Poll: Bioware needs to grow up

[Zarmi]

The stories they do are not really that good, but why should they change it? Their games sell, a lot and people love the games. They don't have to change the way they make their stories, and that's enough reason for them not to do so.

 

[Avatar Roku]

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KotoR 2: Not really better than KotoR in the story department (although I'll admit I liked it more). Also, setting appropriateness is off. KotoR felt like a star Wars game in the way it's sequel never did.
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I disagree. KotOR1 is about stopping an evil overlord from taking over the galaxy, oh noes! KotOR2 is an inward journey dealing with shades of gray and a plot that is not spoonfed to you. That last part is important, but also, I feel, why people didn't like the story; all the important, interesting parts of the story have to be pieced together by the player, you're only outright told the bare minimum you need to get through.

Tell us a real story.

PS - Poll added for shits and giggles. I'm sure the Escapist will eat it anyway.

And that's the problem: characters are story.

The "real story" isn't the list of events unfolding. It's the characters in them, the changes they undergo, the variety of their interactions...

I only recently played Mass Effect. It was $10, and I figured, "Let's see what the fuss is about." I didn't really enjoy KotoR from a story standpoint. I've never been into Dragon Age. This was pure experiment.

This story works well. Shepard is kind of a "blank slate," and not a terribly interesting character -- but rarely is the central character the most interesting! Even in great stories, the central character develops more slowly and has a bit less flavor. Otherwise, you end up getting sick of that "flavor" because the central character is always there.

But the other characters? They did a pretty good job of conveying a sense of personality, especially without knowing how much time any given player would spend with each character. I rarely ever used Kaidan, but even then I still got a sense of the guy.

And, for once, the threat was believable -- the Reapers want to "destroy the galaxy." Not for evil's sake. It's a harvest, to further their own mysterious ends (which are explained further in the second installment). That's a believable motivation (as opposed to the Sith, but Lucas is as much to blame for that as BioWare). But the threat isn't the story.

The events just move the timeline along. They don't make it a story. Games that focus too much on the events get into what I call "sitcom syndrome." It's "Here are some stock characters. Let's see what zaaaaany antics they get into this week!" and at the end, the characters stay the same... so we can reload to "zany" it up again next time.

In the best stories, it's the characters that drive things to greatness. The events provide a framework, and they should be interesting and have weight, but they are no substitute for good characters.

(As for the main character being a Mary Sue, that's an unfortunate byproduct of telling stories through games. You want the player to gain power as they go, and you want make sure they can succeed enough to actually see the whole story... and the result is that they're just a tad more powerful than a purely-written character would be.)

Hm...now those are good points, I hadn't really thought of it that way. I'd always thought of a "good story" vs "good storytelling" dichotomy, but it never occurred to me that the good storytelling may, in itself, be a good story. I dunno why; I always go on about KotOR2, and that game was really all about the characters: the Exile, Kreia, Atris, the Council (those, of course, just being the one's the main plot is concerned with). With the same plot and different characters, it would not have been even close to as good as it was. But it just never occurred to me, go figure.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

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Long Version:

I think the issue is broader then just Bioware and their cookie cutter plots. Plots/narrative in games are a means to an end, a medium to give action purpose. Ultimately gameplay is more important then the narrative and I would appreciate more time spent on making a game fun, then making a game soul piercingly deep.

Granted, a strong, well structured and intriguing narrative is the difference between a fun diversion and a singular experience. Unfortunately the industry isn't at the point yet where as much an investment can go into a plot as goes into graphics or gameplay coding.

By all means, have your concerns and voice them. But you also have to realise that games as an industry is only 30~ years old... of which only 15-20 years have been experimenting with actual narrative/plot as more then a means to an end and only 12~ years since games started to be considered a genuine medium and not just a childs plaything by the greater masses.

What's more, the userbase still has to mature. Gamers still rant on about aesthetics over gameplay (completely superficial, immersion is not being achieved by higher pixel counts or pretty textures, or at least not advancing at any notable rate) and some even think that games are already good at story telling (on a whole, they aren't frankly).

Personally, I think the industry has made leaps and bounds of progress in all things over the last decade and a half... we have had many games that have shone brighter then others as paragons of the industry, but we have yet to see a game that truly nails narrative without sacrificing interactivity, which is the sole reason people play games over watching a film.

As long as debates don't become deconstructive or turn into pissing matches about who's opinion is better then the others... then all we have to do is remain vocal, praise the right aspects of games and in time games will change to meet those standards.

There has been a lot of hearsay about the industry hitting a plateau in terms of graphics. Maybe the next decade will open up an avenue for narratives to grow in triple A titles.

TL/DR

You're right, Bioware is still playing it safe with plots and not taking risks or breaking from the formula (though they experiment in their sub-plots at least).

But that isn't an issue with bioware: The industries current focus is graphics and "gimmicky" game mechanics, though graphics seem to be heading off now and other aspects are being scrutinised because of it. I suspect the next decade will hold the biggest leap for narrative in games.

Gamers are also a culprit for lacklustre plot development. This in itself is worth an entire thread (or even forum) for a thorough analyses. But in brief, gamers standards are confused and consequently the developers are making poor calls based off of this confusion.

