexual, minority or religious rights, for example.

5.Religious: Fascism contains a strong amount of reactionary religious beliefs, harking back to times when religion was strict, potent, and pure. Nearly all Fascist societies are Christian, and are supported by Catholic and Protestant churches.

6.Capitalist: Fascism does not require revolution to exist in captialist society: fascists can be elected into office (though their disdain for elections usually means manipulation of the electoral system). They view parliamentary and congressional systems of government to be inefficient and weak, and will do their best to minimize its power over their policy agenda. Fascism exhibits the worst kind of capitalism where corporate power is absolute, and all vestiges of workers' rights are destroyed.

7.War: Fascism is capitalism at the stage of impotent imperialism. War can create markets that would not otherwise exist by wreaking massive devastation on a society, which then requires reconstruction! Fascism can thus "liberate" the survivors, provide huge loans to that society so fascist corporations can begin the process of rebuilding.

8.Voluntarist Ideology: Fascism adopts a certain kind of ?voluntarism;? they believe that an act of will, if sufficiently powerful, can make something true. Thus all sorts of ideas about racial inferiority, historical destiny, even physical science, are supported by means of violence, in the belief that they can be made true. It is this sense that Fascism is subjectivist.

9.Anti-Modern: Fascism loathes all kinds of modernism, especially creativity in the arts, whether acting as a mirror for life (where it does not conform to the Fascist ideal), or expressing deviant or innovative points of view. Fascism invariably burns books and victimises artists, and artists which do not promote the fascists ideals are seen as ?decadent.? Fascism is hostile to broad learning and interest in other cultures, since such pursuits threaten the dominance of fascist myths. The peddling of conspiracy theories is usually substituted for the objective study of history.

Pay very close attention to number 6 because that does say very specifically "corporate power is absolute". However, under NO ONES definition of Fascism does it say if a company screws up and damages millions of peoples lively hoods then you should make them compensate the people you hurt. Thats the ONLY thing Obama has FORCED any company to do, and that certainly isnt fascist.
 

BlumiereBleck

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Kinguendo said:
Skullkid4187 said:
Well if you're british what the hell are you doing in American Politics? 1. Republicans represent all classes and this whole "middle class first" creates a even bigger division of social classes both leaving out Upper and Lower. Also manipulating is not the right word. It's the Peoples choice to pick their own party, they chose it because that's what they see is best for MY country. And a giant HA to your "definition rewriting" I'm sorry if the dictionary and historical references are different on your end, and lastly. You have no idea what anyone is going through here who is facing poverty and lose of jobs because of obama. Oh and stay out of American Politics it's POINTLESS for you to even talk about it.
Well, as an outsider I had to learn from the ground up and I wasnt raised with any particular American party so I didnt have this sports team-esque attachment that you do to your political parties. I had to learn what each party has done and currently is doing, so my opinion is actually far more educated than most on the topic of American Politics.

And manipulated is EXACTLY the right word once again, both parties lie BUT the Republicans are much better at it and are also bullies so when a Republican lie comes up against a Democrats lie the Democrats back down most of the time... not because either is right but because the Democrats are cowards and the Republicans are bullies.

Erm, noooo. You are picking and choosing segments of political ideologies and saying that these segments are representative of the entire ideology and therefore can be fixed to a political figure if they do one of the things in a certain ideology which is bullshit. Many ideologies share some of the same principles so you cant take one small part and say that someone is a communist because of it. However supporting ONE class over others is not communist at all, supporting NO class is communist... you even said it yourself then proceeded to warp it to fit what you already said.

Also, you cant blame Obama for the job losses as all that crap started to happen as Bush was getting ready to leave... all you are trying to do is say a problem clearly caused by the party you support that started to happen whilst your party was in power is a Democrats fault because he couldnt suddenly stop it happening once it started. Just admit it, you are a racist... racist exist and they are muc more likely to join the Republican party anyway so it isnt like you are the only one. I would respect you more if you were being truthful to me... and most of all you could be truthful to yourself.
Its not my fault that if there is only one class it can be called classless. Cowards and Bullies? Prove to me that they are bullies and what are all these "lies" that you keep saying they make up? The banks aren't George W. Bush, to many people place the blame on George for something that he had no control of. If you even know how the Economic Collapse started then you would be blaming the World Leaders in the 1920's(That's right events piled up and all lead to the new bank loan plans) Again you go there with ignorance and assumptions, it is not racist at all, if thats your only assumption on why I hate him you are mistaken. I choose my party from research, moral vaules and common sense. And it all comes down to that I choose what I want you need to learn to live with it or forever be ignorant
 

Booze Zombie

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I never understood the negative connotations of being a Communist, really.

