Your atheism explains your pessimism, come to the light my brother in Christ.NubletInc said:
Joking...
Personal Opinion on Religion (Atheist View)
- Thread starter NubletInc
- Start date
Recommended Videos
Joking...
Can't we all just agree that no one cares about any one else's point of view on religion, unless maybe it agrees with theirs?
Ahh.. I would say that theology actually deals with definitions of existence. Concepts like justice, morality, ethics, beauty etc which defy any form of scientific study. Those kinds of things are generally left up to religion or at least up to belief systems. Is 'moral' something 'real'? If it is "in a sense" then what sense? If it is not real then why have morals?lazy_bum said:
perryman93, please do shut up. You are making carbon-based life forms look stupid.perryman93 said:
Science does not contradict god, it contradicts literal interpretations of certain religious claims. Many scientists believed in god in the past and many continue to do so.perryman93 said:
The "kettle rubbish" is about you evangelising that your own belief system is the correct one, and that everyone elses is delusional. You sound just like one of those insane religious nutcases screaming that evolution is a lie.
True, but I think Infinity is kind of an awkward concept to apply to God as I can think of no reason as to why He would have to adhere to any of its rules. But I don't really know much about infinity, so I could be dead wrong.lazy_bum said:
And don't worry, if I didn't want my points challenged I wouldn't be posting them on an internet forum
.
i humbly apologize, i get sorta angry and lose the ability to construct an credible argument!!! i will calm down i promise!!!!the antithesis said:
Actually, I would say that God giving us choice is the ultimate form of love. What good is our lives if we are forced to do whatever God wants? God wants us to express our love to him by choosing to obey his commandments.Booze Zombie said:
All of that being said, I do believe in a higher power. I don't think that physics and science just happened, but that something had to start them. All of that said, I am still a religious person who believes that this higher power is consciously making these decisions. I do not put the whole of my faith on any book or organization (though I most align with Judaism) for several reasons. First of all, I believe man made the church and is responsible for all copies of texts. I do not rely on humans to not abuse power nor do I trust some other human to correctly interpret the words of God for me. 2) I do not believe in the obsessive or egotistical God that everyone seems to think of. I hardly think that anything responsible for creating an entire universe cares that much about what each individual thinks about him. I honestly do not think any God would care if a man is a Catholic, a Muslim or a Jew as long as the person lead a decent life. On that same idea, I do not believe that God cares about little thing in the world. Shit happens. I don't think he is out there conspiring over every little detail. 3) I have just had a bad experience with organized religions. I hate to say this, but along with not trusting people in general to correctly interpret the words of God, my individual experiences have left a sour taste in my mouth over organized religion, mostly because of shallow people thinking that by being part of the organization, that makes them good although they still act like dicks.
perryman93 said:
Where is your scientific proof that there is no life after death?perryman93 said:
sorry i got a bit carried away i just dislike the thought of not being in control, that their is some higher being!! and i know that many scientists do not believe and i do not want to force my beliefs on anyone else !! sorry again!!!!cuddly_tomato said:
"In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.":- Gautama Buddha.perryman93 said:
He's chilled out and apologised. Good on the dude.j0frenzy said:
if you cant remember anything pre- your birth, how can you remember anything post- your death??j0frenzy said:
If God doesn't care about what an individual thinks about him, why should he care about those individuals at all?j0frenzy said:
"That guy just murdered 5 children... but I'm a galactic being that can create worlds and alter the fabric of reality, those children were like dust mites to me, that man like an ant. Why should I care?"
I believe that there is a higher power beyond our understanding, however the details of that higher power are unknown.
Arranging my ideas about life:
I am so ground to myself, that the games of those Brains that are playing god, are not mine.
I found my way out of my own lies and i dont share the mythomania of godplayers and their believers. I am good connected to our central brain, not yet perfect, but good enough, not to need a brain, that needs a devil, responsible for his mistakes. Maybe some of these brains call me "the devil in Person", but that's not my problem. I think, we all are here to learn understanding other beings, so i can not leave a chance for a misunderstanding by believing something, that someone can not explain to me.
