Poll: Dark Souls: Time to Put Up or Shut Up.

[Master_Fubar23]

snip.

snip.

I didn?t say I played on the white world tendency. If I play the hardest shit I can get my hands on why would IIIII need an easy mode? I don?t, I preferred the blackest in demons souls, while didn?t state that I did state that there was an easy mode. Which was to point out that everyone?s view on there should be no easy mode is moot. Since there already was an easy mode in the series and they actually made dark souls easier than demons IMO. However, people should be able to have a choice to start (keyword) on a white tendency if they wanted to since they may not be able to beat anything else. LMAO, cheat myself? No, I?ve already passed both games several times which is how I can understand why there needs to be an easy mode. The only people that are being cheated right now are the people who bought the game and can?t play it because they can?t get passed a certain point? plain and simple. Yet again you talk about YOURSELF and YOUR experience or how fun/fair it is to YOU (elitist mentality). I don?t care if THEY get a level 792 (Max level) character twice, four, or eight times as fast as I could or if it does more damage than I would as the same level, it wouldn?t affect how I play the game or how much I enjoy it. Someone talked about halo which is perfect. My brother passed it on easy while I passed it on legendary and we were still able to talk about how fun or cool the game was. His skill isn?t on par with mine but each section to him was as hard as it was for me on legendary. If I sat there and forced him to play on a harder mode he wouldn?t get anywhere. When I played co-op he didn?t have fun since I was killing everything for him and he was being walked through a level. People play games to play them not to just move the joystick forward to walk through a game (expect for like 3 games). However, the summoning system is great in dark souls since people can choose to summon if they need the help but yet again it?s that person?s choice.

How to handle pvp? Simple, easy mode goes to one shard and normal goes to another. You can?t exploit one server while being on a different shard/server. Smurfing is not even a concern. Nothing should make up for individual skill so if someone wants to go to the easy mode shard instead of going to the normal one then so be it. They?re obviously mentally broken and you can?t fix an online bully. With this in mind Dark Souls is like a PvP server on WoW but a bit actually more forgiving. Don?t want to get attacked? Stay hallow. Need help? Become human, summon, and make a mad dash to the boss if you?re getting invaded a lot. No change to the normal mode. If you?re worried about server sizes, then you shouldn?t be. Since if there?s more people playing on the easy shard of DS2 then that will tell the developer?s what the people really want which I don?t have a problem with. In regards to ?honorable? opponents, many people whom I agree with have suggested to put in an arena type area hell some have even suggested putting in another covenant for dueling. So as I stated having different shards/servers there is no destroying anything and in fact it would make your pvp better since all those that would be on the normal server would be those with the skills to fight which would make a better for better a pvp setting.

 

[Azure23]

I love Dark Souls

It's undoubtably my favorite game of the generation and I've put hundreds of hours into it making different characters (Leeroy build, all of gwyn's knights, shiva, etc.) so I think its fair to say I'm a dark souls fanatic. Do you remember the first time you parried the silver knight sniper, when after dying over and over you finally stuck your blade in his belly and kicked him off that narrow ledge? I do, I remember it fondly. That feeling is what makes Dark Souls different from other games, at least for me. I can't get that anywhere else, but if you just want hacky-slashy action in a medieval setting? There are other games for you. Dark Souls' difficulty operates on the slow burn of discovery. Of learned behaviors, see that mob of armored zombie warriors? Pull them across the narrow bridge with a bow, don't rush in, be smart. I hate the description of "hardcore," its unnecessary and is becoming increasingly irrelevant as gaming becomes more and more common. People are being drawn to gaming, but they have to be helped along a bit if they want to experience games like Dark Souls. That doesn't mean an easy mode is the right answer, and I'll tell you why.

Dark Soul's main barrier to entry isn't its mechanical difficulty, the combat is tactical but largely timing and precision based. Anyone can learn how to effectively pull enemies and parry/ backstab. An easy mode adjusting the health and damage of enemies isn't the answer here. The Soul's series needs to be more accessible, and by that I mean they need to implement a much more effective tutorial. Too many people go through the asylum without reading the developers messages, and don't understand what everything means or even how to effectively control their character. And as a result they get too frustrated (note I said too, if you're not a bit frustrated playing a souls game then something isn't right) and are unwilling to play more. As a tutorial, the undead asylum kind of sucks. Maybe an in game guide explaining the more esoteric game mechanics like Poise? And maybe a cryptic message or two in the starting area hinting where to go next? Too often I saw message boards with people getting angry over those skeletons in the graveyard at Firelink and giving up because the "starting area" is so hard. As for the lore, I really hope they keep it the way it is, mysterious and fascinating because of its mystery. The last fantasy game I played (aside from DS) was Amalur, and it's lore bored me to tears, it puts it all out there in huge exposition dumps. I much prefer the drip feed of interesting names and events in DS, and putting together the timeline of this beautiful and ruined world for myself. The gameplay of Dark Souls is what caught me, but its the slow discovery of the fascinating lore thats kept me coming back, even now I'm still discovering new things.

