Poll: Israel: Is it's existence justified?

[phosphor112]

@ Oneirius

(For those who haven't read his post, go to page 3 or so and read it.)

I have to say, I was touched. I'm Arab myself, my parents are refugees from Iraq and we currently live in the US. I have to say, I'm glad to see an Israeli as open minded as you. In fact, I personally believe there are a lot like you, except their voices can never be heard due to all the anger.

I hope more people get to read your post, it is worth while.

Oh, and another thing, Islam doesn't hate Jews, it is just that somewhere a long the line of leaders to cause chaos after Muhammad, they started to give the image of Jews as evil. They aren't. In fact, when Muhammad married one of his wives, she started saying bad things about another one of his wives, which was a daughter of a major Jewish figure..I can't think of the name right now, but to continue on. The Arab one would insult the Jewish one, and the Jewish wife went to Muhammad and told him about her doings. So Muhammad told the Jewish wife to tell the other wife "Are you better than someone who's father is Moses and who's uncle is Pharoh?" This shows a little insight that the Jews were accepted by Muhammad, and those things Muhammad believed SHOULD have been followed, but sadly, they didn't.

I will pray for you, the ones lost in the Holocaust, all of those who died in wars, accidents, natural causes and those who live today. Everyone could use a prayer. I will pray for peace, good health, strong will power, and so much more.

In Islam, we say "Insha Allah" meaning "God willing" and Insha Allah that everything will turn out better...after all, Muslims believe he is all merciful, and hopefully that will show before its too late.

I will say this to you Oneirius...

Salam (Shalom) my friend.

 

[Raregolddragon]

At the start of the game someone else had the land, till it was taken away.

Odd the only worth while living and trading spot was use for the new state.

 

[sonidraw]

Hi. The name is Leonard. I am almost 16, and sometimes I peek around this forum while waiting for Zero Punctuation to load. You have a wonderful community. Hope I will get absorbed into it quickly.

So, anyway: I live in Raanana, Israel. It's a beutiful city. Small, hardly a city by most standards, and most people are old and creepily religious. But it is a very calm and beutiful place, too. The swamp that was once here is all but gone. Our city has amazing gardens and parks, the education is considerd very good and there is almost no crime.
I lived in Raanana my whole life. In fact, so did my father and grandfather(His father came from Russia). So I am an Israeli in blood and in heart. That makes me the worst or the best guy to ask about this topic, depending on who you ask. By the way, today is Yom Ha'Shoa in Israel. (If you read this post, please send a short prayer to all the Holocaust victims. They deserve it). Next week is Yom Ha'Zikaron.(In which we remember the victims of the wars that plagued Israel since it's birth), so I decided to join this forum so that I can at least add something to this discussion that troubles us all. It is the right thing to do, I belive.

So you are asking what is my opinion about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? I will be very honest with you: I think that nobody here, not me, not you, not even most politicians in or out of Israel know enugh about the subject to have an actual opinion. I have had the pleasure and the honour to meet a man who devoted his whole lift to the study of this very topic, yet even he said that he would never be able to form a good opinion because humans as a species, no matter how they hide it, are at their core biased, self serving assholes who only care about themselves and themselves and themselves.
He is very right. I live this conflict ever since I was born. My girlfriend, a girl that I cared about very much, was killed by a Palestinian rocket* a few weeks ago. My older brother, a man who I care very much about Will never be the same after the horrors he saw during his service. Yet I force myself not to hate the Pelestinians, because I know this hate will not be justified and will make me as bad as all the others around here who know nothing about the conflict and simply shout to be heard.

I am eqully disgusted and filled with pity when I see a six years old Palestinian boy in the news or the six years old orthodox boy from next door shouting that the [other side] are all evil bloodthirsty warmongering monsters and that they will gladly sacrafice their lives to destroy [other side].

I DO NOT think that the settlers\colonists\however they are called in your place(We call tham Mitnachalim) have any right to set up their rickity villages on Palestinian territory(Israel is doing it's best to demolish those, but they are zealous and fanatic and just settle somwhere else). I also DO NOT think Palestinians have the right to kidnap soldiers or send suicide bombers into shopping malls or bus stations befor they tried peacful negotiations(And don't tell me they did. When the solution was suggested that would give the two peoples an equal shar of the land(I actually think they were promised more but I don't remember clearly and I don't want to say anythink dangerous), the jews agreed, but the arabs just started making threats that eventually escalated into a very bloody war whose peorpse was TOTAL ANNIHILATION of the jewish people).

