Poll: Dark Souls: Time to Put Up or Shut Up.

[xshadowscreamx]

with this obsession i should just buy this game right now.

 

[Phlakes]

Yes.

Sorry you don't want the dirty casuals touching your things. Sorry we want an entertainment industry to entertain people.

snip

The problem with his entire argument it that it amounts to

"I don't think people will enjoy it, so it shouldn't exist"

and

"I think its mere existence will ruin my experience"

which are both nothing but presumptions.

 

[Colt47]

I think Dark Souls should be changed to have a proper fuckin manual.

I mean I Started this game yesterday, and this game, like how many games before it, Elder Scrolls Oblivion being one, doesn't have shit for a manual.

HOW HARD IS IT to put in a page, that tells what the symbols mean? This is your weapon damage, this your weight, this is whatever.

10 pages of information, that's all a manual needs. Doesn't need to be Ultima IV cloth map with 3 books of stories and stuff, just 10 bloody pages with a screen shot of each screen and some information.

Sick of figuring this shit out as I go along.

Devs are fucking lazy.

Yeah, not even an electronic manual for the download version. In order to get most of the information I needed to start playing I had to go to the internet and look around for information, which was complicated by the fact that the newer Prepare to Die Edition included a number of fixes and changes.

I'd say that the lack of a proper manual is one complaint I have with the majority of games these days that try to be different from the AAA industry. The AAA industry doesn't need manuals: they rehash the same gameplay so much the HALO 1 manual pretty much described HALO 2 and HALO 3, just those games had slightly different button configurations. The same pretty much went for Call of Duty Modern Warfare and its sequels.

 

[Dethenger]

Spoiler: Snip

I've said all this exhaustively before, so I'll be brief, maybe.

There are already systems in the game to help the player. The Orange Soapstone, summons (player or NPC) which are plentiful, and many players equip above their level to help new players, the ability to play online, offline, in human or hollow form basically throws out any notion that invaders are a problem, not to mention the Black Seperation Crystal, upgrading weapons is an easy way to become powerful fast, the Drake Sword is an easy first weapon if you need it, the game supplies Gold Pine Resin and Black Firebombs early in the game and most people's first boss after the Asylum (the Taurus Demon) has a blatant plunging attack opportunity, etc.

Secondly, the game's difficulty is inherent in everything it does, and is there for a reason. An easy mode which only reduces the difficulty of combat in PvE would not be ideal because nothing else is presented on a platter and it would make for a short and boring game. With no real story, the bulk of the lore is obtained from item descriptions and conjecture. It would also take away the immense satisfaction (which, by the way, is enough reason to leave the game unchanged by itself) that comes from defeating a boss. In short, the game is designed with thorough, intuitive players in mind, and to cater to those who aren't willing to put in the effort in one aspect would just make the game confusing. The only thing I can see coming from an easy mode is an all-around making the game more straightforward. Which is basically what we've seen happen in most other series' and it almost goes without saying, that would be a bad thing for fans of the first two games.

Lastly, the lessons and message of Dark Souls require a challenging and inspired game. It aims to force the player to use their intuition and try different things, to pay attention to NPCs, to try and make sense of what is happening. If you don't want that experience then you shouldn't be playing Dark Souls.

There's no elitism about it. There is just those who put in the time and effort and those who would rather see the product cater to them than the other way around. I'm not better than another person because I play Dark Souls. But nor are they entitled to play Dark Souls at my expense. And quite frankly if you can't get through the game with the plentiful co-op summons, excellent, helpful, knowledgable community, so much of the playerbase willing to give their time to help YOU, then play another game.

May this be the last we see of the topic, please.

Basically this, with the exception that I don't care if this is the last we see of this topic. I never understood why people even bother saying, "Oh look, this thread again." I quite enjoy the discussion, and honestly I've only rarely seen these devolve into elitism vs entitlement threads.