P.S. Solaire is the first born (confirmed by the sunlight medal's appearance (it has his personal sigil on it) in addition to his shield's description))

 

[Legion]

I haven't played the game so don't know how they create difficulty, but if it's simply a matter of reducing damage taking and increasing damage output, then I don't see the issue as nobody is being affected if they don't want to play on an easier mode.

If it is like some other games where you can't merely change stats and the game itself would need to have it's design changed in order to become easier for some people, then I can understand how it would annoy the original fans and I'd say they have a valid complaint.

 

[Azure23]

I think they should.

With an easy mode, it will make more money and any time hard working game designers have the chance to do that, they should jump on it.

And anyone who is honestly against it, you're a silly.
Your precious "HARD-FUCKING-CORE BRAH" mode will be untouched. You're being a dick if you really want to exclude people from enjoying something just because you like challenge.

Please understand that a large majority of DS players do want more people playing the game, I certainly do, it gets old running into the same eight people in the Darkroot Forest all day. Most of us simply don't believe that an easy mode (i'm defining this as adjusting the enemies' damage and health, along with player poise, damage, etc.) is the answer to getting new people into the souls series. Dark Souls is an awesome game, and i'm forever proselytizing it to my friends and fellow gamers, however I always give it a warning label: "it can be kind of hard to understand at first." Which is very true, I'd direct you to my other post on this thread for more specific ideas about how to make the game more accessible for new players. And once again, please understand that "Hard fucking core brah mode" has nothing to do with the argument. We're not elitists, just passionate about a really fun, unique game.

 

[Headdrivehardscrew]

"Honorable opponent"? Or do you mean "an opponent that fights on my terms"? One man's "cheapness" is another man's "tactical decision". Again, more romanticized mumbo jumbo.

If the strengths of my player character lie in deception, stealth and finesse, that's what you can expect if we happen to run into a scuffle. I will not engage in an "honorable duel", I will stab you in the back. Then run. Then lie in wait. Then ambush you. Then throw dust in your eyes and stab you in the back again.

And trying to guilt trip me into dropping the strengths of my character because that would let you gain the upper hand before the fight even starts is not at all "honorable". It's "cheap". Think about it.

No.

By 'honourable opponent' I am referring to someone that plays his or her character of choice, du jour or just for that session proper. He or she knows what he or she is doing, and they know what their specific character build is made of and for, for they built it themselves. They have made educated choices about what to bring to the battle, and they know how to use everything to their advantage. They also know where to run to, where to hide, when and where to approach and when to stay away.

In Dark Souls, if it comes to melee range and our intimate little dance of death, we all fish for the backstab or the parry/riposte. You diss my 'romantic mumbo jumbo', so I'll hold back on going any further into petty little things like emotions and honour, I guess. Yes, I'll hide, disguise, misguide and pummel the crap out of you; it's what I do. It's what I enjoy doing in Dark Souls.

I think it's a pity when people don't at least acknowledge the beauty of, say, pretty much anything in Anor Londo. The architecture is breathtaking already, and then there's the rafters in the church or the polished marble floors - how can you dismiss all that beauty and all that work that went into creating it?

My main character is a rogue so quick and nimble you'd wish you were naked. As I said, if the strength of your character relies on bugs, exploits and anything but game mechanics proper, we cannot enjoy or even discuss the very same thing; we live on different planets. I'll still try my best to kill your ass dead and dance on your corpse, though.

 

[Vegosiux]

By 'honourable opponent' I am referring to someone that plays his or her character of choice, du jour or just for that session proper. He or she knows what he or she is doing, and they know what their specific character build is made of and for, for they built it themselves. They have made educated choices about what to bring to the battle, and they know how to use everything to their advantage. They also know where to run to, where to hide, when and where to approach and when to stay away.

So basically just "someone who knows what they're doing" then? That's what I meant when talking about "romanticized mumbo jumbo".