I do not think Tzahal(You call tham the IDF, right?) soldiers have the right to use innocent bystanders as meat shields or targate practice(They say they "suspected they might be carrying weapons", but I don't belive tham. They were just bloodthirsty fanatics no better than the suicide bombers and I am happy they were severely punished. I also do not think the Palestinians have any right to attack civialians all day with kasams(My aforementioned girlfriend had to the shelter ten times a day a few years ago). Note that I do not pity the Palestinian civilians killed in bombing runs: I don't know if you heard about it, but Tzahal makes it a practice of alwayes sending warning to Palestinian leaders befor performing one. The fact that the civilians are not evacuated immediately proves either that said leaders are stuiped, powerless, or twisted to the point of sacraficing dozens of innocent Palestinians for the sake of making Israel look bad. Also note that we Tzahal makes utmost effort to avoid collateral damage when bombing, even if it makes their job a thousands times more difficult. Unlike, say, one country whose name I can't quite recall who naplamed the shit out of another country some forty years ago. They also used chemical weapons, but that is another thing already.

I do not think we have a right to own Jerusalem. I do not think anybody has. If it was up to me I would say the place needs to be blown the fuck up to solve many many many problems. But it is not up to me.

If there was a peacful resolution available it would be great. But their is not. Both sides are to stubborn and both hate the other side so unconditionally that this would likely never happen.

Israel alwayes was, is now, and will likely alwayes be at a state of war. It is a shame, but we simply have no other place to go. This is our home. This is where we were born. This is the land of our ancestors and this of of our children. The arabics can, of course, say the exact same and nobody would ever be able to prove he is right.

You must understand: Today is the day where our whole country goes silent in remembrance of the Holocaust. Today is the day where we are most aware of the fact that Israel is our only home, our only sanctuary in a world that hates us, whether there is a reason or ther is not. And we will protect this haven no matter what, because we truly can't go anywhere else.
We jews went through hell. Some of us, less than a half of us, survived, albeit with scars to their very souls. They came here following dreams and prophecies thousands of years old, expacting to find peace. They never did. Critisize Israel at your leisure, but please, don't deny us the only thing we have.

P.S. My younger brother, four years old asked me just a minuete ago what I was doing. I said that I am telling people in far away lands that Israel is not evil. He was quite and then he said "Please tell tham that we are not evil. We do not like to kill. It is sad.". How very touching.

P.P.S. Don't listen to what the media tells you. The media is alwayes biased. This war saw the burned corpses of Israeli and Palestinian babies. Most networks will only show you one, quietly forgetting about the other). It is the way media works. It is a shame.

* She lived in Sderot. Not a good idea at all. By the way, my ex girlfriend died of brain cancer, and the one before her in a car accident. Someome up there wants me to stay alone, I susspose.



Good evening, everyone.
Leonard

I'm touched, and I want to say that my prayers are with you.

I think this is the most relevant and touching post in this thread, and I just want to quote it so folks who are just joining the thread can get a chance to read it too.

 

[sam13lfc]

I'm not looking for a thread-locking fight, but I must say I am completely against it. It was very wrong, in my opinion, to basically kick out the people who were ALREADY living there. No one deserves the space to live in more than anyone else so it was wrong to take it.

 

[Benny Blanco]

Well the land was technically never there's in the first place
i think it should not have been created although the jews did need somewhere to go

there's a famous saying that actually is said in many religions

"The Jews are cursed to never have a land of their own"

Not being oiffensive or rascist or trying to say that jews are bad but simply stating something that seems very intresting

Overall i think we should come down to one thing , Were they there first ?

And the US is technically on stolen land from the Natives, and you know what they did? They slaughtered every last one of them! Hell, I have less of a right to live on this land than Israelis because they're continually fighting for it right now!

But I really don't want to delve into this topic, it'll just turn out ugly. I will agree however that Israel was not exactly established in the best of places in the world...

America needs to stop policing the world. If Israel is meant to survive, it will on its own power. We've given it enough help.

We need to let the Middle East fight their never-ending moronic war.

Remember the good old days, when Middle Easterners were too busy in their attempts to exterminate Jews to plan terrorist attacks on the United States? I miss those days.

Trying to stop their fighting is pointless. Just let them drag each other down into the shit. Eventually they'll just nuke each other. Problem solved.

