Poll: Is 40K serious?

[Ilja Lyubimov]

I love 40k for a lot of stuff. For one, it's detailed as all hell. THen, it does not show humans as useless weak cowardly twats who are able to kill an average member of any other race only when formed in a platoon (ironically, in Warhammer with no k humans are classic fantasy slaughter tragedy material). Then, it also revamps fantasy into space without sacrificing any of the best elements of both. Then, it's somewhat realistic in that there is no good or evil, and the best you can get is "not completely dick". And its pathos is so much, you go for enjoying it.

So yeah, i like it and i take it as serious as you can get with something that is not real.

 

[marfoir(IRL)]

*huge 40k fan*

40k has a very serious/dark/deep/depressing backdrop.

40k is an extremely silly and over the top universe.

Both of these statements are true while being contrary to each other.
The 40k universe is huge, take what you like leave what you dont. Read
books written by authors who view the mythos in the same fashion as yourself,
avoid ones wriiten by matt ward,c.s. goto those who have a different view of the
universe.
Most importantly, take everything you read with a pinch of salt and edit it mentally to suit you.


I love 40k because it is serious and silly at the same time(and often in the same places), while it is such a huge universe you can easily ignore the bits you dont like.

 

[crazypsyko666]

There ARE some very serious concepts, factions and stories in there, but of course there are over the top, ridiculous things and a bit of comedy to relieve the tension. The Orks, Squats, Gretchins, and a few others are there to just be funny (while still dead scary).

Here's the real problem I see: The poster boys are always the boring ones. The Ultramarines are bland, faceless, emotionless and in a lot of ways seem brainless. They do everything by the books and demand everyone else do the same. Here's another option: The Black Templars are an existing chapter of Space Marines that are up to eight times regulation strength (potentially 8000 strong) on an endless crusade spread throughout the galaxy. They employ lightning fast storming tactics and better individual troops to smash through and break enemy lines. Sounds much more interesting than an army of bland Judge Dredds in power armor, right? (Not to badmouth Judge Dredd, my point is that he's by the book to a fault). Hell, Space Marines aren't even the most interesting things to see. They're inhuman. They have no relatable feelings to the human race anymore, if the fluff is to be believed. They are BEYOND human, but guard it with righteous fervor.

I have a proposition: Make a game about being an Imperial Guardsman. Make it a game about being a redshirt fighting against impossible odds, fighting battles no one is meant to survive, winning on the skin of our teeth against monsters larger than tanks with claws that could tear down fortresses. The Guardsmen who aren't totally brainwashed are colorful, alive, they have interesting backgrounds and histories. You could make characters out of Guardsmen. Space Marines are rough killing machines who are self sacrificing to the point where most of them wouldn't have anything relatable to say.

Another faction I'd want to play as is the Craftworld Eldar. There's an interesting duality between Eldar and Humans, some believe they are better than humans, some think they are similar enough to be trusted. Many believe Eldar to be the most potent beings in the galaxy, but they created their own demise by becoming TOO powerful. An RPG where you could play as an Eldar (in the style of Mass Effect's storytelling or something) could be a good premise for a game. Plenty of skill tree paths, career paths, and moral quandaries.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

I have a proposition: Make a game about being an Imperial Guardsman. Make it a game about being a redshirt fighting against impossible odds, fighting battles no one is meant to survive, winning on the skin of our teeth against monsters larger than tanks with claws that could tear down fortresses. The Guardsmen who aren't totally brainwashed are colorful, alive, they have interesting backgrounds and histories. You could make characters out of Guardsmen. Space Marines are rough killing machines who are self sacrificing to the point where most of them wouldn't have anything relatable to say.

So...a Gaunt's Ghosts game?

Yes, I wholeheartedly support that idea.

 

[Particulate]

You need to sit down and read the background material. I recommend starting with Horus Heresy: Collected Visions.

