Out of Sight Out of Mind (Mass Effect 2)

[Koji Arala]

Bioware lied to us. They said they had a full story arc planned, but ME2 really does prove that their grand plan is the Chris Carter Effect in full motion.

As everyone else has mentioned the Justicars aren't relevant to the story of the first game, so that's fine. Also, given that there's very few, and they don't leave asari space, and the only ones who really seem to know what they are are the other asari, this lapse is really pretty justified, except: why do they exist at all? We don't really have enough data on assari culture to know if there's a legitimate reason for their existance as a faction. The knight errant and samuri both had very strictly defined roles in their respective feudal systems. If the assari have some kind of feudal government we're not privy to their existance makes sense, if not, then they are a peculiar addition.

Omega is a very strange omission. You would think it would have been mentioned someplace, hell Wrex explicitly mentions Aria (IIRC), but there's no mention of the station she's running

Somebody already noted that, yes, it was an Asari Commando named Aleena who he was talking about, not Aria, however, there is evidence to suggest that Aleena and Aria are the same person and that Omega is the station that Wrex spoke of.
-Aleena survived their encounter
-When spoken to of her past, Aria notes that she wasn't always who she is now, even ran with merc outfits.
-Noted that Patriarch wasn't the first Krogan she pissed off
-When asked about who she used to be before Omega, she notes that there are people she doesn't want finding her, not all of them being enemies. Wrex was not exactly an enemy, but not exactly someone she wants finding her.
-This would also mean that she wasn't yet in charge of Omega, in fact that her encounter with Wrex is what gave her the chance to become Aria, leader of Omega.

I could swear that the blood pack got mentioned in 1 someplace, but, what's strange here isn't that we run into these three merc groups, its that we only run into these three merc groups. There shouldn't be a shortage of merc groups in the Terminus systems. The Blue Suns have only been around for 20 years, so why aren't there more mercs? More freelance mercs? More pirate groups? ect. These aren't the kinds of markets where you generate a big three. And where are the council merc groups? I seem to remember the codex explicitly stated one of the weapons manufacturers (Elkoss Combine I think) ran a mercenary branch. I do have to credit bioware though, at least it's not a single criminal faction, like the Exchange in KOTOR, that they're so fond of doing.

Worth noting, on the topic of pirate groups, that you, as the crew of the Normandy, more than likely wouldn't encounter them as you are riding a stealth ship, something that pirate groups would have a difficult to impossible time locating to actually hit.

Though more merc groups would be rather more realistic.

Everyone remembers Cerberus from 1. Except, you're right, ME2's Cerberus is nowhere to be seen. This gets waved off by having Jacob or EDI say something about how you've only run into one branch of Cerberus before, and this is a seperate branch of the organization, but, seriously? This is not even remotly similar. Mass Effect 1's Cerberus is a throwback to B5's Thirteen or Star Trek's Section 31, a small unofficial covert ops unit with limited resources, and a psychotically pro-earth stance. Mass Effect 2's Cerberus is more in line with B5's Psi Corps, a large, extragovernmental organization with staggering resources, and a much less pronounced pro-Earth stance. But, you've hit on a very very good point here...

Why don't we ever see or hear about the Illusive Man in ME1? Because Bioware fucked up. Cerberus doesn't line up between the two games, at all. The reason is we have to sympathize with them in 2 or we won't do what they're asking, so Bioware had to "redesign" the organization. Which means, if there was a plan for ME2 originally, this isn't it.

I feel as if the "Magnificent Manipulating Bastard" status which is alluded to on the Illusive Man's part should be noted here. The crew of the Normandy was hand picked to serve with Shepard. It is entirely possible that, to ensure Shepard's compliance, people were specifically recruited who would appear more moderate, or actually were the more moderate members of Cerberus. The person who would not have been a factor in this, Miranda, shows signs of being totally compliant with what Cerberus has done in the past. The two engineers don't even know anything directly about Cerberus, plucked straight out of the Alliance, same goes for Chakwas and Joker. Does one actually expect a janitor/cook to reflect a violently militant black ops mind set? The remainder of the crew, save for Kelly, you don't even speak to, and can't know their points of view on the issue of Cerberus.