My two cents, as an extension to the final point offered in that rant:

If you want to experience the original Halo trilogy but can't beat it on Legendary, there is nothing wrong with dropping down to Heroic, Normal, or even Easy. You can largely experience the same thing, just with less frustration. For a game like Halo, that works, because it was ultimately designed with the intention that everyone who plays it, clears it.
Dark Souls is not the same. It offers an altogether different experience, an inherently exclusive one. It was designed to give players a significant challenge to overcome. The bulk of Dark Souls' experience, its appeal, really, what makes it a great game, is the fact that it provides an obstacle that, cleared, would satisfy Keith Richards. Making it through the Catacombs, beating Ornstein and Smough, even just finding a shortcut, these are all meaningful experiences in Dark Souls. Without that, the game is an altogether different experience. You don't get to drop the difficulty level in order to get the same experience as everyone else, it's not like that. This isn't an RPG that happens to be really hard: The goal of the game is to be hard.

It'd be like if I said "Hey, you know, I want to play through Amnesia, but it keeps scaring the piss outta me! You should make an optional mode where everything is adequately lit and the ambient noise isn't so eerie. That way, everyone can play through Amnesia!"
It's missing the point. If there was a mode like that in Amnesia, people playing it would put down their controller and go, "I don't see why everyone likes this game so much."

 

[The White Hunter]

Personally I think they should make it harder. Only 1 HP, start the game naked, and if you die the game bricks your machine.

This would appeal to a small niche audience who are tired of not being catered to. Anyone who wants an easier game can play one of the many other options out there.

#totallynotelitist

That sound way too softcore, it should come with a mandatory USB device to attach to your machine that blows up your house when you die and kill you in real life for daring to make a mistake.

OT: Spicy pony bacon please.

 

[Tallim]

I am curious in regards to an easy mode as to where exactly you would stop. You add in an easy option and some number of people can now play the game at their own level, however the experience is now within the grasp of another group of people for whom 'easy' isn't quite easy enough.

So what happens? Add in another easier mode and repeat the cycle again until eventually the game in question is impossible to fail? Taken to the logical extreme it would completely dilute the experience. May as well just play Progress Quest

 

[JagermanXcell]

Oh god this again....

I'm out....

Done....

Not doing this....

Gonna go play Dark Souls.... Good idea!

 

[Eddy-16]

Elder Scrolls Oblivion being one, doesn't have shit for a manual.

0_o did you buy a pre-owned copy that didn't have a manual or a copy of steam or something? Oblivion's manual is like 50 pages thick (47 pages checked as I was typing)

http://cdn.bethsoft.com/bethsoft.com/manuals/obliv_goty_x360_manual-EN-v1.pdf

OT: My argument is basically Jim's, if you haven't seen it go watch it.

 

[Master_Fubar23]

I love how every time someone tries to say they don't want dark souls to have an easy mode they have to say they aren't an elitist. Well, too bad! You are and elitist and all elitist are pricks. I personally bought a PS3 for demons souls. I pass every game I can on the hardest difficulty and do my best to get the hardest achievements like the one for completing Vanquishes challenges. So when I heard Demons souls was super hard and not in that bullet hell hard way I jumped on it. However, it?s not hard at all and if fact it?s really easy once you get to know the game. Same thing applies with Dark Souls. Oh, and before I go any further there WAS an easy mode on Demons Souls. All you had to do was get the world tendency to white and all enemies hit softer and had less hp which to me sounds like an easy mode which this could be implemented in dark souls 2. They can have the player choose if they want to start a normal game which is left as if would be or an easy game which the world is like white world tendency in Demons Souls and they could have it play out as demons souls where doing certain things ups the ante. Now back on topic. The two games are easy once you learn the game like monster hunter but easier. With this is mind I know my skills are vastly superior to my wife?s but there shouldn?t a starting level of difficulty she can?t pass, like how she can't beat the Asylum Demon. I don?t have an ego that needs to be inflated or have to compensate for a small member by knowing that other people can?t possibly beat a game that I?m playing. So that is why I say there should be an easy and why all elitists are pricks? putting their selfish need to be better than some people is appalling.
Also to address the op. You talk about figuring stuff out and doing things like parrying, etc. So tell me, what does an easy option that YOU aren?t going to play have anything to do with SOMEONE ELSE who you will never know or meet have to do with your gameplay or your need to not have an easy mode? Oh, right? nothing because someone else being on easy mode doesn?t affect your parrying skills or your ability to figure out things in game.
P.S. Anyone here who is having a hard time in demons or dark souls needs to look up EpicNameBro and Vageta311. Both are skilled players while ENB does some Lore vids which are nice even if I don?t agree with his no easy mode stance.