The thing with 40k that some people have trouble getting around is that it's actually a parody of itself. It claims to be Grim and Dark and horrific but in truth it does nothing short of glorifying every aspect of war ever conceived by man. Some have issue with this but once you start dissected the background material and factions there's a group for almost everyone. Do you lust for the GLORY of the grand charge and lightning assault? SPACE MARINES. Do you love WW2 movies and occasionally stuff like Black Hawk Down? IMPERIAL GUARD. Do you secretly want militaries to start using giant robots? TAU. Or are your tastes more refined and artistic? ELDAR. Or do you just want to fucking stab someone? Orks.

It's not about REALISM or Accurate portrayal of anything. It glamorizes and emphasizes everything mankind has ever aspired to or feared on the field of battle. Nothing more.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Doesn't sound terribly interesting, does it? Needs are met, but it all exists to keep the wars going. And if our unfortunate scribe above happened to die on his way to work the next day, no one would mourn him. He'd be immediately replaced, and the big machine would keep on turning.

Sorry, can't agreee with that suggestion. It's your WH40k and if you're happy with it then by all means, have fun.

As for me, i can't accept this vision. It may be ok for some mad country hidden behind steel curtain, but not for 40 000 years old empire spanning over distances measured in thousands of lightyears. Half of that Imperium shouldn't neither know about some "crusade" taking place God-Emperor knows where, nor really care. "Really... Orks ? Living, animated corpses ? There are no such things. It's superstition".

You are aware that the Imperium is actually LOSING the larger fight right? It's constantly losing planets to the various forces against it, be it Chaos corruption, Ork Waaaghs!!!, Nid absorption, Necron extermination, or even from the Imperium's own hands via Exterminatus.

You are also aware that most of it's core worlds ARE completely unaware of pretty much EVERYTHING trying to destroy it? Most worlds DON'T believe in the Orks or Chaos or even know that such things even exist. It's a big reason as to WHY they are losing!

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

I find the whole ordeal of good versus evil extremely ridiculous. The fact that it's set 38k years into the future makes it even more ridiculous.

Doesn't mean it can't be fun though.

WAY TO GO! YOU MISSED ONE OF THE POINTS OF THIS SERIES ENTIRELY! Seriously, it's not good or evil in this setting. Every single faction in this game has done more atrocious things before breakfast than in the entirety of human history up to this point. No side here is good. The closest you can get is "Not QUITE as bad as the other guys vs The other guys".

 

[crazypsyko666]

I have a proposition: Make a game about being an Imperial Guardsman. Make it a game about being a redshirt fighting against impossible odds, fighting battles no one is meant to survive, winning on the skin of our teeth against monsters larger than tanks with claws that could tear down fortresses. The Guardsmen who aren't totally brainwashed are colorful, alive, they have interesting backgrounds and histories. You could make characters out of Guardsmen. Space Marines are rough killing machines who are self sacrificing to the point where most of them wouldn't have anything relatable to say.

So...a Gaunt's Ghosts game?

Yes, I wholeheartedly support that idea.

I'd play a game as "Ciaphas Cain! Patron Saint of Sarcasm and Luck!"

Oh yeah, Gaunt's Ghosts was cool too, I guess... (Who am I kidding, OF COURSE I'D WANT A GAUNT'S GHOSTS GAME). One guy from Tanith's First and Only has more character than every Sphess Mehrien combined.

 

[zehydra]

no, but that doesn't mean it's not fun.

I don't know though, i don't play it.

 

[Clive Howlitzer]

That video was hilarious. That makes this whole thread worthwhile.

 

[crazypsyko666]

Doesn't sound terribly interesting, does it? Needs are met, but it all exists to keep the wars going. And if our unfortunate scribe above happened to die on his way to work the next day, no one would mourn him. He'd be immediately replaced, and the big machine would keep on turning.

Sorry, can't agreee with that suggestion. It's your WH40k and if you're happy with it then by all means, have fun.

