Opinion!: Democracy in America (dead?)

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Spitfire175

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Hardcore_gamer said:
poncho14 said:
I don't think you can complain about not having change when you're refusing the change they are trying to make, he has tryed to introduce Universal Healthcare and everyones saying it's bad. That was probably one part of change they were going to make, he probably has more in plan but if people condemn them on there first attempt to make change with everyone saying he is a devilchild then how is he ment to introduce any other form of change when they will probably be condemned for that aswell.
This.

The thread author whines and cry's about the American government not doing anything while it is in fact because of people that cry endlessly about not wanting to have anything to do with the changes being introduced by Obama, sort of like a spoiled child that says it's hates anything and everyone and dismisses anything it's parent says in an attempt to calm the child down.
I agree. The republicans (some of them) don't seem to know/want to aknowledge how democracy works. Those who get elected get to power and they get to pull the strings. As simple as that.
 

geldonyetich

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Dollars to donuts, the OP lives in one of those conservative states and is constantly being surrounded by talk radio catering to corporate interests that basically slam the president at every turn, often about fabricated faults, because they're trying desperately to cling to their ill-gotten gains.

The real bottom line about America right now is we're tettering on the brink of collapse because we've let the people favoring Reganomics in power too long. It's a camp that figures you can keep the good times roll, 1950s style, by spending us under the table and never have to worry about paying the piper. In the reality, the people who end up shouldering that debt is the individual american, and the upper class get off scott free. We're basically not going to see America out of debt in our lifetime, and probably suffer a major depression we will not be emerging from, soon.

But hey, go ahead and flame Obama for doing what little he can to turn this hell in a handbasket scenario around.
 

Robo-Penguin

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Seldon2639 said:
jpoon said:
The presidunce should propose this per state maybe, give each and every state the choice to join in on socalist care that way things would settle out a bit more fairly.

1. Fix Tort Reform and get rid of frivolous lawsuits (while fucking over lawyers in the process, always a good thing).
2. Remove protectionist laws like State borders for insurance (there's no need for this kind of shit anyways, it prevents low prices).
3. Remove penalties for not having insurance in his govcare proposal (free markets can't penalize for non-compliance).
4. Allow each state to vote for/against it.
5. Have a beer and/or a blunt and relax cause you finally got your shit done.
1. And in the process lower the standard of care for patients, who no longer have the recourse of lawsuits to punish poor insurance providers or poor doctors. Where's the free market rhetoric when we're talking about the freedom to sue people? Or do you just want protections from free market consequences for some groups.
Talk to doctors who have to pay out the ass for malpractice insurance. As a student working towards being a doctor, I dread the day I face a lawsuit for malpractice when I improvise for the deaf by writing down the stuff I'm trying to tell them instead of providing a expensive sign language translator. Is it fair that a doctor must have over their head the fear of being sued because lawyers like John Edwards wishes to make a quick buck off the misfortunes of others?
 

jpoon

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Robo-Penguin said:
jpoon said:
The presidunce should propose this per state maybe, give each and every state the choice to join in on socalist care that way things would settle out a bit more fairly.

1. Fix Tort Reform and get rid of frivolous lawsuits (while fucking over lawyers in the process, always a good thing).
2. Remove protectionist laws like State borders for insurance (there's no need for this kind of shit anyways, it prevents low prices).
3. Remove penalties for not having insurance in his govcare proposal (free markets can't penalize for non-compliance).
4. Allow each state to vote for/against it.
5. Have a beer and/or a blunt and relax cause you finally got your shit done.
there are flaws to your argument,
1)wont happen because great Howard Dean(D-VT)put it truthfully: We already are making enemies over this health care and we don't wish to make enemies with the trial lawyers".
2)give states actual rights? I thought the federal government was the only decision maker in America
3)Penalties are incentives to go with the universal health care, obama did state he was a single payer proponent
4)refer back to item 2
5)no cynical argument for that except that it is congress and the only work they can achieve is wasting time/money/people's sanity
1. We are talking about FRIVOLOUS lawsuits here, of course this will piss some shitty lawyers off as they are fucking vampires feeding off other peoples suffering. Howard Dean is a fucking puppet by the way, just like George Dubya Bush.
2. I don't think you quite understand what I said here, there are laws in place that prevent insurance from crossing state borders. It is a protectionist law that is NOT needed. Remove it.
3.Penalties are not incentives. That makes no sense. The people in mass do not seem to want a single payer system, I don't blame them, remove bullshit penalties because we are supposed to be a free fucking market not a goddam socialist haven.
4.Voting for/against would give the right to the states, as it should be. I think that states rights are more important that federal rights and our constitution supports this. Why would our founders restrict the powers of the federal government so much otherwise? They understood that tyranny arises from the federal governments power.
5.On with the beer and weed already.
 