Yeah, yeah, I'm heartless. I'm just starting to doubt whether people from that region can be reasoned with. Can you reason with people so brainwashed that they destroy themselves for the ideals that have been shoved in their heads by their leaders? Yeah, yeah, the ones who blow themselves up are extremists, but look around you. Do you see any Catholic suicide bombers blowing up the local Walmart for Jesus? No, you don't. For whatever reason, they're much more violent than we are.

Wow. Are you an ignorant racist or are just chronically misinformed?

The Middle East is an enormous area and by no means ethnically, linguistically or religiously homogenised. Have you ever been? Have you ever met any Middle Eastern people? Ever sat down and chatted to them? I think it's easy to forget why SOME people in those countries act in extreme ways- I don't think you or anyone in the west would put up for a moment with the treatment that many Palestinians receive on a daily basis at the hands of IDF soldiers. Only when you have been through such treatment that you are truly uncaring as to whether you live or die will you strap a bomb to your chest and board a bus full of civilians.

It doesn't help that there are unscrupulous people out there who are prepared to exploit this desperation and hate to further their goals. The same can be said of many other countries, but unfortunately they tend to be more prominent in countries with a weak state, or in countries where they can take over the state through a one-party system, military-industrial complex or theocracy...

The people of Israel deserve peace and prosperity but not at the cost of other people who share their land. It is a sad irony of history that the survivors of Nazi camps built their own state with razor-wire, watchtowers and colour-coded identification to demarcate second-class citizens (FYI Israeli Cars have Yellow Plates, Palestinian ones are Blue) Not to mention the racism of the Israeli state- Religion plays less role than you'd think as many Arabs in Israel-Palestine are Jewish or Christian (neighbouring Lebanon has a population that is 40% Christian, as well as having other non-Muslim populations) and still get persecuted.

The fact remains that Israel is almost universally condemned for its human rights record but the US (and occasionally the UK) use their veto to block UN resolutions requiring Israel to adhere to international law and the terms of their previous peace agreements... The Israel lobby's pleas for special treatment are getting really stale- there are dangerous Anti-Semitic nutters out there (President Ahmedinejad for instance) but if the Israelis keep crying wolf every time someone critises their policies no-one will ever help them.

As for "Catholic Suicide Bombers at Walmart" did you forget the Inquisition? The religious nuts who bomb abortion clinics because they're THAT pro-life? The 10 commandments in courtrooms of a land whose constitution expressly separates Church and State?

 

[Azeban]

Well the land was technically never there's in the first place
i think it should not have been created although the jews did need somewhere to go

there's a famous saying that actually is said in many religions

"The Jews are cursed to never have a land of their own"

Not being oiffensive or rascist or trying to say that jews are bad but simply stating something that seems very intresting

Overall i think we should come down to one thing , Were they there first ?

And the US is technically on stolen land from the Natives, and you know what they did? They slaughtered every last one of them! Hell, I have less of a right to live on this land than Israelis because they're continually fighting for it right now!

But I really don't want to delve into this topic, it'll just turn out ugly. I will agree however that Israel was not exactly established in the best of places in the world...

America needs to stop policing the world. If Israel is meant to survive, it will on its own power. We've given it enough help.

We need to let the Middle East fight their never-ending moronic war.

Remember the good old days, when Middle Easterners were too busy in their attempts to exterminate Jews to plan terrorist attacks on the United States? I miss those days.

Trying to stop their fighting is pointless. Just let them drag each other down into the shit. Eventually they'll just nuke each other. Problem solved.

Yeah, yeah, I'm heartless. I'm just starting to doubt whether people from that region can be reasoned with. Can you reason with people so brainwashed that they destroy themselves for the ideals that have been shoved in their heads by their leaders? Yeah, yeah, the ones who blow themselves up are extremists, but look around you. Do you see any Catholic suicide bombers blowing up the local Walmart for Jesus? No, you don't. For whatever reason, they're much more violent than we are.

Wow. Are you an ignorant racist or are just chronically misinformed?

The Middle East is an enormous area and by no means ethnically, linguistically or religiously homogenised. Have you ever been? Have you ever met any Middle Eastern people? Ever sat down and chatted to them? I think it's easy to forget why SOME people in those countries act in extreme ways- I don't think you or anyone in the west would put up for a moment with the treatment that many Palestinians receive on a daily basis at the hands of IDF soldiers. Only when you have been through such treatment that you are truly uncaring as to whether you live or die will you strap a bomb to your chest and board a bus full of civilians.

