Poll: Can you hate gay culture and not be homophobic?

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

well i would say your problem is more with excessive pride, rather than them being gay, which i can agree with to the maximum

i will be sitting in class minding my own business, but if you, at every opportunity possible, go flaunt mode for whatever reason, you are pushing my rage button faster than the speed of light; this i promise you.

so yeah, i'd agree.

hell i have a friend who was my friend for 8 years before he "came out of the closet" per se, and didn't change a thing basically, just glad he was able to tell us.

 

[Yopaz]

A lot of you claim you "don't flaunt" your sexuality. I'll tell you, unless you actively closet yourself (by never being seen with your partners in public, by never describing someone as your wife or girlfriend, by never talking about your children. In short, by deliberately hiding your romantic or personal life altogether, and even then you're not really closeting because no-one will ever assume you're gay without evidence) then you are "flaunting" your sexuality. The reason you don't see yourself as taking part in a "culture" is because that culture is the one we all live in, it's mainstream mass culture.

Exactly. Few people seem to complain about the constant, unrelenting barrage of heterosexuality our culture throws at us, because it's constant and unrelenting enough to be considered normal.

The reason we don't complain about the straight culture is that there are no parades where straight people show their pride in sexuality. There are more parades to celebrate homosexuals than there are to celebrate war veterans. Even being against war I think that's messed up.
I also find it annoying when straight people feel like they have to mention their straight in every sentence or make their life all about their sexuality. Really, I don't care if someone is gay or straight as long as they're able to shut up about it for 5 minutes.

First of all Gay Pride Parades are not for you, just like the Saint Patrick's Day Parade is not for you if you dont like Irish people flaunting their Irishness and God Damn them ALL for dragging sexuality into it with their "Kiss me I'm Irish" T-shirts...

Gay pride parades are for the gays and their allies that are in the city hosting the parade. There are a lot of cities, so there are a lot of parades. I am pretty sure that there are a lot of Vetrans parades in various cities around the world. In America I would suspect most of them would take place durring the 4th of July, Memorial Day, and Vetrans Day. I supsect you are ignorant of all these Vetrans Day parades becuase seriously for what reason would a Vetran's Day Parade taking place in Idontknowherethatis, Arkansas be news to you?

And where do you get off pretending you are the authority over whether or not a pride parade is only about sexuality? Have you ever been to a pride parade? There is some sexualty but that is not the only theme. A pride parade will have some men in skimpy outfits, sure. In high school I was a member of the marching band, and I remember being in several parades that had girls in skimpy outfits (cheerleaders and dance crews). OMG THOSE PARADES WERE FLAUNTING SEXUALITY!!! OF TEENAGERS!!! PUBLIC SCHOOLS FLAUNT THE SEXUALITY OF TEENAGERS! THOSE PEDOPHILES!

Do you see how this can get silly really quick. Open your eyes, and your mind, if not today then maybe someday you'll be able to see the bigger picture.

Sure, Veterans day is all about veterans. 4th of July is all about celebrating the end of historical oppression, victories, independence so those who have helped protect that takes part in it. Remember, it's Veteran's day, not week, not month. There's one day where they are remembered and shown respect by anyone who doesn't know them. I think that's the least they deserve after risking their lives to serve their country.
4th of July is about flaunting American values. Everything that is a source of national pride gets celebrated. It's not about flaunting a sexuality!
I am sure that when you played in the marching band and their were cheerleaders dancing around they were not flaunting a heterosexual lifestyle? In any case if they were I would say that's pretty obnoxious.
Yeah, I am aware of the fact that pride parades are about protesting to increase the rights of homosexuals, but claiming that this has little to do with their sexuality is stupid.

Now if you read my entire post rather than the start of it you will notice that I said something about straight people flaunting their sexuality... A little part where I said that's annoying too? I must ask you here. Have you ever seen a straight pride parade? If you haven't then my point is proven.

I see a heterosexual pride parade at every football game in the US. Why do cheerleaders dress the way they do if it has nothing to do with sexuality? Why do they insist on flirtation and sexual innuendo in their routines?

I did read your entire post, but why validate it. Why can you just let people be who they are and who they want to be? (Especially if they arent hurting you) Arent you right now through the vitues and miracles of the internet flaunting your beliefs and trying to cram your beliefs down other people's throats?

You dont want to hear about people's sex lives. I dont want to hear you complain. Now we're even.

You don't want to hear my opinion, then why did you bother to comment on my post in the first place? Why did you enter a thread where people share their opinions?
Now when cheerleaders perform when do they shout slogans stating they are straight? Can you prove that 100% of all cheerleaders are straight? Are all football games about showing off heterosexual pride?
If you want to know the answer to why they have cheerleaders is that it's a way to entertain the crowd while the team gets some rest. They chant the team's name to raise team spirit and to make the crowd do the same. It's a mild form of brainwashing. Horny men gets turned on by it and are more likely to go to the game to get a closer view.
Also you might be unaware of this, but not only straight men like women.

