Poll: Am I a Bad Person?

[ModDom]

You're not necessarily a bad person, but it does sound a little bit harsh. Yes, these people were idiots, but they didn't deserve to die. Yes, they put others in danger, but the harm you seem to be doing is against the grieving family members, who definitely don't deserve such harsh words at such a sensitive time.

 

[darksakul]

You are completely missing the point. Nobody has said that drunk driving is ok, but that doesn't justify what basically amounts to deliberately making their bereaved innocent friend feel even worse. You seem to be assuming that the friend going around collecting money was there, which is a ridiculous assumption to make.
You're right, I wouldn't look a victim of drunk driving in the face and say I pity the driver because that would bring me down to the self righteous, compassionless, juvenile level you seem to be on.
Oh yeah, and look how big I am, I cleaned up my language first.

No, cleaning up my language is not to show how big I am, its to avoid admins from suspending my account. I can't blame the OP for a thing if I would have done worst to that fragile teen's ego.

You want to talk to me about compassion? As I said in previous post I know people who got hurt because of the stupidity others in car accidents, I lost friends, where is the compassion for them? Where is the compassion for the (potentially) other drivers and passengers who got hurt that day because of those 3 girls, there families and friends? My mother after 8 years never fully recovered for injuries (she now walks with a cane, fortunately she can still walk) she got in her car accident, where was compassion? Where is the compassion for the friends I lost, where, tell me.

For you see compassion is a luxury, that is right a freaking luxury. Companies and Corporations do not donate to charities unless they are doing well enough to take the lost of revenue (and thats assuming they get a tax write off at the end of the year). Why should an individual be any different?

You ask me to be compassionate over the idiots who threw away their lives, when other who are hurt in similar accidents, those who did nothing do not even get a notice. You tell the parents of a small child who lost their life due to a drunk driver if they have compassion for the driver? Ask them as you look square in the eyes. Watch there reaction, maybe maybe you get the rare couple who might find a spot in there hearts for the ones who took away their love ones, but those are rare and special people. Me on the other hand I have no compassion for those 3 girls, far as I see if, justice was done that day by forces none of us fully can comprehend. My only compassion for those 3 girls is for their souls in the after life and that is it.

"Juvenile"? Well by expressing my feelings and "lack of compassion" for fools make me a "juvenile", then I am proud to be called a "juvenile" by those who do not fully understand that if I gave a damn for every idiot, fool and drunk, I would be a paranoid person in the corner of my room laying in the fetal position while wearing a tin foil hat, asking for the bad men to go away.

 

[Doive]

You are completely missing the point. Nobody has said that drunk driving is ok, but that doesn't justify what basically amounts to deliberately making their bereaved innocent friend feel even worse. You seem to be assuming that the friend going around collecting money was there, which is a ridiculous assumption to make.
You're right, I wouldn't look a victim of drunk driving in the face and say I pity the driver because that would bring me down to the self righteous, compassionless, juvenile level you seem to be on.
Oh yeah, and look how big I am, I cleaned up my language first.

No, cleaning up my language is not to show how big I am, its to avoid admins from suspending my account. I can't blame the OP for a thing if I would have done worst to that fragile teen's ego.

You want to talk to me about compassion? As I said in previous post I know people who got hurt because of the stupidity others in car accidents, I lost friends, where is the compassion for them? Where is the compassion for the (potentially) other drivers and passengers who got hurt that day because of those 3 girls, there families and friends? My mother after 8 years never fully recovered for injuries (she now walks with a cane, fortunately she can still walk) she got in her car accident, where was compassion? Where is the compassion for the friends I lost, where, tell me.

For you see compassion is a luxury, that is right a freaking luxury. Companies and Corporations do not donate to charities unless they are doing well enough to take the lost of revenue (and thats assuming they get a tax write off at the end of the year). Why should an individual be any different?