It doesn't help that there are unscrupulous people out there who are prepared to exploit this desperation and hate to further their goals. The same can be said of many other countries, but unfortunately they tend to be more prominent in countries with a weak state, or in countries where they can take over the state through a one-party system, military-industrial complex or theocracy...

The people of Israel deserve peace and prosperity but not at the cost of other people who share their land. It is a sad irony of history that the survivors of Nazi camps built their own state with razor-wire, watchtowers and colour-coded identification to demarcate second-class citizens (FYI Israeli Cars have Yellow Plates, Palestinian ones are Blue) Not to mention the racism of the Israeli state- Religion plays less role than you'd think as many Arabs in Israel-Palestine are Jewish or Christian (neighbouring Lebanon has a population that is 40% Christian, as well as having other non-Muslim populations) and still get persecuted.

The fact remains that Israel is almost universally condemned for its human rights record but the US (and occasionally the UK) use their veto to block UN resolutions requiring Israel to adhere to international law and the terms of their previous peace agreements... The Israel lobby's pleas for special treatment are getting really stale- there are dangerous Anti-Semitic nutters out there (President Ahmedinejad for instance) but if the Israelis keep crying wolf every time someone critises their policies no-one will ever help them.

As for "Catholic Suicide Bombers at Walmart" did you forget the Inquisition? The religious nuts who bomb abortion clinics because they're THAT pro-life? The 10 commandments in courtrooms of a land whose constitution expressly separates Church and State?

The Inquisition was over by the 18th century. We've stopped acting like barbarians. They continue to. Are you really comparing a few scattered incidents with the suicide bombings that occur every god-damned day? To 9/11? What I'm saying is that there is no way for the United States to end this ancient, extremely complicated conflict. They need to fight amongst themselves, because apparently it's all they know how to do.

Ooh, lookie, I responded to a forum post without resorting to calling someone a racist. I'm not racist. It's not the fact that they're brown that makes a good number of them (read: NOT ALL, NOT EVEN MOST, BUT ENOUGH TO MAKE PEACE IMPOSSIBLE) homicidal. It's the incorrect way that their leaders interpreting the Koran. It's their culture. It's something the United States has no chance changing.

 

[ender214]

I'm unsure. On one hand, I have Jewish friends and I guess the Jews deserve a homeland. On the other hand, going into Palestinian territory, carving out a chunk (and a rather important chunk), and giving it to the Jews probably wasn't the best way to go about it...

 

[ElephantGuts]

@ Oneirius

(For those who haven't read his post, go to page 3 or so and read it.)

I have to say, I was touched. I'm Arab myself, my parents are refugees from Iraq and we currently live in the US. I have to say, I'm glad to see an Israeli as open minded as you. In fact, I personally believe there are a lot like you, except their voices can never be heard due to all the anger.

I hope more people get to read your post, it is worth while.

Oh, and another thing, Islam doesn't hate Jews, it is just that somewhere a long the line of leaders to cause chaos after Muhammad, they started to give the image of Jews as evil. They aren't. In fact, when Muhammad married one of his wives, she started saying bad things about another one of his wives, which was a daughter of a major Jewish figure..I can't think of the name right now, but to continue on. The Arab one would insult the Jewish one, and the Jewish wife went to Muhammad and told him about her doings. So Muhammad told the Jewish wife to tell the other wife "Are you better than someone who's father is Moses and who's uncle is Pharoh?" This shows a little insight that the Jews were accepted by Muhammad, and those things Muhammad believed SHOULD have been followed, but sadly, they didn't.

I will pray for you, the ones lost in the Holocaust, all of those who died in wars, accidents, natural causes and those who live today. Everyone could use a prayer. I will pray for peace, good health, strong will power, and so much more.

In Islam, we say "Insha Allah" meaning "God willing" and Insha Allah that everything will turn out better...after all, Muslims believe he is all merciful, and hopefully that will show before its too late.

I will say this to you Oneirius...

Salam (Shalom) my friend.

"Insha Allah"? So that's what my Imams were saying in Medieval 2: Total War! Sorry, I'm just glad that I found that out. And I'm glad to see that people from completely different sides if a conflict can get together here and converse peacefully and, most importantly, sanely.

