Obama Wins!! (moderator supported thread)

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Samirat

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May 22, 2008
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BallPtPenTheif said:
Cheeze_Pavilion said:
BallPtPenTheif said:
1) Wrong.. most politicians no matter their party touted the importance of home ownership since it was an ideology put forward by Greenspan. That's why pointing the finger at either side is naive and partisan. All of Congress botched this up and both parties ultimately supported the bail out, complete with pork.
Then why did it cause a meltdown now? The Democrats encouraged it with the Community Reinvestment Act, which has been around since 1977. The Bush Zero Down Payment Initiative has been around since 2004. If you think the meltdown has to do with 'politicians pushing home ownership' (HINT: it had nothing to do with it, it's all the other stuff you mentioned), doesn't it seem Democrats did it in a responsible manner, and Republicans didn't?



2) Wrong... from wiki, "ACORN, the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, is a community-based organization that advocates for low- and moderate-income families by working on neighborhood safety, voter registration, health care, affordable housing, and other social issues."
"advocates" =/= strong arm.
um, yeah... that was a wiki quote that used the term "advocates", not my words. you're initial point was that all they did was voter registration which wasn't true. and it's good to see that you finally agree that the broken economy was a group effort and not just a republican issue.

oh, and the economy collapsed now because the shit eventually hit the fan. you should be blaming the shit thrower though, not the guy currently holding the fan. Bush fucked up a lot of things but he's not smart enough to know how to fuck up a global economy.
You don't have to know how to fuck up the global economy. If you have as much power as the United States president, all you have to not know is how to keep it stable to send things downhill. Not saying it was his fault. This kind of recession is natural to a capitalistic system. It's a combination of a lot of factors, with Bush's policies among them. But claiming that it can't be Bush's fault because he wouldn't be able to do it if he tried is ludicrous. He just might be able to do it if he didn't try.

EDIT: And yeah, if you're going to cite sources, make sure they agree with you. Cheeze is right. Your quote from the wiki says "advocates," whereas you say "strong arms." They aren't the same thing. You have no support for that assertion.
 

sms_117b

Keeper of Brannigan's Law
Oct 4, 2007
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I bet the next UK election doesn't get this much press coverage worldwide
 

Samirat

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May 22, 2008
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sms_117b said:
I bet the next UK election doesn't get this much press coverage worldwide
That's because UK elections don't have presidents (a single big election), come at random times, and are fairly predictable as to who is going to win.
 

BallPtPenTheif

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Jun 11, 2008
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Samirat said:
You don't have to know how to fuck up the global economy. If you have as much power as the United States president, all you have to not know is how to keep it stable to send things downhill. Not saying it was his fault. This kind of recession is natural to a capitalistic system. It's a combination of a lot of factors, with Bush's policies among them. But claiming that it can't be Bush's fault because he wouldn't be able to do it if he tried is ludicrous. He just might be able to do it if he didn't try.

EDIT: And yeah, if you're going to cite sources, make sure they agree with you. Cheeze is right. Your quote from the wiki says "advocates," whereas you say "strong arms." They aren't the same thing. You have no support for that assertion.
I'm tired of these mythical dellusions of presidential powers. Be specific, which executive powers did Bush use in order to cause or contribute to this debacle? And don't give me any nonsense about things he "should have done" since that's just hindsight wisdom. Tell me what exactly he did.

Your last point is tangental and irrelevant... sorry it is. We can go back and forth quoting articles of Acorn's actions but that's not the point here. He was wrong about what Acorn does... that was the point and on that point Wiki and Acorns own website is in agreeance with me. Addittionally, when I used the term "strong arm" I was referring to Acorns racially loaded protests where they claimed that certain banks and lending insitutions were being racist in their refusal to give loans to certain people.

(Please don't respond with how you don't feel protesting is strong arming while ignoring the race baiting aspect of my statement. I know how this works and though I don't mind discussing the primary misunderstanding of what Acorn is, I'm not in this thread to debate semantics.)
 

santaandy

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Sep 26, 2008
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I think the Democrats are still more to blame. Here's why:

Ford ignored inflation, rand budget deficits every year, and raised taxes, which almost bankrupted NYC. He wouldn't bail them out. Carter appointed Volcker chairman of the Federal Reserve Board who raised the prime interest rate to a height of over 21% in 1980, whilst still spending more for the creation of federal social programs. The Carter administration was also involved in near-0% interest financing for foreign investors (now, now, don't run off on me) while then-current Americans faced 20%!