The levels god and downwards are only some kind of school, to learn to live freedom without disturbing our universal peace.
I think, kids, who were lying notorious, we fullfilled their false pretenses, to find out, whether they search their consciences, got to big for their boots by believing what they tell gets true and believe about theirselves they are gods.
And now its time to show these Kids, what they have done, hoping, now they are educable to good humans.
I will tell you something about my sight of love and god.
At first we all were connected to a central brain and there was truth and this is free love. We all were good, made mistakes, learned and corrected them.(Paradise, translated in german is Paradies, this i write "Paar A Dies" back in english: pair A this). With the first lie or misunderstanding some began to believe in a god (yes only one letter less from good)and this brain told its believers, it makes no mistakes and that they only have to believe in it and cut them so from our first connections. Then some brains wanted to get more than others for less doing for us all (girls, material things and so on). With every wrong information they gave to their believers, they themselves were cut, according to it, from our central connection and our schizophrenic live began. So most of us are believing in something or somebody and live the examples we feel true. We never see how the first lived in love together, what they felt to our world (representing our manifested central brain) and the highest level in goodfeeling (love) we can reach, is the level, this brain has, we believe in.
You see, the best feeling for a woman or man, believing in god, is the feeling of this one, which "makes no mistakes". But the problem is, this is the first mistake. Living these examples through generations let us degenerate to this stupid liars, many of us are now (not knowing about the mechanism, but misusing it). You see what i mean, one point to the next point doubles the mistakes and according to this, leads away from the truth. So, these ones, who are not critical enough, to ask for something, they dont understand, because believing is the easier way, or made uncritical using alcool, drugs or some kind of pills are so far away from love, that they only can understand as right, what their parents or friends live. And when you set at this level the examle, i began on top, you see whats going on in the directions that began under there: All have the same initial point: A Brain misusing the funktionality of our system to use others to live on their expenses.
Yes and we all are lazy and want to live good. So when someone had in his or her youth succes with lies or crying to get something, why should they change this behavior.
Now set someone like this in the starting point of our examle-------- you know whats going on. I think the only way back to love, how it was at first, is to become totally true to oneself, to the next around, and so on and never believing something, that someone explains, until i understand how it works. With one, who can explain and you understand, i guess, in this Moment you feel love and if someone cannot explain what he wants from you, because it lasts to long, to explain, or wants you to believe something you cannot understand, there is not the true love. But dont forget the other side: Explain your conversational partner, what you want or not, until there is no more question. Maybe in such a dialogue, you begin to feel love, you never knew before. When you give up, because its to much to explain, you know, you dont want love (the same in the other direction).
So dont forget, the levels god and downwards are only a school, to get the perfect freedom.
I am so ground to myself, that the games of those Brains that are playing god, are not mine.
I found my way out of my own lies and i dont share the mythomania of godplayers and their believers. I am good connected to our central brain, not yet perfect, but good enough, not to need a brain, that needs a devil, responsible for his mistakes. Maybe some of these brains call me "the devil in Person", but that's not my problem. I think, we all are here to learn understanding other beings, so i can not leave a chance for a misunderstanding by believing something, that someone can not explain to me.
The levels god and downwards are only some kind of school, to learn to live freedom without disturbing our universal peace.
I think, kids, who were lying notorious, we fullfilled their false pretenses, to find out, whether they search their consciences, got to big for their boots by believing what they tell gets true and believe about theirselves they are gods.
And now its time to show these Kids, what they have done, hoping, now they are educable to good humans.
I will tell you something about my sight of love and god.
At first we all were connected to a central brain and there was truth and this is free love. We all were good, made mistakes, learned and corrected them.(Paradise, translated in german is Paradies, this i write "Paar A Dies" back in english: pair A this). With the first lie or misunderstanding some began to believe in a god (yes only one letter less from good)and this brain told its believers, it makes no mistakes and that they only have to believe in it and cut them so from our first connections. Then some brains wanted to get more than others for less doing for us all (girls, material things and so on). With every wrong information they gave to their believers, they themselves were cut, according to it, from our central connection and our schizophrenic live began. So most of us are believing in something or somebody and live the examples we feel true. We never see how the first lived in love together, what they felt to our world (representing our manifested central brain) and the highest level in goodfeeling (love) we can reach, is the level, this brain has, we believe in.