Also of note on the part of the Illusive Man not being mentioned. Let us take into consideration that an Alliance Admiral, Mr. Kahoku, was just barley able to discover the existance of Cerberus at all, and was murdered before he could provide any real relevant information. It stands to reason that if even a top brass of the very organization which Cerberus operates from the shadows of can't live long enough to find out the Illusive Man exists, that Shepard who, despite being a gun toting badass, has next to nothing in the ways of security and information clearance, wouldn't have even heard about him either. (Its right there in the man's name: "Illusive")

The other piece that supports that ME2 is off reservation, is the collectors. Absolutly no mentione of them whatsoever in 1. They're a fresh addition that bioware didn't plan for in the first game. This could have been done with litterally two lines of dialog, but they hadn't thought them up, because they weren't part of the plan. Certainly not the reveal about them. That was all Bioware BSing out their ass.

This might not seem any better, cause I know a lot of people don't read the Mass Effect books, not even I did, but... Mass Effect 2 pulled a crap ton of stuff from other ME mediums than just ME 1. Miranda and Jacob are both the main characters from Mass Effect Galaxy (the batarian bioweapon plot he mentions being the plot of the game). The Collectors, the title of the Illusive Man and the conflict between the Migrant Fleet and Cerberus is all from Mass Effect: Ascension.

 

[reg42]

I consider all of your points, but isn't it unrealistic to encounter them all at once?

Well if you encountered all of them at once, it just shows you how much there actually is in the galaxy. Galaxies are pretty big you know.

 

[TPiddy]

Well... sort of.

Spoiler: The Collectors in ME1 and The Beacon Video

After the beacon on Eden Prime you get a line about synthetics, killing people. Shepard speculates that maybe he/she saw the geth. It comes off of the dialog with Anderson in the Normandy's med bay. What this kind of suggests is that the reapers have a client race of synthetics, or at least had one when the protheans were being wiped out.

As for actually showing the design of the collectors? I don't think it does, but, I'll admit, I'd need to watch the image spray in 1 again to be absolutly sure. 2 lets you find a very clear shot of a collector in the midst of that video, which messes up my memory of the entire thing.

We can draw two inferances off of this. First, when the reapers harvested the protheans they were using a synthetic client race to do so. Second (and more shakily), that this synthetic race was intended to be the collectors originally.

What that beacon video does show you is the integration of biomass with electronics that you see the payoff for at the end of ME2, so the video is important, I'm just not sure it hints at the appearance of the protheans. (I'll need to check again, when I have the time.) I suspect that in light of ME2, the beacon warning is a lot more detailed than we thought (intentionally or otherwise).

Yeah, it still certainly leads me to believe that more planning went into this than the OP has alluded to, at the very least.

 

[Starke]

Bioware lied to us. They said they had a full story arc planned, but ME2 really does prove that their grand plan is the Chris Carter Effect in full motion.

As everyone else has mentioned the Justicars aren't relevant to the story of the first game, so that's fine. Also, given that there's very few, and they don't leave asari space, and the only ones who really seem to know what they are are the other asari, this lapse is really pretty justified, except: why do they exist at all? We don't really have enough data on assari culture to know if there's a legitimate reason for their existence as a faction. The knight errant and samurai both had very strictly defined roles in their respective feudal systems. If the assari have some kind of feudal government we're not privy to their existence makes sense, if not, then they are a peculiar addition.

Omega is a very strange omission. You would think it would have been mentioned someplace, hell Wrex explicitly mentions Aria (IIRC), but there's no mention of the station she's running

Somebody already noted that, yes, it was an Asari Commando named Aleena who he was talking about, not Aria, however, there is evidence to suggest that Aleena and Aria are the same person and that Omega is the station that Wrex spoke of.
-Aleena survived their encounter
-When spoken to of her past, Aria notes that she wasn't always who she is now, even ran with merc outfits.
-Noted that Patriarch wasn't the first Krogan she pissed off
-When asked about who she used to be before Omega, she notes that there are people she doesn't want finding her, not all of them being enemies. Wrex was not exactly an enemy, but not exactly someone she wants finding her.
-This would also mean that she wasn't yet in charge of Omega, in fact that her encounter with Wrex is what gave her the chance to become Aria, leader of Omega.

Yeah, someone else did catch me on this, and it was simply an error in my memory. It's a reasonable assumption, but, it isn't explicit.

