Ooooookay. Why is the term "Mary Sue" being thrown around like paint?

[BloatedGuppy]

Did you even watch A New Hope? Like, ever? The plans were getting there one way or another. The Empire WANTED them to escape so they could track the Falcon to the Rebel base. Leia couldn't have known that, but her dropping them in the garbage chute still ended up nearly getting them killed and placed in unnecessary danger.

Yes. And a lot more recently than you, I'd wager. At no point in the film does anyone utter the words "These plans are getting there one way or the other". The plans were with R2. If they don't escape, no plans. As to Leia's "mistake", she moved them from a definitively lethal situation to a highly dangerous situation. It's not like staying put was an option.

The plan to rescue Rey was just a rescue operation. They only decided to sabotage the Starkiller shields after they got her and saw things weren't going well.

Uh...no it was not. The Falcon jumps to Starkiller with the SPECIFIC GOAL of sabotaging the shields. It's only after they arrive that Finn reveals he has no idea how, that he only came to rescue Rey, leading to Han saying "People are counting on us! The GALAXY is counting on us!" and the "We'll use the force!" "That's not how the force works!" exchange.

So, to turn your own question back to you...do YOU actually watch these movies?

 

[Frankster]

snip

Fair enough, I respect your god given right to snerk. But as the person who was in the quotebox you responded to, I felt a little miffled that my stated dislike of Poe went unnoticed. I'm an equal opportunity bitcher after all, and given the chance to ***** about Poe, I'm perfectly happy to, he is actually guilty of the single most immersion breaking moment of the film imo.

And honestly as a Poe hater, there's two sides to your story. Sure I don't feel like there's a lot of Poe haters out there like me, but on the other hand there's no one willing to defend him either. Truthfully it seems no one gives a damn about Poe, which I attribute to him being absent for most of the movie and therefore easier to forget about when one is bitching about TFA.

The bulk of the discussion in TFA when bitching about characters, seem to be about Rey and Ren. And as I like Ren I'm certainly not gonna be bringing him up in my rants.

Re: Wedge. That's actually something I was thinking about after I had to leave to go do stuff. It's interesting why I came to accept Wedge as the best pilot of the OT, when really...Off the top of my head he only got 3 kills in the OT, the Tie fighter in ANH, the ATAT walker in ESB and then the TIE interceptor in RotJ.

Then you have Poe, who everyone says is the best pilot, and you see him raking up a ridiculous kill count, at one point he kills FIVE ties with a single pass.

Maybe this is part of why I hate Poe and feel his aerial sequences lack the punch the OT has.
Poe looks like a friggin superhero who everyone fawns over (btw I did say Poe might very well be a Gary Stu in this thread so it's not like I'm being inconsistent), whereas Wedge was the silent workhorse, he didn't need people to fawn over him, he just kept being awesome without receiving special praise or adulation.

Well at least until you reach the now retconned EU.. The fact that Wedge is the only pilot to have survived all major battles and TWO death star runs (meaning he actually gets to paint two death stars on his ship as part of his kill markers) meant people commented on it a lot.

Re: Thrawn. You don't like Thrawn? You MONSTER. Well different tastes and all that, the whole studying his enemy through their art thing is what I like the most about this character xD But I'm also a fan of Vygotsky's theories on culture which might be partially why. If not Thrawn though, the EU had a wealth of other Imperials I liked like Daala or Pelleon, hope you feel more positive about those two

I understand not liking Thrawn, but Daala was just awesome through and through! >:O

Oh btw thanks for correcting that t-16/80 mistake. I feel like I've failed as a star wars nerd though because of it though. *commits seppuku*

Godly skills at multiquote

-Now that I know there was an explanation not in the film, I can accept it. But I stand by my first raw impressions whilst watching the film that she came across as being super ghetto and therefore lacking essential skills such as knowing how to fly. I already thought it was a stretch when kid anakin flew in a space battle and won the day, but he was shown to be an ace podracer. I didn't get that foreshadowing with Rey at all, as I said I was doubtful she even knew how to pilot ground vehicles, which is why it just seemed to come out of nowhere for me, with that one sentence excuse coming off as phoney as a result.
Chalk it up to how I was perceiving the film but I'm want to blame the pacing and the director for not making this clearer if this was the intention.