Reagan, a Republican, cut regulation, spending, and taxes, and put a control on the money supply. The Republicans are not entirely blameless, however, as deficits were not controlled, speclating that because of this George Bush Sr. had to reneg on his "read my lips" quote and raise taxes again. But Papa Bush faced a *Democratic controlled congress* going in, as Bush wanted to cut spending but the Dems wouldn't allow it without a tax increase, which Daddy B promised he wouldn't do. He was forced to by the Dem congress, which lead to a combo-tax hike-and-spending cut bill that would have cut the deficit by $500b in 5 years being subject to a Republican smackdown. Bush I then had to captiulate to a *Democratic* led plan to raise taxes *and* spending, thus pushing forward a growing crisis. Bush again tried to resist a Dem plan to raise the marginal tax rate and cut exemptions for the wealthy, but failed. B-man did however increase social program spending during a poor economic time. The net effect of all plans during capital B's administration left us with almost 8% unemployment and over 14% poverty.

Back to the Dem's presidency, Clinton actually did some good for the economy, final putting a combo tax hike-and-spend cut bill through, with Republicans (to their discredit) fighting it tooth and nail to an eventual loss. In 1998 we saw our first surplus since 1969, and a surplus again in 99 and 00. The 90s continued to be a period of growth. Republicans fought Clinton on every tax issue, pushing trough cust for the wealthy, which Clinton was able to match with cuts for the poor. The Dems were finally responsible for increasing growth and decreasing inflation, unemployment, and poverty. People got jobs and got off welfare.

Then Dems did it again by enacting legislation such as NAFTA, which were intended to spread economic benefit (and did) but allowed it to come at the expense of the American economy. A lowering of barriers made it possible for foreign products to replace American ones, and foreign jobs to be chosen over American ones. (See: "They... took... mah... JAHB!!!," "Tukyerjab!!!," and "Derk-a-derb!!!") Clinton also signed a landmark trade agreement with China, which has been problematic since it's inception. This internationalization effort was a particular bitchslap since Dems traditionally back labor unions, but abandoned them in favor of globalization.

Then Dubya, the man, the myth, the legend, comes along. He cut taxes across the board, but increased tax complexity to American detriment. Lil' Bush also increased spending (especially militarily), thus widening the gap again and increasing deficits. Bush was also inconsistent on his international trade policy. Both Dems and Reps would suffer from financial scandals during the Bush II era. The financial crisis over the home scandal is certainly not all one party or another, but more Dems than Reps were responsible for taking money from Freddie and Fannie and stifling republican criticism and Ron Paul's bill to fix it.

I will not discuss Obama since he hasn't been inaugurated yet. It wouldn't be fair to accuse him of something he hasn't yet done, let alone had the chance to.

---

I purposely left out non-economic issues as the biggest mess is the economy, and that's where Democratic subversion shows through the most. But don't think I'm not willing to blame Republicans too, it's just Reps tried to do something about it and Dems didn't.

Both parties are guilty of a vast number of governmental atrocities. Personally, I think we should round up both Dems *and* Reps and have them all shot, Soviet-style, and give all the mistreaten third parties a chance. (Okay, so maybe not literally execute them, I'm not a murderer)

Non-violently clearing out the parties that have dominated politics since the 1800's and have gotten so big that they are squelching independent (not necessarily Independent) thought would be nothing but good for this country. It's time we give the parties that the D/R both ignore and hamstring at every opportunity a chance. And that's change *I* can believe in!
 

Simalacrum

Resident Juggler
Apr 17, 2008
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somehow i can't help but actually feel optimistic now that Obama is president... as an Englishman thats saying something

all i can do now is hope that he keeps to at least some of his promises made...
 