I could swear that the blood pack got mentioned in 1 someplace, but, what's strange here isn't that we run into these three merc groups, its that we only run into these three merc groups. There shouldn't be a shortage of merc groups in the Terminus systems. The Blue Suns have only been around for 20 years, so why aren't there more mercs? More freelance mercs? More pirate groups? ect. These aren't the kinds of markets where you generate a big three. And where are the council merc groups? I seem to remember the codex explicitly stated one of the weapons manufacturers (Elkoss Combine I think) ran a mercenary branch. I do have to credit bioware though, at least it's not a single criminal faction, like the Exchange in KOTOR, that they're so fond of doing.

Worth noting, on the topic of pirate groups, that you, as the crew of the Normandy, more than likely wouldn't encounter them as you are riding a stealth ship, something that pirate groups would have a difficult to impossible time locating to actually hit.

Though more merc groups would be rather more realistic.

Most of the pirate gangs you run into in the first game are camping out minding their own business when a stealth equipped ship comes out of nowhere and wrecks there day. A pirate attack on the Normandy would have been very strange, but running into pirates in other contexts would make a lot of sense. Instead there's, I think 2 N7 missions dealing with pirate gangs, so it is a little weird.

Everyone remembers Cerberus from 1. Except, you're right, ME2's Cerberus is nowhere to be seen. This gets waved off by having Jacob or EDI say something about how you've only run into one branch of Cerberus before, and this is a separate branch of the organization, but, seriously? This is not even remotely similar. Mass Effect 1's Cerberus is a throwback to B5's Thirteen or Star Trek's Section 31, a small unofficial covert ops unit with limited resources, and a psychotically pro-earth stance. Mass Effect 2's Cerberus is more in line with B5's Psi Corps, a large, extra-governmental organization with staggering resources, and a much less pronounced pro-Earth stance. But, you've hit on a very very good point here...

Why don't we ever see or hear about the Illusive Man in ME1? Because Bioware fucked up. Cerberus doesn't line up between the two games, at all. The reason is we have to sympathize with them in 2 or we won't do what they're asking, so Bioware had to "redesign" the organization. Which means, if there was a plan for ME2 originally, this isn't it.

I feel as if the "Magnificent Manipulating Bastard" status which is alluded to on the Illusive Man's part should be noted here. The crew of the Normandy was hand picked to serve with Shepard. It is entirely possible that, to ensure Shepard's compliance, people were specifically recruited who would appear more moderate, or actually were the more moderate members of Cerberus. The person who would not have been a factor in this, Miranda, shows signs of being totally compliant with what Cerberus has done in the past.

Also of note on the part of the Illusive Man not being mentioned. Let us take into consideration that an Alliance Admiral, Mr. Kahoku, was just barley able to discover the existence of Cerberus at all, and was murdered before he could provide any real relevant information. It stands to reason that if even a top brass of the very organization which Cerberus operates from the shadows of can't live long enough to find out the Illusive Man exists, that Shepard who, despite being a gun toting bad ass, has next to nothing in the ways of security and information clearance, wouldn't have even heard about him either. (Its right there in the man's name: "Illusive")

That is a cohesive argument for why Cerberus looks different in 2, but, at the same time, and on disrespect to you, but it strikes me as utter bullshit (on Bioware's part).

First off, the Illusive (not elusive, mind you) Man is mentioned in Cerberus Comms in ME2. You go into abandoned facilities and hear his codename. In ME1 you go into non-abandoned Cerberus bases, kill their inhabitants and never hear the name. It's a codename, it's there specifically so it can be used without exposing it's owner, but, you never hear it in ME1. Further, it dates back to when Cerberus was part of the Alliance, which means it has to have been in use at the time that ME1 was occurring.

There's another continuity gaff here actually. When getting into the mess about the amount of knowledge about Cerberus in circulation. Cerberus was a dirty tricks squad in the first game, and even though most of the operations you're disrupting are all R&D type endeavors, it's pretty clear that they aren't a large organization. Basically the larger your operation is, the harder it is to hide. So in ME1 they're using prefab freighter parts to build untraceable bases.

In 2 they have multiple custom built large space stations, have shipyard facilities that can turn out one of the most advanced human ships, and receive enormous amounts of funding from "sympathetic individuals". Quite simply this isn't the same organization.

As for Shepard's training. Contrary to your (fairly legitimate impression) Shepard is an N7, as is Anderson. These two are some of the most elite special operators in The Systems Alliance, so these are precisely the kind of people who WOULD know about this. For that matter, their N7 status is the only reason they were considered candidates for the Spectre program. Kohaku may or may not have a background in intelligence, but Shepard does.