 

[Horticulture]

The Inquisition was over by the 18th century. We've stopped acting like barbarians. They continue to. Are you really comparing a few scattered incidents with the suicide bombings that occur every god-damned day? To 9/11 9/11 9/11? What I'm saying is that there is no way for the United States to end this ancient, extremely complicated conflict. They need to fight amongst themselves, because apparently it's all they know how to do.

The irony here is that 9/11 was actually a quasi-inside job involving the vast Jewish-Neoconservative-Nazi-Communist conspiracy used to justify the expansion of the Zionist-Crusader empire and the invasion of 'Big Brother'-style government into the lives of honest, God-fearing citizens (ultimately conceived by Walt Disney in a plot to perfect Hitler's Final Solution). It's all in a scathing expose at this highly credible independent news outlet [http://jewsdid911.ytmnd.com/].

 

[lenin_117]

I don't think it was fair for a religion to claim land off any country. It's stupid. I also don't like that you've referenced wikipedia as a source to learn from.

 

[EzraPound]

One-plural-state solution involving a bilingual country called "Israel & Palestine", like "Bosnia and Herzegovinia."

 

[L.B. Jeffries]

And if you're going to simply dismiss my points as "crazy" as opposed to atleast making an attempt to answer them, I don't think we have anything to discuss here. And if that is going to be the case I suggest you leave the thread because some people are trying to sustain an intelligent, fact-based discussion here.

Alrighty. All facts are from Wikipedia.

1) Starting a conversation by accusing me of being a liar and misguiding people is a funny way of keeping it intelligent and fact based. Also, charming lines like ?I'll be back later with my intimidating combination of superior logic and common sense" mostly convince me that you're a spoiled brat.

2) My exact statement was "It's hard to argue they have a right to the place when an entire country was already there when they moved in, took over the government, and then waged war on everyone around them." You flatly declared that all of this is a lie.

Point 1 "an entire country was already there when they moved in"

It belonged to the Ottoman Empire originally (I don't take the Bible literally so I don't buy the ancestral homeland argument) which Zionists were slowly buying up and moving into. After WW I it went to the British Mandate who declared their intention to turn it into a Jewish Homeland. The Arabs were not keen on this, there were several massacres and fights over a period of decades as Jews moved in, Arabs flipped out, and things generally got nasty because the British were, as you pointed out, fairly incompetent. WW2 starts, things get ugly, and when the war is over the UN votes on what do about the Jewish homeland situation. ALL ARABS vote against it, the Jews are for it. In May 1948 the existence of Israel is declared and all neighboring Arab nations invade because they deem the plan invalid. The UN backs Israel, the Arabs get the s*** kicked out of them.

So, yes, an entire country was already there when they started moving in during the 1880's, when they tried to get the British to give it to them in the 1920's, and there was still one there in the 1940's when the majority population of Arabs said they didn't want to be a Jewish nation.

Point 2 "took over the government"

From your wikipedia article: "The 630,000-700,000 Palestinians who fled or were expelled from the areas that became Israel were not allowed to return to their homes, and took up residence in refugee camps in surrounding countries, including Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, and the area that was later to be known as the Gaza Strip; they were usually not allowed to leave refugee camps and mix with the local Arab society either, leaving the Palestinian refugee problem unsolved even today."

One of the funny things about a democracy is that if you kick out everyone who doesn't agree with you, then you can win elections pretty easily. Israel, again I'm drawing from your article, would not allow these people in SPECIFICALLY because it would alter the Jewish state so that the voting population was no longer predominately Jewish. They also charmingly kept all of the land they won in the war despite it violating the original UN plans.

So yes, they took over the government.

Point 3 "waged war on everyone around them"

War of 1956: Israel helps Britain and France invade Egypt for the Sinai Canal.

War of 1967: Israel stages a pre-emptive strike against Egypt and Syria. Israel destroys the Egyptian airforce. The West Bank and Golan Heights are both seized from Jordan and Syria respectively.

1967 to 1970: Egypt and Israel generally shoot at each other.

War of 1973: Egypt and Syria, pissed about the last couple of rounds, are dicks to Israel by invading during Yom Kippur. Invading when everyone is fasting is pretty f***ing lame.

1978 or Operation Litani: Israel invades Lebanon. International outcry makes Israel withdraw.

1982: Again, Israel invades Lebanon. Although not directly responsible, Israel backs several insane Christian militias which massacre 1000 Palestinians.

1983 to 1993: The Palestinians flip out and the Intifada begins. Things get ugly. This pretty much continues on to present day with cease fires breaking things up occasionally.