You ask me to be compassionate over the idiots who threw away their lives, when other who are hurt in similar accidents, those who did nothing do not even get a notice. You tell the parents of a small child who lost their life due to a drunk driver if they have compassion for the driver? Ask them as you look square in the eyes. Watch there reaction, maybe maybe you get the rare couple who might find a spot in there hearts for the ones who took away their love ones, but those are rare and special people. Me on the other hand I have no compassion for those 3 girls, far as I see if, justice was done that day by forces none of us fully can comprehend. My only compassion for those 3 girls is for their souls in the after life and that is it.

"Juvenile"? Well by expressing my feelings and "lack of compassion" for fools make me a "juvenile", then I am proud to be called a "juvenile" by those who do not fully understand that if I gave a damn for every idiot, fool and drunk, I would be a paranoid person in the corner of my room laying in the fetal position while wearing a tin foil hat, asking for the bad men to go away.

I'm talking about compassion for the girl who has just lost one of her friends and could potentially lose two more. I said at the start of post you quoted that drunk driving is not ok, and of course it's terrible that it has hit close to home for you but all I'm saying is to not take it out on an innocent girl.

 

[Lazier Than Thou]

Also, my question did not assume any morality whatsoever. It was a question of what makes a person bad, if not being a jerk or an asshole. I submit that being a jerk or an asshole DOES make you a bad person. Bad is as bad does. Jerks and assholes do bad things, ergo...

Being a jerk does not automatically make you a bad person, I am most definatly a jerk, an arrogant, argumentitive one at that, yet I give to charity when I can, I help people when asked, I give a sympathetic ear to my freinds and family no matter how shit I feel at the time, and I would both kill and die to protect someone that didn't deserve to suffer.

But I tell people to their face that their stupid family could have killed someone and as such don't deserve my sympathy or my money and I'M a bad person?!

As you said actions determine if you are a "good" or "bad" person, but words are not action, feelings are not action.

Hell I dissagree that actions determine you deserved place on the karma meter but tyhat's a discussion for a different thread.

So telling people, to their face, that their hurt family members are stupid and don't deserve your sympathy ISN'T a bad thing? You're morally superior to people related to someone that did something stupid?

Again, I reiterate. How the girls behaved has absolutely nothing to do with your goodness or badness. YOUR actions determine YOUR goodness or badness. If they're bad for what they did it has nothing to do with your badness for doing what you did. Just because their actions were far worse has nothing to do with if you are or are not a good or a bad person.

And, by the way, listening to people you care about when they feel bad does not negate hurting people you don't care about when they feel bad. It is not a morally superior position to take that you help and care about the people you care about.

Also, it's my opinion that being an arrogant, arumentative, jerk DOES make you a bad person. So does telling off a grieving family.

If the morality of the other doesn't come in to play then killing a person that is activly trying to kill anotheer is an evil act, I know that's an extreme example but frankly your concept of good/bad is pretty fucking stupid.

That would be pretty fucking stupid if I had said, suggested, or implied ANY SUCH THING. But I didn't, therefore it's not.

You're talking about two completely different situations. In one, you're talking about relative morality wherein the bad conduct of another nullifies bad conduct to someone extraneous. In another, you're dealing directly with someone of bad conduct. Not only that, but the purpose of murdering someone to stop them from murdering someone else is to stop them in their actions. Is telling off someones family because they have a relative that did something stupid going to stop anything from happening anywhere? No, it's not.

Also, the morality of the other doesn't come into question not because they're in the right, but because what matters is YOUR actions, not someone elses. You can't be called a bad person because someone next to you shot someone else in the head. You can be called a bad person for shooting someone in the head.

I gave examples of my morality, now let's get in to the hypotheticals:

A man gives thousands to charity dayly, spends his spare time feeding the homeless personally, opens and funds homeless shelters across the country and does all this with a smile on his face and a song in his heart.
But then one day he insults someones idiot friend/family member because they through their stupidity nearly kill themselves and others.
Is this saint of a man, this man that has dedicated his life to helping others a bad person?
If you even think of saying yes don't bother, I don't have time for fools that would think that way.