-I'm sharpening my knives in anticipation. I feel that Poe gets way too much of a free pass considering he is guilty of the single most immersion breaking moment for me: how the fuck did he get to the resistance in time to lead that counter attack? Ok so he was ejected from the ship at just the right height (low enough so he doesn't die from it, high enough that Finn couldn't see him anywhere after their crash land), but stranded on a planet full of scavengers with apparently nothing but the clothes on his back... And he just got a ride straight to the resistance just like that?
I feel like I'm missing something here, even taking into account Rey and Finn spent some time floating around and then got sidetracked, the timing feels super weird to me.

-Yeah I guess less shots about her mechanical skills and more to foreshadow her other skills would have been nice.

- You know when orange yoda was giving her speech and those flashbacks happened, I was far too busy wondering how in the galaxies Luke's lightsaber got found. "that's a story for another time". Oh screw you orange yoda, I'm glad the imperials burned down your establishment
As for theories on Rey's parentage and stuff.. I've deliberately avoided those so far so as to feel the drama from whatever "I am your father!" moment happens in the next film. I actually didn't get the vibe Rey herself was at the scene of those flashback scenes, but rather the force was showing her those moments from the past.
But hey I'm probably wrong and I admit I was distracted at this part, we will see how this goes and if next film I go "aaaaaaaaah now it all makes sense how she was able to do that stuff in the last film" then I'll be the first to say as such in this forum.

-"I just have a hard time understanding how someone could both hate that, and still enjoy Star Wars AT ALL. There's precious little left once you cut it away."
I'm quoting this sentence because I vehemently disagree with it. What makes Star Wars awesome is you can cut that part out and there's a rich setting behind it. As a kid I never wanted to be a jedi, but one of the pilots, bounty hunters or even the random imperials in their fancy uniforms on their cool ships.
A lot of the SW media goes on to explore that, and that's part of the appeal, you can pretty much focus on whatever aspect of the setting most appeals to you. The hero's journey might be a driving point of the films, but if that's all there was to it then I don't think Star Wars would be anywhere near as popular as it is.

Also I apologize for going crazily off topic here, but let's face it, the thread is pretty much "why do you hate Rey" xD

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Capturing the style of the OT isn't the same as distancing themselves from the prequels. Those are two different things.

But for Star Wars fans, there?s an awful lot to love, and part of the point of The Force Awakens is to demonstrate that it was made both for and by fans ? and, in the process, to distance the new entry from George Lucas?s prequel trilogy, which often came off as dismissive of the fan community.

The Comic-Con panel for the film was known for bringing all the big actors in the film on stage for a big conversation. Then it showed a behind-the-scenes video that likely put prequel fans to the sword.

"Real sets, practical effects" are the two main lines that start off the teaser, while showing off a demo reel that supports these words. Throughout the teaser, this concept is harped on repeatedly (there was even an often-ridiculed explanation that the film was shot at a "real" desert), but one major aspect of "Star Wars" is completely left out: computer animation.

Since the release of the 1997 Special editions of the original trilogy and the subsequent prequel films, CGI has been among the major controversial points for fans the world over. "Prequel bashers" claim that the computer animations have taken away from the lifeblood of the franchise, while others see no issues. For the "prequel gushers," "Star Wars" has always been about implementing the latest state-of-the-art technology to tell stories of the galaxy far, far away. That includes not only practical effects, but also CGI.

So by completely ignoring computer animation in the teaser, the marketing team is in some ways ignoring the prequels and aiming to bring back fans who have grown hostile toward the "Star Wars" brand.

This in turn has created a hostile response from fans who do love the prequel films and feel disenfranchised by the recent marketing strategies.

There?s no doubt that The Force Awakens is, in some sense, a reintroduction to that universe we left a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. For many, that was Return of the Jedi, not any of the prequel films. The Force Awakens distances itself from those movies, and does its best to provide fanservice and nostalgia.

