Poll: Bioware needs to grow up

[NinjaDeathSlap]

Now we have KOTOR, Mass Effect and Dragon Age: Origins. Morality is black and white (most achingly in KOTOR, where the "evil" options are the most absurd Snidely Whiplash nonsense imaginable), the heroes are all preposterous Mary Sues, and the storylines are all hackneyed "Boy's Own Adventure" rubbish. An evil Sith is threatening the universe! You must gather a band of plucky companions to stop him. An evil monster is threatening the kingdom! You must gather a band of plucky companions to stop him. Evil robots are threatening the galaxy! You must gather a band of plucky companions to stop them.

Now, there's nothing wrong with a little tepid story telling if the game and the presentation are strong, and Bioware usually delivers in this area. They write endearing characters, their dialogue sparkles with wit and personality, and they've clearly got a good handle on using music, cinematics and pacing to build atmosphere. All good. But these story lines and characters have the depth of a communion wafer. They can do better than this. They should do better than this.

Well, I mean, ok. As far as the main, bare-bones plots go Bioware isn't exactly breaking the mould. But take this as an example... Strip the original Star Wars trilogy down to its basic plot and you'll find a story that's as old as the hills and about as basic as you can get. A Princess and her loyal band of Knights fighting the evil Dark Lord in the name of all that is good and pure. Star Wars was basically an ancient fairy tale, only in space. The point is, this didn't stop it from being a good story. Whereas the Prequels were made infinitely worse, partially because they tried too hard to make a more complex running plot, and just ended up with something convoluted and nonsensical.

In my opinion you can make the basic plot of your story whatever the hell you like. It can be as shallow or deep as you want, as original or cliched as you want, and that has no bearing on whether or not it will be good or bad. Where 'good' and 'bad' comes in is in the narrative and the characterisation, and as you said yourself, this is where Bioware really shines. They do have bucketfuls of depth and complexity, it's just that there poured in to the cast and individual events, rather than the overarching plot. For example, Mass Effect 2's main plot about the collectors is far from their best work, but in other areas, such as Legion's loyalty mission, you'll find all the depth and complexity you could ask for.

 

[Vidiot]

I feel that I have to throw my hat in with what bz316 said above. There is a lot of subtlety between the lines if you look for it.

Bioware is great for making sure every character gets a development arc, making sure the overall story doesn't get in the way of the smaller stories, and piecing it all together so that you can still answer the question "yeah, but what's the game about?" in less than 3 pages of text.

My favorite example of this is still Jade Empire. The "save the world" plot was masterfully written and realized from beginning to end.
(oh, crap. I don't know how to do spoiler tags. Apologies to anyone who hasn't played the game if this doesn't work)

The classic "your destiny is to save the world" plot is redeemed by proving to be an artificial construction of Master Li himself. He intentionally filled your head with these ideals and trained you to have a monster of a hero complex. In the end you save the kingdom in spite of this, not because you're the destined hero he said you were.

At the same time, every character has an individual development arc that is often directly influenced by you as the leader.

You can force Dawn Star, for example, to grow a spine and stop whining about her insecurities, but that doesn't mean you have to go "evil" for the entire story.

Speaking of evil, that was also the best handling of evil in games I've seen. I'm tired of the evil option answering the "why" question with "because I'm a dick and I hate kittens"
Jade Empire introduced the "closed fist" option which allowed you to have a valid philosophy behind why you weren't a doormat for every NPC who lost their shoe in the forest or has a mean landlord.

Last soapbox rant about Bioware games and good/evil RPGs in general. Please stop balancing the game assuming players will be 100% good or evil.

(ME2)When I can't get the "good" ending because I don't see the point in blowing up an alien weapons lab as opposed to turning it over to the Council or Alliance instead of Cerberus that shouldn't make me evil! that's just practical thinking. "It's tainted" isn't an excuse to burn a book, and isn't an excuse to potentially deny your species valuable insight into your attackers.

When you take away options for your player because they don't agree with your view of good or evil, the player is forced to make that choice once at character creation, and will be pure good or pure evil for the rest of the game so they can get the best bonuses. They no longer have a choice of whether they agree that the genophage is for the greater good, now they have to choose between gameplay and role playing.

Sorry for the wall of text, I just needed to get that out of my system.