This saint of a man is not the same man that told off the family member. Why do I know this? Fairly simple, because the saint cares about the lives of others and the man that told of the family does not. Telling someone off does not help, it hurts.

But let's take your example and extrapolate, shall we? Let's say he was having a bad day and snapped. If that's the case, he'd feel bad about it and apologize. After all, he's already shown he cares deeply for the plight of others and would recognize his failing in dealing with these other individuals. Taking out your frustration on a family member of someone who did something stupid is not a good thing. It does not show character, it does not remedy the situation.

I sincerely hope that you never have to deal with the pain of losing a loved one to anothers stupidity, but if you do I guarantee your feelings on this matter will change.

I sincerely hope you do not blame someone for the failings of their family. That is terrifyingly unjust.

 

[moretimethansense]

I've cut most away for the sake of the forum.

I'm going to skip most of you post simply because wither you are willfully ignoriong my points or I am failing to express them well, but mostly because I'm getting sick of this arguement HOWEVER!

You said that my acting like a jerk made me a bad person without any regard to my personality or actions beyond that, then you turn around and say that my hypothetical saint gets a free pass because of his actions?
Sorry but you can't have it both ways, either being blunt and direct without regard to anothers feeling makes you a bad person regardless of everything you've done, or it does not.

And my hypothetical saint?
He simply hates idiots that drive while drunk and will happily say as such to anyone no matter how breved they are.

I sincerely hope that you never have to deal with the pain of losing a loved one to anothers stupidity, but if you do I guarantee your feelings on this matter will change.

I sincerely hope you do not blame someone for the failings of their family. That is terrifyingly unjust.

At what point did I say that I did?

I blame the drunken idiots for what they did.

I blame their reletives for asking for money.

I blame the person that did the stupid thing, I also find it incredibly unjust that others should have to pay for it, both literally and figuratively.

 

[dkyros]

I got a lot of dirty looks and i was told i was being selfish. Does this mean im a jerk or would you have done the same?

It is not your responsibility for what happen or their well being. Nor is was it your responsibility to "baby-sit" three dumb and drunken teenage girls. You were a little to "direct" in answering truthfully, but THE TRUTH HURTS in this situation. The bad ones in this situation are the ones who did nothing to stop the girls from drinking and driving in the first place (especially in the snow). You should of asked their friends, where were they, and if they were with them why in God's name they did nothing to stop their friends from getting hurt and killed.

Honestly I would of told the friends of those girls to "Where the hell you, why didn't you stop them when you had the chance"? followed by a "get lost, it is none of my concern".

So jerks and assholes aren't bad people? So what, pray tell, would be a bad person if not a jerk or an asshole?

The People (the girls so called friends) who stood by doing nothing as their friends got drunk and killed, and the OP is the Bad one?

Being a jerk is not a crime or a sin, sitting by as you let some one throw their life away is.

To your "where the hell were you?" you don't think that the girl going around trying to raise money for her critically ill friends wouldn't be asking herself that all the time? If she was there, this would be a very tactless question and if she wasn't it would be even worse.

There are levels of being a jerk, telling someone that their recently deceased friend is an idiot and following it up with telling them they should have been there is way up there. You might as well tell her you wish she'd been with them so she'd stop bothering you.
This is kind of a response to most of this thread, yes drink driving on ice isn't a good idea, but the lack of compassion shown by the majority of people in this thread is staggering.

What we see is someone going against everything that has ever been taught to them and the community throughout life. This person then gets into an accident as foretold by the countless of people who say don't drink and drive. So there is a lack of compassion for the lack of common sense because when this happens it puts their life and everyone elses life in danger.