The other piece that supports that ME2 is off reservation, is the collectors. Absolutely no mention of them whatsoever in 1. They're a fresh addition that bioware didn't plan for in the first game. This could have been done with literally two lines of dialog, but they hadn't thought them up, because they weren't part of the plan. Certainly not the reveal about them. That was all Bioware BSing out their ass.

This might not seem any better, cause I know a lot of people don't read the Mass Effect books, not even I did, but... Mass Effect 2 pulled a crap ton of stuff from other ME mediums than just ME 1. Miranda and Jacob are both the main characters from Mass Effect Galaxy (the batarian bioweapon plot he mentions being the plot of the game). The Collectors, the title of the Illusive Man and the conflict between the Migrant Fleet and Cerberus is all from Mass Effect: Ascension.

Yeah, this is another problem entirely. Someone else said it elegantly.

Because, and this is a key point, all the Star Wars films stand up on their own. You can watch only them, and still it all holds together.

The same is not true of Mass Effect.

I'm fine with expanded universes, but the condensed universe has to be able to stand alone.

The stuff with Jacob is fine, for that matter the bit about the Ascension program during Jack's loyalty quest is also fine, because it's a call back, and you really don't need more information. The stuff with the Migrant Fleet, Liara, and the Illusive Man isn't, because the game doesn't relate what happened, it demands you go to that other source to get the info (okay, IF you slept with Liara in 1, and choose the right dialog options, she'll open up, but she's the exception). And, quite frankly, those novels are so awful they're unreadable. So, it ends up, extremely unreasonable to demand that all your players have read them to understand your story.

 

[Dreey]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWR3x3ctboY

Look at 0:12. That is clearly a collector.

 

[Starke]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWR3x3ctboY

Look at 0:12. That is clearly a collector.

Yeah, that's the ME2 version of the video. I need to dig through my ME1 saves to be absolutly sure, but they changed the video to include a collector. They weren't even particularly subblte about it. The art style is inconsistant with most of the vision, and the shot is easily the longest. The editor wants you to see and hold on that image. They may have patched it into ME1, in which case, I've no idea what to do, except maybe muck around with my disk, but, yup, that's the new version of the vision. You can find the complete ME1 version kicking around on youtube as well. It's almost identical except for the lack of collectors.

EDIT: There's another new shot at 0:18, but I can't make out what it is.

 

[FoAmY99]

Mass Effect 2 has many problems in plot and some continuity problems but a lot of it isn't very noticeable until you pick apart the whole damn game

My thoughts exactly. We're all really nit-picking here.
Of course the thing is going to have continuity issues, all sequels have them somewhere. Some are just more obscure than others. The writers are only human. They're not perfect so their product will not be perfect. Can you honestly think that Bioware's writers are going to sit down and think about every possible issue with the story that we die-hard fans are going to question? No. Why? BECAUSE OTHERWISE NOTHING WOULD GET DONE!

 

[ItsAPaul]

"You weren't in the Terminus systems" covers all of that. Or did you not pay attention to the story you're trying to pick apart?

 

[Dreey]

Yeah, I noticed it was the wrong one too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgWCNAwKpt4&feature=related

Here is the visions from the first in slow motion. No collectors there, but if you look at o:12 again, the silhuette looks alot like the collectors. Not enough to say that it was some foreshadowing to the collectors though.

 

[Starke]

Mass Effect 2 has many problems in plot and some continuity problems but a lot of it isn't very noticeable until you pick apart the whole damn game

My thoughts exactly. We're all really nit-picking here.
Of course the thing is going to have continuity issues, all sequels have them somewhere. Some are just more obscure than others. The writers are only human. They're not perfect so their product will not be perfect. Can you honestly think that Bioware's writers are going to sit down and think about every possible issue with the story that we die-hard fans are going to question? No. Why? BECAUSE OTHERWISE NOTHING WOULD GET DONE!

Foam, no, we're not nitpicking. If we were nitpicking, I'd be bitching about how suddenly, out of knowhere all the weapons manufacturers disappeard, or how the citidel seems to have been rearanged, or a dozzen other random little flecks of BS. No, the story makes less sense now than it did at the end of Mass Effect, which is not nitpicking. The writers aren't just human, they're egotistical, full of shit, and they're losing their touch (if they ever had one).