 

[lacktheknack]

It comes down to this:

Is it selling adequately as is?

IF YES: No.

IF NO: Yes.

 

[lacktheknack]

What's up with the 30 million difficulty threads today. Can't say I understand the fuss. All you have to do is not select easy mode. There problem solved, you can thank me now.

Sadly, some people need the Developers to treat them like children and say "No, no you don't even have the option to have an Easy mode!" because if they aren't being parented, then they will just go wander off and pick the Easy mode because they can't be bothered not to pick it. Basically, they like to shit on their own good time by denying themselves the experience they want because they can't resist an easy mode like most of the world can't resist bacon.

That's an absolutely terrible reason, and you know it. Of all the somewhat valid reasons you could have picked (online interactions, retooling the levels, etc), you picked that one.

Please tell me you're trying to be satirical.

EDIT: Definitely trying to be satirical. Sorry for bothering you.

 

[teebeeohh]

this is one of those topics where i feel both sides act like they talk about the same thing but really don't, if the easy mode is just making the PC tougher and the NPCs weaker it doesn't most of the issues newcomers have with it, all the enemies that can one-hit you would still be able to unless their damage would be reduced by an absurd amount, you still be easily killed by being stunlocked by some enemies and you would still fall to your death, to solve those issues they would need to invest a lot more time and money to change mechanics/level design and that would mean less money/people to work on the normal game.

and i don't really care, at some point i always stop playing dark souls because the grind bores me and i know that when i stop and come back to the game later i will suck very hard at it and thus will have no fun getting back into it and start a new character who i will get stuck with a little later. so if i keep playing the game on and off for about 5-10 years i may finish it.

 

[Patrick Buck]

I don't really think it should be changed to offer an easy mode, but I don't have a problem if they did.
If they changed the whole game however, to make it easier for all, even those who didn't want it, then that is bad.

 

[Headdrivehardscrew]

Also to address the op. You talk about figuring stuff out and doing things like parrying, etc. So tell me, what does an easy option that YOU aren?t going to play have anything to do with SOMEONE ELSE who you will never know or meet have to do with your gameplay or your need to not have an easy mode? Oh, right? nothing because someone else being on easy mode doesn?t affect your parrying skills or your ability to figure out things in game.
P.S. Anyone here who is having a hard time in demons or dark souls needs to look up EpicNameBro and Vageta311. Both are skilled players while ENB does some Lore vids which are nice even if I don?t agree with his no easy mode stance.

O Hai.

If it's just a single player thing, I think it might take up too much time and attention in development. It's not a 'dumbing down' of the game, it's more something like... trying to balance a game in at least one more way than the 'real' one. Besides, if 'easy mode' is all you're after, you could go for a white world tendency in Demon's and go for the Way of the White in Dark Souls. Hey presto - easier everything. For free. It's already there. In both games. Would you, instead of going for these options in-game and in-character, prefer to just be able to select 'easy' at the title screen?

Do you play, say, any sort of competitive fighting game? One where each player can lower their damage output/hit points/whatever? If you're a good player, and know what you're doing, you can artificially weaken your character, so your opponent (little sister, kid brother, grandma, dog) stands a real chance and you will have to fight to stay alive.