This is a story of a drunk driver running head on into a family of 5 in 2007.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/12/31/national/main3658376.shtml

Does it suck that one is dead and two are critical? Yes.
Am I glad they only affected themselves? Yes
Does that make me a bad person? You tell me

That's not the point and you know it. Yes drink driving is stupid, reckless and wrong. This isn't about being glad the only hurt themselves, it's about showing a complete lack of compassion for their innocent friend. She was being a friend and trying to help them, she didn't demand money, she asked for it. Having a go at her about her friends, one of whom died presumably days before, is completely unacceptable.
In answer to your question, if you spare the poor girls feelings you aren't a bad person. If you tell her her friends are idiots (which if we're honest amounts to saying the deserve to die) then you are.

Touché. In a previous post I did say that I probably wouldn't of been able to of worded it better. In experience I would have probably said "No" without getting too explicit unless pushed. If pressed then I have to say that I would call her friends out on it. In other words that yes they did deserve to die. Every action has a consequence. If this was they're first time doing this they learned the hard way. But in my experience there are always people that drive after having a bit too much. As people are creatures of habit they continue driving after having too much. Most of them get either a DUI or lose their license completely for doing this. But every so often someone will end up in an accident. It is too bad that the Law can't be so Johnny-on-the-spot, but their outcome, no matter how unfortunate, was from choices made.

 

[darksakul]

I'm talking about compassion for the girl who has just lost one of her friends and could potentially lose two more. I said at the start of post you quoted that drunk driving is not ok, and of course it's terrible that it has hit close to home for you but all I'm saying is to not take it out on an innocent girl.

You might be right, by my cold dead heart would not move me to tears if you catch my drift.
Yeah sure the one "innocent" friend had nothing to do with that night and probability crying her or him self to sleep and "such stronger" comments would defiantly be hurtful to their morale as well as their sleep patterns. I just can't blame OP for his mismanagement of the situation if I knew that I would be worst than he was. And I been on that friends side of the issue before, I know how they must feel, which obviously makes me more of a monster if I can't find it in me to care enough to at least console the poor kid instead of making them feel worst. I knew OP was wrong but I do not feel he was a bad guy.

What should I be a lying silver tongued "upstanding" individual or the cold-hearted and dead on the inside but honest person? On the end of the day, ether way I do not have the "luxury" to be compassionate for complete strangers. I honestly find true compassion enduring but a flaw in the end. I can't find it in my self to find compassion for the poor kid who already lost a friend and going to lose 2 more. Too much of that happens where I am from, and too many others will use people's compassion to scam them of a few dollars.

You get enough scammers posing as innocent girls whos friend in the hospital(not saying this one is a scmamer), college students who need buss fare or homeless who would use the money you just gave them on thunderbird rather than McDonalds of that and you be surprised how "cold hearted" one can be.

Feel about me as you will, I put what I got out on this forum the good and bad.

 

[Lazier Than Thou]

I've cut most away for the sake of the forum.

I'm going to skip most of you post simply because wither you are willfully ignoriong my points or I am failing to express them well, but mostly because I'm getting sick of this arguement HOWEVER!

You said that my acting like a jerk made me a bad person without any regard to my personality or actions beyond that, then you turn around and say that my hypothetical saint gets a free pass because of his actions?

Never said he got a pass. I actually said that he would feel bad about it and apologize. While this does not negate what he did, it is the first step in forgiveness and allows the opportunity for others to judge him for his unrighteous judgment.

Sorry but you can't have it both ways, either being blunt and direct without regard to anothers feeling makes you a bad person regardless of everything you've done, or it does not.

And my hypothetical saint?
He simply hates idiots that drive while drunk and will happily say as such to anyone no matter how breved they are.

I'm not having it both ways. What he did was wrong. But this thread was not a question of if a person is good or bad based upon the sum total of their works, but based upon what they did in a particular situation. Is the OP a good person based upon their lifes works? I have no idea, as I have not seen or heard their lifes works. Is the saint still a good person? Ultimately, if he felt sorry for what he did and apologized, yes. If not, maybe, I dunno. Can a person redeem their self? I think not, but that's a much larger discussion.

I sincerely hope that you never have to deal with the pain of losing a loved one to anothers stupidity, but if you do I guarantee your feelings on this matter will change.

