Poll: Hip Hop

[De Ronneman]

If my kid wants to listen to Hip Hop(in the far, FAR future), it should do as it wants, but I will scratch it out of my will for not listening to metal instead

Joke, I had a hiphop period too, but more the oldskool hiphop, not the new gangsta thrash. That's stuff is what makes people hate rap, shooting, throwing around the B-word like comma's and random drug using references. No, can't listen to people singing how cool they are, no matter how they sing/rap it.

 

[Daffy F]

I'm not going to tell my kids what to listen to, but I REALLY hope they won't. At the very least: They WILL wear headphones in my house.

 

[1gremlyn1]

I wouldn't mind what music my future children would listen to, as long as they didn't annoy me with it.

 

[A random person]

These days I like my rap music as violent and misogynist as possible

Because of previous interactions I find the bolded part rather strange of you.

As an aside, I really like a lot of Nerdcore stuff. To me, that stuff is closer to the true spirit of hip-hop than just about anything else.

Agreed with the first part, not commenting on the second as I'm nowhere near qualified. Nerdcore is the odd case where I can actually enjoy rap lyrics, since they're (usually) about things I'm more familiar with as opposed to crap about cars, guns, and misogyny.

On topic, as you might have guessed I'm not very fond of gangsta rap. The kind I especially hate even for that is...well, you know the song at the beginning of chadwarden's video with the droning vocals? That's the kind of stuff I really hate with a passion, and don't get me started on crunk!

Gangsta rap and nerdcore aside, I'll admit to kinda liking Eminem. Granted, he may or may not qualify as gangsta (keep in mind I'm largely unqualified here), but if he is he doesn't annoy me nearly as much as others. Keep in mind I'm the kind of guy who tells wiggers they're not black.

 

[BonsaiK]

Hello music industry guy here again, addressing certain things:

It's obvious to me that MOST of you on this forum know nothing about Hip-Hop, Rap, or the differences between the 2.

Actually, if we're going to get technical about it rap refers to a style of vocal delivery known as "rapping". Hip-hop is a more broad term which encompasses the culture around rap music, including rap itself as well as DJing, beatboxing, breakdancing, certain types of fashion and graffiti art, etc, it's not strictly just a musical term.

I just have a problem with your comment about alternative rappers having shit beats.

What constitutes a good and bad beat to you?

Defining what exactly makes a good or a bad beat isn't easy, but I think the problem with "alternative rap" across the board is that it's not that they can't create a good beat, it's more they just try and be too damn fancy. Like a lead guitarist who plays 100 notes a bar when two would have done nicely. So much non-mainstream rap has tricky-dicky beats that just don't groove well and also have no interesting melodic or harmonic content. Rap is a rhythmic form because the vocals contain little melody compared to most styles, so for it to work the music has to take up the slack, either by being texturally dense with a lot of layers and things going on (think Public Enemy's 88-91 output), or by creating a very defined mood of some type (Mobb Deep's "Hell On Earth" album is the best example I've seen of this), or by using some very structured musical content (look at the enormous amount of rappers who sample classical music) or by just having an amazing rhythm and grooving so damn much that everything else can almost be ignored. Alternative rap typically ignores all of these things in a quest to be "different", and generally ends up with something that is often innovative and technically proficient but very rarely interesting to listen to. There are exceptions, of course.

These days I like my rap music as violent and misogynist as possible

Because of previous interactions I find the bolded part rather strange of you.

Despite endless cries of "keepin' it real", the fact is that rap is fantasy, not reality - even for the people making the music. The smart rappers go to films, TV, movies, and what their stupid friends do for inspiration. The dumb ones think they have to "keep it real" and do all the stupid shit themselves, quickly cutting short their careers with jail time. Meanwhile their smarter friends write songs detailing their hapless friends' misfortune in the first-person as if they were the ones who did it, and earn the stripes where they really matter - in the music world.

Rap is fantasy, and some people have misogynist fantasies, and rap is a good outlet for that. It's a much healthier outlet than taking those fantasies into the real world and trying to make them realities. I think fantasising about anything (and yes that means everything) is completely acceptable, as long as you don't bring harmful fantasties into the real world in ways that can hurt others. I think misogynist music is fine for the same reason that I think BDSM porn is fine. It's fantasy, and people of both sexes are actually really into that stuff anyway. Some people like to degrade others, and just as many people like to be degraded. When Ice-T stopped making "sex rhymes" he got thousands of letters from all over the world - all from women, saying "...but I liked the dirty sex rhymes!", so he started doing them again by popular demand.

