Piracy Outpacing Sales by 4:1, Says U.K. Game Body

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Baresark

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this isnt my name said:
Baresark said:
this isnt my name said:
Baresark said:
this isnt my name said:
Baresark said:
this isnt my name said:
Baresark said:
this isnt my name said:
I love how many of them will say "oh I am poor" or some shit excuse for piracy.
its either that or "hurr those devs didnt do everything i like they dont deserve my money" yet they still make a good enough game to invest time in apparently.
God I hate pirates.
Just for fun:
There is actually a lot of statistics that link poverty and crime.
Difference between people commiting crimes to get money for thier family/food/rent and a luxery item. Games are luxery items.
Just to keep it going:
Now you are confusing morals and law. There is no moral basis for laws in general, the moral basis exists separate from the laws that enforce them. It's not excusable to steal, no matter the situation. And the vast majority of the time, people who habitually commit immoral crimes such as theft do not do it because they need to feed or provide for anyone. People do not habitually steal food or any necessary item. Take post Hurricane Katrina and looters as an example. The majority didn't steal items to survive, only luxury items they wanted. The same can be said for violent break out during the Watts Riots way back in the day. Looters stole lots of things, the majority of the time nothing necessary, but only items they wanted.
And ? Some people do steal what they need. I dont knpw how looter taking TVs and crap proves that wrong. If you steal something you dont need its wrong, simple as. And stealing something you need is only justifiable if you cant get it legally e.g if someone in a 3rd world contry steas food to feed thier family, thats fine. But piritaing a game is never needed, therefore priacy is always wrong. I have no idea where you were going with this discussion when replying because you can never justift Piracy, so it didnt really have a point.
You missed my point. You cannot condone theft in one case and not condone it in another case. Both cases are morally reprehensible. If I live in the that third world country, and I worked for 17 hours for that loaf of bread, then my neighbor steals it from me. It is morally reprehensible that he did that. Then I cannot feed myself and my family so I can work for 17 more hours for another loaf of bread. I bring up the other stuff only because the vast majority of the time, theft is not for necessities, and the few times it is does not excuse the act.

In the grand scheme of things, you had said that the excuse of not having money is not a reason for piracy. I simply said that there is a link between poverty and crime rates. You then said it was excusable for theft if it was to feed your family. I said it's not really excusable because theft in any situation is immoral.

AND.... SCENE! Haha, I'm just having fun. Don't be insulted.
There are no absolutes. Thats like saying killing is always wrong despite if someone did it in self defence.
That is a completely different case. I am a firm believer in the axiom of non-violence. This philosophy dictates that you do no harm to others unless they have tried to harm you, then you defend yourself as far as you honestly see fit. Then there are other circumstances to consider as well in regards to that, but those are mostly personal, such as whether killing them was necessary and such things, but that is for you conscience to decide. Theft is always theft though. You must take something that belongs to another, that is always morally reprehensible. Theft is an absolute because it is always taking from others. Others may not eat because you are eating. Self defense is way different, and if you want to put the word of law into it, some places don't even allow you to really defend yourself.
Oh please, some people have so much money it wouldnt change anything e.g bankers who get millions in bonueses. should some person starve when they can get money and some people would be no worse. And how is taking a life any different to a starving person stealing bread ?
Are you implying killing can be justified but stealing breadto survive isnt ?
You cant say killing isnt absolute but theft is. Both can be connected to a persons survival, so both can change.
Obviously we have different moral views on absolute rules, so no point in contining the conversation, because you wont convince me and I probablly wont convince you.
Once again, both are very different. Theft and killing are two completely different things. Haha, you are right, I have had much fun debating this with you, but neither of us will convince the other. And it would appear you are fresh out of Logos anyway. Thanks though, it has been fun.

In general, I doubt our morals are different at all though, I am sure just decided to take the point we decided to take. In reality, we might very well see each others points in the real world.
 