I sincerely hope you do not blame someone for the failings of their family. That is terrifyingly unjust.

At what point did I say that I did?

I blame the drunken idiots for what they did.

I blame their reletives for asking for money.

I blame the person that did the stupid thing, I also find it incredibly unjust that others should have to pay for it, both literally and figuratively.

So asking for charity is a bad thing? Trying to rectify the wrongs of another is a bad thing? Requiring forgiveness is a bad thing? Being poor and unable to pay your medical bills is a bad thing?

The relatives did nothing wrong. The drunken idiot did something wrong. Taking it out on the relatives IS AN UNJUST ACT.

 

[moretimethansense]

The relatives did nothing wrong. The drunken idiot did something wrong. Taking it out on the relatives IS AN UNJUST ACT.

The reletives are using guilt and emotional blackmail in order to get what they want, their reasons don't matter thay are asking for money from the very same people their relative may have killed by preforming that stupid act, if you would be willing to give money to someone that may well have killed you go right ahead, me I'll be over here with the sane people.

Also justice is an abstract concept, there is no such thing as a just or unjust act, in some countries killing a woman that has had sex outside of wedlock is justice, many would disagree.

Finally, why would I seek forgiveness for my attitude and my beliefs?
They are mine, disagree with them as you will but I will not apologize for them, to do so would be to deny who I am, and let me assure you denying who you are leads to some serieous mental health issues down the road.

 

[Lazier Than Thou]

The relatives did nothing wrong. The drunken idiot did something wrong. Taking it out on the relatives IS AN UNJUST ACT.

The reletives are using guilt and emotional blackmail in order to get what they want, their reasons don't matter thay are asking for money from the very same people their relative may have killed by preforming that stupid act, if you would be willing to give money to someone that may well have killed you go right ahead, me I'll be over here with the sane people.

That's extremely cynical. Not necessarily wrong, but very cynical.

Also justice is an abstract concept, there is no such thing as a just or unjust act, in some countries killing a woman that has had sex outside of wedlock is justice, many would disagree.

Justice is not, actually, abstract. Just about every culture has had the same concept of justice, albeit with different results. Justice is all about balance. It's about things being equal. Is being stoned to death in the street equivalent to sex outside of wedlock? In theory, but that hardly seems to matter to the discussion at hand.

Justice can actually be explained physically through Newtons Third Law of Motion. For every action, there is an opposite and equal reaction. Again, is sex outside of wedlock equal to death? Not really, but people don't tend to think these things through very often.

Finally, why would I seek forgiveness for my attitude and my beliefs?
They are mine, disagree with them as you will but I will not apologize for them, to do so would be to deny who I am, and let me assure you denying who you are leads to some serieous mental health issues down the road.

Forgiveness is not about being someone you are not, it's about acknowledging who you are and the ramifications you have had on others. Being sorry you hurt someone is not a mental illness. Wanting to change what you did is not a mental illness. You do not seek forgiveness for beliefs, you seek forgiveness for actions. Actions that harm others. This is not mental illness.

You can say that telling a grieving family off for what their hurt/dead family member did is the right course of action. I disagree entirely, but that's fine. That's your decision. I'm not going to ask you to do anything you don't think is right.

 

[moretimethansense]

snip

no problem now that I think about it the drunks probably don't deserve very much sympathy( i actually have nothing but contempt for DUI drivers) it just as i have said my cousin just died(drop dead of heart failure) and the prospect of anyone scorning someone over a dead loved one is not a pleasant one.

Perhaps not, but I highly doubt your cousin brought his/her? heart failure upon themselves, unless I suppose they took an ungodly dose of amphetamines.

I offer my condolences, for what little worth the condolences of an internet stranger have.

na he did nothing it was scary actually a genetic disorder he just dropped dead according to the doctors he was beyond help before he even hi the ground. what brings it to the EXTRA GREAT YOU JUST WON A FREE APPLE IPOD level of fun is that someone else in our family might have it and if they do they need an auto defib unit installed in their heart.