Part of what makes Star Wars: The Force Awakens successful is that it doesn?t try to distance itself from the original trilogy as the prequels did. If anything, it?s too close to the original trilogy.

While he's been very diplomatic publicly about The Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith, everything Abrams and Lucasfilm have done since taking over the franchise has been to distance themselves from those movies as much as possible. And that includes the lightsaber duels, which Abrams says are very much a "throwback" to the epic battles in both A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back.

This is just from the first page of search results, I could go on for pages and pages.

That the new films have been aggressively and deliberately marketed to mollify the prequel-bashing segment of the Star Wars fan base is such a widely accepted reality I'd thought it was entirely self-evident. I'm actually kind of startled someone is debating the point.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Chalk it up to how I was perceiving the film but I'm want to blame the pacing and the director for not making this clearer if this was the intention.

That is a totally cogent complaint. I've said myself, many times, that the film is horrendously overstuffed. It's trying to service a generation of older characters AND a generation of newer characters, while introducing a whole new roster of bad guys. All in a ~2 hour movie that has to adhere to a high octane pace and cram in a bunch of fan servicing as well. I put the majority of the blame for this on the prequel films...The Force Awakens had to do a LUDICROUS amount of hand holding to get audiences "re-grounded" for a new era of Star Wars films and wash away the bad taste of a (largely failed) trilogy. That's not to say that it made the best use of the time it DID have, though.

And he just got a ride straight to the resistance just like that?

There's a deleted scene with Poe catching a ride with some Jakku natives, apparently. Also keep in mind that space travel in Star Wars has always taken place at the speed of plot.

"that's a story for another time". Oh screw you orange yoda, I'm glad the imperials burned down your establishment

Hahahahaha yeah that was a total pisstake on the part of the script. One of the major focuses of the film...perhaps THE major focus...was Rey as JJ Abrams beloved "mystery box". They wanted to go back to OT style speculation and surprises. I'm not sure modern "nerd" audiences, weaned on comic book films where the plots were inked out 20 years ago, do well with "not knowing things".

I'm quoting this sentence because I vehemently disagree with it. What makes Star Wars awesome is you can cut that part out and there's a rich setting behind it.

That's your EU talking, though. I'm speaking PURELY of the films. Because TFA is a continuation of the film franchise, which stands largely distinct as its own entity. The films are ENTIRELY centered around the Skywalker legacy, the force, and great events. Lucas himself even said they were "a family drama" first and foremost (although it's hard to put a lot of stock in things Lucas says these days).

EU fans will likely need to accept that the films have always been a separate entity, and will likely continue to be a separate entity. Hopefully the new EU is a little more carefully curated, a little more internally consistent, and is also something worth investing in, so there isn't this crazy bifurcation between "film canon" and "EU canon".

Also I apologize for going crazily off topic here, but let's face it, the thread is pretty much "why do you hate Rey" xD

You're not off topic. The thread was ALWAYS 'why do you hate Rey'.

 

[wizzy555]

- You know when orange yoda was giving her speech and those flashbacks happened, I was far too busy wondering how in the galaxies Luke's lightsaber got found. "that's a story for another time". Oh screw you orange yoda, I'm glad the imperials burned down your establishment

I expected this would be a spin off comic book series. "The little lightsaber that could". The first three issues would be it just falling in the clouds of Bespin

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Did you even watch A New Hope? Like, ever? The plans were getting there one way or another. The Empire WANTED them to escape so they could track the Falcon to the Rebel base. Leia couldn't have known that, but her dropping them in the garbage chute still ended up nearly getting them killed and placed in unnecessary danger.

Yes. And a lot more recently than you, I'd wager. At no point in the film does anyone utter the words "These plans are getting there one way or the other". The plans were with R2. If they don't escape, no plans. As to Leia's "mistake", she moved them from a definitively lethal situation to a highly dangerous situation. It's not like staying put was an option.

The plan to rescue Rey was just a rescue operation. They only decided to sabotage the Starkiller shields after they got her and saw things weren't going well.