In Dark Souls, if it comes to melee range and our intimate little dance of death, we all fish for the backstab or the parry/riposte. You diss my 'romantic mumbo jumbo', so I'll hold back on going any further into petty little things like emotions and honour, I guess. Yes, I'll hide, disguise, misguide and pummel the crap out of you; it's what I do. It's what I enjoy doing in Dark Souls.

Point is, you are not entitled to have people fight on your terms. If someone invades you 2-on-1, that's their perogative. Nobody owes you a kind of fight you want, you do not get to set the rules. And yes, talking about "honor" in this context is just self-serving.

Nobody likes exploiters, naturally, but ganging up on/getting ganged up on is fair game in any multiplayer game that carries hostility options.

I think it's a pity when people don't at least acknowledge the beauty of, say, pretty much anything in Anor Londo. The architecture is breathtaking already, and then there's the rafters in the church or the polished marble floors - how can you dismiss all that beauty and all that work that went into creating it?

Oh come on, that fell right smack dab in the middle of the "STOP NOT LIKING WHAT I LIKE!" territory.

I'm not buying that "all that hard work" for a second. I mean, sure, I acknowledge a lot of work went into it, but that doesn't mean I have to like it or find it beautiful. The world came across as bland and uninteresting to me. If that displeases you or something, well, that's not my problem, and frankly told, expecting people to share your tastes and principles is a rather dickish thing to do. And, by the way, visuals are the least important thing for me when it comes to judging how interesting the world is.

My main character is a rogue so quick and nimble you'd wish you were naked. As I said, if the strength of your character relies on bugs, exploits and anything but game mechanics proper, we cannot enjoy or even discuss the very same thing; we live on different planets. I'll still try my best to kill your ass dead and dance on your corpse, though.

Yeah, well, maybe I wouldn't wish I was naked, and maybe I'd just roll my eyes in exasperation at your chest-thumping and proceed to dice your liver while you're in the middle of your "This is why I'm so awesome" speech.

I'll just repeat. Nobody likes exploiters, but invading someone 2 on 1; or calling a friend to help you out when you're getting invaded yourself, is well within "game mechanics proper".

But I think I'm sensing a pattern here. I'm sorry, other players do not exist to validate you, they're playing their own games, they're not there for you to defeat and feel good about it.

 

[Sir Thomas Sean Connery]

I think they should.

With an easy mode, it will make more money and any time hard working game designers have the chance to do that, they should jump on it.

And anyone who is honestly against it, you're a silly.
Your precious "HARD-FUCKING-CORE BRAH" mode will be untouched. You're being a dick if you really want to exclude people from enjoying something just because you like challenge.

Please understand that a large majority of DS players do want more people playing the game, I certainly do, it gets old running into the same eight people in the Darkroot Forest all day. Most of us simply don't believe that an easy mode (i'm defining this as adjusting the enemies' damage and health, along with player poise, damage, etc.) is the answer to getting new people into the souls series. Dark Souls is an awesome game, and i'm forever proselytizing it to my friends and fellow gamers, however I always give it a warning label: "it can be kind of hard to understand at first." Which is very true, I'd direct you to my other post on this thread for more specific ideas about how to make the game more accessible for new players. And once again, please understand that "Hard fucking core brah mode" has nothing to do with the argument. We're not elitists, just passionate about a really fun, unique game.

I get that and in some instances, I agree. Gamers would have more fun if they played games the way they're meant be to be played.

And after reading your post, I agree that explanations are better than modifying the mechanics.

However, I feel there should still be an option for a Dark Souls with modified mechanics as it is neither mine, nor your responsibility to play nanny to such gamers and force them to play something our way because we think it's best for them.

 

[Master_Fubar23]

snip

But I think I'm sensing a pattern here. I'm sorry, other players do not exist to validate you, they're playing their own games, they're not there for you to defeat and feel good about it.

Well said and couldn't agree more.

 

[Headdrivehardscrew]

I love Dark Souls

A kindred spirit, then? Thank you for your contribution. Where do I sign to mother your children?

I believe I agree with everything you said. Even on Youtube, even from somewhat 'established' let's play folks, you get videos where they just run over the written-down instructions, scrawled all over the floor, ignoring them only to wonder about how to do the most simple things, like running or blocking, a second later - when it's written down right there.

I wouldn't want any pop-ups or more in-your-face guidance in a Souls game. The way it is handled, it allows the first time player to read everything (and get used to watching out for scrawled down notes from other players), and it allows the seasoned player to just run around and go straight for the jugular or butt cheek or tail of whatever boss is up next.