Of course, when some 13-year old kid hears something on a rap record and takes it seriously, yes, that's a problem, but that's a problem with the kid and his upbringing, not the music itself. I heard 2 Live Crew when I was 10 years old and I thought it was hilarious, but I also knew that it was also all bullshit and wasn't dumb enough to think that people really did that stuff. Let's face it, if rappers really did all the things they claimed to do on their records, there would be no more rap music because they would all be dead from STDs or in jail, or their dicks would have dropped off or something.

 

[w@rew0lf]

I would but as long as they lived in MY house any rap they listen to better have some substance and not be any of this mindless drivel that dominates the current rap scene.

 

[Soxafloppin]

Im sorry but Dizzee Rascal's Bonkers is a tune.

I prefer more lyrics than this

Spoiler: shallow

I wake up everyday it's a daydream
Everythin' in my life ain't what it seems
I wake up just to go back to sleep
I act real shallow but I'm in too deep

And all I care about is sex and violence
A heavy bass line is my kind of silence
Everybody says that I gotta get a grip
But I let sanity give me the slip

Some people think I'm bonkers
But I just think I'm free
Man, I'm just livin' my life
There's nothin' crazy about me

Some people pay for thrills
But I get mine for free
Man, I'm just livin' my life
There's nothin' crazy about me

Bonkers

I wake up everyday it's a daydream
Everythin' in my life ain't what it seems
I wake up just to go back to sleep
I act real shallow but I'm in too deep

And all I care about is sex and violence
A heavy bass line is my kind of silence
Everybody says that I got to get a grip
But I let sanity give me the slip

Bonkers

Some people think I'm bonkers
But I just think I'm free
Man, I'm just livin' my life
There's nothin' crazy about me

Some people pay for thrills
But I get mine for free
Man, I'm just livin' my life
There's nothin' crazy about me

Mmm, yeah, I'm back in the floor now

I wake up everyday it's a daydream
Everythin' in my life ain't what it seems
I wake up just to go back to sleep
I act real shallow but I'm in too deep

And all I care about is sex and violence
A heavy bass line is my kind of silence
Everybody says that I got to get a grip
But I let sanity give me the slip

Bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon

Some people think I'm bonkers
But I just think I'm free
Man, I'm just livin' my life
There's nothin' crazy about me

Some people pay for thrills
But I get mine for free
Man, I'm just livin' my life
There's nothin' crazy about me

Bonkers

I wake up everyday it's a daydream
Everythin' in my life ain't what it seems
I wake up just to go back to sleep
I act real shallow but I'm in too deep

And all I care about is sex and violence
A heavy bass line is my kind of silence
Everybody says that I got to get a grip
But I let sanity give me the slip

Bonkers

Some people think I'm bonkers
But I just think I'm free
Man, I'm just livin' my life
There's nothin' crazy about me

Some people pay for thrills
But I get mine for free
Man, I'm just livin' my life
There's nothin' crazy about me

Mmm, yeah, I'm back in the floor now
Mmm, yeah, I'm back in the floor now
Mmm, yeah, I'm back in the floor now
Mmm, yeah, I'm back in the floor now

Yea, well i said 'Tune' not Lyrical Masterpiece..I like it because of the way it sounds in my ears.

 

[The Diabolical Biz]

Yes, although not modern 'Hip-Hop', but the older stuff when it was still good, and only when they would be old enough to appreciate it.

 

[SuperUberBob]

Love rap, tired of defending it

Spoiler

 

[Fellwarden]

I wouldn't "ban" hip hop, but if I ever get children they will be brought up on metal. Primarily melodic death metal such as Soilwork, Scar Symmetry and In Flames so they can feel the awesomeness that is metal. They'll also listen to death metal, some black metal as that is the main musical heritage of my country, and other kinds of metal. They will also listen to classical music so they can feel the awesomeness that is classical music, especially piano pieces and symphonies (because I love those). Of course they would be allowed to listen to anything they like, but I would make sure that their minds will be metalized before they learn to make such choices themselves, and when they can, they will know to choose metal and classical music out of the pure awesome they are. This will be further reinforced by my teaching them to play guitar, mainly metal riffs and a few nice acoustic pieces. I also want to learn to play the violin and the piano, and if I do, I'll teach them that as well.