Seldon2639

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Doktor Merkwurdigliebe said:
jpoon said:
Both of them are puppets, I want to destroy the puppeteers, in all honesty.
And that would be...?
That's the good question. I'm betting some combination of the Elders of Zion, The Trilateral Commission and the Bilderberg Conference, The Council on Foreign Relations, The Illuminati and/or Freemasons, The New World Order, and we mustn't forget the lizard people
 

Robo-Penguin

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CrysisMcGee said:
Hmmm.....I think I'll move to Canada. Or England. I hear they have free college in England.

All in all though, Freedom of choice, freedom of movement, freedom of life is what matters to me.
Hope you're not overweight. In England, they just provides you with a grave.
 

Seldon2639

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Robo-Penguin said:
Talk to doctors who have to pay out the ass for malpractice insurance. As a student working towards being a doctor, I dread the day I face a lawsuit for malpractice when I improvise for the deaf by writing down the stuff I'm trying to tell them instead of providing a expensive sign language translator. Is it fair that a doctor must have over their head the fear of being sued because lawyers like John Edwards wishes to make a quick buck off the misfortunes of others?
Ask it from the other side. You may be a good doctor, and want nothing but to provide awesome care for your patients. But what about the E.R doctor who misses the diagnosis because he's just trying to get patients gone as quickly as possible to make a quick buck? Without the threat of malpractice, do you not think some doctors would skimp, and cut corners, and work less diligently? Why do we trust doctors in a way that we don't trust anyone else in the world? You wouldn't say "well, lawyers are so expensive, so we'll make it that you can't sue your employer for breach of contract, that'll save some money, right?" No one would.

As a law clerk, I see many cases of doctors who blew a diagnosis because they didn't want to take the time to get it right, or couldn't properly diagnose in a fifteen-minute session. I also worked as an administrator in a dermatology practice, so I know the other side of it as well. Malpractice is expensive, but what's the alternative? Who gets to say "this is frivolous" versus "oh, well, the doctor screwed up?" Isn't that kind of the job of a court?
 

Robo-Penguin

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jpoon said:
Robo-Penguin said:
jpoon said:
The presidunce should propose this per state maybe, give each and every state the choice to join in on socalist care that way things would settle out a bit more fairly.

1. Fix Tort Reform and get rid of frivolous lawsuits (while fucking over lawyers in the process, always a good thing).
2. Remove protectionist laws like State borders for insurance (there's no need for this kind of shit anyways, it prevents low prices).
3. Remove penalties for not having insurance in his govcare proposal (free markets can't penalize for non-compliance).
4. Allow each state to vote for/against it.
5. Have a beer and/or a blunt and relax cause you finally got your shit done.
there are flaws to your argument,
1)wont happen because great Howard Dean(D-VT)put it truthfully: We already are making enemies over this health care and we don't wish to make enemies with the trial lawyers".
2)give states actual rights? I thought the federal government was the only decision maker in America
3)Penalties are incentives to go with the universal health care, obama did state he was a single payer proponent
4)refer back to item 2
5)no cynical argument for that except that it is congress and the only work they can achieve is wasting time/money/people's sanity
1. We are talking about FRIVOLOUS lawsuits here, of course this will piss some shitty lawyers off as they are fucking vampires feeding off other peoples suffering. Howard Dean is a fucking puppet by the way, just like George Dubya Bush.
2. I don't think you quite understand what I said here, there are laws in place that prevent insurance from crossing state borders. It is a protectionist law that is NOT needed. Remove it.
3.Penalties are not incentives. That makes no sense. The people in mass do not seem to want a single payer system, I don't blame them, remove bullshit penalties because we are supposed to be a free fucking market not a goddam socialist haven.
4.Voting for/against would give the right to the states, as it should be. I think that states rights are more important that federal rights and our constitution supports this. Why would our founders restrict the powers of the federal government so much otherwise? They understood that tyranny arises from the federal governments power.
5.On with the beer and weed already.
I was taking a cynical tongue and cheek stance on your argument, personally I agree with you entirely. Let free market live and screw the "cradle to grave" lovers
 