You see, the best feeling for a woman or man, believing in god, is the feeling of this one, which "makes no mistakes". But the problem is, this is the first mistake. Living these examples through generations let us degenerate to this stupid liars, many of us are now (not knowing about the mechanism, but misusing it). You see what i mean, one point to the next point doubles the mistakes and according to this, leads away from the truth. So, these ones, who are not critical enough, to ask for something, they dont understand, because believing is the easier way, or made uncritical using alcool, drugs or some kind of pills are so far away from love, that they only can understand as right, what their parents or friends live. And when you set at this level the examle, i began on top, you see whats going on in the directions that began under there: All have the same initial point: A Brain misusing the funktionality of our system to use others to live on their expenses.
Yes and we all are lazy and want to live good. So when someone had in his or her youth succes with lies or crying to get something, why should they change this behavior.
Now set someone like this in the starting point of our examle-------- you know whats going on. I think the only way back to love, how it was at first, is to become totally true to oneself, to the next around, and so on and never believing something, that someone explains, until i understand how it works. With one, who can explain and you understand, i guess, in this Moment you feel love and if someone cannot explain what he wants from you, because it lasts to long, to explain, or wants you to believe something you cannot understand, there is not the true love. But dont forget the other side: Explain your conversational partner, what you want or not, until there is no more question. Maybe in such a dialogue, you begin to feel love, you never knew before. When you give up, because its to much to explain, you know, you dont want love (the same in the other direction).
So dont forget, the levels god and downwards are only a school, to get the perfect freedom.
All the concepts mentioned can be explained as a product of the human mind along with the social values the have built up around around them from a long long history of trial an error and are still constantly changing and being redifined by interacting with other minds and the world around us and are taught and reinforced to us from a very early age. I think that the main reason that religion deals with Justice, ethics and morals is twofold.cuddly_tomato said:
1. that in primitive cultures when alot more was unexplained than it was now, the smarter members of societies realised that it would be alot easier to get populations to accept thesevalues by saying, 'our god decrees this to be the way we should act.' Rather than, ' I think it would be a nice idea if we acted like this.'
2. Over the Generations it has become so ingrained in our cultures that we forgot that a person is capable of acting for the greater good of society on his own inicitve rather than 'It is this way because it is.'
Everything else is, as I said, a factor of the current Social dynamic etc, in 50 years our definition of beauty may be compleltly different to what it is today.
As to whether morals are real or not i would have to say that morals are as real as the society of the time to dictate them to be.
And at the risk of sounding petty, which i assure you isn't my intention, it appears beauty can be explained by science. http://www.aolhealth.com/healthy-living/beauty-skin-care/science-perfect-face
I am a Christian. But God is not an excuse to not bother and understand things. Actually, at Christian Universities they look at the scientific as, mostly, fact (I know because my brother goes to one). It's not an attempt to explain what we can't understand or what we don't want to accept. It's not an excuse to give up responsibility.
Actually, in true Christianity, one should be more conscientious of the world around oneself than any other. True Christians care about people and take more time to help and improve everything we can. It's a choice, not some prescribed role in a cosmic play. Everything we do is choice. There is no destiny, there is no preset future. There is only what we choose to do and what we choose to follow.
In the end, if I am wrong and there is no God, what did it hurt to believe there was? It actually makes me more willing to help other people. If there is no God, there is no consequence in the end. If there is a God, there's a major consequence. That's not why I believe He exists.
I believe he exists because of the events that led me to that conclusion throughout my lifetime. Things like...when I was 15, I was almost raped. Seriously, two guys had me on my knees and were going to force me to do very unpleasant things. I prayed for deliverance and God saved me.