 

[Byrn Stuff]

I think forbidding your child to listen to a given type of music is a bit ridiculous, and it's likely going to push them towards it anyway. I understand restricting them from a certain artist, track, or album, but an entire genre of music? Because of its connotations? Because of its media-perpetuated image?

I love hip hop. I love turntablism. I love the breakers and other dancers. I love beatboxing. I love emcees. I love clever wordplay and impeccable allusion. (Boomdeyada boomdeyada)

I hope my kids will love hip hop, but I also hope they'll enjoy a diverse array of music styles and genres not just what I like. There's a lot of utter shit that's a part of hip hop, and I'm sorry that those acts are acting as ambassadors for the culture, but it can be such a positive, delightful, creative force that I would hope that my kids give it a chance.

 

[sheogoraththemad]

I deferentially won't forbid them to listen.
I just don't like that new hiphop/R&B/POP crap. my friend says the same and he listens to hiphop all the time

 

[Ham_authority95]

I don't have a child and don't plan on having one.

But so long as its isn't that crappy top 40 hip hop, I don't really care.

 

[ProtoChimp]

I listen to everything, so I guess if I had a kid, I let him/her listen to all genres, and based on how much they enjoyed certain songs, play more of a specific genre(s).

Same here, I like everything even some pop, *hears angry mob in the distance* wait wait wait before you kill me I said some pop, SOME POP, not that lady gaga shit just some.
50 cent, tinchy stryder & well most rap/hip hop artists (if you can even call them artists) today have bastardised the genre. Jay Z & eminem are still cool though.

 

[Nemu]

Moot question for me, really. I hate kids & thus, won't be having any.


So I answered "No".

 

[Je Hones]

I just have a problem with your comment about alternative rappers having shit beats.

What constitutes a good and bad beat to you?

Defining what exactly makes a good or a bad beat isn't easy, but I think the problem with "alternative rap" across the board is that it's not that they can't create a good beat, it's more they just try and be too damn fancy. Like a lead guitarist who plays 100 notes a bar when two would have done nicely. So much non-mainstream rap has tricky-dicky beats that just don't groove well and also have no interesting melodic or harmonic content. Rap is a rhythmic form because the vocals contain little melody compared to most styles, so for it to work the music has to take up the slack, either by being texturally dense with a lot of layers and things going on (think Public Enemy's 88-91 output), or by creating a very defined mood of some type (Mobb Deep's "Hell On Earth" album is the best example I've seen of this), or by using some very structured musical content (look at the enormous amount of rappers who sample classical music) or by just having an amazing rhythm and grooving so damn much that everything else can almost be ignored. Alternative rap typically ignores all of these things in a quest to be "different", and generally ends up with something that is often innovative and technically proficient but very rarely interesting to listen to. There are exceptions, of course.

I think a lot of that is opinion/personal taste though. Some definitely do that, and it makes it unpleasant to listen to, but it's unfair to say that it is what characterises alternative rap. I think alternative rap is just where it can be found. As with most genres, the obscure shit thrives underground. Maybe my definition of alternative Rap differs from yours though. I'm not thinking about any avant-garde type Rap, but that's what I think you might be. Alternative Rap to me is just, generally speaking, Rap that doesn't promote Hip Hop's 4 contemporary elements- guns, bitches, bling, money. Mainstream or underground. Alternative Rap is a pretty vague term too, so there's bound to be a vast difference between some artists under that umbrella. As I say though, your definition of it might be more specific than mine. If you mean anything non-mainstream though, then I have to disagree when you say it's mostly like that.

Of course, when some 13-year old kid hears something on a rap record and takes it seriously, yes, that's a problem, but that's a problem with the kid and his upbringing, not the music itself. I heard 2 Live Crew when I was 10 years old and I thought it was hilarious, but I also knew that it was also all bullshit and wasn't dumb enough to think that people really did that stuff. Let's face it, if rappers really did all the things they claimed to do on their records, there would be no more rap music because they would all be dead from STDs or in jail, or their dicks would have dropped off or something.

^Yeah, that's true. You could argue that if you do get dealt shitty parents it sort of enables that behaviour, but that's like anything I guess. Ultimately, it does come down to the parenting, unless they're born with some unalterable condition. Like psychopathy.