That sucks, it really does.
I hope no one else has it, or at least that they catch it early.

man venting personal troubles to online strangers well at least I cant get anymore pathetic( googles pictures of tentacle porn )

It could be worse, you could be me!
Stuck in an arguement you're not relly interested in, against someone roughly as stubbern as yourself all the while wondering why this happens every night at about one in the morning.(not you BTW)
I could be doing something fun!
(googles pictures of Furry, loli, bondage, tentacle vore porn... what?)

and I've been put on probation not even for the most insulting thing I've said today

I read that, I agree that it's kinda bullshit, but at least it's only a slap on the wrist.

 

[Adam Galli]

Some people need to learn self control. I share you're views completely. If there dumb enough to drink and drive they need to pay for their actions themselves. Not you.

 

[moretimethansense]

Responses in bold

The relatives did nothing wrong. The drunken idiot did something wrong. Taking it out on the relatives IS AN UNJUST ACT.

The reletives are using guilt and emotional blackmail in order to get what they want, their reasons don't matter thay are asking for money from the very same people their relative may have killed by preforming that stupid act, if you would be willing to give money to someone that may well have killed you go right ahead, me I'll be over here with the sane people.

That's extremely cynical. Not necessarily wrong, but very cynical.
For once I'd have to agree, my world view is a cynical one but it is a view I firmly believe in.

Also justice is an abstract concept, there is no such thing as a just or unjust act, in some countries killing a woman that has had sex outside of wedlock is justice, many would disagree.

Justice is not, actually, abstract. Just about every culture has had the same concept of justice, albeit with different results. Justice is all about balance. It's about things being equal. Is being stoned to death in the street equivalent to sex outside of wedlock? In theory, but that hardly seems to matter to the discussion at hand.
The concept of justice is common, the values however are not.
my point is that objectivly justice does not exsist (though objectivly neither does love and I believe in tyhat just fine) I just take issue with an objective set of values being forced on people.

Justice can actually be explained physically through Newtons Third Law of Motion. For every action, there is an opposite and equal reaction. Again, is sex outside of wedlock equal to death? Not really, but people don't tend to think these things through very often.
Hence why I say it doesn't exsist, if there was such a thing as an undenyably "just" or "unjust" act humanity as a whole would share it.

Finally, why would I seek forgiveness for my attitude and my beliefs?
They are mine, disagree with them as you will but I will not apologize for them, to do so would be to deny who I am, and let me assure you denying who you are leads to some serieous mental health issues down the road.

Forgiveness is not about being someone you are not, it's about acknowledging who you are and the ramifications you have had on others.
My point is that I'm not sorry, and I feel that I have nothing to be sorry for
Being sorry you hurt someone is not a mental illness. Wanting to change what you did is not a mental illness. You do not seek forgiveness for beliefs,
I never said it was, I said that supressing your beliefs can lead to mental problems, as can supressing your sexuality.
Doing something that you know in your heart is wrong can lead to emotional instability, especially if that action is forced upon you.
you seek forgiveness for actions. Actions that harm others. This is not mental illness.
You seek forgivness if you feel that you need to atone, I don't.

You can say that telling a grieving family off for what their hurt/dead family member did is the right course of action. I disagree entirely, but that's fine. That's your decision. I'm not going to ask you to do anything you don't think is right.

1. There is no "right" course here.
2. As I said I'm not attacking the family for the idiot's actions, I'm attacking them for their own.

 

[Lazier Than Thou]

The reletives are using guilt and emotional blackmail in order to get what they want, their reasons don't matter thay are asking for money from the very same people their relative may have killed by preforming that stupid act, if you would be willing to give money to someone that may well have killed you go right ahead, me I'll be over here with the sane people.

That's extremely cynical. Not necessarily wrong, but very cynical.
For once I'd have to agree, my world view is a cynical one but it is a view I firmly believe in.