If they had thought ahead to where they wanted to go in 2, they could have easily foreshadowed material in it. They didn't, they introduced it through books with writing on par with bad fanfiction. And, seriously, when the head writer on a project is turning out vanity novels for their property, and trying to force people to read them in order to make sense of his swiss cheese narrative, something's gone horribly, horribly fucking wrong.

It's not nitpicking. It's shitty writing. It's someone deciding they're better than their own plans. And the result is a mess.

 

[Starke]

Yeah, I noticed it was the wrong one too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgWCNAwKpt4&feature=related

Here is the visions from the first in slow motion. No collectors there, but if you look at o:12 again, the silhuette looks alot like the collectors. Not enough to say that it was some foreshadowing to the collectors though.

To their credit, there's some continuity in the design of the Protheans (in the Beacon Vision) and the collectors in 2, though it's faint enough you're not likely to catch it at first glance.

If it came across as me savaging you in my previous post, I appologize, I'm kinda running low and fast today.

 

[Koji Arala]

As for Shepard's training. Contrary to your (fairly legitimate impression) Shepard is an N7, as is Anderson. These two are some of the most elite special operators in The Systems Alliance, so these are precisely the kind of people who WOULD know about this. For that matter, their N7 status is the only reason they were considered candidates for the Spectre program. Kohaku may or may not have a background in intelligence, but Shepard does.

Oh I am well aware that Shepard is an N7, however, N7 is (broken down), just the Special forces (N) highest proficiency grade (7). Means he is good at what he does, very good at it, but it is clearly stated to not be a rank or a clearance or anything beyond beyond proficiency, IE, a measure of skill. He remains a soldier, not an intel operative.

 

[Always_Remain]

Mass Effect 2 has many problems in plot and some continuity problems but a lot of it isn't very noticeable until you pick apart the whole damn game

My thoughts exactly. We're all really nit-picking here.
Of course the thing is going to have continuity issues, all sequels have them somewhere. Some are just more obscure than others. The writers are only human. They're not perfect so their product will not be perfect. Can you honestly think that Bioware's writers are going to sit down and think about every possible issue with the story that we die-hard fans are going to question? No. Why? BECAUSE OTHERWISE NOTHING WOULD GET DONE!

Foam, no, we're not nitpicking. If we were nitpicking, I'd be bitching about how suddenly, out of knowhere all the weapons manufacturers disappeard, or how the citidel seems to have been rearanged, or a dozzen other random little flecks of BS. No, the story makes less sense now than it did at the end of Mass Effect, which is not nitpicking. The writers aren't just human, they're egotistical, full of shit, and they're losing their touch (if they ever had one).

If they had thought ahead to where they wanted to go in 2, they could have easily foreshadowed material in it. They didn't, they introduced it through books with writing on par with bad fanfiction. And, seriously, when the head writer on a project is turning out vanity novels for their property, and trying to force people to read them in order to make sense of his swiss cheese narrative, something's gone horribly, horribly fucking wrong.

It's not nitpicking. It's shitty writing. It's someone deciding they're better than their own plans. And the result is a mess.

I agree with both of you. The novel thing is ridiculous. I'm afraid to even touch a copy. I almost agree with you completely actually Starke. The quality in ME2's writing is nowhere near as good as ME1, which in general was a little on the shaky side. Bioware ARE full of themselves. All the fans need to stop ass kissing and tell them like it is. I mean don't get me wrong I like the game but as I examine ME2 there is a considerable amount of problems with the writing and general logic.

Spoiler: Mass Effect 2 major plot point Spoiler

Like Shepard should have blown off the Collector's main gun and engines when he went aboard the derelict Collector ship. Even if TIM says the ship is offline Shepard shouldn't risk trusting him 100%. Of course that would of killed a good chunk of gameplay and exposition. Sort of.

Bioware needs to get their heads out of their asses and pick the shit out of their noses because if ME3 is anything like ME2 there will be disappointment. (consider that I'm very tired while typing this so sorry for the errors or nonsensical bullshit.)

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

That being said, there's a bigger problem here: The inconsistent portrayal of Cerberus.

In game one, Cerberus were, and I'm hesitant to use this phrase, but... were pure evil. Nothing they did seemed to be morally ambiguous. It was all horrific scientific experiments and murder.

Then, suddenly, in game two, they're a mostly heroic organization lead by a somewhat dubious leader.

What the?