2006: 3 Israeli soldiers are killed by terrorists and they run to Lebanon. Israel retaliates. From the wiki: "The conflict killed more than a thousand people, most of whom were Lebanese civilians and Hezbollah fighters; and displaced 974,184 Lebanese[21] and 300,000-500,000 Israelis."

So yeah, I'd say Israel has waged war with everyone around them

Subsequent Comments

Now on the second Post I'll admit I was bit a rude to you, but the fact that you called me a liar and flatly said everything I'd just summarized was untrue convinced me you were some bonkers Zionist. Accusing me of being on drugs is, again, not helping your whole intellectual and factual discussion thing.

My follow-up comment was again, reiterating that to me personally anyone who found that first post to be an outright lie would strike me as either delusional or insane. Try to keep in mind that your first impressions with me stuck. Little gems like "I don't know how you could consider this Israel waging war on its neighbors" when I referenced the Egyptian Conflicts again struck me as insane or delusional.

You then, once again, called me a liar in that first post. I won't repeat my justifications, you can go read them. When I pointed out that most people thought you were the one lying, I mostly meant that you were the only person who seemed to think I was making all of this up.

Wrapping Up

Do not call me a liar. Do not presume that my education is inferior to yours. If you want to engage someone in a discussion and you don't agree with them, don't insult their intellect or honesty. Simply ask for sources, explanation, or any other number of polite options.

 

[mark0217]

Seriously, Israel should have never been created. They don't NEED a country. It should be kept strictly as an ethnicity term and not a nacionality.
Personally, I couldn't care less where I live, as long as I'm not hearing bombs go off at night.

 

[Perryman93]

Yes, yes I do think so. After all palestinian terrorists started attacking Israel and then everyone blames Israel. Yes I know it might not always have been the palesinians.
Also they made a badass tank. And they won the Six Day War.

Israel belonged to palestinians first, britain and america set up the state of israel in the 50s because we felt sorry for what happened during the holocaust !! the palestinians only believe that they are fighting for the freedom to be ruled by someone of their own religion! personally i am on the palestinians side! and no i am NOT anti semitic i just feel that the palestinians have a stronger, and historically older claim to the territory!!!

What "claim"? The Native Americans had "claim" to their land, and look how that turned out!

It's useless saying "This is mine!" "Well I don't see your name on it!" "but I had it first!" debate because that's not how war, or history for that matter, works at all.

So what, you had it first? Well to bad, it's mine now! Either deal with it or try to take it back, and that's exactly what the Palestinians are doing right now. I'm sick of people saying that because they were here first, it means that it's theirs, when that's never been the case in any land acquirement in the history of the whole world.

those 'terrorists' are the army of gaza, they are launching those attacks to stop Israel's attempts to to annex/conquer a country that is not theirs! those 'terrorists' are effectively the army of the government of the gaza strip , because due to what israel has done, the infra structure of the are is so badly damaged they cannot hold proper government or run the country properly!


the land was theres the jewish population do not deserve to be given a country just because of 'the holocaust' and because the current british/american governments felt sorry for them!! its a disgrace to human rights and so called 'democracy' frankly the country should never have existed, and should be dissolved and the land returned to its muslim proprietors!! and i am in no way anti semitic but i frankly agree with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's speech at the UN racism summit, which israel is boycotting!!!! because they are racist against muslims!!!

I don't believe you should be allowed to have whatever you have. Why? Oh, it's nothing you did. Some random entity screwed up and did you a favour but it has pissed off a lot of your neighbours and a few odd passers-by. So, to make everybody else happy, I'm going to take away everything you have and everything you have ever known. Sounds fair, right?

i never said that was fair, but that is what israel is effectively doing to people who did live in that are of the world, taken away their right to be ruled by someone of their own religion! and the people of GAZA having their homes destroyed by israeli troops, that is taking away everything they have ever known!! you hypocrite

Perhaps the "government" in gaza should have been doing some governing and stopped the thousands of terrorist attacks launched from their territory into their neighbour's territory. Had they done that, there would have been no need for the Israeli army to move into Gaza. It's the terrorist's hiding behind the skirts of the civilians in the Gaza that resulted in the houses being destroyed.

 

[ElephantGuts]

Alrighty. All facts are from Wikipedia.

1) Starting a conversation by accusing me of being a liar and misguiding people is a funny way of keeping it intelligent and fact based. Also, charming lines like ?I'll be back later with my intimidating combination of superior logic and common sense" mostly convince me that you're a spoiled brat.