"You want to give to everyone... how evil."

Anyway, no, he can't be both and he isn't either.
 

Cody211282

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hawkeye52 said:
well hes better then bush
That's like saying Stalin was better then Hitler, as far as I'm concerned they are both horrible.

I don't think he is a commie, but he is defently a socialist and probably the whineyest president we have ever had.
 

Kinguendo

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Dormin111 said:
I agree with all of those except 6. Fascism is not capitlist except maybe in the lossest form. Rather it is a system where government control overshadows all ecopnomic and property rights, usually in the form of government orders or directives. I was specifically reffering to the healthcare reform in which Obama is forcing insurance companies to pay for a certain age bracket. This is government directive interference in the private market and could be considered a fascist economic policy.
Doesnt matter if you agree with it, thats like me thinking a square is a 3 sided shape... then when someone proves that a square is actually 4 sided, I say "I agree with all of that... except the 4 sided part.".

Like I said, the only group that define Fascism as ANYTHING even remotely close to what you are saying is the small and insignificant group known as "Anarcho-Capitalists" and thats because they dont want capitalism (part of their ideology) to be associated with Fascism. And even they dont define it like you are, they say they place strict regulations on private companies (which Obama most certainly hasnt) and increase taxation on private business' to the extent that they get the most out of the private business (which, once again, Obama hasnt done). And the problem with this definition is that it is not a reflection of any of the fascist regimes we have seen, so your definition of "Fascism" is presumably made by and held by you. Fascism is a corporatists wet dream and a capitalists last grasp for power.
 

Kinguendo

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Skullkid4187 said:
Its not my fault that if there is only one class it can be called classless. Cowards and Bullies? Prove to me that they are bullies and what are all these "lies" that you keep saying they make up? The banks aren't George W. Bush, to many people place the blame on George for something that he had no control of. If you even know how the Economic Collapse started then you would be blaming the World Leaders in the 1920's(That's right events piled up and all lead to the new bank loan plans) Again you go there with ignorance and assumptions, it is not racist at all, if thats your only assumption on why I hate him you are mistaken. I choose my party from research, moral vaules and common sense. And it all comes down to that I choose what I want you need to learn to live with it or forever be ignorant
You know I have seen MANY people argue these points and I have seen people blame tons of thigns including this you are saying now, despite the fact you were JUST saying it was Obamas fault... so, yeah thats pretty much all I have to say. You should really back up your accusations of ignorance with facts rather than "Keep your nose out of it Brit!", if you are going to accuse ME of ignorance then dont provide ME with evidence of you being ignorant of your own statements. I mean come on, remembering what you just said isnt difficult and you cant just completely change your opinion and expect everyone to forget what you just said as well.

Just in case you truly cant remember what you said heres a quote: "facing poverty and lose of jobs because of obama" <You quite clearly blaming Obama.
 

tsb247

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hawkeye52 said:
well hes better then bush
He's actually not too much different; worse in some ways.

Gitmo is still open, rendition is still a common practice, more troops were sent to war...

John Stewart does a good job of summing it up.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-june-15-2010/respect-my-authoritah
 

cmstewart87

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Dormin111 said:
One could argue that it is fascist to order corporations around through federal directives.
And one could say that without the federal directives we'd all be scammed out of our money because of corrupt corporations.
 

skitzo van

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I'm just a fourteen year old kid, so could someone please explain what are the principles of communism and facism?
OT: This is why I don't watch the news, most of it is made to get a rise out of people.
 

tsb247

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InterAirplay said:
jdun said:
The only difference between Fascist and Communist is: Fascist is to the left and Communist is to the far left.
Massive no.
Actually, jdun is right, but only partly. Facism is defined as follows:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Fascism

On the political spectrum, they oppose each other, but on the European spectrum, they both full under the same category of, "Authoritarian." In other words, they both seek VERY strict government control over everything - usually by what can be considered a dictator.