Quadtrix

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I'm a strong believer in the theory that the world will be much better when America gets the shit nuked out of it.
 

jpoon

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Seldon2639 said:
Doktor Merkwurdigliebe said:
jpoon said:
Both of them are puppets, I want to destroy the puppeteers, in all honesty.
And that would be...?
That's the good question. I'm betting some combination of the Elders of Zion, The Trilateral Commission and the Bilderberg Conference, The Council on Foreign Relations, The Illuminati and/or Freemasons, The New World Order, and we mustn't forget the lizard people
I would more target power brokers and some choice shareholders and corporate owners but call them whatever you will. Actually the CFR and the Bilderberg do have a lot of say in what happens in government (though they promise they don't but you can read their minute papers and get an idea of what they talk about if need be) aside from what you likely believe.
 

Sewblon

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SoldierG65434-2 said:
Technicaly speaking, democracy never truley exsisted in America in the first place. America is a represenative republic.
As it should be. In large groups human beings are fickle and irrational, that's why pure democracies are short-lived. Change is not always good, at the time the Patriot Act was a change. You don't need to spend money to make money, when humanity first appeared money didn't exist, where do you think it came from in the first place? We get these rants once every three weeks at least, quit whining. Our politics was this bad in the 1970's too, but we survived and many countries are still much worse off than the United States, like Somalia and North Korea. Why are so many people with enough free time to hang out on this website apparently convinced that no one else knows or cares about politics? If you are so impassioned, do something about it aside from telling people who have already heard what you have to say from other people.
 

jpoon

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Quadtrix said:
I'm a strong believer in the theory that the world will be much better when America gets the shit nuked out of it.
That makes a lot of sense. DF.
 

Robo-Penguin

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Seldon2639 said:
Robo-Penguin said:
Talk to doctors who have to pay out the ass for malpractice insurance. As a student working towards being a doctor, I dread the day I face a lawsuit for malpractice when I improvise for the deaf by writing down the stuff I'm trying to tell them instead of providing a expensive sign language translator. Is it fair that a doctor must have over their head the fear of being sued because lawyers like John Edwards wishes to make a quick buck off the misfortunes of others?
Ask it from the other side. You may be a good doctor, and want nothing but to provide awesome care for your patients. But what about the E.R doctor who misses the diagnosis because he's just trying to get patients gone as quickly as possible to make a quick buck? Without the threat of malpractice, do you not think some doctors would skimp, and cut corners, and work less diligently? Why do we trust doctors in a way that we don't trust anyone else in the world? You wouldn't say "well, lawyers are so expensive, so we'll make it that you can't sue your employer for breach of contract, that'll save some money, right?" No one would.

As a law clerk, I see many cases of doctors who blew a diagnosis because they didn't want to take the time to get it right, or couldn't properly diagnose in a fifteen-minute session. I also worked as an administrator in a dermatology practice, so I know the other side of it as well. Malpractice is expensive, but what's the alternative? Who gets to say "this is frivolous" versus "oh, well, the doctor screwed up?" Isn't that kind of the job of a court?
I don't wish to see a society where doctors are not made to account for their mistakes. I think(cant say I'm going to say this) California's tort reform in the 60s or 70s should be universal in America. Put a cap on how much can be won for a case to discourage the ambulance chasers.
 