I appreciate that we're now getting an inside perspective, but it's a jarring shift. More work could have been done to try and smooth that over.

Maybe I'm far too cynical for this world, but this portrayal is wholly realistic. If you know anything of American culture, you'll know that the CIA is shown as, largely, a heroic organization populated by people who ooze sexiness and chew bullets. If you worked for them and had anything more than secretary-level clearance, I'm sure you'd have a much different perspective when you find out you work for an organization who effectively exists to envision Saw-style deaths for important people. "But," Johnny Patriotic says, "they're just protecting Americans at home!" Well, Cerberus is just protecting humanity's interests.

TL;DR version: I think it's realistic.

The primary purpose of the CIA is to run human-intelligence operations in foriegn states. Wet Work is unoubtedly part and parcel to the package and of all the agencies it has the most sordid reputation. It is an organization that operates in lies and ambiguity even in the best of circumstances - one cannot run a human intelligence operation any other way.

In contrast, the DIA (Defense Intelligence Agency) is as squeaky clean as they come, serving as head of the US Military Intelligence community. The DIA has no need to personally run operations - they have at their command a force more than a million strong that exist solely for the purpose of kinetic operations. The NSA (National Security Agency) specializes in signals intelligence and tehnical collection - spy sattelites, electronic intrusion and good old fashioned wire tapping. This sort of operation rarely requires kinetic intervention and it often amused me that in Splinter Cell, Sam Fisher worked under the NSA when his operations fall more within the sphere of the CIA.

Of course, the Intelligence Community is far larger than the big three people think of (if they even think of the DIA). The FBI is the primary domestic arm of intelligence gatherthing, the Department of State (of any nation) provides human intelligence collection and analysis on state relations. Beyond that, most departments within the Federal Government assist in some capacity or another, from the DOE (Department of Energy) to the Secret Service (who primarily work with finances when not defending the heads of state).

In general, the protreyal of Cerberus is realistic enough. They are an organization of people in the end, and one without any real oversight to speak of. Each member of the organization is doing what they think is best, even if it steps across moral boundaries. It was once said that a free people are only free because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf and I do not see this changing in an age of inter-steller travel. Any nation in the world will do things in secret that most would find appalling, but only because it is believed necessary. Even the most heinous crimes of Cerberus were done with the intention of furthering human interests. The simple truth is ugliness is often the simplest route to dispute resolution. There are many tools of statecraft - from diplomacy to open warfare. Even when violence is called for there are varying degrees on hand. From the hammer and anvil of conventional military forces to more precise tools in the form of special operations units and assassins. To those who would assert that there is an underlying wrongness to wet work I would say you are indeed correct, but on the sliding scale of moral lapses wetwork clearly rates better than waging a war that destroys a nation and displaces millions.

 

[Starke]

As for Shepard's training. Contrary to your (fairly legitimate impression) Shepard is an N7, as is Anderson. These two are some of the most elite special operators in The Systems Alliance, so these are precisely the kind of people who WOULD know about this. For that matter, their N7 status is the only reason they were considered candidates for the Spectre program. Kohaku may or may not have a background in intelligence, but Shepard does.

Oh I am well aware that Shepard is an N7, however, N7 is (broken down), just the Special forces (N) highest proficiency grade (7). Means he is good at what he does, very good at it, but it is clearly stated to not be a rank or a clearance or anything beyond beyond proficiency, IE, a measure of skill. He remains a soldier, not an intel operative.

In the real world, any special operator of this caliber would have interfaced with the intelligence community repeatedly. In Biowareland Shepard is a jarhead. In other words, you're right, but not because it makes sense or is logical, but because the people at Bioware don't know what they're talking about.

I agree with both of you. The novel thing is ridiculous. I'm afraid to even touch a copy. I almost agree with you completely actually Starke. The quality in ME2's writing is nowhere near as good as ME1, which in general was a little on the shaky side. Bioware ARE full of themselves. All the fans need to stop ass kissing and tell them like it is. I mean don't get me wrong I like the game but as I examine ME2 there is a considerable amount of problems with the writing and general logic.

Spoiler: Mass Effect 2 major plot point Spoiler

Like Shepard should have blown off the Collector's main gun and engines when he went aboard the derelict Collector ship. Even if TIM says the ship is offline Shepard shouldn't risk trusting him 100%. Of course that would of killed a good chunk of game play and exposition. Sort of.

