No need to get all riled up. Also, I dont recall calling anyone a c*nt. I suggest editing your post a bit before you incur mod wrath.JustanotherGamer said:
Poll: Dark Souls: Time to Put Up or Shut Up.
- Thread starter Headdrivehardscrew
- Start date
Recommended Videos
I don't think it should have an "Easy Mode".
I've no issues with the concept. But, I do have issue with the time it'd take to design and implement it.
It's a game, games have rules, they have victory conditions and loss conditions.
A game like dark souls, the rules are heavily stacked against the player. That's the fun of the game, it's overcoming the odds.
Thus the game is designed as such, features at added with the mindset that the player will want to do them, for the challenge and to overcome it.
Once you remove that aspect, what's the point? You're making a mode of the game that's designed to be the opposite of the way you designed the rest of the game.
It's not going to be very fun.
I know there's probably some people saying "I'd enjoy Dark Souls" if it was easier, but, in actuality, I really don't think they would.
So, yes, if From Software has the time and the resources to make Dark Souls without taking up development time which would be better spent upon the core gameplay experience, maybe you can see about an introductory mode, or something, but, a straight up "Easy Mode" which would likely add a few weeks of development to be done right, wouldn't be the worth the time.
I've no issues with the concept. But, I do have issue with the time it'd take to design and implement it.
It's a game, games have rules, they have victory conditions and loss conditions.
A game like dark souls, the rules are heavily stacked against the player. That's the fun of the game, it's overcoming the odds.
Thus the game is designed as such, features at added with the mindset that the player will want to do them, for the challenge and to overcome it.
Once you remove that aspect, what's the point? You're making a mode of the game that's designed to be the opposite of the way you designed the rest of the game.
It's not going to be very fun.
I know there's probably some people saying "I'd enjoy Dark Souls" if it was easier, but, in actuality, I really don't think they would.
So, yes, if From Software has the time and the resources to make Dark Souls without taking up development time which would be better spent upon the core gameplay experience, maybe you can see about an introductory mode, or something, but, a straight up "Easy Mode" which would likely add a few weeks of development to be done right, wouldn't be the worth the time.
I have no interest in joining this debate; I've been trying to avoid it. I do, however, feel you're misconstruing the opposing side's argument.Headdrivehardscrew said:
The two sides, as I understand it, come down to this:
Against Easy Mode: "It's a fundamental change to the game, and would defeat the core engagement."
For Easy Mode: "We want to experience the game, and how we do so shouldn't be for you to decide."
So the people on the other side from you aren't calling enjoying the game 'elitism'. They're calling the stance that you can only enjoy the game your way 'elitism'.
Whether that's true or not is up to you guys/gals to sort out. I just don't like it when someone misrepresents the opposing side's argument. Strikes me too much like rhetoric and propaganda, which is not good for a constructive debate.
And that?s where people who know how to use their brain come up with a solution. You know, speaking of food? Outback knows people like prime rib and steak but want both so they offer a platter that gives a portion of each. This way people who only like the prime rib can get it, he ones who just want steak can indulge themselves, and lastly, the ones who want both CAN ALSO FUCKING ENJOY THIER MEAL. No one is taking your "hard" or "difficult" mode away by simply having an easy mode. The ONLY person that could would be YOURSELF if you choose to play easy (giving yourself ?gruel?). Unintelligent elitists are only going make the DS series into a one trick pony and last time I checked... one trick pony businesses go under. Heck, didn?t the lead person of the DS series already leave or is set to leave? *sigh* so many elitists, so many to educate, so many fucks being wasted... -_-JustanotherGamer said:
why is an easy mode that important in the first place?
dark souls, unlike most games of the recent generation, does not hold your hand. you are responsible for your actions. if you accidentally hit a vendor with your sword, it doesn't care that it was an accident, you have to absolve your sins or kill them or avoid them until NG+. if you accidentally backstep off a ledge, you could have been in better control of your hands and not tapped circle. if you got hit by an enemy while your hit was interrupted, then you should have attacked at a better opening, preferably after they attack and miss.
