That's perfectly fine. The problem is that I'm fairly certain there is a select group of fans who are jerking off to the idea that Dark Souls is hard.chikusho said:
Poll: Dark Souls: Time to Put Up or Shut Up.
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you know, i'm not opposed to easy modes in most games - just not dark/demon's souls.
why? because its a psuedo-MMO, a point that seems to be glossed over or ignored. you can play offline of course, but when you load up a game, it only is an option when you aren't logged in already - clearly implying you are meant to play online. invasions, co-op, messages are all there with purpose, planning and intentions on what it would be like to play with those intact and functional. having an easy mode makes implementing balance that much more difficult, since the devs are already balancing gear and stats between PvE and PvP.
in fact, dark souls already has an easy mode. it's called co-op. it has a hard mode too, its called NG+(++++...).
and if a player can't get out of the asylum, then they need to spend some time practicing until they can... it will only get harder. there is no "i win" button. only practice. practice to learn your moves. practice to learn the enemies' moves and figuring out when it is safe to attack. and if you haven't practiced it enough or get impatient, you die, only to respawn to try again. it's even in the subtitle "prepare to die."
if a player can't deal with the repeated deaths and slogging through, then dark souls isn't for them. that's why i, and so many others here, don't want an easy mode.
why? because its a psuedo-MMO, a point that seems to be glossed over or ignored. you can play offline of course, but when you load up a game, it only is an option when you aren't logged in already - clearly implying you are meant to play online. invasions, co-op, messages are all there with purpose, planning and intentions on what it would be like to play with those intact and functional. having an easy mode makes implementing balance that much more difficult, since the devs are already balancing gear and stats between PvE and PvP.
in fact, dark souls already has an easy mode. it's called co-op. it has a hard mode too, its called NG+(++++...).
and if a player can't get out of the asylum, then they need to spend some time practicing until they can... it will only get harder. there is no "i win" button. only practice. practice to learn your moves. practice to learn the enemies' moves and figuring out when it is safe to attack. and if you haven't practiced it enough or get impatient, you die, only to respawn to try again. it's even in the subtitle "prepare to die."
if a player can't deal with the repeated deaths and slogging through, then dark souls isn't for them. that's why i, and so many others here, don't want an easy mode.
Why not make an easier mode to help bring more fans to the series. I'm pretty sure the game's difficulty isn't its ONLY draw. And yes your argument does descend into elitism. I'm sure once people play an easy mode they will switch to the normal game because people like to challenge themselves.
Also, I think an easy mode in Dark Souls would be the same difficulty as a normal mode in another game. Its no big deal, play the game how you want, why don't you force others to pick the same class and make the same choices while you're at it
Also, I think an easy mode in Dark Souls would be the same difficulty as a normal mode in another game. Its no big deal, play the game how you want, why don't you force others to pick the same class and make the same choices while you're at it
Well there is the thing. I won't buy it specifically because the game keeps getting sold on being so hard. For all the appealing talk about cool enemies, visuals, story etc, I don't want to have to put up with the frustration of constantly dying. You could say "tough shit, heat; kitchen", but that means I'm missing out, and indeed, the devs are missing out on my wallet too.krazykidd said:
And you think the devs didn't know that when making THEIR GAME ? Right? Your missing out , because the devs made a game that wasn't for you . That's your fault not the devs . The devs didn't choose what your taste ( or tolerence ) for games are .maninahat said:
You sure do like to quote yourself as if it were the final word in any discussion. I half imagine you have a book of s69-5 quotes you carry around, and bust out at dinner parties and during solemn interludes. And thus spaketh s69-5, and it was so.s69-5 said:
However, let's see.
We have you using the terms "dumbed down", "streamlining for the masses", "entitled", "tantrum" and "silly" to describe your opponents positions. Your general reasoning is quite salient, but you can never really resist getting in a little dig, throwing out a pissy little remark to make it clear how little you think of the people who disagree with you. Much as you did when you had your fit about green eyed monsters bending things to their wills. And then you are surprised and outraged when people respond to you with "elitist".
I don't really understand where this moral indignation comes from. You have demonstrated time and time again by quoting yourself that cheery little insults are fair game when discussing this issue, and then recoil in apoplectic fury when someone suggests you might be an elitist.
The best part about all this is that you and I are probably INCHES apart in our opinions on Dark Souls. I don't really think it needs changing either, I'm just a little less ARDENTLY opposed to the POSSIBILITY of something like that being introduced. My perspective is "It could work, it could not work, kind of depends on FROM". Thanks to opinion polarization and forum etiquette that demands every reply be a struggle to the death, we are apparently now mortal foes. Fantastic!
I have taken issue with arguments that say "Oh it couldn't ever POSSIBLY work" because people can't really know that.
I have taken issue with posters who have attempted to characterize anyone asking for it as lazy, jealous, stupid, or whiny.