As for me, i can't accept this vision. It may be ok for some mad country hidden behind steel curtain, but not for 40 000 years old empire spanning over distances measured in thousands of lightyears. Half of that Imperium shouldn't neither know about some "crusade" taking place God-Emperor knows where, nor really care. "Really... Orks ? Living, animated corpses ? There are no such things. It's superstition".

Most Imperial citizens don't know that there is a war going on. Only when the Administratum sends the Tithe officers to their planet to levy every fit man into active service. Much of the Imperium is ignorant of the xenos species out there trying to kill them, and the only time they ever see an alien is when said alien is chopping them to bits.

If you are interested in seeing the office job workers of the Imperium, look up the short story "A Good Man" by Sandy Mitchell. It is in the Sabbat Worlds Anthology book, and instead of focusing on the frontline combat, it focuses on the follow up procedures of getting a planet back on track after the war moved on.

You know the Imperium of Man is only like, 12,000 years old, right? The Emperor's been around for a good 50,000 years or so, but the actual Imperium of Man is nowhere near that. In fact, The Imperium used to be a pretty good place until about 8,000 years ago, canonically, and after that it was just gradual misstep after misstep. It's not like they woke up one day and everything was bad (except for the Horus Heresy, the great divide that split the Imperium in half caused by the Emperor's favored son. That kind of set it over the edge.) But there were actually a number of good things that happened, like the Macharian Crusade, which reclaimed thousands of planets and rebuilt much of the imperium, numerous foundings of space marine chapters and research developments.

The thing is, the game takes place in the worst time in the whole galaxy. The "good guys" are cracking under pressure and the bad guys are getting more active. That's what makes it exciting, that's why it's interesting. It's the counter equivalent to the saturday morning cartoons where the good guys always wins and Starscream gets his head blown off (but he'll be back next week anyways). Most of the interest is derived from the "good guys" having to choose between a rock and a hard place to win. Do we try to stop this alien invasion force and risk millions of soldiers that could be put to better use on another planet, or do we wait for the planet to be overrun and just blow it up when everyone's landed? Not to mention that most of the technology was lost but held in rare datastorage schematic devices called STCs which makes invention more of a scavenger's hunt with not enough for everyone.

There is no good, there is no bad, there are just many-colored factions doing what they do best. And that's the appeal to a lot of people. It's what made me interested.

 

[Guilherme Zoldan]

I take 40K as just plain fun boyish fantasy. Its not scary or even really dark its just fun juvenile power fantasy made for the sake of awesome stuff. There are assasin space nuns in it, SPACE NUNS! Its just a fun setting.

 

[The Heik]

Hello there escapist!

I've been curious lately as to how many people who are familiar with the Warhammer 40K universe can take it seriously and get into the setting and so forth. I've found it immensely goofy and over the top for the longest time and my recent purchase of Dawn of War 2 + expansions did not help matters in the slightest. (Tubby bloke encouraging to drink puss coupled with 'Noise Marines' shooting purple rays and making lots of loud noises is not scary or depressing to me)

Oh and for those of you who have yet to be introduced to the Warhammer 40K universe this ought to be a good start:

Oh the WH40K universe is quite serious, in fact it may be the most serious of any sci-fi setting ever. All because of one defining term in the franchise: Desperation.

The Imperium, for all it's power and size, is dying. And there's not a thing the million elite Space Marines, trillions of Imperial Guard, thousands of specialist Inquisition agents, or any other armies within the Imperium of Man can do about it. They're beset on all sides by a whole host of foes, each a huge threat on it's own. If they were to only face only one such faction, they would have a big problem, but by facing all those deadly enemies simultaneously, all they can do is save what they can whilst watching the rest fall to death, consumption, or corruption. Imperial forces often have to destroy whole worlds because if they don't then twenty more will most likely fall if the threat remains unchecked. And it rarely stops said threat permanently as all those enemies each have a method by which they can continue to fight, meaning all that effort may be for naught.

It's the most horrible of situations. While you may achieve an occasional victory, in the end no unit or strategy you know will stop you from failing in the end, and such a grim realization has driven so many so madness.