I also like how my screen is not cluttered with fighter plane HUDs, personal GPS maps and other 'helpful' tools that would only detract from the immersion and experience that is Dark Souls.

Yes, I remember Silver Knight snipers. Only three of them that keep posing a threat that is not to be underestimated, ever. The other ones scared and annoyed me proper the first time around... no more. flank them, gank them, pull them, pummel them... I think everybody remembers the first time they went through a fog wall and landed right on top of a big bad demon. Everybody remembers the first time they tried to sneak up on that black knight just standing down that passage in Undead Burg. Maybe he won't notice me. Oops.

Everybody remembers the first time they figured something out in Dark Souls, be it map-wise or in regards to controlling the character and have a firm grasp over what to do and what not to do in combat. You don't get that when you play-by-numbers after a Youtube video.

You'll inevitably remember the locations, the vistas, the intricacies of the game worlds of Demon's and Dark Souls, for you're bound to sneak through them at first, then, eventually, you'll confidently zip and run and jump and dodge and roll like it's no big thing, for you've learned to move about without dying - much or at all mostly just relies on situational awareness, using the very basic built-in memory capability of that brain of ours we lug around, some not-so-basic motor skills and going with the flow of things.

I'll take a game like Dark Souls over Sudoku any time.

 

[Exius Xavarus]

I am curious in regards to an easy mode as to where exactly you would stop. You add in an easy option and some number of people can now play the game at their own level, however the experience is now within the grasp of another group of people for whom 'easy' isn't quite easy enough.

So what happens? Add in another easier mode and repeat the cycle again until eventually the game in question is impossible to fail? Taken to the logical extreme it would completely dilute the experience. May as well just play Progress Quest

Easy Mode is where they stop. =p Unless they wanna go for Casual mode like Mass Effect.

I don't personally care if an Easy Mode was added or not. All I'd be concerned with is whether it affects the core experience.

I still maintain that the easiest way to incorporate an Easy Mode is to reverse engineer what Capcom did with Dragon's Dogma to add a Hard Mode. They increased the damage you take and increased the amount of stamina you use. The enemies themselves are no stronger or weaker than they once were, it's just that the Arisen himself(these changes affect only the Arisen, Pawns are left alone entirely) is more vulnerable to the world around him. They also increased the amount of gold that monsters can drop and they doubled the amount of XP gained from every kill. The amount you require is left the same, you just earn double XP. Basically, more difficult combat in order to reduce the tedium you must suffer.

So if we simply decreased the amount of damage the Chosen Undead takes and decrease the amount of stamina he uses, that could sufficiently make the game easier by itself. Don't make the AI too dumb to fight, don't modify the environments, don't make the enemies any weaker or stronger, leave the entire world itself completely alone. That by itself would make Dark Souls into a much easier game by giving the player extra play room on how they spend their stamina on dodging, blocking and attacking all the while giving the player a larger margin of error should they take a direct hit. It can easily be done without compromising the core experience of the normal mode players who like their punishing experiences.

But leaving the game alone at just that would make the game even more rewarding for much less effort. I would also suggest that the amount of souls earned per kill is also decreased by a reasonable amount. Perhaps decreased by a quarter of the normal amount or entirely half the amount you earn normally. This makes it so the player takes a little while longer to level up and if they want more souls they have to work harder for those souls. Decreasing the difficulty but also increasing the tedium you have to suffer in order to become a high level badass, incentivising playing on normal mode. Those of us tackling harder difficulties should reap bigger rewards.

 

[Ushiromiya Battler]

Yes.

Sorry you don't want the dirty casuals touching your things. Sorry we want an entertainment industry to entertain people.

snip

The problem with his entire argument it that it amounts to

"I don't think people will enjoy it, so it shouldn't exist"

and

"I think its mere existence will ruin my experience"

which are both nothing but presumptions.

''Hey, is that Amnesia you are playing? Damn that looks scary. Hey, I don't really like scary games, so why not add an easy mode where everything is bright and sounds aren't that scary! And maybe we should make sure that monster can't kill you after all! And maybe add a few weapons, so we can kill it!''

If you don't like the game as it is, stay the fuck away from it and stop thinking you're entitled to have an easy mode for a game that is BUILT around the concept that It's not supposed to be easy.
Is that so damn hard to understand? The game is meant for people that like a challenge. Not for people that doesn't even notice there is a goddamn tutorial in the game.
Jesus Christ!

And they've already decided what to do. DS2 will have a more streamlined and clearer tutorial and no easy mode.

 

[Vegosiux]

[The game is meant for people that like a challenge.