that is the difficulty of dark souls. that's why there shouldn't be an easy mode.
after playing demon's souls, i'd say dark souls is actually loads better at explaining things like statistics. open the menu and pay attention to your command options.
dark souls, unlike most games of the recent generation, does not hold your hand. you are responsible for your actions. if you accidentally hit a vendor with your sword, it doesn't care that it was an accident, you have to absolve your sins or kill them or avoid them until NG+. if you accidentally backstep off a ledge, you could have been in better control of your hands and not tapped circle. if you got hit by an enemy while your hit was interrupted, then you should have attacked at a better opening, preferably after they attack and miss.
that is the difficulty of dark souls. that's why there shouldn't be an easy mode.
after playing demon's souls, i'd say dark souls is actually loads better at explaining things like statistics. open the menu and pay attention to your command options.
One person?s fun may not be to another. My wife would like to play the game and experience the story and details herself because I can talk about Dark Souls for hours on end but she doesn't have the skill to get past the Asylum Demon. People have mentioned what makes dark souls fun which is: discovery (EpicNameBro has hours of YT vids on lore), challenges, PvP, helping/assisting other, and overcoming the odds. You think it?s fun to watch someone talk about a game or is it fun to actually experience it for yourself? What people don't understand is that all their bitching about how there can't be an easy mode in dark souls has done one of two things that I can think of. One it will make Fromsoft put in an easy mode either by making the game as a whole easier (which is hilarious since they already made Dark Souls easier then Demons Souls), or just leaving the game as is and losing out on revenue that could be used to better the series for a possible third installment.The Lunatic said:
Dark Souls is not an outstandingly hard game.Master_Fubar23 said:
It's definitely more difficult than the average, but, it's not some reserved chalice only the most prestigious gamers can drink from.
So, one really has to question why, if somebody enjoys the game, they don't try to overcome the hump of difficulty the game comes with?
I don't mean to speak out of turn, and addressing one's significant other is always a bit awkward, but, surely, if somebody enjoys the game, they'll work to overcome such things? I can only really speak from first-hand experience with games, but, generally if I know there's a game I'm going to enjoy, assuming I get past a small bump or learn to do things a bit differently, I generally try to do that.
Anyone can beat Dark Souls. They just have be interested enough in it to learn how.
So, the idea that time should be taken to make it easier, for people who aren't interested enough in the game to overcome the present design seems a bit odd to me.
Your right, the game doesn't hold your hand. However, do you start a child on a motorcycle when trying to learn to ride a bike? No, you start them on the training wheels until they can ride without them.ultrabiome said:
It's already fuckin' here [http://darksouls.wikidot.com/],jesus.Headdrivehardscrew said:
However I do agree proper tutorials to the basics of the game should be done,so people have more room to explore and create builds and strategies of their own,rather than being given them on silver platter via the interwebs.But then again people are lazy and will do that anyway,because its easier,requires less thought and effort.
Well,welcome to roguelikes.Here's a shocker: Dark Souls isn't a roguelike,it was never meant to be.Now let get me get back on my 39th run of FTL.Headdrivehardscrew said:
There's a saying someone is born to "two left feet". This can be applied to hands and really the idiom applies to anyone who can't doing something well. It's not about "not being interested to learn how to play" it?s more of they literally can't at the moment. As I stated in my last post, you start a child on training wheels before you move them to a bike. That is what an easy mode would provide for people who aren't skilled enough to beat the game. Also, you mention about taking the time away to develop an easy mode but really, that extra cost would be offset by the people who think they could now play the game. And by having people actually be able to approach the game they then could learn the game better. I'd even bet that those people would like DS2 so much that they would reply on the normal setting and if they enjoyed that go out and buy the first dark souls to enjoy that one. Ultimately, I really hope the developers make Dark Souls 2, ship it without an easy mode, and then patch in one after a couple weeks. That way the elitists and fanboys in general would have already bought the game and Fromsoft can enjoy increased profits. Then all the bitching and complaining would be moot and the nerd rage to follow would only serve to point out that the children or people with small egos are wrong and selfish.The Lunatic said:
Hey, just in case - you seem to have missed my point and stance and everything:T3hSource said:
I LOVE DARK SOULS
as is, too.