I have taken issue with posters who have said crazy elitist things like "The main enemy in easy mode should be a kitten lol!" and then insisted they're not elitist, because that's just silly. I think people should own their shit.
Have I always been super polite about it? No. Have I occasionally been a condescending bellend? Yep.
My apologies if that ruffles your feathers. If I see a guy laying out left and right with insults, I anticipate said individual will have a reasonably thick skin when it comes to rebuttals. I acknowledge that this is clearly not always the case. I don't think I've been a fraction as monstrous as you are trying to paint me, but hey...I'm biased.
Of course difficulty is my personal taste, but that's the point; most games provide for a variety of tastes when it comes to difficulty, because they are smart enough to realise that not everyone plays to the same skill level, and not everyone will buy a game that won't accommodate less skilled players. Deliberately neglecting this standard industry practise is kind of unusual in this day and age, and as one of those less skilled players, I'd say it was a bad choice on the part of the Dark Souls devs. Even they expressed disappointment that a sizeable portion of their potential audience won't buy the game because it's too punishing. Basically - it is still their fault for choosing not to cater to that audience.krazykidd said:
The inverse of that argument is that by cultivating this reputation of "you must be at least this skilled to ride", Dark Souls gained a certain panache it would not otherwise have enjoyed.maninahat said:
It's a cogent point. Without visiting alternate dimensions, we can't really know whether a more accessible Dark Souls would have been more or less popular. It could have been a smash hit, or it could have been another also-ran drubbed for its non-story and somewhat clunky mechanics.
I guess that's true to an extent - but people tend to praise the game for other factors beyond its difficulty, and I imagine after this amount of time, it is fairly safe to put in an easy mode without hurting that established legacy.BloatedGuppy said:
Your post frustrates me because I really cannot understand for the life of me how insulting people as a group gives you the moral high ground over bloatedguppy. Yes your insults were not specifically targeting him, but that hardly means that your vitrol can be held to some higher standard. Unless there is some moral code that completely escapes me, in which case I apologize.s69-5 said:
OT: Eh. Dark Souls II could have an easy mode if they just tweaked some numbers and made it so they couldn't get online with that character. That way no "skilled" gamer could blitz through it to get the excellent gear then abuse the hell out of PvP and the people who the mode would be intended for wouldn't get destroyed by some guy who knows the game inside and out. Everybody wins, except I guess the people for whom the existence of an easy mode is aberration against all things good in the game. But whatever, I'm starting to get the feeling that I just don't belong in their treehouse.
*Groan* Sure, I'll bite. Seems to me that you're missing that the core element of Dark Souls that binds everything together is the difficulty. I highly doubt that people would have enjoyed Dark Souls if it was easier. We would have also dismissed it as a mediocre RPG with some interesting enemy designs if not for the difficulty that made us feel the experience that the game was offering to us.Master_Fubar23 said:
You can't just give Dark Souls an "Easy Mode" and call it good. This is so naïve... I'm sorry, it just is. For those that are not interested in Dark Souls because it is 'too hard or improperly so' or think the community is 'elitist'... well, some advice -- Move on I'm sure you can find another game out there.
I don't even like Dark Souls that much, but I love, I mean absolutely adore having it there when I'm in the mood for something like that. NOTHING ELSE LIKE IT EXISTS.
People keep saying, "Well do what New Vegas did and give it an optional Hardcore Mode." All I can say to this is --- wut
New Vegas Hardcore mode was only hardcore in name only. It was clearly an unrealized concept that they tacked in on the finished product instead of building it from scratch. Okay game is done, make it so you have to eat it a little food & water from now on... -- HARDCORE MODE --
Tacking on an Easy Mode to Dark Souls would require building the game up from scratch as Easy. "Regular/Hard Mode" would end up being just "tougher enemies", and that is not at all what is difficult about games like Dark Souls. Conceptually, games like Dark Souls are punishing the first concept until the finished product. Making for an easy mode would drastically interfere with that... and for what, so people that are not even interested in the game and say everyone that plays it is an elitist twat can... play it.. for 5 minutes and move on to something else. Yea, no.
---
Seriously folks, it is one game. One game. If you do not like it, or you disagree with some of it's design choices then you may simply choose from any of the other thousands of other games more suited to your style of play. It's not rocket science, it's not shameful, it doesn't mean the game sucks or that the community is elitist.. it just means the game is not for you.
I don't even like Dark Souls that much, but I love, I mean absolutely adore having it there when I'm in the mood for something like that. NOTHING ELSE LIKE IT EXISTS.