And then there is left-wing fascism...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_fascism

From Wiki:

"left-wing fascism in the United States consists of a denial or rejection of the American democracy, and devotion to socialism that is merely an idealized abstraction, combined with an unwillingness to confront the actual history of communism. It operates through mystified language, attributes faults "everywhere and always in an imperial conspiracy of wealth, power or status," and uses anti-Semitism as a pseudo-populist tool to create a focal point for hatred."

It's important to note that the racism need not neccessarily be present.

And to be honest, the previous definition of left-wing fascism reminds me a little of Obama.
 

Jumpingbean3

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Demon ID said:
He's also a hitler and a Muslim, it's all very strange really. Him being called a Muslim is where I start to get angry though, starts to make you really wonder about some people.
Funny because him being called Hitler is the point where I laugh my arse off, explain Godwin's Law ( http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?GodwinsLaw ) and decide not to listen to them anymore.
 

Atmos Duality

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Kinguendo said:
Pay very close attention to number 6 because that does say very specifically "corporate power is absolute". However, under NO ONES definition of Fascism does it say if a company screws up and damages millions of peoples lively hoods then you should make them compensate the people you hurt. Thats the ONLY thing Obama has FORCED any company to do, and that certainly isnt fascist.
Good list. I applaud the clarity of your definitions.

And ironically, people criticized him for not immediately condemning the incident when It isn't his fucking job.

He is our Commander in Chief, and part of our country's face to the rest of the world.
His job is not to just wag a finger at whatever CNN says he should.

The oil leak disaster is immense, yes, but I literally sighed as hard as I can remember when people complained about his policy towards that.

People, the President is not the King of America; stop blaming him for things that aren't related to him or his job. He is not a fascist. He is not a communist. For every "evil law" he has proposed for our country, I can think of one from any previous president in my lifetime.
It shows just how immature our country is when we're still bitching about how much melanin people have/don't have in the 21st century.

Obama is as much the USA's savior as he is our first "Hitler".

This is why I hate politics. All it amounts to is a bunch of flies in suits all fighting over the same pile of bullshit.

TLDR; rants ahoy. Just ignore it.
 

tsb247

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Kinguendo said:
Dormin111 said:
I guess you didn't read my other posts. Direct control is socialist, directive control is fascist.
IF you are using the Anarcho-Capitalists deifnition of Fascism then you could argue that IF Obama were strictly regulating corporations and taxing them highly... which he isnt. And the only reason Anarcho-Capitalists say that is the definition is because the other definition of Fascism doesnt exactly paint Anarcho-Capitalism in a good light.

Here are the 9 fundamental charecteristics of Fascism:

1.Right Wing: Fascists are fervently against: Marxism, Socialism, Anarchism, Communism, Environmentalism; etc ? in essence, they are against the progressive left in total, including moderate lefts (social democrats, etc). Fascism is an extreme right wing ideology, though it can be opportunistic.

2.Nationalism: Fascism places a very strong emphasis on patriotism and nationalism. Criticism of the nation's main ideals, especially war, is lambasted as unpatriotic at best, and treason at worst. State propaganda consistently broadcasts threats of attack, while justifying pre-emptive war. Fascism invariably seeks to instill in its people the warrior mentality: to always be vigilant, wary of strangers and suspicious of foreigners.

3.Hierarchy: Fascist society is ruled by a righteous leader, who is supported by an elite secret vanguard of capitalists. Hierarchy is prevalent throughout all aspects of society ? every street, every workplace, every school, will have its local Hitler, part police-informer, part bureaucrat ? and society is prepared for war at all times. The absolute power of the social hierarchy prevails over everything, and thus a totalitarian society is formed. Representative government is acceptable only if it can be controlled and regulated, direct democracy (e.g. Communism) is the greatest of all crimes. Any who oppose the social hierarchy of fascism will be imprisoned or executed.

