Poll: Bioware needs to grow up
- Thread starter BloatedGuppy
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I played through the entire thing. The characters are inconsistent, the dialogue is bland, the acting also ranges from bland to might-work-if-the-entire-game-was-goofy-but-it-isn't-so-they-don't, and the only thing I can remember from the story is that missiles were stolen, and the government was conspiring with an evil PMC; and the only reason I can remember that is because its the same repeated plot elements used in all those types of stories.Satsuki666 said:
And that's just the writing.
Bethesda make all the Elder Scrolls games, not Obsidian/Black Isle.cora mcstrap said:
This thread needs MOAR immaturity...
HOW COME I COULDN'T SEE MY CHARACTER AND HER LOVE INTEREST IN THEIR UNDERWEAR IN DRAGON AGE TWO MAN THAT IS SO MUCH BS I AM SO ANGRY AT THAT.
/endimmaturity
I think their writing is alright, personally. Really, it's the codexes and extra background information that really gets me into the stories. I find it fascinating to learn more about the world that I'm playing in, beyond what I'm told in quests and can figure out just by looking around or fighting bad guys.
HOW COME I COULDN'T SEE MY CHARACTER AND HER LOVE INTEREST IN THEIR UNDERWEAR IN DRAGON AGE TWO MAN THAT IS SO MUCH BS I AM SO ANGRY AT THAT.
/endimmaturity
I think their writing is alright, personally. Really, it's the codexes and extra background information that really gets me into the stories. I find it fascinating to learn more about the world that I'm playing in, beyond what I'm told in quests and can figure out just by looking around or fighting bad guys.
I actually just beat Planescape Torment, and the thing that I have to say is this: It was actually by Black Isle.
Who went on to become...
OBSIDIAN!
NATCH!
Who went on to become...
OBSIDIAN!
NATCH!
Missiles are used and not stolen, apologies for the minor slip-up. Other then that, Halbech are still a big, bad PMC and missiles of a questionable origin are involved.Satsuki666 said:
So yes, 100% wrong, if by "wrong" you mean "off by a minor detail". Unless you're suggesting my opinion is wrong, in which case I'll commend you on that utterly wonderful defence of your point of view that you tried to act smarmy with when you quoted me.
To some extent. Obsidian is a portion of Black Isle, which was a portion of Interplay. The difference between Interplay and Obsidian is Interplay was actually able to release functional games.Namewithheld said:
I kind of wish EA would just buy Obsidian and fold them into Bioware, but then Obsidian would get that icky EA taint all over them.
roughly this.Liberaliter said:
yeah bioware probably CAN do a bit better, but i've enjoyed every single one of their games up until now, and i'm not going to act like the elitist fan who demands more about it.
besides obsidian, who is my favorite btw, i have yet to see a developer who even comes close to telling stories in the same fashion/better than bioware, so if they come along, awesome, if not, no complaining here.
Save the world plots are rather boring now. I found myself just slogging through to the Landsmeet in DA:O because my efforts would finally pay off. I also found that my choices were being affected by which party members I was romancing at the time. I chose depending on which companion romance achievement I was going for and I know thats wrong but its what happenned.
I think that the moral choices need to be on a smaller scale, just like the story. Keep it tight with a central cast of characters that involve the protagonist, the antagonist the companions that have a part to play and other interesting guys and gals.
Sort of close to topic, I was playing L.A. Noire today and the moral choice in that game which you never really get to carry out but is discussed is who to lock up.
Right, in one case there are two suspects for a murder, one man is the husband of the victim and all evidence points to him but is just an average sort of guy that almost certainly wont murder anyone else. He looks guilty but is not a threat to anyone else. If you convict him you let a child molester walk free.
The other guy is a child molester that happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and gets identified as a suspect. If you convict him you are letting a probable killer walk free but stopping this man from convicting other crimes.
Who do you lock up? Which one really needs to feel justice? Let the player decide if the actual killer or the molester goes to jail but also which one goes free. Also make the players feel the consequences of their choices a bit more starkly. In the previous example if you convict the first man then let us see how awful the child molester can be. He reoffends and the player wonders if they made the right choice earlier. If you convict the second man other characters hear rumours that you let a killer go free to get someone else and confront you with it.
For my choices I want the final decision to be set out in front of me, the options are clear but the consequences aren't, they come later and each choice will have negative consequences. The Fable 3 throne room choices are sort of what I'm looking for with each side getting to present its case but without the clearly good/bad options and the angelic good A or the firey hellish X. Even if I refuse to choose show consequences. In DA2 I met a character that wanted my help in tracking down an assasin who has already killed some people. I wanted to see the games much vaunted consequences in action if I ignored what may be a dangerous killer on the loose because its not my problem. I declined then waited for some sort of murder, something to show that by refusing the call to arms bad thing will happen. Nothing did and I think all developers could learn that 'By not choosing, you are making a choice.'
Phew, long rant.
I think that the moral choices need to be on a smaller scale, just like the story. Keep it tight with a central cast of characters that involve the protagonist, the antagonist the companions that have a part to play and other interesting guys and gals.
Sort of close to topic, I was playing L.A. Noire today and the moral choice in that game which you never really get to carry out but is discussed is who to lock up.
Right, in one case there are two suspects for a murder, one man is the husband of the victim and all evidence points to him but is just an average sort of guy that almost certainly wont murder anyone else. He looks guilty but is not a threat to anyone else. If you convict him you let a child molester walk free.