 

[alandavidson]

Phobic = Fearful of.

You can disapprove of homosexuality, and still not be afraid of it.

Funny, in chemistry class I learned about hydrophobic chemicals and chemical reactions. Tell me how a chemical can be afraid of water...

You are taking too literal and strict of a definition in order to dodge a label.

Thank you for reading my mind and then displaying my thoughts to the world. You should go into business doing that!
/sarcasm

Here's the reality: I don't care about sexual preference/orientation/programming/whatever. I have close friends who are gay, bi, lesbian, and pan, and I really don't care. I do care that you try to slap a label on me simply because I made a statement about the definition of the label. The fact is, you don't know me, so don't try to assume things about me, and don't try to pin something on me that is untrue.

 

[Timmehexas]

Pfft yes of course you can, I'm gay and most of "gay culture" annoys me. But hey its not my thing so I don't go to raves, have fashion sense, say the word fabulous or whatever is considered "gay culture" by your average person. It's all personality if someone has a personality that annoys the hell out of me I won't hang around that person it has nothing to do with their sexuality.

 

[Terminal Blue]

So, the only way to not flaunt your heterosexuality is to say you're homosexual?

Isn't that just a teensy weensy bit black and white for a very grey spectrum?

How about "My sexuality doesn't matter to you or anyone else, and any ideas of me 'flaunting' it are simply preconceptions built by your own experiences."

Because you don't know if I'm having sex as I write this. And you certainly don't know who/what with.

I agree totally, it's enormously black and white, but it's also kind of accurate in my experience. Remember, we're not talking about how people really are, but how they're perceived.

Very few gay people never closet themselves. As a bisexual, I have an enormous advantage in doing so because I seldom have to outright lie to people. But refusing your "flaunt" your sexuality does simply mean being read as heterosexual, and for many people it means lying in order to appear heterosexual. Everyone is heterosexual until proven otherwise and their heterosexuality will come up in day to day conversation frequently. I know because I started counting every time it happens to me.

Heterosexuality is tied to too much for it to be an unknown quantity. There isn't really any aspect of society which heterosexuality hasn't influenced or doesn't touch.

I don't know who you're sleeping with, but since normative social interaction is predicated on the assumption that we'll both be attracted to the opposite sex, if you're sleeping with someone of the same sex, sooner or later you'll be faced with the choice to lie about it or to tell the truth. Unfortunately for those who would simply tell the truth, people can react very badly when someone they imagined previously as heterosexual turns out not to be, it invokes a slightly bizarre feeling of betrayal in many people, particularly those of the same sex.

The method you're proposing would be great if it worked. However, in practice it comes down to simply pretending to be straight, with all the negative consequences that entails.

Reading on to some other posts here, people seem to be remarkably confused about the meaning of private space.

A conversation you're having with someone else is not 'private space', seeing someone make out in the street is not 'private space'. It's an enviable luxury to be able to regard the public world, because that's what these things are, as somehow devoid or neutral of sexuality, to the extent that any hint or association with same-sex intimacy in these contexts constitutes an 'invasion'.

Be honest with yourselves. If you just don't like talking about sex, if you don't like people identifying themselves as overtly sexual beings, if you don't like public displays of affection, how do you tolerate it at all the times when it's not same-sex? When have you ever said or done anything about it? If you genuinely are just a bunch of massive prudes, then go and put that into practice and be prepared to have heterosexuals laugh in your face when you tell them to stop kissing or that they shouldn't have a picture of their wife in their wallet because someone might see it.

Perhaps the answer is that you feel you just have to tolerate heterosexual intimacy, or perhaps the answer is that you just don't notice it. Either way, same conclusion, you're not being consistent.

The idea that mainstream gay culture is somehow 'more sexual' or 'more overt' than mainstream straight culture never ceases to amuse me.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Remember, we're not talking about how people really are, but how they're perceived.

I know quite a few heteros that are routinely treated as gay.

Everyone is heterosexual until proven otherwise and their heterosexuality will come up in day to day conversation frequently. I know because I started counting every time it happens to me.

...

Son, you are projecting like crazy. You could equally say 'Everyone is in love with me until proven otherwise.'

That's a VERY dangerous knife to hold.

The method you're proposing would be great if it worked. However, in practice it comes down to simply pretending to be straight, with all the negative consequences that entails.

Tell you what, try "being straight" for a while and say that you like women who are bald, or women who are fat.

See how much negative consequence you can take.

What you're confusing "flaunting" with is the underlying assumption of the "perfect partner", which NONE of us conform to.

It's all very well being prudish, but when have you ever acted on your supposed prudishness outside of a context in which same-sex intimacy is being invoked?