2) My exact statement was "It's hard to argue they have a right to the place when an entire country was already there when they moved in, took over the government, and then waged war on everyone around them." You flatly declared that all of this is a lie. ...

Alright, this is what I'm talking about. A nice long post I can respond to. Let's see.

First off, I'll admit it was quite rude to simply say that you were lying. But most of what you said was a lie (although the points are somewhat debatable, and I look forward to doing just that further down in this post). If not lies, they least skirted the truth and were extremely unfairly one-sided and misleading. And at the very least, that was an inappropriately simplified way to put things; the conflict is much more complex than that.

And when I said "I'll be back later with my intimidating combination of superior logic and common sense" I thought it was fairly obviously a lighthearted joke. Even if I did say that completely seriously (though I don't see how anyone could have thought that) I don't see how it would label me as a "spoiled brat." I guess I won't blame you if you feel it's necessary to scan my posts for nonoffensive statements like that and call me names as opposed to simply debating the issues. But I'm sorry if you were truly offended by that; I guess some people are more sensitive than others.

Now, considering your first point: You didn't really prove anything. Yes, Palestine was already occupied by Arabs, and yes, the Arabs opposed the Jews moving in; no one is disagreeing with that. But there was still no country of Palestine. The territory was ruled by Great Britain and it was up to them to move whoever they wanted there. You claim that the Jews don't deserve to live in Palestine because there was a country already there; are you saying that by that logic all immigration is illegal? The movement of Jews into Palestine was an immigration, not an invasion. Just as the United States or any country has the right to accept foreign immigrants, Great Britain had the right to accept Jewish immigrants.

Your second point: This one confused me even more. You never even mentioned, besides proved the existance of, a Palestinian government. As we have said Palestine was controlled by Great Britain, so unless you are claiming that Israel took over the British government, they simply didn't take over any governments at all.

And the "630,000-700,000 Palestinians who fled or were expelled from the areas that became Israel" mostly left as a result of the 1948 War, which occured after the state of Israel was created (not to mention that many of them left of their own free will), so their expulsion clearly wasn't a plan of the Israeli government to take control of the land. Yes, some people say it was a conspiracy by the Israeli government, but that's both untrue and insulting. The only forceful expulsion occured when Israeli soldiers kicked out the Arab inhabitants, and much of that was due to warfare and military opposition by said Arabs. None of it was under order of the Israeli government.

And I must respond to this particular sentence: "They also charmingly kept all of the land they won in the war despite it violating the original UN plans."

This is true. It is also true that the Arabs "charmingly" planned to capture and keep all of the land that had been given to Israel by the UN. That is, after they kicked out/killed every single Jew in said lands and drove them back into the sea. So yes, it's all very charming. Israel may have been wrong to keep those lands, but compared to what the Arabs did (or atleast planned to), it seems like a spectacularly minor point.

As for your third point: You proved that Israel fought the Arabs. I don't see how "fought" equals "waged war on." In most cases the Arabs directly started the conflict, with clear attacks on the Israelis. The prime example of this would obviously be the 1948-49 War, which you conveniently left out of your list.

And yes, there were plenty of cases where Israel attacked the Arabs first. However, in virtually all of these cases the Arabs had done something first against the Israelis to provoke the attacks. Israel never launched an assault completely out of the blue, because they felt like it. Were all of Israel's retaliatory acts appropriate? That is debatable, however it isn't debatable that the Arabs persistently caused conflict with the Israelis with the intent of "waging war" on them, as you will.

So, again. I'm sorry that I called you a liar, but what you said about Israel was (atleast) misleading, biased against the Israelis, and thus I found it offensive. You first point wasn't particularly offensive, I'm willing to debate whether or not all those Jews had the right to occupy an already occupied land (I personally don't think it was completely right, but considering all the factors involved it was necessary and thus right to do, and the deal wasn't as bad for the Arab occupants as they made it into).

Your second point was simply made up since there was no Palestinian country, and no Palestinian government for the Israelis to take over.

And your third point was the worst. It is clear that the Arabs are greatly opposed to the country of Israel, have almost constantly been making attacks on it with the goal of completely destroying it, and all of Israel's military action was in its own defence (though whether everything they did was appropriate or not is another topic I'm willing to debate, I don't think all of it was). But I frankly don't see how someone can come to the conclusion that Israel has "waged war on everyone around them." Indeed, the complete opposite is true.