Off-Topic: You seriously used a game mod to try and set the mood for WH40K? That's like using Carrot Top to set the mood of Shakespeare's Macbeth.

Also, you may have missed the point of the Plague Marines and Noise Marines, the former being a bloated rotting carcass that helps spread disease and death among people (imagine dying of the plague whilst simultaneously being turned into a puppet by it), while the latter uses sonic weapons that effectively liquify you by rupturing all of your organs and other tissue with intense superpowered vibrations (trust me, not a pretty sight). Both by any measure would be things to fear even the standards of the eight foot tall, two and a half ton super-soldiers that you play in the game, let alone by real life standards.

 

[JesterRaiin]

Doesn't sound terribly interesting, does it? Needs are met, but it all exists to keep the wars going. And if our unfortunate scribe above happened to die on his way to work the next day, no one would mourn him. He'd be immediately replaced, and the big machine would keep on turning.

Sorry, can't agreee with that suggestion. It's your WH40k and if you're happy with it then by all means, have fun.

Suggestion, what? Color me confused.

No problem, here you are man :
"Suggestion is the psychological process by which one person guides the thoughts, feelings, or behaviour of another."

My english may be in no better shape than God Emperor's body, but my brain isn't that badly decomposed. I hope.

And most of the Imperium doesn't believe in Chaos or the like, mostly because they've never seen it. (...)

Most Imperial citizens don't know that there is a war going on. Only when the Administratum sends the Tithe officers to their planet to levy every fit man into active service. Much of the Imperium is ignorant of the xenos species out there trying to kill them, and the only time they ever see an alien is when said alien is chopping them to bits.

You are also aware that most of it's core worlds ARE completely unaware of pretty much EVERYTHING trying to destroy it? Most worlds DON'T believe in the Orks or Chaos or even know that such things even exist. It's a big reason as to WHY they are losing!

So you, gentlemen, say that most of Imperial citizens live in seclusion ? They do not know about big picture, war, chaos and stuff ? This means no media, no news, no facts, no history, no information, no propaganda, no visits (or visitations), no connection with Imperium. No tax collectors, no cashflow, no trade, no medical aid, no technologies, no help, no control, no superiors, no feeling of wholeness. This leads to one thing : no need for Imperium.

"Why worry, since they do not care about us and probably just forgot that we still are here ? Moreover : do 'they' really exist ? My grandfather supposedly saw other worlds but you know how he is..."

Why anyone should join this big machine that Imperium is supposed to be if for "most" there is no plausible reason ? They do not rely on Imperium, so they must be self sufficent, right ? They have food, they reproduce, they are able to fulfill their dreams. Religion and/or fear aren't good enough for them to join the cycle, since both need to be stimulated and with lack of connection any form of stimulation is ruled out.

Generation or five of seclusion and bye-bye to Imperial cult. Men live for very short period of time. They change - that's a must for survival - only those who adapt to new situation survive. What they know changes, what they remember fades away, what they believe in is prone to mutations.

Soon they forget about universe they no longer need. And that's good, because in "grim darkness of 40th millenium" there's no place for daisies, ponies and colorful things - which is complete bullsh*t because simple people wage wars exactly because of that - because they want peacefullness.

There goes WH40k's economy, straight into trash bin. Imperium follows. Death by details.

There IS a way for WH40k setting to acquire "possible" status, but it would require some changes to setting. And no, that doesn't mean adding next chapter of uberpowerfull crusaders that fart waves of nuclear radiation.

"Really... Orks ? Living, animated corpses ? There are no such things. It's superstition".

And said God Emperor immediately has you put to death as one of the thousand he needs daily to prolong his life for even considering such a notion.

I don't care. I serve the Greater Good.

Personally, I find the lore to be far more interesting when you consider it to be Doctor Who's contrarian half brother. I might be off base, but I feel like the 2 mythos share a similar audience. (I've been getting that a lot lately, including other stuff like MLP and anime. I just generally get the feeling that people who enjoy said things would also enjoy Doctor Who greatly.)