You've heard the phrase "Get a room" I'm sure.

Because some of us are straight, we've developed a pretty good "snogging filter", which immediately eliminates any overt PDAs - especially if one of those involved is someone we fancied.

Now, if someone alters their perceived sexuality in front of us, that can be seen as a betrayal and trigger a lot of deep seated fears.

Or do you not get equally mad when you see your gay friends "turning straight" or "straight fishing"?

 

[KingGolem]

That kind of makes sense, and I kind of do. I'm perfectly fine with two men (or women, whatever) having consensual sex in privacy and getting married in public, but I strongly disapprove of men wearing purple latex miniskirts and dancing through the streets grabbing their crotches. That I was in San Fransisco when I saw this makes no difference: such behavior is disgusting, and if I were a cop, I'd write that up as public indecency. That's really the only thing about them thats particularly objectionable: it's a bit immature to hate someone because they're into musical theater. I don't care for musical theater, but if someone else is, gay or straight, it does not matter.

Basically what I'm saying is, I don't hate gay people, I hate it when they act like sex-crazed lunatics. Fashion, musical theater, and whatever the hell else they're into is fine, and I don't see any reason to dislike them for that. Maybe if we just went ahead and gave them equal rights they wouldn't have the excuse of protesting and we could start enforcing that public indecency thing.

 

[VanTesla]

I can see a person not liking certain aspects of cultures and still not be phobic, racist, and etc. Hell I think a person should not be considered homophobic if they don't agree with the idea of gays if they are not spiteful, think bad about them, think they are lesser for who they are, and etc.

I know some homphobic people, non-phobic, and gay people. I try to tolerate the homophobic and just hope no discussions come up about it. Also every person is a hypocrit on similar subjects like being ok with one religion, but demonize another for being to weird... I do this to, but try to correct myself and keep as much a open-mind as I can.

 

[Terminal Blue]

I know quite a few heteros that are routinely treated as gay.

And?

I didn't say it wasn't possible, in fact, far from it. However, it's the marked category.

Son, you are projecting like crazy. You could equally say 'Everyone is in love with me until proven otherwise.'

This is quite an important concept in the social sciences, actually. It's called the 'marked category'.

I'm not sure that this is going to work as an illustrative method, it might be a bit predictable given what I've said, but it's worth a try.

Bob is a typical gay man in his forties. He's single, but would like to have a settled monogamous relationship and is getting tired of the club scene. His friends advise him to sign up to a gay dating site, which he eventually does. He starts talking to a man in a similar position with whom he seems to get on, and after writing back and forth they agree to meet at a local restaurant. Bob sits in the restaurant waiting for his date. It's a little late, and Bob is terrified he's going to get stood up. Just as he is about to give up, he recognizes his date from their profile picture and feels a surge of relief. His date apologises, and the two have a fantastic time.

Spoiler

When you imagined Bob just then, did you imagine him as black?

Deprived of sufficient information, people will tend (and as I said, that one may have been a little transparent) to conform the details of the situation to one which makes the fewest 'specific' assumptions, ignoring the fact that not making those specific assumptions carries its own hidden specific implications. Race is actually not a very good example, with sexuality however this occurs all the time.

Tell you what, try "being straight" for a while and say that you like women who are bald, or women who are fat.

See how much negative consequence you can take.

Urm.. are you sure I'd be lying?

And I'm sorry, I've never have someone come up to me and say 'do you have a thin girlfriend' or 'do you have a girlfriend with hair'. It really doesn't come up very often.

I think you have to have a pretty warped sense of how important heterosexuality is to most people's ordering of society in order to assume that it's no more influential than your partner's weight.

Or do you not get equally mad when you see your gay friends "turning straight" or "straight fishing"?

Umm.. no..

Why would I? That makes absolutely no sense.

On the very few occasions when I've had a gay friend realize they're attracted to someone of the opposite sex, it's been extremely unproblematic both for them and for me. We accept sexuality is complicated, we shrug, we move on. Being non-heterosexual means you're never going to have a perfect facsimile of a normal life, but that also means being free to choose. There is no standard to aspire to.

I have nothing to lose from my friends "turning straight". No interaction I have ever had or could have with them will become suspect or take on a new dimension which I would find personally threatening or challenging. I'm bisexual, I have nothing worth defending in this regard, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[VanTesla]

No problem with homosexuals whatsoever here, their business, not mine. But yes, I feel the same way. It is hard for me to deal with an 'out and proud' individual who uses their sexuality as their main defining characteristic. Bear in mind, I also have a problem with 'manly' men who talk about 'all the pussy I've tapped' or women who talk about how long some guy's dick is, etc. So I think it's more a matter of maintaining sexuality as a personal and private matter rather then telling the whole world about it. For me it more has to do with an individual's personality and what they base it on, rather then some broad condemnation of a sub-culture. Obviously I don't feel the need to control these people or anything, they're just people I'd rather not associate with. That's all.

