Poll: Is treating women in Gentlemanly way Sexist?

[The Harkinator]

Its not being sexist. True shame some people think it is.

Honestly, its a wonder anybody makes an effort to be polite if they're going to get their head bitten off.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Not unless you have a sense of entitlement (beyond maybe getting a "thank you," that is) about it.

That said, I'd argue that she should say "thank you" if you do that.

Sir, I say no to that!

One should act gentlemanly for the sake of being gentlemanly.

Otherwise we'd be no different from the gutter trash.

*sips tea*

Quite.

Is that PG Tips you're sipping? Yorkshire Gold, perhaps? Or have you gone oriental, and it's green tea?

I'm in a PG mood today.

I may have some Twining's Earl Grey later.

 

[tensorproduct]

The conversation so far has gotten very caught up on the "holding doors open" issue. I think that it's more interesting to discuss the other gentlemanly behaviours.

So, pulling out a chair before dinner. Say Darcy, Bingley and Wickham are dining with Elizabeth, Jane and Lydia (the idea of dining with an uneven numbers of men and women is simply unthinkable in gentle company). The menfolk have finished thrashing the serving boys (while the ladies entertained with music and singing) and now it is time to sit for dinner.

Who pulls out a chair for whom?

The gentlemanly way: Darcy pulls out Lizzie's chair, Bingley Jane's and Wickham Lydia's. Each gentleman waits until the respective lady has sat before before taking their own seat.

The ungentlemanly way: Everyone pulls out their own chair and sits once they have done so.

The "I'm a gentleman to everyone" way: Clusterfuck.

Spoiler

Lizzie jumps to pull out Darcy's chair just to prove a point. Darcy doesn't even notice, because he is busy trying to murder Wickham with a soup spoon. Poor Wickham has no chance to fight him off, as Lydia has plastered herself all over his face. Jane and Bingley just stand there giggling and making moon-eyes at each other, having completely forgotten everything else.

 

[newwiseman]

I've known many, many, far too many, women who have complained that men are not gentlemanly and and in the same breath chewed out the male waiter for pulling out her chair for her at a nice restaurant. One date's exact words "What, because I'm a woman I can't seat myself?" I was so shocked by the contradiction I called her out on it, she blasted out some crazy femni-nazi rhetoric so far out of left field I just got up and left.

My basic rule is to treat people with respect and if they have a problem something is probably wrong with them.

 

[The Funslinger]

Not unless you have a sense of entitlement (beyond maybe getting a "thank you," that is) about it.

That said, I'd argue that she should say "thank you" if you do that.

Sir, I say no to that!

One should act gentlemanly for the sake of being gentlemanly.

Otherwise we'd be no different from the gutter trash.

*sips tea*

Quite.

Is that PG Tips you're sipping? Yorkshire Gold, perhaps? Or have you gone oriental, and it's green tea?

I'm in a PG mood today.

I may have some Twining's Earl Grey later.

By the white rose, I'm obliged to put on a kettle of Yorkshire Gold myself.

With cup and saucer in hand, and a sword on my hip, I shall take the battle to those Lancastrian traitors. As well as anyone south of our borders. Or North of our borders. Damn Scots.

Edit: Botched that post. How embarrassing.

 

[MrLumber]

Here is an interesting comparison whenever I see people talking about how treating subset of humanity X, if we treated everyone equally, what would happen to the mentally disabled? If treating people differently is wrong, what happens when different people NEED to be treated differently. Basing decisions off of ones state of being is perfectly acceptable as long as you don't discriminate in a way that results in one party being lessened because of it (see segregation).

 

[Loonyyy]

So escapist, does the fact I want to be a gentleman make me sexist?

By very definition, it's sexist.

Done. Oh, you thought this was thought provoking, or something that could have any more than one answer?

Whether there's any problem with it is a different matter. In my mind, it's kind of pathetic anyway. Just be equally polite to everyone. If you think women are deserving of a certain standard of treatment, then men would have to be equal to the same level of treatment. Unless of course, it's a simple matter of a more base ulterior motive. Which is the pathetic part I mentioned.

 

[Lytrise]

It depends on how and why it?s done. I?m female but I often open doors for people and it?s not because I don?t think that they couldn?t do it themselves, but rather because I think it?s rude to let a door fall back in towards someone after I?ve gone out it. It?s only when someone does it because they don?t think you can do it on your own or when they rush to do it just because you?re a woman that it starts edging towards sexism. Basically I think it just boils down to what?s going on at the time as to if it warrants ?extra help?, I mind someone opening things like car doors less when I?m carrying things or contending with heels and a long skirt than I do when it?s all the time. In such cases it becomes polite rather than demeaning.

 

[Hagi]

So, afew people on here have called me sexist. What for? For suggesting that men treat women in a gentlemanly manner. Now, I can see that too a certain extent, like the whole "The world is unsafe for women, So I will keep you away from the world" style of gentleman-re IS sexist. However, what I was refering too was holding the door open for a women, pulling out her chair for her, offering her your jacket if it is cold, things like that. THAT is what I fail to see as being sexist.

So escapist, does the fact I want to be a gentleman make me sexist?

Would you also hold open the door for a man?
Pull out a chair for a man?
Offer a man your jacket if it is cold?

If yes then you're not sexist.
If no then you are sexist.

 

[Launcelot111]

I hold doors and help people carry things and stuff like that all the time and indiscriminately. I don't see that as chivalrous in relation to women as much as courteous and considerate. However, my family is really hardcore on the women sit down/order first thing, and the one that really grinds my gears, the "all men should stand when a women gets up from the table or sits down" one. It's a waste of energy, I don't know what it shows to women or represents in a man, it just seems like outdated ritual for which the point has been forgotten to me. My mom and aunts get legitimately mad when I don't budge just because they need to step away for two minutes. Stuff like that is unnecessary and pointless deference that is somewhat benign but still very much sexist.