Interesting. No doubtly Imperial Cult of Machine would be more than simply interested in acquiring Tardis. To jump through time and space, to warn Emperor about certain cretin's betrayal... Sir, you gave me an idea for next "Dark Heresy" campaign.

 

[CrawlingPastaHellion]

Tell me, how is WH40k a sci-fi? Only because it's set into the future? It's about as sci-fi as "Star Wars".

Because the fluff explores the interactions between technology and society's reaction to it. In 40K's case, what happens to a society when not only does it barely emerge from a technological apocalypse, but also how it manages to continue to exist with a severely fragmented technological and scientific base.

On a bit of a tangent, I love how Imperial society so very well mirrors our modern society's general ignorance regarding technology. We may deride those masses for having no idea how a lightbulb works, but keep in mind the common populace today is similarly ignorant.

Ditto on the jab at the modern IT industry exemplified by the lower levels of the AdMech.

Maybe it has some elements of sci-fi (as you point it out, it clearly does, where "Star Wars" does not). Yet the whole concept of demonic possessions and necromancy can hardly be considered sci-fi. What I mean is: as a whole it's just another fantasy, albeit being set into the future and having some, be it intentional or otherwise, sci-fi elements. The only real difference is that they're using plasma guns instead of bows and chainswords instead of regular swords.

I find the whole ordeal of good versus evil extremely ridiculous. The fact that it's set 38k years into the future makes it even more ridiculous.

Doesn't mean it can't be fun though.

WAY TO GO! YOU MISSED ONE OF THE POINTS OF THIS SERIES ENTIRELY! Seriously, it's not good or evil in this setting. Every single faction in this game has done more atrocious things before breakfast than in the entirety of human history up to this point. No side here is good. The closest you can get is "Not QUITE as bad as the other guys vs The other guys".

Oh, so it has a point now?

 

[JesterRaiin]

What I mean is: as a whole it's just another fantasy, albeit being set into the future and having some, be it intentional or otherwise, sci-fi elements.

Good observation. Plenty of "sci-fi" content in reality is "future fantasy" with "sci" element taken out of picture. I guess that even to eyes of common Imperial citizens some of accessories they use at daily basis are considered "magic" especialy with those "praise the Machine God" weirdos around...

 

[Saint of M]

Much of the 40k universe has parallel with real world cultures, The Empire of Man is loosely based off of Europe during the Dark Ages; Ultra Marines are Romans; White Scars are Mongols; Space Wolves are Vikings; Necrons are mummies.

How far the universe would have gone to heck is up to the viewer, but pretty much how Europe lost great wealth in knowledge, art, technology, and architecture, so is the 41 millennium.


The part I can't take seriously is Eldar are suppose to physically unable to store fat on their body, yet their women have c cups or bigger.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

Snip

No Genius, being unaware of what is happening off of your planet does not exclude someone from having history. Most Imperial planets operate independently, with only tangential connection to the rest of the Imperium via the Administratum officials on their planet. They can have fully functional economies, governments, histories and forms of media that exist on that planet.

There are still thousands of human planets that are unclaimed. After the Iron Men destroyed most of humanity's spacefaring technology, the Imperium went into a dark age. Entire systems were lost because they had no communication with each other. Imperial technology regressed by thousands of years over paranoia of another AI uprising.

Come the time of the Great Crusade, the Emperor gets his troops together, and starts conquering the stars, reclaiming the lost Imperial worlds. He doesn't get all of them, since the Horus Heresy puts the Crusade to a halt. Meaning that there are still more worlds that haven't been found.


The Imperium isn't needed by most of these planets. Thousands of them are still operating at a feudal level of technology, while others are around 20th century tech. To these worlds, the Imperium is just the name of the state, and the home of the Church. They don't need the Imperium, but the Imperium needs them.

When the Tithe officers roll around demanding troops be levied, they do so by threat of force. If you don't actively volunteer, they declare you traitors and blow your planet up. It's a vicious dictatorship.