I don't like challenge to my patience and tolerance for showing off with pranks. I like challenge to my skills, perception and problem-solving.

 

[Texas Joker 52]

Do I wish that Dark Souls had an 'easy' mode? As loaded a question as that is, shit, I'll answer it.

Yes. Yes I do.

Why? Because it would be an option. More options are generally a good thing, and it allows more people to play the same game without homogenizing everything popular into one singular mass that no one ends up liking as a result. If need be, it can cut off the online aspect entirely as a result, simply so that someone playing on 'easy' doesn't have to mess with someone else playing on 'hard' or 'normal'.

It wouldn't ruin the game if done properly. It doesn't take away anyone's fun since it would be optional. And it shouldn't change the base game if anyone doesn't want to take that option.

 

[Twilight_guy]

I think the people who are most adamant about not adding an easy mode had fetishized the difficulty of the game to an almost zealous level. No good can come of that.

 

[EboMan7x]

I think Dark Souls 1's story is entirely dependent on it being completely fucking impossible. It's about an endless struggle of both one and many. You know it's a harsh and unforgiving world, but you also know that there are thousands upon thousands of others going through the same thing, and willing to help you if need be. Putting in an easy mode would make it seem cheap. I'd resent that the lost souls playing easy mode can still ask for help of me when I know there are people out there who really need it. It breaks the reality of the game if when you hop into somebody else's world you can suddenly kill the boss with three hits from an only slightly higher class weapon. Dark Souls is a community, not a single player experience in any sense of the word. We're in it together, and I think that's beautiful. But if just before you start playing and enter into the world you're asked "Would you like to enter into the Easy World, the Medium World or the Hard World?" than it's just silly and reality breaking, and it defies role playing to choose anything other than easy.

So no. Dark Souls should not have an easy mode.

Dark Souls 2 on the other hand is a totally different story. I have no idea how much they plan on changing it from the original, and if they alter it enough and in such a way that I feel Easy Mode is justified, that's fine. It might not feel like Dark Souls anymore, but it might still be good based on its own merits.

ADDED IN EDIT: However, I should add that I would not be optimistic about such a thing were I to find out its in Dark Souls 2. In general, I feel that when a game tailored to a specific audience like Dark Souls tries to appeal to larger audiences it ends up being a gross hybrid that neither the average gamer nor the original audience can enjoy as fully. I will point to Dragon Age 2, Dead Space 3, Deus Ex: Invisible War and hesitantly to Metroid: Other M and Bioshock 2.

 

[Ickorus]

I say no because it would turn it from a tough dungeon crawler into a sub-par hack-and-slash which would in turn cause people who start the game and play it on easy mode* would be quickly turned off and would likely give their friends negative feedback about the game which would in turn mean less sales.

Apologies for the run-on sentence.

[small]* Most people I know don't start a game on the harder difficulty first, they'll go for the easier mode to get a handle of the game then perhaps move up to the hard mode if they feel up to it later.[/small]

EDIT: Best Captcha ever:

 

[Saregon]

I haven't played it yet, but I don't see why it's such a huge deal. I mean, why does a game-albeit one known for its difficulty- having an easy mode threaten the people who have finished it? It doesn't take away from their achievement, and many people simply don't have time to slog through a game on hard, or simply aren't good enough to do it. That shouldn't mean they don't get to experience the content at all.

By the way, that whole mess with the PC port not having proper high-res settings, has that been fixed, or do you still need to mod it in? Because that will affect which version of the game I get.

 

[thesilentman]

This topic is a virus; why can't it go away? :'-(

WWWWWWHHHHHHHHYYYYYYYYY??????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!

I haven't played it yet, but I don't see why it's such a huge deal. I mean, why does a game-albeit one known for its difficulty- having an easy mode threaten the people who have finished it? It doesn't take away from their achievement, and many people simply don't have time to slog through a game on hard, or simply aren't good enough to do it. That shouldn't mean they don't get to experience the content at all.

I personally think that this is a bit of a knee jerk reaction, but I can see where the anti-easy mode guys are coming from. Difficulty is such an essential part of the overall experience that even the simple act of adding an easy mode jeopardizes the whole experience. Other people have done a better job than I ever could explaining this.

By the way, that whole mess with the PC port not having proper high-res settings, has that been fixed, or do you still need to mod it in? Because that will affect which version of the game I get.

Yes, but not officially.

OT- I thought this topic died off; who revived it? I need to kick them hard as this is something we've argued back and forth since fucking Christmas. Christmas. Can we move the fuck on, please?