TL;DR version:
1.Jade Empire did a great job of keeping the overall story nuanced while not neglecting individual character arcs.

2.If you're going to make being evil an option, at least give me a story-relevant reason to do so.

3.Don't punish your players for actually thinking about the decisions you place in front of them rather than looking for the one with the most "good points" so they won't get a bad ending.

 

[Artemis923]

I'd rather play an over the top fantasy or sci-fi tale with my "plucky companions" than tromp through the same war torn city over and over again shooting terrorists.

Or Russians.

Or Nazis.

Or Russian terrorists secretly allied with Nazis.

 

[Versuvius]

I ...kinda. Sort of agree. But i think it applies to all RPG's in general. The old classics like Fallout, Planescape etc had deep and engaging plots while giving you options to shoot your way through the game or do significantly harder but often more rewarding pacifist runs. Even planescape allowed these to a degree. NWN was also a hit, even if it had a couple of problems, NWN2 less so but still great with many ways of playing through it depending on class. Modern RPGs just drop the ball i feel, Mass Effect moreso by being gutted to fit in MOAR FPS elements.

 

[Proverbial Jon]

All I have learned from this thread is the fact that there are 47 FBI agents on the Escapist, all posing as juveniles...

I have so far only played Mass Effect 1 and 2 out of Bioware's catalogue. Tried Dragon Age and didn't like it, but it was nothing to do with the story.

As far as Mass Effect goes, the overal package is intriguing and exciting while you're playing. But there are a few "Hey... wait a minute!" moments if you stop and look too hard at the plot.

As for the final boss of ME2... well if we're accepting the race of giant sentient machines that want to wipe out all life in the universe for NO REASON other than to fulfill the basic requirement for antagonists to be outright EVIL... then we can accept that the Reapers truly would create something that ridiculous.

 

[Deathninja19]

The problem I'm having with Bioware is their cut and paste attiude to characters and plotlines. It's ok to have archtypes in their games but it's getting stupid.

Some Examples of characters/events COPIED between games:

The Special lead: Child of Bhaal/Jedi Knight/Spectres/Grey Wardens (although I have the least problems with these)
The stoic warrior: Canderous Ordo/Sten/Wrex
The naive yet plucky girl: Mission Vao/Tali/(ugh)Merilll

I could go on but I'm boring myself

 

[Versuvius]

The problem I'm having with Bioware is their cut and paste attiude to characters and plotlines. It's ok to have archtypes in their games but it's getting stupid.

Some Examples of characters/events COPIED between games:

The Special lead: Child of Bhaal/Jedi Knight/Spectres/Grey Wardens (although I have the least problems with these)
The stoic warrior: Canderous Ordo/Sten/Wrex
The naive yet plucky girl: Mission Vao/Tali/(ugh)Merilll

I could go on but I'm boring myself

The children of Bhaal thing is a Big Thing to do with the cosmology of DnD. There was also already lots of background on them. I loved Wrex, shush you heathen. Merill was just a tired, tired old stereotype, so yes.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

So good stories are the ones featuring heroes dealing with niggling little concerns of a small community? Those well written characters are only acceptable if you are fighting small time enemies and not taking part in worldwide conflict?

Ok bro, whatever.

Can you quote where I said any of that?

 

[Deathninja19]

The problem I'm having with Bioware is their cut and paste attiude to characters and plotlines. It's ok to have archtypes in their games but it's getting stupid.

Some Examples of characters/events COPIED between games:

The Special lead: Child of Bhaal/Jedi Knight/Spectres/Grey Wardens (although I have the least problems with these)
The stoic warrior: Canderous Ordo/Sten/Wrex
The naive yet plucky girl: Mission Vao/Tali/(ugh)Merilll

I could go on but I'm boring myself

The children of Bhaal thing is a Big Thing to do with the cosmology of DnD. There was also already lots of background on them. I loved Wrex, shush you heathen. Merill was just a tired, tired old stereotype, so yes.

Don't get me wrong the Child of Bhaal thing I'm fine with but it's just another example of making the main character special, they can't just be an average fighter/thief or whatever. I love Wrex too but he's still a stereotype and I think Merill was the final nail in the coffin for my unquestionable love of Bioware with me.