Oh, and out of interest, could you expand on what you mean when you say you're a music industry guy? My guess is that you work for a label and, I dunno, trial the demos people send?

 

[BonsaiK]

Alternative Rap to me is just, generally speaking, Rap that doesn't promote Hip Hop's 4 contemporary elements- guns, bitches, bling, money. Mainstream or underground. Alternative Rap is a pretty vague term too, so there's bound to be a vast difference between some artists under that umbrella. As I say though, your definition of it might be more specific than mine. If you mean anything non-mainstream though, then I have to disagree when you say it's mostly like that.

Yes, we're talking about very different things. To me there's nothing even remotely "alternative" about rap that doesn't promote guns, money etc as the very first commercial rap hits didn't promote these things, and even to this day it's not that hard to find rap artists working in the mainstream for major labels who espouse a non-materialist worldview. I'm talking instead about a very specific sound and movement within rap music currently, probably best initially characterised by stuff on the Anticon label, but which also encompasses all sorts of other things besides that these days.

Oh, and out of interest, could you expand on what you mean when you say you're a music industry guy? My guess is that you work for a label and, I dunno, trial the demos people send?

You're partly correct, that is one of the many things I do. I don't want to go into any more detail than that, because it would make it very easy for certain people living in my city who might frequent this forum to identify me and I prefer to be anonymous on here.

 

[Je Hones]

Alternative Rap to me is just, generally speaking, Rap that doesn't promote Hip Hop's 4 contemporary elements- guns, bitches, bling, money. Mainstream or underground. Alternative Rap is a pretty vague term too, so there's bound to be a vast difference between some artists under that umbrella. As I say though, your definition of it might be more specific than mine. If you mean anything non-mainstream though, then I have to disagree when you say it's mostly like that.

Yes, we're talking about very different things. To me there's nothing even remotely "alternative" about rap that doesn't promote guns, money etc as the very first commercial rap hits didn't promote these things, and even to this day it's not that hard to find rap artists working in the mainstream for major labels who espouse a non-materialist worldview. I'm talking instead about a very specific sound and movement within rap music currently, probably best initially characterised by stuff on the Anticon label, but which also encompasses all sorts of other things besides that these days.

Allow me to first apologise for the wall of text to follow.

I call Rap alternative to make the distinction between people's preconceptions of Rap and what I like. It's a shame I have to do that because you're right, it never started that way. That's just what most people's uninitiated idea is about it now. Just look at this thread. The stereotype and metonymic image seems to be more powerful than the reality to people not associated with Rap. I feel like I have to clarify and set their perception right. 'Alternative' functions more as an adjective for me than a part of a genre classification.

Somebody new asks me what music I listen to, I say "mainly Rap and various sub-genres of Rock" Then it goes like this- "what, like 50 Cent?" "No." "Eminem?" "Not really." "TI?" "Nope." "THERE'S NOBODY LEFT!!!" Then I have to explain what I'm talking about. I don't want their ignorant perceptions and preconceptions about my music choice to affect their perception of what I am. Plus, I'm from the UK so most of the Rap that reaches mainstream ears here is the most famous and consequentially most guilty names. Most people won't know who Talib Kweli or Mos Def are, much less an ant colony of independent rappers that sound nothing like their mainstream counterparts. I'd actually go so far as to say that Jay Z is an offender, respected though he is. He isn't as guilty as some, but he does stand as the master ambassador for Rap on an international level and the forefront of his music - his lyrics - still sometimes talk about the inane shit people have come to expect from Rap. We know that lyrical content isn't all there is to Rap, but a lot of people don't.

This is the thing though, the crowd that aren't really into music, but hear something they like and buy it will buy Jay Z and probably buy whatever else is popular. It's all lyrically inane (often musically too) but nobody is persecuted for it in that crowd because they don't take music seriously. But that music and that style keeps getting made because it keeps getting bought. It is popular. Then those who do take music seriously, but are devoted to other genres have never delved into Rap but draw conclusions from what they're presented with on a mainstream level. Then they persecute the listeners because they perceive all Rap as like that, and all listeners as like that. Educated Rap listeners like him too and they usually have specific reasons for that. Reasons that are specific to Rap. Reasons that other genre's crowds don't value or don't notice- like flow and rhyme scheme. Only the demographic that buy it and image shine through to them, and that's where they draw their conclusions.

Big diversion there, but fuck it.