It's all well and good to cite flaws in games, but don't forget to commend strong aspects... less the developers dump it along with the crap. A little leeway might also be giving considering how young the game industry is.

PS: I chose the last option, cause I genuinely laughed when I read it...

 

[MightyRabbit]

The way I see it the broader you draw the plot the more room you have for the characters and setting to go in strange new and interesting directions. They actual story may not be revolutionary or original (though I'd hardly use the term juvenile). The plot of stuff like Star Wars or Persona 4 were pretty damn broad (at least until Persona 4's endgame) and they're remembered very fondly as works of storytelling.

By contrast, if you have a tight plot like, say, Portal, the characters and setting are constricted by the story you want to tell (despite how fantastic they still may end up being.

Basically, I think Bioware keeps the overarching plot simple so the details along the way can be more interesting.

Not to mention that if they had a more tightly constricted plot, a lot of the choice would be gone. Not just all those juicy (or stupid, depending on the game) moral choices, but also things as simple as which dungeon you go to first. I think Bioware are getting better, though their efforts with DA2 & ME2 were a rather mixed bag, storytelling-wise.

 

[Undead Dragon King]

And even then, BioWare's stories aren't totally cut-and-paste. You're completely leaving out the issues of plot twists that make BioWare's stories unique.

Honestly, I've never understood people being impressed with Biowares plot twists. Every game of theirs that I have ever played, they have so heavy handedly telegraphed what was coming that it's hard to be surprised, let alone give a crap when the reveal finally happens. What's more, I've never found their plot twists to be very original, or even all that interesting, and I blame a lot of it on the fact that their fairly black and white take on moral issues prevents them from really exploring grey areas that would be far more interesting.

And the fact that they like to ape fairly familiar sci-fi and fantasy tropes for all they're worth doesn't help much either.

Perhaps you don't understand why you are clearly in the minority of enjoyment of the plot twists. The unwashed masses of BioWare lovers, myself included, do not possess your powers of clairvoyance. I wouldn't call dropping a few hints through the story "heavy handedly telegraphing" what was going to happen. The reveals in KOTOR and Jade Empire were jaw-dropping for me, and only looking back at the story and remembering those little hints, and having the light bulb go on made the story all the more enjoyable.

And what's this about not exploring morally gray areas? In ME2, did you brainwash or destroy the Geth Heretics? Sure, BioWare assigned a "good" and "evil" option to each, but that was a result of bad programming, not bad writing. That was a question of the lesser of two evils.

And fantasy and sci-fi tropes are common in almost any fantasy and sci-fi RPG these days.

 

[Zhukov]

I always love one-sided polls, especially options that insult you if you don't agree with the OP. Apparently if we don't vehemently hate science fiction and fantasy cliches, we are mentally twelve years old.

I fixed the poll for you.

I am filing "thundering prick" away for future use.

 

[Nimcha]

I sort of agree, but I don't really have a preference. I like both the original saving the universe from a big bad and the DA2 experiment of just having one big political mess.

*shrug* Maybe I'm just a Bioware fangirl?

 

[Laxman9292]

Simply untrue. Obsidian is head and shoulders above Bioware in terms of quality of narrative. They just can't put together a working, polished game to save their lives.

Since Obsidian is the closest thing to a successor studio that Black Isle can claim to have, I can understand your line of thinking here.

However, Obsidian suffers the absolute reverse problem of BioWare. Conceptually, their overall stories are great. However, they just can't make a functioning game.

And even then, BioWare's stories aren't totally cut-and-paste. You're completely leaving out the issues of plot twists that make BioWare's stories unique. Since these are all (at least relatively) old games, I won't bother with spoiler tags.

KOTOR: You ARE that evil Sith who's threatening the galaxy! What do you do now? Betray and kill your plucky companions? Go for it!

Jade Empire: Your master, not the big, bad emperor, is the real enemy and kills you just as you find out!

Dragon Age: You or one of your plucky companions MUST DIE before that big evil monster must die. Or you can transfer that monster's powers to a creepy witch's unborn child who will use it for who-knows-what evil reason?

Mass Effect: The evil robots are being ushered in by a tragic figure who sees his actions as trying to save lives, even as it ushers in the galactic apocalypse, which would have happened already if it hadn't been for a civiliation tens of thousnds of years dead.


Granted, Mass Effect 2's story didn't have a great overarching plot, but the characters and their individual missions were enough to power through it. Plus, it fell into that "middle movie" hole where it can't have a definite beginning or end. Mass Effect 3 will have some amazing plot twists in it, mark my words.

Thank you! Honestly any story can sound preposterous when it gets boiled down enough. Really isn't The Great Gatsby really just a story about some upper class people boozing it up and being superficial and hating their life. Also, someone has a car accident.

 

[Vulg]

I liked DA2, After I finished it I said to my friend that it was in my opinion, a good step away from their formula of as you say, ancient evil plucky companions etc, that I enjoyed.

I'm a big fan of Bioware games even if the basic story is the same, but I am not opposed to them trying new things like DA2, it was just a shame about the complete lack of variety in the DA2 settings, sure it was all the same city and you can't have too much variation because of that. But it did need a little less copy/pasting.