And yes, if people really want to cheat themselves out of doing shit themselves, they can hop onto the wiki on their ipads and go for a round of playing-by-numbers. They also have several in-game options to choose and pick, thus making their game more 'easy'. The question was more focussed on the recent incessant demand for an 'easy' option to be picked right at the title screen, mostly ignoring the very nature of Dark Souls itself and the various implications of it. Only a chosen few came up with somewhat viable ideas like multiple shards/servers, and even though I could go for such an approach in raw theory, I think it's pretty ignorant seeing at how just those - still existing - single regional servers were scheduled to have been put out of commission several times already. Servers cost money, all our online games will, eventually, only be playable offline.
As to roguelikes: Hey. I'm old. Been rogueish for thirty years and counting and loving it. I love roguelike. What's the one thing that makes Dark Souls non-roguelike? The missing randomization bit? real-time combat instead of turn-based combat? The actual absence of permadeath? Hey, I love all of those, since I love Dark Souls, as is. It was just a summary of what Dark Souls has been described both by prolific videogame journalists before it came out, and by reviewers as it came out, and people - most of whom have never played Dark Souls - ever since it came out. Shit doesn't have to be true to stick, y'know.
Dark Souls - Beats Sudokus and crossword puzzles in my books. And, yes, FTL rocks, but it doesn't tingle my tastebuds like Dark Souls does. Dark Souls makes me think and ponder and read and draw and paint and discuss and dream and long and love. FTL does a lot of things, but it doesn't do that for me.
Here's a good test for anyone in this thread who is adamantly against the idea of an "easy mode" but swears up and down that they are not elitist.
Would you support an "easy mode" for Dark Souls if you were guaranteed that normal "hard mode" would not be affected in any way? The same experience you had would be 100% intact, only now there would be tiers of difficulty, offering easier versions of the same experience. Lowly casual gamers would be able to play the game, and put their hands all over the same content you did. Fight the same foes, get the same loot, see the same places, celebrate the same accomplishments...only easier. Would that bother you?
If the answer is "No, of course not", you are not elitist. At least not in this circumstance. You're probably just worried that too much tampering with difficulty levels will compromise the existing game.
If the answer is "Strangely, yes", congratulations, you are a big fat elitist. That sense of defensiveness you feel when someone calls you out on it is probably latent shame.
May the first person to respond to this post with "Yes but implementing an easy mode without damaging the game is impossible because of (bullshit reasons)" be buggered by clowns.
Would you support an "easy mode" for Dark Souls if you were guaranteed that normal "hard mode" would not be affected in any way? The same experience you had would be 100% intact, only now there would be tiers of difficulty, offering easier versions of the same experience. Lowly casual gamers would be able to play the game, and put their hands all over the same content you did. Fight the same foes, get the same loot, see the same places, celebrate the same accomplishments...only easier. Would that bother you?
If the answer is "No, of course not", you are not elitist. At least not in this circumstance. You're probably just worried that too much tampering with difficulty levels will compromise the existing game.
If the answer is "Strangely, yes", congratulations, you are a big fat elitist. That sense of defensiveness you feel when someone calls you out on it is probably latent shame.
May the first person to respond to this post with "Yes but implementing an easy mode without damaging the game is impossible because of (bullshit reasons)" be buggered by clowns.