Bioware needs to get their heads out of their asses and pick the shit out of their noses because if ME3 is anything like ME2 there will be disappointment. (consider that I'm very tired while typing this so sorry for the errors or nonsensical bullshit.)

The nonsensical bullshit quota in your post is far lower than anyone else's in this thread, myself included. You're saying the same things I've been saying for most of a year now, and it's creeping me out. As a complete non-sequitor, when you said "TIM" for a second all I could think of was the character from Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail, (which would make the illusive man far more amusing.)

The only thing I can really add is, if ME3 follows in step with 2, there will be disappointment among people like us. The masses will continue to consume it mindlessly and pray at it's alter. Honestly I predicted that based on DAO, ME2's writing would be bad enough that people would rebel. ME2's writing is worse than I expected, and they're still getting praised to hell and back.

It's sad, I'm sitting here remembering Black Isle fondly. And realizing just how fucked up the western RPG market is when Bioware is releasing crap like this, and most of the people playing it have never even heard of games like Deus Ex or Planescape. (And wouldn't have heard of Fallout if not for Bethesda.)

Mass Effect 1 took place largely in the Citadel and on official missions.

Mass Effect 2 did not.

Thank you, your post is as relevant as it is insightful.

 

[Starke]

Sorry about the double post.

The primary purpose of the CIA is to run human-intelligence operations in foriegn states. Wet Work is unoubtedly part and parcel to the package and of all the agencies it has the most sordid reputation. It is an organization that operates in lies and ambiguity even in the best of circumstances - one cannot run a human intelligence operation any other way.

In contrast, the DIA (Defense Intelligence Agency) is as squeaky clean as they come, serving as head of the US Military Intelligence community. The DIA has no need to personally run operations - they have at their command a force more than a million strong that exist solely for the purpose of kinetic operations. The NSA (National Security Agency) specializes in signals intelligence and tehnical collection - spy sattelites, electronic intrusion and good old fashioned wire tapping. This sort of operation rarely requires kinetic intervention and it often amused me that in Splinter Cell, Sam Fisher worked under the NSA when his operations fall more within the sphere of the CIA.

Of course, the Intelligence Community is far larger than the big three people think of (if they even think of the DIA). The FBI is the primary domestic arm of intelligence gatherthing, the Department of State (of any nation) provides human intelligence collection and analysis on state relations. Beyond that, most departments within the Federal Government assist in some capacity or another, from the DOE (Department of Energy) to the Secret Service (who primarily work with finances when not defending the heads of state).

In general, the protreyal of Cerberus is realistic enough. They are an organization of people in the end, and one without any real oversight to speak of. Each member of the organization is doing what they think is best, even if it steps across moral boundaries. It was once said that a free people are only free because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf and I do not see this changing in an age of inter-steller travel. Any nation in the world will do things in secret that most would find appalling, but only because it is believed necessary. Even the most heinous crimes of Cerberus were done with the intention of furthering human interests. The simple truth is ugliness is often the simplest route to dispute resolution. There are many tools of statecraft - from diplomacy to open warfare. Even when violence is called for there are varying degrees on hand. From the hammer and anvil of conventional military forces to more precise tools in the form of special operations units and assassins. To those who would assert that there is an underlying wrongness to wet work I would say you are indeed correct, but on the sliding scale of moral lapses wetwork clearly rates better than waging a war that destroys a nation and displaces millions.

First, I want to honestly complement you for a very well written assessment of the American Intelligence community. You skipped the DSS which overlaps heavily with the Secret Service, and it doesn't reflect the mess that Homeland Security has caused in regard to interagency cooperation, but honestly that's nitpicking. In a related nitpicking mood, it always cracks me up that in 24 the CTU is officially tied to the CIA in the background info, while in the real world the CIA is explicitly prohibited from operating domestically.

Now, as for Cerberus. If we look at it as an intelligence agency, you're right. Except, it's pretty clear both from it's internal structure (as EDI discribes it), and from their tactics in ME1, they're a terrorist organization, and that is their reputation. Intelligence agencies don't operate cellular structures like this, they use hierarchical ones, the reason is, a cell structure is impossible to oversee. As an official function of government this is a fatal flaw. When something goes wrong, there's nowhere to lay the blame except on the organization as a whole. (This isn't to say that intel agencies don't use cell structures at the operations level, they do, to compartmentalize information, but the cells are kept strictly accountable. Something that structurally doesn't happen in Cerberus.)