 

[Susurrus]

SNIP

Yay Planescape and Black Isle!

I think the best example of moral choice in a recent game is Alpha Protocol. Sure, in places, the gameplay is terrible, and it's horribly buggy. But in terms of choice - meaningful choices, and actual dilemmas, it was great.

"Moral choice" basically has two meanings, I think and games tend to use one, whilst people clamour for the other.
The first is a standard good/evil choice (save orphanage, electrocute kittens). This is a choice of alignment, really.

The second is rather more complex, and involves choosing the lesser of two evils. People can die, in Alpha Protocol, central characters, depending on what choices you make. THOSE are moral choices - and you got perks and bonuses for it, veering your personality, as well as your background, in particular directions. This was morality done well. It's just a shame the package was a little rough.

 

[Wolfenbarg]

Here we go...

When you break down the stories to their smallest components, yeah, they seem quite juvenile and cliche. However, a lot of great stories throughout history have had rather simple stories but really kicked people in the ass with their execution. Star Wars is the Joseph Campbell story down to the letter, but the film was rather grim. Luke Skywalker sees his surrogate parents' scorched corpses, the Empire blows up an entire planet, Han Solo murders a guy... people weren't used to seeing Sergio Leone style grit in a hokey sci-fi adventure serial. Mass Effect and Dragon Age are the exact same way. I won't argue on Kotor though. While Kotor 2 is incredibly mature and has themes that ask the player as many questions as Planescape did, Kotor was just kind of ridiculous. But, moving on.

Mass Effect: At it's core you do have a story to stop evil robots. However, look at every backstory element and narrative event that drives you to that point. You have stories that deal with the age of globalism, the ethics of an exponentially increasing rate of technological growth, parallels with important events in human history and so on. There is a simple story with an incredibly detailed world surrounding it. It's basically like a more modern cross between Babylon 5 and Star Trek.

Dragon Age: You couldn't be more wrong about this story. Unlike Knights of the Old Republic, while there is a grand, malevolent force that you have to stop, the story is driving much deeper themes than "Evil is bad!" It's built all around service and sacrifice and finding the best way to do what's right. Yes, your overall goal is to save the kingdom, but the game spends a lot of time trying to find out why. There is actual room for personal character development, which isn't common in games like these. Also, there are very few moments in the game where you are given a plain, black and white motive for what's going on. Also...

Spoiler

It drives the theme to the point where not only can your character die in the final battle, but there isn't really a typical, happy ending even available. You either refuse Morrigan's ritual and fight the Archdemon knowing you won't walk away from it alive, or you accept her ritual and live with the knowledge that Flemeth's loose cannon daughter is going to spring a dark god from her loins.

Remember, stories are often a vehicle to drive themes. This has been a big thing in cinema for a long time due to their short runtimes. Game developers took a lot of cues from cinema. Just because the story is simple does not mean that the game is simple. Planescape could have had a much more basic "Kill the bad thing!" story and still driven the same themes it did. It wouldn't have been as good, but it certainly wouldn't have been juvenile. That very idea is ridiculous.

 

[Susurrus]

SNIP

You missed that some of their characters are LITERALLY cut and paste.

Annah, from Planescape Torment - a red-head thief with demonic heritage.

Neeshka, from NWN2 - a red-head thief with demonic heritage

Sharwyn, from NWN1 - a red-head bard (ok, not a thief, but close enough). No demonic heritage though.

Nalia, from BG2 - a red-head rogue (ok, rogue/mage)

Imoen - a red (and occasionally pink) haired rogue

Ok yes, SOME difference, but its all variations on a very similar theme...

 

[AlternatePFG]

SNIP

You missed that some of their characters are LITERALLY cut and paste.

Annah, from Planescape Torment - a red-head thief with demonic heritage.

Neeshka, from NWN2 - a red-head thief with demonic heritage

Sharwyn, from NWN1 - a red-head bard (ok, not a thief, but close enough). No demonic heritage though.

Nalia, from BG2 - a red-head rogue (ok, rogue/mage)

Imoen - a red (and occasionally pink) haired rogue

Ok yes, SOME difference, but its all variations on a very similar theme...

2 of those games aren't BioWare games, I'll let you guess which.