My brother had a chronic illness, something that really cannot be cured unless you basically take your entire digestive track out of your body. That's the only way it can be cured, supposedly. Medicine wasn't working. It was looking bad. You know all they had to do? Take out his colon. After that he was supposed to be in the hospital through Christmas (it was Dec. 14 or 15, I think). Two days later the doctor came in and said, "well, you can go home now if you want."
I have other stories, many including life-threatening circumstances but I won't go on here.
Actually, in true Christianity, one should be more conscientious of the world around oneself than any other. True Christians care about people and take more time to help and improve everything we can. It's a choice, not some prescribed role in a cosmic play. Everything we do is choice. There is no destiny, there is no preset future. There is only what we choose to do and what we choose to follow.
In the end, if I am wrong and there is no God, what did it hurt to believe there was? It actually makes me more willing to help other people. If there is no God, there is no consequence in the end. If there is a God, there's a major consequence. That's not why I believe He exists.
I believe he exists because of the events that led me to that conclusion throughout my lifetime. Things like...when I was 15, I was almost raped. Seriously, two guys had me on my knees and were going to force me to do very unpleasant things. I prayed for deliverance and God saved me.
My brother had a chronic illness, something that really cannot be cured unless you basically take your entire digestive track out of your body. That's the only way it can be cured, supposedly. Medicine wasn't working. It was looking bad. You know all they had to do? Take out his colon. After that he was supposed to be in the hospital through Christmas (it was Dec. 14 or 15, I think). Two days later the doctor came in and said, "well, you can go home now if you want."
I have other stories, many including life-threatening circumstances but I won't go on here.
Since everyone is posting their views again, here's mine I guess:
I don't think I'm quite as certain of the non-existence of god as I
come off, but my reasoning is like this.... Incidentally, this opener
is paraphrased from the novel Sphere by Michael Crichton. In that
novel, the topic was life on other planets.
The probably for the existence of any creator god as described in any
of the major religions can be expressed as a function of there being an
entity that is high than Man (A), that this of sufficient ability to
have been able to make the universe (B), and this being is actually
aware of mankind (C), that this being cares about the plight of mankind
(D), this being is able to have an effect on our lives (E), That this
being actually does have an effect (F), that an afterlife exists (G),
that this being has any control over this afterlife (H), that this
being has any control over this afterlife (I), that these plans include
us in any way (J).
A x B x C x D x E x F x G x H x I x J = X
The problem is, we cannot compute this formula because we have no
facts. We have to guess at each and every one of these variables. So
it's just as easy to guess there is a god exactly like the one in the
bible or the qur'an or the torah or whatever book you choose. But
it's also just as easy to guess that there is no god at all.
So we can't have any objective measure of god. We can only be
subjective about it. This may be why I give christian apologetics,
especially half-assed ones, a rough
time. Because they're trying to prove objectively something that can
only be subjective.
So speaking subjectively, that is in my own personal experience and opinion, does a god exist?
I suppose that variable A is possible, some sort of of higher being
exists. Perhaps as removed from us as we are from microscopic organisms.
But here's the thing about that. Admitting that much is sort of the
christian apologetic's goal. To get you to admit there may be a god but
then ask "but who is this god?" "Oh, let me tell you," he chortles as
he pulls out his bible.
It's a leap to go from "there is possibly a being or beings greater
than man" to being able to say anything about this being. No less a leap
than if the microbes that live in my intestine make any claims about me.
This means debating some mere higher being, particularly without any
evidence present, is pointless. For the debate to have any meaning, it
needs to be an active god. A loving god. A god who can deliver eternal
life. (although an after life is a related but separate debate in
itself). Because if it isn't this sort of god, then there's no point to
even worrying about it's very existence. For the most part, it does not
effect us and we do not effect them.
So, speaking of my own experience, is there a loving god?
I don't know, but I don't think so.
What would it take to change my mind?
I quote Pulp Fiction:
"I mean, it could be that God stopped the bullets, or He changed
Coke to Pepsi, He found my fucking car keys. You don't judge shit like
this based on merit. Now, whether or not what we experienced was an
'according to Hoyle' miracle is insignificant. What is significant is
that I felt the touch of God. God got involved."