I think that is a legit way to soften up something or introduce a means of balancing an individual bout on-the-fly.

However, a game that, however hidden, obscure or strange builds on online multiplayer does not offer the option to even things out like that. And, as has already been said many times before - in the end, you cheat yourself out of a proper gameplay experience by making it easier and more simple. Dark Souls thrives on making us want to overcome obstacles, figuring things out, experiencing that gut-deep cringe and horror when an eight-foot-tall silver or black knight first surprises us and comes at us all shiny, all deadly, all pretty pissed off and intent on killing us. If I do not have to fear death, what worth is life to me, then?

Say, if I would happen to have my lvl 120 'normal/hard/vanilla/genuine/original' character in the works when you come along with your 'easy banana' lvl 120 that took you half the time to level up, deals twice the amount of damage no matter how you specced it and takes half the damage no matter how you specced it - how would you make this 'fair' or 'fun'?

I believe I do get why a lot of people seem to believe they want an easy mode, no questions asked. But, in the very specific case of Dark Souls, I've been all googly eyes and all ears for at least a year now, and I still haven't gotten any proper answer that seems credible, legit and real enough to make it work instead of messing something truly beautiful up.

How would you handle the multiplayer, as in pvp, bits of Dark Souls? And no, exploiting and smurfing is not todays subject of choice. Yes, I know there are many folks that abused every possible thing that gave them an edge, but I can tell you that encountering an honourable opponent that does not lag on purpose or otherwise try to manipulate the outcome of a proper one-on-one (2vs2, 3vs3) is a great thing to behold, witness and take part in. Because everyone had to put many hours of practice into their character by the time they got all that shiny armour, all those fancy weapons and all that very specific knowledge of their weapon(s) of choice. Why destroy the beauty and perfection of it all?

I agree with your recommendation for EpicNameBro. I find him to be very enjoyable, and it's obvious that Bro's got the flow. I myself don't like the Iaito that much, but I understand why it's his weapon of choice. I wouldn't have understood that bit before the, hmmmm... 100 hour mark of my trip into the wonderful world of Dark Souls, though.

 

[AVATAR_RAGE]

Yes all what an easy mode would do would be make enemies easier to kill, which would bring more people into the game. Making the game accessible for new players is not a bad thing.

 

[DeltaEdge]

What's up with the 30 million difficulty threads today. Can't say I understand the fuss. All you have to do is not select easy mode. There problem solved, you can thank me now.

Sadly, some people need the Developers to treat them like children and say "No, no you don't even have the option to have an Easy mode!" because if they aren't being parented, then they will just go wander off and pick the Easy mode because they can't be bothered not to pick it. Basically, they like to shit on their own good time by denying themselves the experience they want because they can't resist an easy mode like most of the world can't resist bacon.

That's an absolutely terrible reason, and you know it. Of all the somewhat valid reasons you could have picked (online interactions, retooling the levels, etc), you picked that one.

Please tell me you're trying to be satirical.

EDIT: Definitely trying to be satirical. Sorry for bothering you.

I know it's a terrible reason, but I have heard from a surprising amount of people that their rationale for not wanting an easy mode is just that. They would choose it if they had the option, and then go on to complain about how the game isn't challenging later. I wish I were making it up, but I am not, but I think it's absolutely ridiculous.
But you're right, there are much better arguments to discuss, this one has just been bothering me immensely, so I had to say it.

 

[Coffeejack]

It would seem like a pointless use of the creators' time, now that almost everyone and his dog knows that Dark Souls is a difficult game. It has even be clearly advertised on Steam as "The most difficult game you'll play all year". People should know what they're getting into by now, so I'd say all a game like that needs is a short, clear and skippable tutorial teaching you the basics. If it already has that, no difficulty changes need be made.

 

[lacktheknack]

What's up with the 30 million difficulty threads today. Can't say I understand the fuss. All you have to do is not select easy mode. There problem solved, you can thank me now.