Unrulyhandbag

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this isnt my name said:
Unrulyhandbag said:
this isnt my name said:
There are no absolutes. Thats like saying killing is always wrong despite if someone did it in self defence.
I'll quite happily say that. Killing another intelligent being is wrong - even if you save your life you do it at the expense of another. Better to die with clean hands than live with that , it's utter unconscionable.
Hypothetically the man you could kill would go on to kill you and several others.
You are responsible for those deaths. Because you could have prevented it. Just like its partially you fault if you can stop someone killing you but chose not to stop them. SOmeone dies either way, if you choose not to try and stop them then you allowed yourself to die, which is pretty much suicide imo. Damned if you do damned if you dont. . But now we are going into death pentalty territory. Pretty far from the original topic.
No, the man is responsible for his own actions, not I; I cannot know if he is going to kill unless he is also threatening them and I can only hope to take action that may save them without killing anyone.
I would be missed not held responsible. Suicide is not involved if he killed me I was killed, you seem to not only look down on pacifism but hold it on no regard whatsoever. The death penalty... socially that's up to the society to weigh the pros and cons but morally it's wrong
And any inteligent being who tries to kill an innocent is not worth saving.
Yes we have drifted but not so far as it seems (and there was more to my post).
If an act can be said to be morally wrong and if the laws of society forbid it then there is no situation in which people should commit it. But people break every law moral or otherwise. If we need to understand why in this case they do that then it may involve breaking down to the fundamentals of what constitutes criminal action. Maybe we all need to take a 'Bruce Wayne' style world trip to get the real angle on things, after all I didn't become a pacifist without witnessing killing.
 

Kafloobop

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I always find it entertaining that whenever the word "pirating" even shows up on this site you can always count on a bunch of people to jump up and start piling up comments defending it. Even though a lot of the escapist contributors have expressed their disapproval of it.
 

Popido

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I personally hope that the gaming industry dies.
chozo_hybrid said:
I think more people need to watch the Extra Credits video on piracy, I found myself agreeing with everything they said.
Write angry letters when games suck and support good games when they're worth it? Honestly, there wasnt much connection with piracy, expect the small message to industry. :/
 

(LK)

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It's worth saying as many times as possible that the lobbying arm of software publishers typically cite research making assumptions that have been debunked more times than they've been asserted. The entire nature of industry estimates of piracy is at best founded on poor statistics, and at worst (sometimes provably) intentionally deceitful.

If one wants to find reliable statistical results pertinent to a political issue, they generally don't go to the lobbying arm of one of the vested parties and ask them for them. This is because most people are capable of knowing at a glance that this is brazenly stupid, and they will be given horribly biased answers. Certainly, you don't do the above and then accept the data unquestioningly, because that swerves from painfully naive to boldly ignorant.

People really need to realize that quoting a lobbying group's study of this issue is no less absurd than quoting a coalition of pirates. I know you wouldn't take the latter seriously, so why sway to the other extreme and think it's somehow different because the people doing it are being paid salaries?

I can't say to which direction their results will err, but I can safely say that these lobbying groups' studies have issues and that they have been informed, by credible people, of these issues. Typically they willfully ignore those issues and continue to make them integral parts of future studies, because any errors involved typically sway those results in a favorable direction and are therefore wanted errors (less generously, we call those "lies").

I'm really tired of seeing these studies quoted and just restated as being assumed as fact. It doesn't matter what side of the issue you're on, you're best served by making sure you question any data that claims to be scientific when it comes from a source with an obvious vested interest.

ShadowKirby said:
Low Key said:
Losing sales due to people who wouldn't buy the game in the first place? Okay, Michael, whatever you say...
Why are they playing the game if they had no intention of buying it?
The economics term for this is "marginal utility". It's a measure of how much use something gives you in terms of the pricing.

You wouldn't go to a deli and buy a sandwich if you were sort of hungry and it was $5. The sandwich has limited utility to you and you do not estimate the price to be worth it.

If you were sort of hungry and had a coupon for a free one, you'd probably drop in for a sandwich. The sandwich has limited utility, but that limited utility is free, and so since it costs you nothing it's totally worth it in your mind to go anyways.

A lot of pirates are playing a whole buffet of games. If they only played games they paid for they would only be buying the ones they were particularly excited about because the marginal utility of a full-price new game is a lot lower. If they don't have to pay to play a game, they will download and play anything that is remotely interesting. The vast majority of these games they pirate, if you ask them and get a candid answer, are games that they would simply have elected to do without if they paid for every game, because they'd rather spend their money on something they're certain they really want.