While god suddenly appearing in the sky and addressing the world in a
booming voice would be impressive, it doesn't have to be anything so
drastic. Personal proof could be anything so long as one feels the
touch of god.
Now, I've been around a while and have even had experiences that cannot
be easily explained, I guess you could call them paranormal. But never
in all my years have I felt the touch of god. Never.
Now, this flies in the face of the loving god idea, particularly
christianity or maybe I'm just singling christianity out since I had to
deal with that religion growing up... not "raised as," the religion was
always just something I had to deal with. Like a sore that never
properly heals.
So why haven't I felt the touch of god?
Perhaps it's unable to reveal itself to me. If so, then it's not omnipotent.
Perhaps it's able but it is still trying to find a way to do so. If so, then it's not omniscient.
Perhaps it is able and knows exactly what to do but simply chooses not to. If so, then it's not a loving god.
This is goes against christianity as well since there's a real sense of
urgency since you could die any minute. The future is uncertain, you
are not promised tomorrow. Best to be saved now. Yet god takes its
sweet time getting me to believe.
I suppose it could be argued that god, being omniscient, knows when
I'll die and will reveal himself before that but that's kind of a
slippery slope. I mean what benefit is there to worshiping god? (a verb
I never understood. I mean, what do you do? I once clicked a link for a
video on cock worshiping, but I've never seen anyone do that with
Jesus, unless you count Linda Blair in the Exorcist)
What benefit is there? None. God "causes his sun to rise on the evil
and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous."
(Matthew 5:45)
When you pray, what happens? Sometime you're answered yes, sometimes no.
It's usually explained as "god moves in mysterious ways," but if that's
true, then god is moving in the exact manner necessary to look like
it's not even there and the events where its followers claim have its
influence could be easily dismissed as just random chance.
So, I don't believe in any loving god. Higher beings may exist, but
they don't seem to be taking any action in our little lives. No more
than I takes in the live of my intestinal fauna (although I sometimes
take antibiotics and murder them all! Mu-wu-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!) So we can
safely ignore it the way it ignores us.
I don't think I'm quite as certain of the non-existence of god as I
come off, but my reasoning is like this.... Incidentally, this opener
is paraphrased from the novel Sphere by Michael Crichton. In that
novel, the topic was life on other planets.
The probably for the existence of any creator god as described in any
of the major religions can be expressed as a function of there being an
entity that is high than Man (A), that this of sufficient ability to
have been able to make the universe (B), and this being is actually
aware of mankind (C), that this being cares about the plight of mankind
(D), this being is able to have an effect on our lives (E), That this
being actually does have an effect (F), that an afterlife exists (G),
that this being has any control over this afterlife (H), that this
being has any control over this afterlife (I), that these plans include
us in any way (J).
A x B x C x D x E x F x G x H x I x J = X
The problem is, we cannot compute this formula because we have no
facts. We have to guess at each and every one of these variables. So
it's just as easy to guess there is a god exactly like the one in the
bible or the qur'an or the torah or whatever book you choose. But
it's also just as easy to guess that there is no god at all.
So we can't have any objective measure of god. We can only be
subjective about it. This may be why I give christian apologetics,
especially half-assed ones, a rough
time. Because they're trying to prove objectively something that can
only be subjective.
So speaking subjectively, that is in my own personal experience and opinion, does a god exist?
I suppose that variable A is possible, some sort of of higher being
exists. Perhaps as removed from us as we are from microscopic organisms.
But here's the thing about that. Admitting that much is sort of the
christian apologetic's goal. To get you to admit there may be a god but
then ask "but who is this god?" "Oh, let me tell you," he chortles as
he pulls out his bible.
It's a leap to go from "there is possibly a being or beings greater
than man" to being able to say anything about this being. No less a leap
than if the microbes that live in my intestine make any claims about me.