 

[Zing]

Dragon Age 2 was a step back in story. It was boring and nonsensical sorry.

 

[Use_Imagination_here]

I always love one-sided polls, especially options that insult you if you don't agree with the OP. Apparently if we don't vehemently hate science fiction and fantasy cliches, we are mentally twelve years old.

I fixed the poll for you.

Man you hitlered him so hard.

(I don't even care if im banned as long as I get to make that stupid joke)

Ot: I rather disagree. I find bioware stories to be brilliance built around simplicity.

And for fucks sake If you have nothing to say to my opinion other than that you disagree with my opinion DON'T REPLY.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Oh, and KotOR is a million times better than Mass Effect or Dragon Age: Origins.

If by "better" you mean "better at making my eyes roll right out of my head at the corny dialogue" then I agree. I'd even go so far as to say it's a BILLION times better.

And for fucks sake If you have nothing to say to my opinion other than that you disagree with my opinion DON'T REPLY.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

Here's the thing about KOTOR: It's a Star Wars game. Star Wars is all about black and white morality, and any attempts at interesting grey areas are either given the axe by LucasArts or declared non-canon.

I agree that the story was weak and the villains were horrible, but then I pretty much hate Star Wars in general for that very reason.

The sad truth of this statement is probably why we will never see another Tie Fighter game, because they don't want us to play the villains.

 

[Fightgarr]

Bioware do a lot of world-saving from unequivocal evil, but the problem is that so is everyone else. If we could get a more interesting story than "save the city/country/world/galaxy/universe" thing that'd be rad. Unfortunately there isn't a lot of that going on. Bioware may have unequivocally evil villains, but what it tends to have (that I appreciate) is not unequivocally good protagonists. That, to me, is a start, but isn't quite there yet. In short: saving the *place* is uncreative and everyone is doing it, not just Bioware.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Bioware do a lot of world-saving from unequivocal evil, but the problem is that so is everyone else. If we could get a more interesting story than "save the city/country/world/galaxy/universe" thing that'd be rad. Unfortunately there isn't a lot of that going on. Bioware may have unequivocally evil villains, but what it tends to have (that I appreciate) is not unequivocally good protagonists. That, to me, is a start, but isn't quite there yet. In short: saving the *place* is uncreative and everyone is doing it, not just Bioware.

Not everyone is doing it though. We've had deviations on that theme since the Ultimas moved into their middle trilogy almost 30 years ago. And Bioware prides themselves on this story telling nonsense, so I'm going to pick on them because they invite the scrutiny. It's not like I'm going to hold Bethesda's feet to the fire and start demanding good stories from them, because I know damn well they can't write their way out of a paper bag, and I'd rather they keep their goofy stories out of my open world game play anyway.

 

[Condiments]

I agree completely with you! Finally something with the gumption to say to Bioware,"its decent, but not good enough." I've been a fan of Bioware since the Baldur's gate series, but they're really set in their ways at the moment in terms of narrative. Dragon Age 2 could of been an interesting experience about REALISTIC struggle between equally sympathetic sides but they botched in more ways than I can imagine. I enjoy the mass effect series, but in the schlocky space opera sense. Its sort of a BIG DAMN HEROES SAVE THE DAY without narrative coherency(ME2 screwed the pooch story wise), and thematic depth of other sci-fi greats.

They're in a perfect position, in terms of financial and industry status, to challenge the status quo. If they can do something on the level of Mask of the Betrayer(we're not even TALKING about Planescape), I'm sure many gamers would be surprised. Many of us gamers are looking for something that will challenge us on a intellectual level, but they're chasing a different market.

Forget the romances, epic world/galaxy saving plots, EPICCC BOSS FIGHTZZZ, etc. and give me a deeply personal story. Obsidian/Black Isle has done it before where the PC has a personal stake in the conflict. SHAKE UP YOUR FORMULA! How about instead of having a completely complicit submissive second male lead how about you try something like Kreia? Mentor figure that is confrontational, challenges your leadership methods, and tries to make you look bad in front of the group? What about group dynamics? What about hidden motives in your group?

There is so much story potential they haven't tapped into its almost shameful.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Anyway, HK-47's dialogue alone is enough to disprove your statement.

HK-47 is the exception that proves the rule.

Apparently he's a boss you can kill in a TOR raid dungeon, now. Maybe he drops good boots, or something. There are times I think they've lost their minds.

 

[AlternatePFG]

Agreed completely. While I enjoy their games for what they are, it's always a bit irritating when they're considered to be masters of videogame storytelling. The problem is, that they don't get much competition from other developers in the story-centric RPG department. Bethesda focus more on open world games, and can't write their way out of a paper bag. While I love Obsidian, they haven't done an original IP since Alpha Protocol, which really didn't have much of a good story at all (The amount of choice in the game was crazy though) but that could change soon.

(Still love KOTOR despite that though. KOTOR I/II probably are tied for my second favorite games ever. KOTOR I has HK-47 and Jolee Bindo, they make up for the stupidity of the rest of the plot.)