People keep saying, "Well do what New Vegas did and give it an optional Hardcore Mode." All I can say to this is --- wut
New Vegas Hardcore mode was only hardcore in name only. It was clearly an unrealized concept that they tacked in on the finished product instead of building it from scratch. Okay game is done, make it so you have to eat it a little food & water from now on... -- HARDCORE MODE --
Tacking on an Easy Mode to Dark Souls would require building the game up from scratch as Easy. "Regular/Hard Mode" would end up being just "tougher enemies", and that is not at all what is difficult about games like Dark Souls. Conceptually, games like Dark Souls are punishing the first concept until the finished product. Making for an easy mode would drastically interfere with that... and for what, so people that are not even interested in the game and say everyone that plays it is an elitist twat can... play it.. for 5 minutes and move on to something else. Yea, no.
---
Seriously folks, it is one game. One game. If you do not like it, or you disagree with some of it's design choices then you may simply choose from any of the other thousands of other games more suited to your style of play. It's not rocket science, it's not shameful, it doesn't mean the game sucks or that the community is elitist.. it just means the game is not for you.
Why the hell would it require them to start with easy and then scale it up instead of the other way around? I'm pretty sure most game are balanced for the intended difficulty first.nexus said:
All of this reminds me of the core problem with the MMO playerbase. During player surges, everyone typically complains that everything is too easy, or that the "upper tier" rewards are too difficult to obtain, and everything is simply unreasonable or unfair.
So the devs spend a few months making changes. Everything becomes easier, you can solo nearly everything, and "upper tier" loot doesn't really exist anymore... everyone gets tokens instead and the tokens give everyone the same rewards..
But where did the players go? Oh, that's right.. those people that complain, they don't really care about the game. They left. They went to complain about a different game, and another.. and another.. and oh yea, now they're not on an MMO phase anymore so don't bother.
Why can't we get anymore players for our MMO, even after discounts and expansions? Oh, because the game isn't challenging anymore, it is boring. Tough luck, that.
So the devs spend a few months making changes. Everything becomes easier, you can solo nearly everything, and "upper tier" loot doesn't really exist anymore... everyone gets tokens instead and the tokens give everyone the same rewards..
But where did the players go? Oh, that's right.. those people that complain, they don't really care about the game. They left. They went to complain about a different game, and another.. and another.. and oh yea, now they're not on an MMO phase anymore so don't bother.
Why can't we get anymore players for our MMO, even after discounts and expansions? Oh, because the game isn't challenging anymore, it is boring. Tough luck, that.
I haven't seen one game lately that hasn't designed the game for it's intended difficulty.. which is "Normal or Easy", then tack on "Hard or Insane", which simply means.. no design changes whatsoever, except the enemies shoot you for more damage. Not terribly exciting.DementedSheep said:
If you wanted to do it the way you suggested, then "Easy" mode would be barebones and completely boring, they would just start cutting out all the concepts that exist solely because it caters to the unforgiving nature of Dark Souls. Then you would just have a mediocre, bland RPG. I mean, I don't even see the point..
I find it very hard to sympathize with anyone that would piss all over an entire fanbase, calling them elitist (not saying you are, but in general) etc, and that the game is trash... but it needs an easy mode because they want to play it too? No I don't think so. Lets get with reality here please.
Looks like I never got the message that I was quoted. Huh.s69-5 said:
Easy Mode players don't have to play with the Normal Mode players. It could work the way normal invading does. Give the character a Normal or Easy flag. Normal players can't invade or be invaded by players flagged as Easy and vice versa. The two types of players cannot interact with each other on a physical level. And no, my damage modification wasn't limited to monsters or the environment. If you'll recall, I said leave the game entirely alone, the changes affect the player and only the player.
Annnnd yes, that's what the changes were in Dragon's Dogma's hard mode. The game itself wasn't much harder, you just had to pay more attention and watch yourself. They at least doubled stamina consumption, if not just a little bit more and it's much easier to wear yourself out and leave yourself wide open. Which is made an even more devastating event due to taking more damage. It's much easier to die. The point was to make combat more challenging in that you had to pay more attention and strategically think about how you're actually going to fight because if your basic strategy was to spam your abilities until the monster dies, you're gonna get punched in the face with stamina limitations real fast.
Making the game easier outside of combat with extra gold drops was exactly the point. Extra challenge during combat rewarded you with having to suffer through less tedium when dealing with out-of-combat situations like situating your equipment, more easily accessing Port Crystals and Ferry Stones to get around the map quicker. More challenge, less tedium. That was my real point with dropping the amount of souls you'd obtain in Dark Souls. The less challenge you face in actual combat, the more tedium you suffer outside of combat, situating levels, equipment, shop purchases.
Less work in one area = more work in another area. It's a necessary balance you need to maintain to keep the game from getting too easy or difficult.
Oh, and by the way:
"Honestly the only viable and acceptable option I've encountered is to leave the actual game alone, but offer a better tutorial (like the one in Demon's Souls)."
Because that totally doesn't sound puffed up at all. Lemme know when you're done dismissing me as wrong because you disagree with my reasoning.