BallPtPenTheif

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Jun 11, 2008
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Cheeze_Pavilion said:
The Constitution preserves state authority to protect its residents when federal statutes don't explicitly bar such regulation, Michigan contended. Ken Ross, the state's top financial regulator, says his department fought Wachovia all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court in part because it feared a growing subprime mortgage problem: "We knew there needed to be [state] regulation in place or there could be gaps." The OCC, he adds, "did not have robust regulatory provisions over these operating subsidiaries."

The nation's highest court sided with the Bush Administration, ruling in April 2007 that the OCC had exclusive authority over Wachovia Mortgage.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27121535/
So the Federal Court upholds preemption and Bush, a republican, doesn't believe in regulating the market... what's you're point here?

Oh, and I like how you seemed to ommitt this, "Hawke, a veteran banking industry lawyer appointed to head the OCC by President Bill Clinton in 1998, wouldn't budge." Both parties are culpable it's just odd to me that some people are so pro one side that they can skew blame to inconsistent degrees. Oh, Clinton pushed for lowered home lending practices... PASS... Bush fails to reign in Clinton's efforts even though he agrees with Clinton.. FAIL...

wtf
 

BallPtPenTheif

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Jun 11, 2008
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Simalacrum said:
somehow i can't help but actually feel optimistic now that Obama is president... as an Englishman thats saying something

all i can do now is hope that he keeps to at least some of his promises made...
I know huh? Articulate educated people for the win!

As for the promises, no way in hell. People seem to misunderstand the powers of the presidency and Presidential Nominees are usually more than happy to accomodate those dellusional misconceptions. He basically promised the moon and all we're going to get is a new budget proposal, new staffing, US soldiers in Iraq will now probably be referred to as "International Peace Keepers" (no more soldiers in Iraq.. wink wink), some bizarre civil service programs, maybe a new "New Deal", inflation, prolonged recession, another bail out plan, oh and all us poor people are going to get some fat check to blow on Doritos and videogames.
 

Zeke109

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Jul 10, 2008
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I, personally, consider myself extremely lucky to be able to witness the first multi-racial president in U.S. history. If you don't like Obama, at least take pride in the fact that you were able to see a history-making event, even if Obama's grammy died the day before the election...
*sniff.....its so tragic...*
 

BallPtPenTheif

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Jun 11, 2008
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Cheeze_Pavilion said:
Um, the Federal Courts are not sheriffs. They don't go riding around looking for cases. If the OCC had agreed with the state officials, there would have been no case before the courts.
I didn't say they agreed... we are way off track here. Is this really the ground zero where you think the economic collapse started?

Seriously? Are you putting this much focus into this moment in time out of all the other factors that contributed to this economic crisis?
 

PatientGrasshopper

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Nov 2, 2008
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I would have supported McCain but through the course of this election cycle learned I was a true constitutionalist/ Conservative Libertarian and didn't vote for either of those losers.
That being said Obama will ruin us.
Zeke109 said:
I, personally, consider myself extremely lucky to be able to witness the first multi-racial president in U.S. history. If you don't like Obama, at least take pride in the fact that you were able to see a history-making event, even if Obama's grammy died the day before the election...
*sniff.....its so tragic...*
Yea but he is as white as he is black.
Also the Granny he called an racist white lady, oh the love.
 

cainx10a

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May 17, 2008
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Ivoryagent said:
JMeganSnow said:
One of my blog friends linked to this hilarious Onion video [http://www.theonion.com/content/video/obama_win_causes_obsessive] and I just had to pass it along.
Hilarious.

How to kill a Obama-supporter: Shot to the head, or sever the brain from the body.
Zombies!!!
 

neoman10

Big Brother
Sep 23, 2008
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TheBluesader said:
neoman10 said:
i wish my parents would listen to you, sadly being 15 i cant vote
I was pretty shocked that my own parents kinda agreed with me this election. They voted for McCain, but that's only because they're single-issue anti-abortion voters who ask Jesus what they should do before they go into the polling booth.

I know a lot of people do this, and I have a problem with it for several reasons, but that's just the way it is. Either way, it's nice to see that even Christian fundies can apply logic a good percentage of the time, even if they don't always follow it.

Hope you're smarter politically at 15 than I was. Lucky you, to be so young and see this historic election. You're a lucky kid.

Here's hoping President Barry won't let us down.
I think I'm politically smart but that might just be my own opinion