In fact it isn't all that uncommon for people to buy the games they know they want and go pirate something they had a passing interest in when they feel like a bit of a change of pace. Now if it turns out they really love the game then they would have bought it if piracy wasn't an option, yes, but that also assumes they would have tried it (this is why demos are important, especially if you're not making a AAA game). The fact of the matter is something that most people just aren't humble enough to accept willingly: that the issue is complicated and there's infintely more that they don't comprehend than what they do comprehend.

It's really pretty obvious if you take a moment to think about the question rather than going with a kneejerk assessment.
 

shemoanscazrex3

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So what happens if you weren't going to buy the game at all, how is that actually money lost? No one was going to get the money anyway but please do note I'm not a pirate just something I'm wondering
 

Tiagojdferreira

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ShadowKirby said:
Low Key said:
Losing sales due to people who wouldn't buy the game in the first place? Okay, Michael, whatever you say...
Why are they playing the game if they had no intention of buying it?
Like Chris Anderson points in his book free:
"Mr. Ariely did an experiment that used chocolate to dramatize the difference that a small shift in pricing could make. According to ?Cheap? he offered his subjects a choice between the 1-cent Kiss and a 26-cent Ferrero Rocher hazelnut. At those prices the test subjects were divided 40 percent to 40 percent, with 20 percent opting for neither. Then the prices came down by one penny each, and 90 percent of the subjects took the free chocolate. Only 10 percent chose the higher-priced brand."

When something is free there's no risk associated with the product, i.e., in a pirated game you do not stop to think "is this game worth it" since there's no price. When you buy a legal copy there's always a price associated, and you stop to think "is this game worth it?" and therefore you end up not buying a game that otherwise you would try. Some clients, feeling satisfied with the product, decide to contribute to the industry buy buying a game. Some don't. But if they liked the game, they all end up talking about it, generating buzz, which will end up boosting the sales (take as an example the Punch'Em game refered in this article.
 

Atmos Duality

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Lord_Jaroh said:
...so does the pirate that put up the torrent in the first place. The analogy is still accurate.
Doesn't address the payments over time that the library makes on those books/document.
Also, those books are assumed to be returned at some point. Pirates cannot (nor would they) do such a thing because they are not "borrowing" (which the library, again, pays for both initially and over time as per copyright law, and the specific agreement permits), nor are they "stealing" for that matter.

So, no. The analogy still doesn't fit.

Why? Because also assumes that the library can, at will, create a potentially infinite number of copies of any given work in a very short time; which it cannot (and certainly not legally). And that the library is the major distributor of said copies.

It is neither. That's the job of the publishers they bought their copy from.

Sgt Pepper said:
That's assuming a pirate will buy a copy of each game they pirate.
I already address this mathematical impossibility in my post.
Also, because the amount is represented by a ratio, it's assuming this proportion PER GAME COPY, not PER PERSON.
What you state is entirely possible, and in fact proof that the ethical "try and buy" pirate is not common in practice.

I'm still not convinced piracy, by and large, represents loss to the industy - at least amateur level piracy. Counterfeiting I have now doubt does, I'm not sure to what extent pirated games are passed off and sold as the actual product but I'm sure it does happen now and again.
It does not matter if the end product is sold for profit to the pirate or not.
This is a matter of incentive: By pirating a product, that person responsible automatically now has little to no incentive to pay for that product.


I think the average pirate, one who downloads off torrents or copies a disk, has to face a moral question personally over whether they think it's right to get something for free if they think it's actually worth the asking price but I don't think it's the industy destroyer it's made out to be.
It's definitely not killing the industry as it stands; even simple math proves this.
And you are totally correct about the ethical question.
It just so happens that the majority of pirates (greater than 75% by these numbers) prefer to answer that question with: "I don't care. Give me free stuff."
 

Lord_Jaroh

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Atmos Duality said:
Lord_Jaroh said:
...so does the pirate that put up the torrent in the first place. The analogy is still accurate.
Doesn't address the payments over time that the library makes on those books/document.
Also, those books are assumed to be returned at some point. Pirates cannot (nor would they) do such a thing because they are not "borrowing" (which the library, again, pays for both initially and over time as per copyright law, and the specific agreement permits), nor are they "stealing" for that matter.