Cerberus is a well funded, well trained, terrorist organization. Terrorism in segmented cells operating in the interests of a state IS another form of statecraft, all the way out in the mean and gritty territory, but as a general rule terrorist organizations like Cerberus cannot function as governmental organs, they must be autonomous.

On the surface, you're right, Cerberus looks convincing, there's enough moving parts, and varying ideologies that you could have a plausable system. But it starts to fall apart when you understand how poorly organized it really is. Which stands at odds with the size and funding scale that it recieves.

 

[Nomanslander]

In my opinion there's only a certain amount of new content a sequel to a game could possibly introduce realistically. Like in Mass Effect 1, how come we never heard of Asari Justicars? Or Omega? Or the Bloodpack or either crime syndicates? Or Cerberus and the Illusive man? Being a fan of both games, I'm surprised no one asked this before. Comments?

When do you ever get the full story of everything that happens in a fictional world, even the real world, in one sitting.

Did you know that in Yokohama, Japan, there's an American aircraft carrier station there called the USS George Washington, and it's nuclear? Yeah it replaced the USS Kitty Hawk a couple of years back even though there were major protests among the Japanese that a nuclear vessel had no right to be there?

You see, you might have just learned something new, and just because you didn't know before doesn't mean it's unrealistic...0o

 

[Always_Remain]

I agree with both of you. The novel thing is ridiculous. I'm afraid to even touch a copy. I almost agree with you completely actually Starke. The quality in ME2's writing is nowhere near as good as ME1, which in general was a little on the shaky side. Bioware ARE full of themselves. All the fans need to stop ass kissing and tell them like it is. I mean don't get me wrong I like the game but as I examine ME2 there is a considerable amount of problems with the writing and general logic.

Spoiler: Mass Effect 2 major plot point Spoiler

Like Shepard should have blown off the Collector's main gun and engines when he went aboard the derelict Collector ship. Even if TIM says the ship is offline Shepard shouldn't risk trusting him 100%. Of course that would of killed a good chunk of game play and exposition. Sort of.

Bioware needs to get their heads out of their asses and pick the shit out of their noses because if ME3 is anything like ME2 there will be disappointment. (consider that I'm very tired while typing this so sorry for the errors or nonsensical bullshit.)

The nonsensical bullshit quota in your post is far lower than anyone else's in this thread, myself included. You're saying the same things I've been saying for most of a year now, and it's creeping me out. As a complete non-sequitor, when you said "TIM" for a second all I could think of was the character from Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail, (which would make the illusive man far more amusing.)

The only thing I can really add is, if ME3 follows in step with 2, there will be disappointment among people like us. The masses will continue to consume it mindlessly and pray at it's alter. Honestly I predicted that based on DAO, ME2's writing would be bad enough that people would rebel. ME2's writing is worse than I expected, and they're still getting praised to hell and back.

It's sad, I'm sitting here remembering Black Isle fondly. And realizing just how fucked up the western RPG market is when Bioware is releasing crap like this, and most of the people playing it have never even heard of games like Deus Ex or Planescape. (And wouldn't have heard of Fallout if not for Bethesda.)

Hey. I did have a PC in the days of the 90's. Plus I wasn't even old to understand basic writing concepts. (maybe some) So Fallout 3 introduced me to the franchise and I'd really like to play the original and it's predecessor. Looks like a real RPG.(even though I enjoy 3 lol)I'm happy the old devs are tackling New Vegas.

BUT, regarding Bioware, I think they really need to hire more skilled writers because The jump of quality from Mass Effect to DA:O is fucking staggering. I bet a guy like you could out write half their staff. They need to stop focusing so heavily on game, even though it's important, and really improve the writing. Hell they could keep the same exact combat from ME2 with a few bells and whistles, give back the strong leveling system (Seriously), expand the inventory a little but not as much as ME1, improve the writing a lot and boom. Great game.They'll have a good game. Probably.

 

[GruntOwner]

The other piece that supports that ME2 is off reservation, is the collectors. Absolutly no mentione of them whatsoever in 1. They're a fresh addition that bioware didn't plan for in the first game. This could have been done with litterally two lines of dialog, but they hadn't thought them up, because they weren't part of the plan. Certainly not the reveal about them. That was all Bioware BSing out their ass.

Have you ever heard of Saint George? Yes, this is actually going somewhere.