Uh...no it was not. The Falcon jumps to Starkiller with the SPECIFIC GOAL of sabotaging the shields. It's only after they arrive that Finn reveals he has no idea how, that he only came to rescue Rey, leading to Han saying "People are counting on us! The GALAXY is counting on us!" and the "We'll use the force!" "That's not how the force works!" exchange.

So, to turn your own question back to you...do YOU actually watch these movies?

They may not have uttered the exact lines (What is it with you and exacts anyway? That seems like a bit of a thing with you) but The Empire's plan was to let them escape on the bugged Falcon so they could find the Rebel base. For crying out loud, Leia was the first one to figure it out when they had a calm moment!

Also, forgive me for missing that detail in Episode 7. Freaking pacing was shot all to hell and I had problems keeping up with it after Rey got kidnapped. I couldn't even tell you why those planets being blown up mattered beyond the loss of life.

Actually, now that I think about it, if Rey is as strong in the force as she seems to be, why the heck didn't she seem to react all that much to the loss of life? One planet explodes and Obi Wan has to sit down from dizziness. Three populated worlds explode and Rey doesn't even notice.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

- You know when orange yoda was giving her speech and those flashbacks happened, I was far too busy wondering how in the galaxies Luke's lightsaber got found. "that's a story for another time". Oh screw you orange yoda, I'm glad the imperials burned down your establishment

I expected this would be a spin off comic book series. "The little lightsaber that could". The first three issues would be it just falling in the clouds of Bespin

I'm expecting a Robot Chicken scetch myself. It WOULD be quite the story though considering the damn thing fell into a FREAKING GAS PLANET!

 

[BloatedGuppy]

They may not have uttered the exact lines (What is it with you and exacts anyway? That seems like a bit of a thing with you) but The Empire's plan was to let them escape on the bugged Falcon so they could find the Rebel base. For crying out loud, Leia was the first one to figure it out when they had a calm moment!

Is the question here "What is it with you and your insistence on remembering things as they actually happened"? Christ, I don't know. I'm just fussy that way I guess.

Also, forgive me for missing that detail in Episode 7. Freaking pacing was shot all to hell and I had problems keeping up with it after Rey got kidnapped. I couldn't even tell you why those planets being blown up mattered beyond the loss of life.

I'd be totally sympathetic to this if you hadn't been the one to start in with 'HURR HURR DO YOU ACTUALLY WATCH THE FILMS'. People living in glass houses, and all that. The planets mattered, if you're interested, because A) They were at that time the core worlds of the New Republic, including the seat of government, and B) it took the fleet out with them, decimating their military strength.

Actually, now that I think about it, if Rey is as strong in the force as she seems to be, why the heck didn't she seem to react all that much to the loss of life? One planet explodes and Obi Wan has to sit down from dizziness. Three populated worlds explode and Rey doesn't even notice.

Why didn't Luke react when Alderaan was destroyed? The films are all over the place with the force.

It WOULD be quite the story though considering the damn thing fell into a FREAKING GAS PLANET!

Canonically, it was retrieved from inside Cloud City. It did not take the same route out Luke did, he went off down a side tunnel.

Apparently in the original EU all kinds of nonsense springs from the recovered hand, including an evil clone of Luke.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

A lot of that is speculation by websites from before the movie came out. You say capturing the style of the OT, which is does, but Disney haven't pretended that it's any "more canon" than the prequels nor have they distanced themselves from the prequels.

Rather than looking at speculation from random websites from before the movie came out, look at the actual canon stuff (FA included) that Disney has done.

Do you have an example for me? Disney stuffed Gungans perhaps? The Big Book of Midichlorians? Everything I've seen of the new EU seems to its feet planted firmly in the OT, but if you've found a ton of prequel nods, by all means I'm happy to have a look. I'm willing to make a gentleman's bet, however, that the entire run of Disney Star Wars films will come and go with hardly a single prequel callback between them.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Why didn't Luke react when Alderaan was destroyed? The films are all over the place with the force.

It WOULD be quite the story though considering the damn thing fell into a FREAKING GAS PLANET!