 

[Kahunaburger]

If I get to a door first, I'll hold it open, and have literally never caught shit from anyone of either gender for holding the door open for them. Maybe because I don't make a big deal about it. Also, I've offered jackets to women on several occasions, and have never caught shit for that either because I don't act all creepy about it.

People tend to like friendly gestures. People tend to like stuff like the coat thing from people they're attracted to. People tend not to like gestures that are delivered in a "I'm not doing this because I'm a nice person, I'm doing this as a cultural holdover from a time when people like you were regarded as second-class citizens." They also tend not to like stuff like the coat thing from people they aren't attracted to. Not exactly rocket science.

 

[tensorproduct]

How about opening a car door?

Hoke and Miss Daisy have arrived at their destination. Who will open the car door?

The gentlemanly way: Miss Daisy sits patiently while Hoke gets out and circles the car to open the door for her.

The ungentlemanly way: They each open their own door and get out of the car.

The "I'm a gentleman to everyone" way: Clusterfuck.

Spoiler

Both sit there arguing about who should open the door for the other, as neither wishes to appear impolite both being "gentle". They sit for so long that they forget that they have in fact come to the hospital urgently seeking anti-vemon. Both die.

captcha: saucy!

 

[nathan-dts]

Treating people differently because of gender is sexism. Deal with it, bro. It's natural though, you're just instinctively looking to get laid.

 

[manic_depressive13]

Treating someone differently based on their gender like that is simply basic sexism. Thinking someone deserves to be treated differently like that really is an obvious case.

Yes, it is sexist and, contrary to how some people here seem to feel, being sexist is indeed a bad thing.

Yeah, I'm not 100% sure I'm with you guys on this one. While discrimination based on gender certainly does lie at the heart of sexism, I believe in the most commonly accepted definitions of the term there is also an implication of inferiority (or superiority) tied to gender.

So while "I hold doors open for women because women are too feeble to open their own doors" would most definitely be sexist, I'm not entirely certain "I hold doors open for women because it makes me feel like a gentleman" qualifies as "sexist", unless you're embracing an extremely mutable definition of the term. At which point I'd argue it loses almost all of its significance as a descriptor.

But why would you only do it for women? Why not be a gentleman to everyone? Any behaviour that encourages discrimination between genders merely breeds more damaging sexist attitudes. Stuff like "Women want equal pay yet they still expect the men to foot the bill!" You might feel like you're being a gentleman by paying for lunch or pulling out a chair for a woman but you're merely fueling sexist gender roles.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Being nice is being nice. I hold the door for guys walking in behind me on my way to class, they hold the door for me - no problems with it. Behaving well towards the opposite sex, as well as one's own, should be encouraged as behaving well and treated as an act of consideration, not an act of sexism.

...unless it's totally sexist in overtone. For example: offering me a coat if I'm visibly chilly is cool; offering me a coat and saying "I know girls are always cold" questionable; offering me a coat and saying "you need this, I don't, girls are weak vs. cold" annoying; throwing the coat down over a puddle in front of me on the assumption that I'm too dainty to dirty a shoe, completely stupid and sexist.

Hope the sliding scale helps.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

But why would you only do it for women? Why not be a gentleman to everyone? Any behaviour that encourages discrimination between genders merely breeds more damaging sexist attitudes. Stuff like "Women want equal pay yet they still expect the men to foot the bill!" You might feel like you're being a gentleman by paying for lunch or pulling out a chair for a woman but you're merely fueling sexist gender roles.

You're extrapolating wildly though, operating on the presumption that A necessarily leads to B. And I would argue that it's more likely a by-product of courtship behavior than gender role reinforcement.

Whatever the case, "Sexist" is a powerful label, and I think we need to be careful how we apply it, even colloquially. Distilling it down to something as basic as "distinguishing between men and women" seems a little silly, on the face. I think the English language is flexible enough that we can come up with descriptors for that behavior that are more appropriate...and less emotionally loaded...than "sexism".

 

[Kouen]

Most things can be twisted to be racist or sexist.

I'm a gentleman regardless and if the woman I am offering a polite gesture to cant take that as just being polite they can f-off in my opinion.

There is nothing wrong with a little manners and in fact (sounding old here) I think some (not all) of the younger generation could learn a thing or two about manners.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Most things can be twisted to be racist or sexist.

I'm a gentleman regardless and if the woman I am offering a polite gesture to cant take that as just being polite they can f-off in my opinion.

There is nothing wrong with a little manors and in fact (sounding old here) I think some (not all) of the younger generation could learn a thing or two about manors.

I'd love to learn about manors. Especially old English Manors. Some of the architecture that went into those is truly breathtaking.

 

[tensorproduct]

There is nothing wrong with a little manors and in fact (sounding old here) I think some (not all) of the younger generation could learn a thing or two about manors.

Agreed, and if just a few more people had manors then those people would certainly be gentlemen.

 

[tensorproduct]

Most things can be twisted to be racist or sexist.

I'm a gentleman regardless and if the woman I am offering a polite gesture to cant take that as just being polite they can f-off in my opinion.

There is nothing wrong with a little manors and in fact (sounding old here) I think some (not all) of the younger generation could learn a thing or two about manors.

I'd love to learn about manors. Especially old English Manors. Some of the architecture that went into those is truly breathtaking.

Dammit Guppy, you beat me to it.