So, no. The analogy still doesn't fit.

Why? Because also assumes that the library can, at will, create a potentially infinite number of copies of any given work in a very short time; which it cannot (and certainly not legally). And that the library is the major distributor of said copies.

It is neither. That's the job of the publishers they bought their copy from.
Barring the questionable legality of any action, what is the difference between: borrowing a game from a friend, borrowing a game from a library, copying a game that your friend copied onto his ftp server, grabbing a copy of a torrent file of a game?

How about buying a used copy of a game from ebay, buying a used copy of a game from a garage sale, buying a used copy of a game from your buddy or buying a used copy of a game from Gamestop?

If I obtain a copy of the Mona Lisa on my computer, am I owing the Louvre money, as I am denying them a visit to see it in person?

If I were to memorize a book and retell it to my kids, am I denying the publishers of that book money as they don't need to purchase the book now? How about if I create an artistic copy of any piece of art and hang it on my wall? Or make that same painting for my buddy since he liked it so much? How about creating a copy of a chair for my kitchen table from another that I had?

Should we have banned the printing press as it put numerous scribes out of work considering it was capable of producing any number of near perfect copies of manuscripts for a negligable cost at a relatively instant speed (compared to the old way of doing it)?

There was a time when women couldn't vote, when Black people weren't free men, when it was wrong to speak up against the church, when it was wrong to want a different future than your father. These were all laws at one point, because they "seemed right at the time". Those laws changed, as times changed, as technology changed, as people's thoughts of what is right or wrong changed. Copyright laws are outdated and wrong. They need to be changed as well.[/quote]
 

The Random One

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Wow, they should be firing fireworks. Only four bootlegs to original purchase? That's an incredibly good ratio.
 

Treblaine

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Name an electronics entertainment industry has a LOWER rate of piracy:

http://arstechnica.com/media/news/2009/01/ifpi-music-piracy-at-95-or-is-it-18.ars

That is equivalent to a 19:1 piracy rate

http://www.maxconsole.net/content.php?43590-Movie-piracy-is-18-times-the-rate-of-games-piracy

Thing is, no movie studios are desperately considering "oh no, we're not going to release this on DVD, hell no, We'll just endlessly re-release it in cinemas, there will NEVER be a home viewable version" Because that seems to be how far they are going in the games industry.

I think this news IN ITSELF is good news as unlike so many other industries, piracy is not tolerated as much in this one, a piracy rate of 80% being considered far too high.
 

Sentox6

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One small thing that always bugs me is the binary separation between piracy and a purchase.

I don't mean the debate over whether every pirated copy is a lost sale (obviously it isn't); rather, even if you take a consumer who would have purchased the game if they were unable to pirate it, what's to say they wouldn't walk into their nearest Gamestop and get the cheapest used copy available?

If they didn't want the nice case and shiny disc in the first place, it's hard to imagine a would-be pirate lumping for the retail version if a second-hand option is available...
 

BoogieManFL

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4 to 1?

Modern Warfare 2 (one of the most pirated games of 2009 I think) apparently got $550 million in the first 5 days. I've seen places that said it was pirated 4.1 to 5 million times.

Math isn't my strongest skill by far, but assuming it was $60 a copy, doesn't that figure to about 91,666,666 copies? (edit: bad math - I think I did too many zeros, I was corrected - just over 9 million.)

But I've read it sold 4.7 million copies in the FIRST DAY in the US and UK. I even saw one estimate that put it at 7 million (maybe worldwide?). So.. 4:1? Really?
 

Atmos Duality

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Lord_Jaroh said:
Barring the questionable legality of any acton, what is the difference between: borrowing a game from a friend, borrowing a game from a library, copying a game that your friend copied onto his ftp server, grabbing a copy of a torrent file of a game?

*snip*

There was a time when women couldn't vote, when Black people weren't free men, when it was wrong to speak up against the church, when it was wrong to want a different future than your father. These were all laws at one point, because they "seemed right at the time". Those laws changed, as times changed, as technology changed, as people's thoughts of what is right or wrong changed. Copyright laws are outdated and wrong. They need to be changed as well.
A nice spiel, but it's ultimately saying "Hey, it's OK to pirate ANYTHING, because The Copyright laws are unfair." since you just equated every form of lending to piracy. With that precedent in place, only an idiot would pay for, well, ANYTHING DIGITAL or equally easily replicated.