Robo-Penguin

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Quadtrix said:
I'm a strong believer in the theory that the world will be much better when America gets the shit nuked out of it.
that's with you in or out of it at the time of the nuking?
 

jpoon

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I'm really wondering why anyone that's not America would bother to even chime in on this since you don't give a shit anyways, surely you should be busy preparing a nuke for good ole Washington D.C. or something, shouldn't you?
 

jpoon

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Robo-Penguin said:
Seldon2639 said:
Robo-Penguin said:
Talk to doctors who have to pay out the ass for malpractice insurance. As a student working towards being a doctor, I dread the day I face a lawsuit for malpractice when I improvise for the deaf by writing down the stuff I'm trying to tell them instead of providing a expensive sign language translator. Is it fair that a doctor must have over their head the fear of being sued because lawyers like John Edwards wishes to make a quick buck off the misfortunes of others?
Ask it from the other side. You may be a good doctor, and want nothing but to provide awesome care for your patients. But what about the E.R doctor who misses the diagnosis because he's just trying to get patients gone as quickly as possible to make a quick buck? Without the threat of malpractice, do you not think some doctors would skimp, and cut corners, and work less diligently? Why do we trust doctors in a way that we don't trust anyone else in the world? You wouldn't say "well, lawyers are so expensive, so we'll make it that you can't sue your employer for breach of contract, that'll save some money, right?" No one would.

As a law clerk, I see many cases of doctors who blew a diagnosis because they didn't want to take the time to get it right, or couldn't properly diagnose in a fifteen-minute session. I also worked as an administrator in a dermatology practice, so I know the other side of it as well. Malpractice is expensive, but what's the alternative? Who gets to say "this is frivolous" versus "oh, well, the doctor screwed up?" Isn't that kind of the job of a court?
I don't wish to see a society where doctors are not made to account for their mistakes. I think(cant say I'm going to say this) California's tort reform in the 60s or 70s should be universal in America. Put a cap on how much can be won for a case to discourage the ambulance chasers.
To an extent I would think this could be a good idea. Still anything to fuck over a lawyer can't be a bad thing! XD
 

JimmerDunda

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Quadtrix said:
I'm a strong believer in the theory that the world will be much better when America gets the shit nuked out of it.
How about we stick you and a bunch of furries on an island and nuke that.

Ya, I like that a lot better.
 

McClaud

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Robo-Penguin said:
Quadtrix said:
I'm a strong believer in the theory that the world will be much better when America gets the shit nuked out of it.
that's with you in or out of it at the time of the nuking?
Don't feed the troll. He's just trying to incite the flames of the thread (which is evident, as you put it, from him stating he's from the US in his profile)
 

Seldon2639

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Robo-Penguin said:
I don't wish to see a society where doctors are not made to account for their mistakes. I think(cant say I'm going to say this) California's tort reform in the 60s or 70s should be universal in America. Put a cap on how much can be won for a case to discourage the ambulance chasers.
That's not too far off. Especially when we talk about insurance tort reform (remember that malpractice can be applied to both insurance providers and to doctors), a cap isn't much different from complete immunity from suit. $5M is a slap on the wrist for Aetna, even if it sounds like a lot. How do you determine how much money to give a family whose son died or was severely burned due to faulty equipment being used (as happened recently in Colorado)? There's a reason much of the damages are punitive, rather than strict liability. We're punishing the company/doctor, not just saying "here's what your injury is worth".

If McDonalds sells me an under-cooked cheeseburger with a flesh-eating virus on it, no one in the world would have a problem with me suing them for every penny I can get. What's the difference with doctors screwing up?
 

Robo-Penguin

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Seldon2639 said:
Robo-Penguin said:
I don't wish to see a society where doctors are not made to account for their mistakes. I think(cant say I'm going to say this) California's tort reform in the 60s or 70s should be universal in America. Put a cap on how much can be won for a case to discourage the ambulance chasers.
That's not too far off. Especially when we talk about insurance tort reform (remember that malpractice can be applied to both insurance providers and to doctors), a cap isn't much different from complete immunity from suit. $5M is a slap on the wrist for Aetna, even if it sounds like a lot. How do you determine how much money to give a family whose son died or was severely burned due to faulty equipment being used (as happened recently in Colorado)? There's a reason much of the damages are punitive, rather than strict liability. We're punishing the company/doctor, not just saying "here's what your injury is worth".

If McDonalds sells me an under-cooked cheeseburger with a flesh-eating virus on it, no one in the world would have a problem with me suing them for every penny I can get. What's the difference with doctors screwing up?
I agree that in the case of death there should be a up most penalty to the doctor or insurance company(cant sue the government by the way-offtopic), but when a doctor loses the right to practice medicine for some asinine reason is that right?