This means debating some mere higher being, particularly without any
evidence present, is pointless. For the debate to have any meaning, it
needs to be an active god. A loving god. A god who can deliver eternal
life. (although an after life is a related but separate debate in
itself). Because if it isn't this sort of god, then there's no point to
even worrying about it's very existence. For the most part, it does not
effect us and we do not effect them.
So, speaking of my own experience, is there a loving god?
I don't know, but I don't think so.
What would it take to change my mind?
I quote Pulp Fiction:
"I mean, it could be that God stopped the bullets, or He changed
Coke to Pepsi, He found my fucking car keys. You don't judge shit like
this based on merit. Now, whether or not what we experienced was an
'according to Hoyle' miracle is insignificant. What is significant is
that I felt the touch of God. God got involved."
While god suddenly appearing in the sky and addressing the world in a
booming voice would be impressive, it doesn't have to be anything so
drastic. Personal proof could be anything so long as one feels the
touch of god.
Now, I've been around a while and have even had experiences that cannot
be easily explained, I guess you could call them paranormal. But never
in all my years have I felt the touch of god. Never.
Now, this flies in the face of the loving god idea, particularly
christianity or maybe I'm just singling christianity out since I had to
deal with that religion growing up... not "raised as," the religion was
always just something I had to deal with. Like a sore that never
properly heals.
So why haven't I felt the touch of god?
Perhaps it's unable to reveal itself to me. If so, then it's not omnipotent.
Perhaps it's able but it is still trying to find a way to do so. If so, then it's not omniscient.
Perhaps it is able and knows exactly what to do but simply chooses not to. If so, then it's not a loving god.
This is goes against christianity as well since there's a real sense of
urgency since you could die any minute. The future is uncertain, you
are not promised tomorrow. Best to be saved now. Yet god takes its
sweet time getting me to believe.
I suppose it could be argued that god, being omniscient, knows when
I'll die and will reveal himself before that but that's kind of a
slippery slope. I mean what benefit is there to worshiping god? (a verb
I never understood. I mean, what do you do? I once clicked a link for a
video on cock worshiping, but I've never seen anyone do that with
Jesus, unless you count Linda Blair in the Exorcist)
What benefit is there? None. God "causes his sun to rise on the evil
and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous."
(Matthew 5:45)
When you pray, what happens? Sometime you're answered yes, sometimes no.
It's usually explained as "god moves in mysterious ways," but if that's
true, then god is moving in the exact manner necessary to look like
it's not even there and the events where its followers claim have its
influence could be easily dismissed as just random chance.
So, I don't believe in any loving god. Higher beings may exist, but
they don't seem to be taking any action in our little lives. No more
than I takes in the live of my intestinal fauna (although I sometimes
take antibiotics and murder them all! Mu-wu-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!) So we can
safely ignore it the way it ignores us.
Yep. But their origins being explained really doesn't explain them away, nor does it make them any less valuble. Ever seen the film "I, Robot", the one with Will Smith? You know the decision the robot takes that makes Will Smith hate robots? To save him instead of the kid because his chances are better? That is logic, but it isn't necessarily the 'right' decision.lazy_bum said:
This is the thing - religion, to me, is ridiculous. Really. Heaven? Hell? Big demons putting pokers up your arse for all eternity? But then so is reductionist atheism. There was nothing, and then the nothing exploded, and at some point it's all going to collapse again and it's all for bugger all? Then again, I find agnostism to also be ridiculous. We are all here, on a small, spinning piece of grit orbiting an explosion, and nobody thinks that's kinda odd?
But ridiculous isn't the same as stupid. South Park is ridiculous, but it's very clever. Gordon Browns plan to stop knife crime by banning knives isn't ridiculous, but it is very stupid (people will break bottles.. duh).
So I just accept that it is all ridiculous. Life is ridiculous, my own belief systems (which are spiritual but non-theistic) are ridiculous. But I forgive myself and others for having them, whatever they are. To think that I know better than everyone else would make me extremely narcissisistic. To not question the beliefs of others would make me a mindless sheep. Allowing oneself to be a bit ridiculous and illogical is a good thing, a world where everything was based on logic would be a cold and uncompassionate place.