And I'm the guy who hangs out with a transvestite. And he's awesome.

I know some gay friends that think some of the pride parades are extreme and go over the top and can be a negative light to people that may be on the fence of exceptance. They feel it may paint the wrong view on the lesser informed and cause more problems.

 

[Agayek]

I'm more or less with the OP on this one. I have absolutely no problem with people being gay, but I absolutely can't stand shit like gay pride parades and the various "I'm gay and you're gonna know it" statements I've seen. It's utterly ridiculous to prance around loudly announcing that you're gay for no further reason than because you can.

Congratulations, you're gay. Can you stop blocking traffic now?

PS - As a bit of a disclaimer, I grew up in San Francisco. Such behavior happens fairly regularly, especially in the Castro district. I've never been disturbed/uncomforted by someone being homosexual, just the apparent need to inform the universe about it while simultaneously being as aggravating as humanly possible.

 

[GrandmaFunk]

Hating an entire culture is pretty much always bad, and generally inexcusable.

regardless of how you want to label it.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Spoiler

When you imagined Bob just then, did you imagine him as black?

Nope. Why would I?

Tell you what, try "being straight" for a while and say that you like women who are bald, or women who are fat.

See how much negative consequence you can take.

Urm.. are you sure I'd be lying?

Doesn't matter.

And I'm sorry, I've never have someone come up to me and say 'do you have a thin girlfriend' or 'do you have a girlfriend with hair'. It really doesn't come up very often.

But if you say "I really like old/fat/disabled women", however much it's true, expect a shitstorm of negative words.

I think you have to have a pretty warped sense of how important heterosexuality is to most people's ordering of society in order to assume that it's no more influential than your partner's weight.

And you're welcome to think so. But try and find me some proof. Take a look for magazine articles that condemn weight and then put it against articles that condemn sexuality.

Or do you not get equally mad when you see your gay friends "turning straight" or "straight fishing"?

Umm.. no..

Why would I? That makes absolutely no sense.

You've never seen it? or it doesn't bother you?

Being non-heterosexual means you're never going to have a perfect facsimile of a normal life, but that also means being free to choose. There is no standard to aspire to.

So, being gay means you're "better" than us? Really? I warned you about that knife earlier.

I'm bisexual, I have nothing worth defending in this regard, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Nothing worth defending is a lot worse than nothing worth attacking. I'd rather be able to defend my loved ones.

 

[Blind Sight]

No problem with homosexuals whatsoever here, their business, not mine. But yes, I feel the same way. It is hard for me to deal with an 'out and proud' individual who uses their sexuality as their main defining characteristic. Bear in mind, I also have a problem with 'manly' men who talk about 'all the pussy I've tapped' or women who talk about how long some guy's dick is, etc. So I think it's more a matter of maintaining sexuality as a personal and private matter rather then telling the whole world about it. For me it more has to do with an individual's personality and what they base it on, rather then some broad condemnation of a sub-culture. Obviously I don't feel the need to control these people or anything, they're just people I'd rather not associate with. That's all.

And I'm the guy who hangs out with a transvestite. And he's awesome.

I know some gay friends that think some of the pride parades are extreme and go over the top and can be a negative light to people that may be on the fence of exceptance. They feel it may paint the wrong view on the lesser informed and cause more problems.

I've heard that argument from a gay friend before as well, he believes that the parades are so outlandish that it alienates people from being able to accept gays because it makes them appear far more different then they actually are. It's an interesting theory.

 

[ZeroDotZero]

To use a parallel, I dislike any culture that has an 'honour killing' system. Doesn't make me hate every member of that culture. We have a fundamental disagreement. So yes, it is possible.

 

[walrusaurus]

Hell, I am gay and i can't stand the 'queer culture.' So your definitely not alone.

I actually find them to be kind of sad. I can't imagine defining myself by my sexual orientation. There's so much more to life than just 'being gay' and doing 'gay things.' Being gay is just a footnote to who i am as a person. I'm a son, a friend, a nurse, and a musician, there are so many things that are so much more important and meaningful to me.

 

[Gecko clown]

I was about to come on and post "that's like saying can you hate black people without being racist." on this forum thread but then I read your post and am going to answer, people like that are dicks, and they're gay. When we see people who are dicks and are heterosexual we don't say "I hate all straight people." just deal with it.

 

[Slippers]

Tolerance does not imply agreeing with something, understanding something or loving something. Tolerance is you not punching them in the face because of those mentioned above.


My personal opinion on this matter. You can be as gay as you want, but if you jump on my table screaming "I'm gay!", I will kick you off.

 

[VanillaBean]

I like to hump homemade pasta, it's a part of who I am.

Genius.

In all serious I personally that nine out of ten people who are homophobic actually fall under this category.