Sadly, some people need the Developers to treat them like children and say "No, no you don't even have the option to have an Easy mode!" because if they aren't being parented, then they will just go wander off and pick the Easy mode because they can't be bothered not to pick it. Basically, they like to shit on their own good time by denying themselves the experience they want because they can't resist an easy mode like most of the world can't resist bacon.

That's an absolutely terrible reason, and you know it. Of all the somewhat valid reasons you could have picked (online interactions, retooling the levels, etc), you picked that one.

Please tell me you're trying to be satirical.

EDIT: Definitely trying to be satirical. Sorry for bothering you.

I know it's a terrible reason, but I have heard from a surprising amount of people that their rationale for not wanting an easy mode is just that. They would choose it if they had the option, and then go on to complain about how the game isn't challenging later. I wish I were making it up, but I am not, but I think it's absolutely ridiculous.

http://data.whicdn.com/images/34546461/funny-gif-man-jump-out-the-window_large.gif

This is why we cannot have nice things. Please slap them the next time you see them.

 

[Vegosiux]

However, a game that, however hidden, obscure or strange builds on online multiplayer does not offer the option to even things out like that. And, as has already been said many times before - in the end, you cheat yourself out of a proper gameplay experience by making it easier and more simple. Dark Souls thrives on making us want to overcome obstacles, figuring things out, experiencing that gut-deep cringe and horror when an eight-foot-tall silver or black knight first surprises us and comes at us all shiny, all deadly, all pretty pissed off and intent on killing us. If I do not have to fear death, what worth is life to me, then?

To use one of my favorite webcomic quotes; "You are not the voice of the people, you just happen to be loud."

Plus, separate servers for separate modes would even things out adequately, I think.

Say, if I would happen to have my lvl 120 'normal/hard/vanilla/genuine/original' character in the works when you come along with your 'easy banana' lvl 120 that took you half the time to level up, deals twice the amount of damage no matter how you specced it and takes half the damage no matter how you specced it - how would you make this 'fair' or 'fun'?

Hence separate servers.

I believe I do get why a lot of people seem to believe they want an easy mode, no questions asked. But, in the very specific case of Dark Souls, I've been all googly eyes and all ears for at least a year now, and I still haven't gotten any proper answer that seems credible, legit and real enough to make it work instead of messing something truly beautiful up.

Well in all honesty, DS isn't even that "hard". Or "truly beautiful". I hate to be "that guy", but my main complaint with what I played of it was not difficulty, but merely that it felt boring and bland. To use the first paragraph I quoted, no it did not manage to draw me in and make me "want to overcome" and all that romanticized mumbo jumbo.

I'll be giving it another chance sometime in the future, because I promised that to someone, though.

How would you handle the multiplayer, as in pvp, bits of Dark Souls? And no, exploiting and smurfing is not todays subject of choice. Yes, I know there are many folks that abused every possible thing that gave them an edge, but I can tell you that encountering an honourable opponent that does not lag on purpose or otherwise try to manipulate the outcome of a proper one-on-one (2vs2, 3vs3) is a great thing to behold, witness and take part in. Because everyone had to put many hours of practice into their character by the time they got all that shiny armour, all those fancy weapons and all that very specific knowledge of their weapon(s) of choice. Why destroy the beauty and perfection of it all?

"Honorable opponent"? Or do you mean "an opponent that fights on my terms"? One man's "cheapness" is another man's "tactical decision". Again, more romanticized mumbo jumbo.

If the strengths of my player character lie in deception, stealth and finesse, that's what you can expect if we happen to run into a scuffle. I will not engage in an "honorable duel", I will stab you in the back. Then run. Then lie in wait. Then ambush you. Then throw dust in your eyes and stab you in the back again.

And trying to guilt trip me into dropping the strengths of my character because that would let you gain the upper hand before the fight even starts is not at all "honorable". It's "cheap". Think about it.

 

[Detroit]

There's a forest, but some people are just too occupied with a few trees.