Also justice is an abstract concept, there is no such thing as a just or unjust act, in some countries killing a woman that has had sex outside of wedlock is justice, many would disagree.

Justice is not, actually, abstract. Just about every culture has had the same concept of justice, albeit with different results. Justice is all about balance. It's about things being equal. Is being stoned to death in the street equivalent to sex outside of wedlock? In theory, but that hardly seems to matter to the discussion at hand.
The concept of justice is common, the values however are not.
my point is that objectivly justice does not exsist (though objectivly neither does love and I believe in tyhat just fine) I just take issue with an objective set of values being forced on people.

Justice can actually be explained physically through Newtons Third Law of Motion. For every action, there is an opposite and equal reaction. Again, is sex outside of wedlock equal to death? Not really, but people don't tend to think these things through very often.
Hence why I say it doesn't exsist, if there was such a thing as an undenyably "just" or "unjust" act humanity as a whole would share it.

Okay, that is flat out not true. There is no "maybe, if, or but" about it. People will disagree with something because it's popular, people will disagree with something factually and provably true( http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/ ), and people will disagree with something just to be a jerk. Simply because not everyone has the same beliefs DOES NOT MEAN IT'S NOT TRUE. I mean, if that's the case than there's no such thing as truth whatsoever. Humanity can't even agree that rape, slavery, and murder are evil! Heck, I'm sure that if you tried hard enough you can find people that disagree about a simple thing like 2+2=4 and really believe it!

Absolute truth does not require everyone to believe in it.

Finally, why would I seek forgiveness for my attitude and my beliefs?
They are mine, disagree with them as you will but I will not apologize for them, to do so would be to deny who I am, and let me assure you denying who you are leads to some serieous mental health issues down the road.

Forgiveness is not about being someone you are not, it's about acknowledging who you are and the ramifications you have had on others.
My point is that I'm not sorry, and I feel that I have nothing to be sorry for

Then don't apologize. You and I both agree that people shouldn't be forced to do something they don't want to do.

Being sorry you hurt someone is not a mental illness. Wanting to change what you did is not a mental illness. You do not seek forgiveness for beliefs,
I never said it was, I said that supressing your beliefs can lead to mental problems, as can supressing your sexuality.
Doing something that you know in your heart is wrong can lead to emotional instability, especially if that action is forced upon you.

Oh, now you're just picking fights. I never suggested being forced to apologize or anything regarding it.

And that sexuality thing? We've gone to a lot of strange places with this conversation, but I flat out refuse to go there.

you seek forgiveness for actions. Actions that harm others. This is not mental illness.
You seek forgivness if you feel that you need to atone, I don't.

You can say that telling a grieving family off for what their hurt/dead family member did is the right course of action. I disagree entirely, but that's fine. That's your decision. I'm not going to ask you to do anything you don't think is right.

1. There is no "right" course here.
2. As I said I'm not attacking the family for the idiot's actions, I'm attacking them for their own.

1. There is a "right" course here. That which causes pain for no benefit is a "wrong" course of action.
2. I disagree that the family has done anything wrong in asking for help. Thus, you attacking them is wrong.

In another response you said, in essence, you wanted out of the conversation. If you wanna have the last word and leave it at "agree to disagree" I'm fine with that.

 

[Daedalus1942]

So this Tuesday 3 girls went drunk driving at 11 AM and crashed. 1 died 2 are in a coma. One of there friends came around asking for a donation to help pay there medical bills. I declined and said if theyre dumb enough to go drunk driving at 11 in the morning on a snowday when the roads are bad then they can face the consequence and pay for it themselves. I got a lot of dirty looks and i was told i was being selfish. Does this mean im a jerk or would you have done the same?

I would have been a bit more diplomatic... but you are right.
They chose to do something that dangerous, those are the consequence. Such is life.
Big wheel keeps on turning. Proud Mary keep on burning.
-Tabs<3-

 

[standokan]

Well at least they didn't kill anyone else.