The other guy is a child molester that happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and gets identified as a suspect. If you convict him you are letting a probable killer walk free but stopping this man from convicting other crimes.
Who do you lock up? Which one really needs to feel justice? Let the player decide if the actual killer or the molester goes to jail but also which one goes free. Also make the players feel the consequences of their choices a bit more starkly. In the previous example if you convict the first man then let us see how awful the child molester can be. He reoffends and the player wonders if they made the right choice earlier. If you convict the second man other characters hear rumours that you let a killer go free to get someone else and confront you with it.
For my choices I want the final decision to be set out in front of me, the options are clear but the consequences aren't, they come later and each choice will have negative consequences. The Fable 3 throne room choices are sort of what I'm looking for with each side getting to present its case but without the clearly good/bad options and the angelic good A or the firey hellish X. Even if I refuse to choose show consequences. In DA2 I met a character that wanted my help in tracking down an assasin who has already killed some people. I wanted to see the games much vaunted consequences in action if I ignored what may be a dangerous killer on the loose because its not my problem. I declined then waited for some sort of murder, something to show that by refusing the call to arms bad thing will happen. Nothing did and I think all developers could learn that 'By not choosing, you are making a choice.'
Phew, long rant.
Bioware's problem is that they're aces at writing characters/dialog (most of the time) and pretty much pants at writing plot. All of their villains basically fall under "huge ominous evil thing that is evil," and when your Big Bad is on par with Ganondorf in terms of characterization, something is very wrong.
The Dragon Age games (both of them) were good because Bioware put a lot of emphasis on the party, and making each character interesting and entertaining. By the same token, ME2 suffered from removing inter-party dialog and dramatically reducing the amount of time spent with each character, essentially reducing them to quest-givers who happened to hang around on Shepard's great big ship-o-loading screens.
The Dragon Age games (both of them) were good because Bioware put a lot of emphasis on the party, and making each character interesting and entertaining. By the same token, ME2 suffered from removing inter-party dialog and dramatically reducing the amount of time spent with each character, essentially reducing them to quest-givers who happened to hang around on Shepard's great big ship-o-loading screens.
I'm not sure in what way it's "elitist" to wish a favorite developer would step up their game. You probably want to use "entitled" or "demanding" there. But, yeah. I've been buying their RPG's for almost 20 years now. I am the very definition of a loyal customer. So it's bad exactly how for me to express something I'd like to see them improve on?gmaverick019 said:
HEATHEN!AlternatePFG said:
/just kidding, but i do love to use carth's cheesy lines when at all possible.
and it's really hard to NOT recycle characters, there are only so many combinations that work out nicely in a story without you being annoyed as fuck (who the hell wants an emo weak ass gardening gas station clerk in their party? i sure as hell don't.)
your right, demanding was probably a better word choice (sorry, been up alllll night workin on homework and studying for a quiz, so this is officially my 32nd hour i have been up straight.)BloatedGuppy said:
and that's the problem, i'm sure i'll end up that way soon enough, but it's really hard for the same people on the same team in the same genre to really break free of a certain "style" that they do, i mean if you think bioware is stagnating at all look at tons and tons of other game series out there, the characters are as cookie cutter at it gets and the only thing they change between games is their color of underwear, that's it.
your either gonna hear "it ain't broken, so why fix it?" or "gah! it's the same stagnating crap again wrapped up in a new box!"
although i will admit DA2 while i enjoyed it, it was open for so much more potential, it was really interesting how the antagonist(s) in the story fit together rather than one overwhelming force (reapers/sith lords/evil emperor), but alas...that went down the shitter it seems in the detail department.
Thinking the main problem with Bioware right now; is that they are trying to build their own worlds with Dragon Age and Mass Effect. While I believe Black Isle was writing a story in a world that was already pretty fleshed out. The problem with the kotor games was well It's a star wars story of course its going to be black and white morality, and a sith threatening the galaxy.
Maybe once Dragon Age, and Mass Effect get fleshed out a bit more we will see more grey areas.
Maybe once Dragon Age, and Mass Effect get fleshed out a bit more we will see more grey areas.
T.D. said:
Indeed, the main stories don't have a very diverse or original plot, but it's the many sub quest that brings flavor to the whole game (at least for me) maybe because it's a way to present you the world in which your character is in, Bioware's writting is good, or at very least interesting enough to keep me going.
PS: Kudos for your avatar, Luca Blight was one hell of a bad guy.
Hmm, personally I disagree as far as "head and shoulders" goes, but I'm sure Obsidian's take on KOTOR II would've turned out much better if Lucasarts hadn't rushed it out six months early and forced them to butcher the ending and truncate many of the sideplots.BloatedGuppy said:
BioWare's stories aren't as good as Obsidian's but are simply polished and presented with skill. Quality presentation often trumps originality, like it or not. Besides, the characters are interesting enough. Aside from ME2, I don't recall playing a BioWare game with an unsatisfying story. DAII's approach was rather refreshing but recycled dungeons and a few other things marred the game. Alas, while Obsidian can write and present a story, they can't design a working game to save their lives. Acceptable story + great presentation + polished gameplay > great story + good presentation + acceptable gameplay.
This poll is biased, well says it all. don't like bioware style of story telling? don't play bioware games simple as that as long as Bioware games sells you rant is only opinion one of the many. i liked every bioware game and never had any problem with story, DA2 was a little let down but still fun game and I'm glad i bought it.