Canonically, it was retrieved from inside Cloud City. It did not take the same route out Luke did, he went off down a side tunnel.

Apparently in the original EU all kinds of nonsense springs from the recovered hand, including an evil clone of Luke.

Well Luke had no training in the Force by that point. Neither did Rey, but then Luke wasn't reversing mind ripping, mind tricking, or force pulling at that point so you'll excuse me for thinking Rey should be able to pick up on that.

Also you'll note that pretty much NO ONE is willing to defend THAT particular story. Freaking Luuke.

 

[happyninja42]

Also, forgive me for missing that detail in Episode 7. Freaking pacing was shot all to hell and I had problems keeping up with it after Rey got kidnapped. I couldn't even tell you why those planets being blown up mattered beyond the loss of life.

They were the seat of government for the New Republic. Basically, using an example from the USA, they nuked Washington DC, New York, the Pentagon, and whatever other key locations would fit that comparison.

Actually, now that I think about it, if Rey is as strong in the force as she seems to be, why the heck didn't she seem to react all that much to the loss of life? One planet explodes and Obi Wan has to sit down from dizziness. Three populated worlds explode and Rey doesn't even notice.

Because JJ Abrams didn't think to add that in? Seriously, why are you blaming the character for the writing?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Well Luke had no training in the Force by that point. Neither did Rey, but then Luke wasn't reversing mind ripping, mind tricking, or force pulling at that point so you'll excuse me for thinking Rey should be able to pick up on that.

Yeah yeah, I know, Rey wasn't a level 7 Jedi yet and at level 7 Jedi unlock all those abilities, and also get 10 talent points to assign to their various Jedi abilities, as is CLEARLY implicated in the films.

Also you'll note that pretty much NO ONE is willing to defend THAT particular story. Freaking Luuke.

At least they had the good sense to get that second u in there. Would've caused a lot of confusion otherwise.

 

[Frankster]

snippy

-I'm starting to be hopeful that an extended cut on dvd with more scenes would make me enjoy TFA a lot more.

-Such as putting back that missing scene. I still find it amazing Poe stumbles onto people willing to help him just like that, free of charge, on a planet like Jakku, but it would have made me accept his sudden reappearance later on a lot better. As it stands it was kind of a mindfuck moment for me when he appeared, especially as I was respecting the film for having the balls to kill off what I thought was going to be an important character so quickly.

-Well this modern nerd certainly has little patience for such coyness when we are dealing with such an established setting and especially if they are going to bring in things like luke's lightsaber and expect us to just accept it, no questions asked.

-It's so hard for me to separate EU from the films now ><
Seems I'll just have to accept this has made me super biased. I guess I watch the films mainly to get an idea of what part of the background elements I want to focus on when consuming EU material more so then because I enjoy the main plot.
ex: In originals I gravitated towards the imperials (Tarkin was awesome!) and the pilots (Wedge and the other rogues), in the prequels it was the clones and the separatists with their cool robots (not the silly ones you see in phantom menace but the droidekas, hellfire droids, etc, they were badass) that appealed to me rather then the jedi.
And now in TFA it's all about Phasma and to a lesser degree, Ren, but right now I'd eagerly buy up anything Phasma related.

Ultimately I wasn't around when it was "just" the films. Growing up with Star Wars the films were only a tiny part of it, so I guess my tastes and views reflect that.

-Re: Luke's evil clone sprouting from his lost hand...... I confirm this was a thing, the clone was called Luuke skywalker and..eugh it was in the Thrawn trilogy no less. Bigging up Thrawn as my first choice of awesome EU material is starting to backfire on me most severely. Let's pretend Daala was my first choice now please T_T

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Well Luke had no training in the Force by that point. Neither did Rey, but then Luke wasn't reversing mind ripping, mind tricking, or force pulling at that point so you'll excuse me for thinking Rey should be able to pick up on that.

Yeah yeah, I know, Rey wasn't a level 7 Jedi yet and at level 7 Jedi unlock all those abilities, and also get 10 talent points to assign to their various Jedi abilities, as is CLEARLY implicated in the films.