And while yeah, I agree completely they recycle characters, most of those characters that you have just specified, are significantly different from each other personality wise. Red-headed thief girl is really all they have in common. The ones I complain about are the basic Carth or Bastila characters that have shown up in every one of their games since KOTOR.

 

[Susurrus]

SNIP

Yes, I know. But the point still stands. Very similar characters appear across the board (and its Annah and Neeshka anyway, which means that the two types are separated - demonic red-head thief for one, red-head thief for the other...)

 

[AMMO Kid]

Maybe it's just because I had low expectations for DA2, but I played it through with a high amount of enjoyment. In fact, I don't think I've ever enjoyed a "bad" game that much. I loved every second of it.

 

[Susurrus]

SNIP

I can't take any of Star Wars seriously, because the dialogue is a complete mess. What isn't hackneyed or inappropriate is entirely cliched. I can't take any of the characters at face value. The entire thing collapses under the weight of bad writing. Whenever its on, and I want to watch a bit, I mute it, because having no sound effects is better than having to listen to the drivel of their conversation.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Here we go...

When you break down the stories to their smallest components, yeah, they seem quite juvenile and cliche. However, a lot of great stories throughout history have had rather simple stories but really kicked people in the ass with their execution. Star Wars is the Joseph Campbell story down to the letter, but the film was rather grim. Luke Skywalker sees his surrogate parents' scorched corpses, the Empire blows up an entire planet, Han Solo murders a guy... people weren't used to seeing Sergio Leone style grit in a hokey sci-fi adventure serial. Mass Effect and Dragon Age are the exact same way. I won't argue on Kotor though. While Kotor 2 is incredibly mature and has themes that ask the player as many questions as Planescape did, Kotor was just kind of ridiculous. But, moving on.

Mass Effect: At it's core you do have a story to stop evil robots. However, look at every backstory element and narrative event that drives you to that point. You have stories that deal with the age of globalism, the ethics of an exponentially increasing rate of technological growth, parallels with important events in human history and so on. There is a simple story with an incredibly detailed world surrounding it. It's basically like a more modern cross between Babylon 5 and Star Trek.

Dragon Age: You couldn't be more wrong about this story. Unlike Knights of the Old Republic, while there is a grand, malevolent force that you have to stop, the story is driving much deeper themes than "Evil is bad!" It's built all around service and sacrifice and finding the best way to do what's right. Yes, your overall goal is to save the kingdom, but the game spends a lot of time trying to find out why. There is actual room for personal character development, which isn't common in games like these. Also, there are very few moments in the game where you are given a plain, black and white motive for what's going on. Also...

Spoiler

It drives the theme to the point where not only can your character die in the final battle, but there isn't really a typical, happy ending even available. You either refuse Morrigan's ritual and fight the Archdemon knowing you won't walk away from it alive, or you accept her ritual and live with the knowledge that Flemeth's loose cannon daughter is going to spring a dark god from her loins.

Remember, stories are often a vehicle to drive themes. This has been a big thing in cinema for a long time due to their short runtimes. Game developers took a lot of cues from cinema. Just because the story is simple does not mean that the game is simple. Planescape could have had a much more basic "Kill the bad thing!" story and still driven the same themes it did. It wouldn't have been as good, but it certainly wouldn't have been juvenile. That very idea is ridiculous.

Perhaps it's because I just finished re-reading Joe Abercrombie's First Law trilogy, or perhaps it's because I just finished re-watching The Wire, but I find my appetite for exhausted fantasy and sci-fi tropes and slap-dash attempts at representing political/ethical strife more annoying than maybe I should. Maybe my standards are too high, and maybe I'm being unreasonable in expecting more from Bioware in this area. There have certainly been some impassioned defenses of the subtlety of their storytelling. I'm not blind to those moments in which they reach beyond the more hackneyed elements in their plotting, but I've always felt they've been too few and too far between to supply the primary narrative thrust with any real thematic depth or resonance. But I may just be old and fussy.

 

[Manji187]

Torment wasn't developed by Bioware. It was developed by Black Isle and written by Chris Avellone.

And actually, the ammount of original material in it is amazing for a licensed game. If I remember correctly, the basic idea was making a fantasy RPG that didn't use any of the usual cliches.

Everybody should try that every once in a while...to avoid stagnation. Alas, money has proven to be the more "persuasive" factor.