Anyway, my point is that to the non-initiated, Rap is a joke which then, due to their own ignorance, reflects on me for listening to it. If I did like the kind of Rap they think is a joke then I'd put them straight too, by explaining what I like about it and making it clear I'm an educated listener and not part of the unthinking masses. The thing is though, I agree with them. The image of Rap and those who promote it is a joke, so I want to distance myself from that.

Moving on.

I thought you might be thinking of Anticon actually. I like some of the music from them, mainly Sole (who I hear actually left the label last week), Tobacco and WHY?. I dig Buck65 too, but I acknowledge that what they all do is weird and doesn't follow the conventions you think makes a Rap track good. I can't draw a line between what I like for Rap and what I like for general musicianship. If I like the instrumental, stylistically Rap or not, and I find what they're rapping interesting, then I'm good.

I think I jumped on your post too quickly. It read it like it was written in a really definitive tone, as if you were just denouncing all alternative Rap, speaking about anything below the mainstream line and as if they all had factually shit beats rather than what you think of as shit beats. Everything's come down to personal preference though, on both sides. As you've said, you don't find the music you find at Anticon stimulating for whatever reason. I sometimes do. Some things you find boring I might not, and vice versa.

Oh, and out of interest, could you expand on what you mean when you say you're a music industry guy? My guess is that you work for a label and, I dunno, trial the demos people send?

You're partly correct, that is one of the many things I do. I don't want to go into any more detail than that, because it would make it very easy for certain people living in my city who might frequent this forum to identify me and I prefer to be anonymous on here.

Yeah, I thought you might. Fair enough.

 

[GodKlown]

I grew up on rap, first listened to it back around '85 when I was six years old. When I got into junior high around '92/'93, gangsta rap was really starting to take off, and that's pretty much where I stuck for my general music taste. I liked some of the other stuff, like Digital Underground and G-Funk, but I really started to lose taste in popular hip-hop stuff because it either boiled down to club music or drinking, neither of which I participate in.
Granted, some of it really isn't for kids under the age of fourteen. When I was six, you had groups like Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five talking about street life and the dangers of cocaine from a first-person perspective. Move about a decade up and it was drug dealers talking about making crack, pimpin' hos and slammin' Cadillac doors. Even OutKast made fun of that on their first album... the evolution of the genre has attempted to move farther away from political messages in the mainstream as it has tried to splinter off into nerdcore, murdercore, and that club crap. Anyone trying to make a name for themselves often guest appears on a dozen albums a year before trying to do a solo release, then even on their own project they appear maybe three times alone without requiring anyone else to do vocals on the tracks. I'm not quite sure who started this (although I know No Limit and Cash Money were pretty famous for these things because they could put out a good 6-10 albums a year this way by spreading everyone out on eachother's albums.
Solid solo artists are hard to come by these days. Even Eminem hasn't been the same since the Marshal Mathers LP, which was arguably his best work. He's been trying to create a few single hits on each album, which falls more under the umbrella of commercial rap instead of making a personal footprint in the genre. At the end of the day, it comes down to making money. Either through image or a hook that gets stuck in your head, they all want to do what they can to get your attention in the pursuit of getting your money. Shock value went out the window a long time ago, and has shifted down to murdercore (you can still find a LOT of artists under that genre on MySpace, such as Stillborn Rapists (worst name ever) and Necro) for people who really enjoy that sort of thing.
Things done changed a long time ago. There really isn't much of a classification as "rap" anymore in the contemporary field, it has all become more of hip-hop, which did get its' roots as a dance form of rap music like C&C Music Factory. They wanted to share more of the harder beats and the spoken word delivery, but without all the violence and drugs. But as artists came up in the clubs and saw how people responded to it, they gravitated towards having more of this danceable rap music on their albums, such as Lil' Jon and that turd Soulja Boy. I stepped away from all that crap a long time ago, and I really don't consider any of that in the same level as what rap used to be, which was using the music as a vehicle to inform people of a personal message about urban struggle or lifestyles. Now it's just more about drinking til you pass out, having a lot of sex, taking a lot of drugs, and making a lot of money and then throwing it all away on a good time. I don't understand why anyone really likes any of that crap they put out these days. I stopped buying new CDs nearly ten years ago because I didn't like spending $16 for one or two songs, so I've just been liberating it from P2P networks since '97. Modern hip-hop stinks, but if the kids like it, go for it.