The reason software piracy is an entirely different beast is simple:
All tangible products take real effort, time and/or money to replicate. By the time you can replicate something, chances are, you're already skilled enough to make your own original, functional product (as long as you don't violate a patent, which is similar to a copyright, but more limited in span).
If I wanted to copy a particular model of say, a toaster (like your beloved chair), it would take considerable time, effort, and material to do so. Ultimately, it would probably benefit me most to just buy the damn toaster unless I really wanted to learn the procedure in the process.
You memorizing the book takes effort (serious effort), so there is still a real incentive to buy/rent the book for your family as it would save you considerable time.
Loaning/lending games/titles is in a fuzzy area because it can either act as a form of piracy in principle, or it can guarantee another sale (in the case of multiplayer games).
The logic of this example can be extended to ANY GIVEN TANGIBLE PRODUCT.

Art...is also not set in stone since there is something to be said about the quality of the reproduction of the piece. A laser printer copy might look nice, but it probably wouldn't compare to the original. Most world-famous art, however, is routinely repainted as practice for aspiring artists and usually given public license for reproduction.
It's ultimately up to the work's owner whether they want to charge for a copy or not.

Software piracy in comparison to all of that is childishly simple to commit, and thus, a new problem arose for a new age. Learning the programming, graphics, sound, and game design, then dedicating the thousands upon thousands of work-hours to create even a mediocre game simply pales in comparison to how easy it is to replicate the published end result (and when said end result is otherwise indistinguishable from the original).
The risk is minimal, the cost is as close to zero as it gets, but the payoff is potentially excellent.

Now, I do agree that Copyright laws are indeed outdated, but I must ask for an alternative; one that doesn't all but legalize every single piece of software as freeware and therefore kill the entire market.
It's clear that the current laws are abused (check out the record label companies. They regularly screw over their clients in unspeakable ways. How would you like someone taking 90% of all the profits on a piece of work they barely had a hand in making?)

We've already seen the futility of DRM, and the inept global legal system try to scare hackers and pirate sources into compliance. So it's not as though the problem can be curbed at the source without creating entirely new, and worse problems than before.

Right now, we're counting on people regularly (and blindly, given the increasingly self-destructive nature of some DRM) buying these titles to sustain the market.
Given your logic and justification, they would only buy these titles because they are not aware of the alternative.
How pathetic is it that we have to rely on gross consumer ignorance to sustain the gaming market?

If I am to believe the statistics (and knowing what I know about human nature, those statistics are likely true), most pirates are not going to act ethically. Over 3 out of 4 of them won't contribute to paying for the product.

At this time, there's no real solution short of people to just willingly stop pirating, and you can imagine how effective THAT will be. I suppose it's pointless to even argue it. If you're already pirating, nothing short of getting exceedingly unlucky and being arrested will stop you. Random nobodies on the internet certainly won't.

So unless the next response is exceedingly intelligent and rational, this conversation is done because I'm tired of trying to futility argue ethics and economics to people who don't want to listen.
 

Shale_Dirk

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BoogieManFL said:
4 to 1?

Modern Warfare 2 (one of the most pirated games of 2009 I think) apparently got $550 million in the first 5 days. I've seen places that said it was pirated 4.1 to 5 million times.

Math isn't my strongest skill by far, but assuming it was $60 a copy, doesn't that figure to about 91,666,666 copies? I doubt that many were sold so I'm not sure how they got 550 million.

But I've read it sold 4.7 million copies in the FIRST DAY in the US and UK. I even saw one estimate that put it at 7 million (maybe worldwide?). So.. 4:1? Really?
550 / 60 = 9.16

as in, 9 million, not 90 million.

Nonetheless, that's still a 1:2 ratio, not 4:1
 

thedeathscythe

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Generic Gamer said:
And we wonder why games are expensive.
Games are actually relatively cheap when you consider the amount of time used to create them, the budget used on them, the sheer amount of content on them, and not to take into account inflation. So just to be devil's advocate, I think they're realtively cheap.

That being said, we wonder why studios close down after these massive piracy figures, or lay offs are ever prevalent in this industry.