Master_Fubar23 said:
First of all, unless someone is born with a diagnosed neurological disorder which inhibits the formation of new synapses in the brain, all it takes to get better is practice, observation, patience, and self-analysis. The excuse that "some people won't get better no matter how hard or smart they try" has no scientific foundation when referring to the vast majority of the population. The more you practice something, the more that action is recorded into your muscle memory.
Now with Dark Souls, most gamers can easily gain the physical coordination necessary to beat the game. Its controls are not that different from other games, with the exception of playing it on mouse and keyboard. As such, your argument only holds ground when talking about new players to gaming in general, and I do not think that Dark Souls is a good game to be introduced to gaming with.
With your argument about training wheels, Dark Souls ALREADY has training wheels. You start off easy with a few enemies, a VERY easy boss, and a bunch of lowly undead. As the game progresses, it gets a LOT harder.
If someone can't beat the Asylum Demon after their first few tries, they just need to try some more. If the game suddenly became easier for them, then when presented with the next obstacle the jump in difficulty would be even greater.
Why?
Because success is a horrible teacher when compared to failure. When you succeed, you are much less likely to look back and find out just exactly WHY you succeeded unless you had already failed a whole bunch of times. Failure gives you a chance to reflect, success from overcoming an obstacle after lots of failures gives you the chance to reflect, but success that comes from making the obstacle easier or succeeding the first time gives you a lot less to reflect on. As such, your skills at the game don't increase as much as they should have.
Finally, another flaw with your bike analogy is that training wheels are meant for children to get the motions of riding a bike down into muscle memory without physically hurting themselves. They still need to learn balance when they get on a real bike. Also, Dark Souls doesn't physically hurt people.
Edit:
Also, the argument that adding options so that more people can play the game IS a good argument. For almost any OTHER game.
Dark souls in not like other games and adding an easy mode WOULD affect the game drastically, especially in the multiplayer which hasn't even been brought up yet.
Wow,just because I said "fuckin'" doesn't mean I have completely negative implications,is cool mang.Headdrivehardscrew said:
This was my point: that people are lazy and would never even think about this 'easy' mode,but that requires effort and actual thinking,something an astonishing amount of people just don't want to do for anything in the world,let along a video game.Headdrivehardscrew said:
So the real question is: Do people want to rob themselves from a unique experience,by giving them the choice to do so at the very start without even trying to grasp the game's mechanics and undertones which make or brake it for every player? My answer would be 'No,I don't want them to have it on a silver platter,I think it would be better if they find it themselves and discover Dark Souls.'-and this is an opinion of a non-player,just a viewer.Headdrivehardscrew said:
EDIT: It just came to me that this discussion brought up by ignorant journalists is going to lose any value whatsoever once Namco start their marketing campaign:"Prepare...for the hardest game this decade!" since subtlety will be mostly thrown out the window,because the brand has too much popularity now,and subtlety doesn't do well for hype marketing according to the common marketing businessman.And adding an "easy mode" on release would be counter-productive to that.
What if I told you that the mere bit of 'adding an option' is a rather complicated thing?Akratus said:
What if I told you that there are already several (at least three significant) in-game choices to be made to make the game 'easier', both for the offline and online mode?
Don't get me wrong, I really try to use truckloads of logic to bury my own emotions under. But, alas, so far, logic seems to be rare in this thread, and thoughts are imperfect, unfinished, not worked out and more of a, let's say, trigger-response fashion, mostly just rallying against the perceived 'elitism' of individuals that do, actually, enjoy the game as is.
Oh, and there's also the bit where people don't just jump to the bacon option, but out of some odd perception of injustice and lack of inclusiveness for the masses go for the YES vote, spicing things up with plenty of hatred, expressing how much they think little or downright despise people that like the game as is, calling them names and suggesting there is something wrong with their attitudes or brains. I think that's one of my main gripes with the more vocal proponents of 'easy mode'.
It's like Che Guevara going to Africa.
And that's why I made my own thread.
Welcome.