4.Anti-equality: Fascism loathes the principles of economic equality and disdains equality between immigrant and citizen. Some forms of fascism extend the fight against equality into other areas: gender, sexual, minority or religious rights, for example.

5.Religious: Fascism contains a strong amount of reactionary religious beliefs, harking back to times when religion was strict, potent, and pure. Nearly all Fascist societies are Christian, and are supported by Catholic and Protestant churches.

6.Capitalist: Fascism does not require revolution to exist in captialist society: fascists can be elected into office (though their disdain for elections usually means manipulation of the electoral system). They view parliamentary and congressional systems of government to be inefficient and weak, and will do their best to minimize its power over their policy agenda. Fascism exhibits the worst kind of capitalism where corporate power is absolute, and all vestiges of workers' rights are destroyed.

7.War: Fascism is capitalism at the stage of impotent imperialism. War can create markets that would not otherwise exist by wreaking massive devastation on a society, which then requires reconstruction! Fascism can thus "liberate" the survivors, provide huge loans to that society so fascist corporations can begin the process of rebuilding.

8.Voluntarist Ideology: Fascism adopts a certain kind of ?voluntarism;? they believe that an act of will, if sufficiently powerful, can make something true. Thus all sorts of ideas about racial inferiority, historical destiny, even physical science, are supported by means of violence, in the belief that they can be made true. It is this sense that Fascism is subjectivist.

9.Anti-Modern: Fascism loathes all kinds of modernism, especially creativity in the arts, whether acting as a mirror for life (where it does not conform to the Fascist ideal), or expressing deviant or innovative points of view. Fascism invariably burns books and victimises artists, and artists which do not promote the fascists ideals are seen as ?decadent.? Fascism is hostile to broad learning and interest in other cultures, since such pursuits threaten the dominance of fascist myths. The peddling of conspiracy theories is usually substituted for the objective study of history.

Pay very close attention to number 6 because that does say very specifically "corporate power is absolute". However, under NO ONES definition of Fascism does it say if a company screws up and damages millions of peoples lively hoods then you should make them compensate the people you hurt. Thats the ONLY thing Obama has FORCED any company to do, and that certainly isnt fascist.
Your definition of fascism is very flawed. I would like to see a credible source for all of those points. Point number six isstands out to me the most. Your entire argument seems hinged on the notion that capitalism is the cause for a fascist state. You could not possible be more wrong.

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/GLOSSARY/CAPITAL.HTM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

Tell me, do you see a single mention of the word, "Fascist," or, "Fascism," on either of these pages?

Now we'll try this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

If you seach for, "Capitalism," on this page, you will find something interesting. Fascist states do two of the following:

1. absorb a capitalist system into the scope of the government's power (thus eliminating it in favor of, "State Corporatism," which is akin to socialism in the sense that the state controls economic growth and other forms of commerce.

from the wiki:

"Fascists opposed laissez-faire economic policies dominant in the era prior to the Great Depression.[268] After the Great Depression began, many people from across the political spectrum blamed laissez-faire capitalism for the Great Depression, and fascists promoted their ideology as a "third way" between capitalism and communism.[269]

Fascists declared their opposition to finance capitalism, interest charging, and profiteering.[270] Nazis and other anti-Semitic fascists considered finance capitalism a "parasitic" "Jewish conspiracy".[271] Fascist governments nationalized some key industries, managed their currencies and made some massive state investments.[citation needed] They introduced price controls, wage controls and other types of economic interventionist measures.[272]"

2. Blam capitalism for the problems in society and then blame communism for exploiting them.

From the wiki again:

"Fascism blamed capitalist liberal democracies for creating class conflict and communists for exploiting it.[255] In Italy, the Fascist period presided over the creation of the largest number of state-owned enterprises in Western Europe such as the nationalisation of petroleum companies into a single state enterprise called the Italian General Agency for Petroleum (Azienda Generale Italiani Petroli, AGIP).[256] Fascists made populist appeals to the middle class (especially the lower middle class) by promising to protect small business and small property owners from communism, and by promising an economy based on competition and profit while pledging to oppose big business.[254]"