Also you'll note that pretty much NO ONE is willing to defend THAT particular story. Freaking Luuke.

At least they had the good sense to get that second u in there. Would've caused a lot of confusion otherwise.

So Rey is clearly dating the Dungeon Master then. Not even level 7 and yet she has all those powers with none of the downsides that come with being a Jedi. (From HK-47 himself, the best way to incapacitate a Jedi is to gun down their allies. Freaking wrecks them feeling a lot of death that quickly.)

It's like I made a Paladin in 3.5 Dungeons and Dragons, killed everyone in an orphanage run by people in dedication to my patron God, but then still kept my Paladin powers. (Okay, an exageration, but the point is the same.)

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

[

-Re: Luke's evil clone sprouting from his lost hand...... I confirm this was a thing, the clone was called Luuke skywalker and..eugh it was in the Thrawn trilogy no less. Bigging up Thrawn as my first choice of awesome EU material is starting to backfire on me most severely. Let's pretend Daala was my first choice now please T_T

No, even the good Star Wars movies have their missteps. We can forgive the Thrawn Trilogy for Luuke.

Also, wasn't Daala Tarkin's secret apprentice/lover who went on to lead Imperial remnants o humiliating defeat after humiliating defeat only to somehow end up leading the Republic, or am I thinking of someone else?

Also, forgive me for missing that detail in Episode 7. Freaking pacing was shot all to hell and I had problems keeping up with it after Rey got kidnapped. I couldn't even tell you why those planets being blown up mattered beyond the loss of life.

They were the seat of government for the New Republic. Basically, using an example from the USA, they nuked Washington DC, New York, the Pentagon, and whatever other key locations would fit that comparison.

Boy, sure would've been nice to know that. All I got was that the Republic fleet got blown up in that. Amazing kind of incompetence on their part keeping most of the fleet around one planet actually. Makes me miss grandpa Sidious.

Because JJ Abrams didn't think to add that in? Seriously, why are you blaming the character for the writing?

Because it kind of adds to the apparent Sueishness of Rey. All those kickass abilities, none of the downsides. Though finding out all of the complaints with this character could be traced back to JJ, I don't get Kirk beyond him liking ladies, Abrams would do a lot to redeem her.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Well there's the Rebels series for one thing, which is full of prequel stuff.

Also there's rumours that Hayden Christensen is going to be appearing in Episode 8, so I'll be mighty surprised if they get through a movie with a prequel character and actor in it without a prequel reference.

And again, that small alien woman mentions like the Sith and Jedi Temple(?) and the era of the prequels, and Anakin's lightsaber is in the FA with Kylo, who idolizes Anakin, even though "That belongs to me".

A return of Hayden as Anakin's ghost would be interesting. I'll believe it when I see it, but it would be a nice opportunity for the actor to redeem his reputation after struggling with Lucas's cornball dialogue and inept direction.

The Jedi mythology and the Sith, and Vader in general, don't really "belong" to the prequels. If they want to revisit Vader at all they kind of HAVE to use Christensen at this point. It's not like Prowse is going to fucking do it.

Things that would call heavily back to the prequels would be Gungans, the Trade Federation and their Battle Droids, prequel-specific species (most prominently the ones with...uh..."contentious" accents), flippy flippy weightless saber fighting, heavy use of insanely busy CGI backdrops and/or tiny CGI sets that restrict actor movement to standing or walking for a short moment and then stopping.

Boy, sure would've been nice to know that. All I got was that the Republic fleet got blown up in that. Amazing kind of incompetence on their part keeping most of the fleet around one planet actually. Makes me miss grandpa Sidious.

There wasn't much of a fleet left period, due to the disarmament treaty. And yeah, a lack of world building/state of the galaxy context was more of the film's most egregious sins. I get feeling allergic to "Space Politics" after Phantom Menace, but it resulted in a lot of (IMO) unnecessary confusion.

 

[Callate]

I'm willing to make a gentleman's bet, however, that the entire run of Disney Star Wars films will come and go with hardly a single prequel callback between them.

From your mouth to God's ears (or perhaps in this case, Bob Iger's).