Poll: Japanese or Western Mecha?

[A random person]

I don't get why people here seem to bow to Warhammer40k.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/reaver1.htm

I'm sorry everyone, but Western wins out every time.

And that's one of the reasons I don't.

The designs and ideas present in the Warhammer 40k background material, novels and the models themselves are exemplary of western science fiction as a whole. Japanese style Mechas always seem too far-fetched for me. A Gundam, while undoubtedly awesome, (I don't dispute that) always seems as though it would never be possible. However, the Mechs you find in Warhammer and in other western sci fi sources look as though at some point in the distant future, mankind really could be going to war in these magnificent peices of engineering.

As massively nerdy as all this sounds, I like the designs of both Japanese, over-blown-super-hero-costume-style mechas and the more western, vehicle-type mechas. I just like the western ones more.

Militant 40k nerds who say "HURR DURR WORHAMMER PWNS UR ASS EVERY TIME LOLOLOLOLOL NUB *thwack thwack thwack*" give the whole culture a bad name. (Yes I do realise that what I just said was hugely hippocritical, please disregard my original comment.)

Good point, though I have quite a few qualms about Warhammer40k mechs being practical. It's not really an engineering or finances thing (I'll let those slide since the factions are absurdly powerful), it's more of a combat practicality and leg thing. Things like Gundams (actually more like Arm Slaves or Knightmare frames, they'd have to be smaller) could be practical for urban combat and rougher terrain as their legs provide mobility advantages, but in the case of Warhammer40k mechs (not the anime-inspired Tau ones as someone else pointed out) the legs on what are otherwise tanks seem to be a bit pointless.

Of course, we can both agree that the "Warhammer40k pwns joo" fans suck, especially when they bash Gundams as flamboyant and impractical by comparing them to Warhammer40k; Warhammer40k mechs are both even more flamboyant (look at the decorations, they're hilariously lavish) and impractical (while Gundams aren't practical themselves, they're more doable than walking tanks taller than skyscrapers). And this isn't even getting into the "Japan sucks because we have Warhammer" 'tards.

Edit: Maybe I shouldn't have said combat practicality as Warhammer40k mechs aren't much better/worse than Gundams, I meant feature practicality.

I think what I meant by Practicality was actually that it would be more realistic not to have giant, steel, death machines doing great flips over one another and fighting with giant, steel, martial arts. I think it'd be much more likely in the future that we as a race will be more aligned to the 'Blast the crap out of the enemy from several kilometers away.' allignment than Gundam-style close-assault, fire-fight, energy blade alignment.

I think the decoration you're refering to is part of what makes western culture (or that of a hundred years ago) truly great. The decoration and inlay that you see on Warhammer vehicles is alot like the way the Victorians built decoration into wool-mills and steam engines, there's no need for it, but the builders felt the need to take extra pride in their work.

I think that it is unfair to compare Gundam suits with Warhammer Titans. Gundams are battlesuits whereas Titans and other 40k machines are vehicles. They are both large bipedal war-machines which kick ass for their entire working career, but at the end of the day, comparing them is like comparing cats and dogs. You'll always get massive differences in opinion on this sort of thing.

Western and japanese mechas are similar in theory, but the roles they fulfill are completely different, and people will like either one or the other for different reasons. Singularly Datarific struck gold when he started this thread, it's already run to 7 pages and it probably won't stop there.

I don't actually have problems with the decorations, I was just pointing out that both Gundams and Warhammer40k mechs have them since the topic of dumb 40k fans came up.

And you're actually right about the practicality, Warhammer mechs are more likely to exist at some point in time than Gundams are (of course, MechWarrior is far more likely than either). I was talking about how much of an advantage the legs served, since that's an important topic with mechs. My thought path went something like this: the advantage of mechs over tanks is their mobility. Japanese mechs are more focused on their mobility, as opposed to western mechs that are essentially tanks and defeat the purpose of having legs. Ergo, Japanese mechs are more practical as they have more reason to exist. I'll admit that "practical" wasn't the best word choice, however, and I was just talking about which has better reason to have legs and be a mech.

Yeah, the weird thing is that western mechs are more realistic than Japanese mechs but kinda defeat themselves by being tanks.

But yeah, they're both quite different: Japanese mechs are for closer combat (that's why they have greater mobility and fists) while Western mechs are more like tanks that shoot each other across a battlefield. For now I'll just continue to talk about mechs and stave off the aforementioned dumb 40k fans.

 

[Wicky_42]

*ka-snip*
I was talking about how much of an advantage the legs served, since that's an important topic with mechs. My thought path went something like this: the advantage of mechs over tanks is their mobility. Japanese mechs are more focused on their mobility, as opposed to western mechs that are essentially tanks and defeat the purpose of having legs. Ergo, Japanese mechs are more practical as they have more reason to exist. I'll admit that "practical" wasn't the best word choice, however, and I was just talking about which has better reason to have legs and be a mech.

But yeah, they're both quite different: Japanese mechs are for closer combat (that's why they have greater mobility and fists) while Western mechs are more like tanks that shoot each other across a battlefield. For now I'll just continue to talk about mechs and stave off the aforementioned dumb 40k fans.

By 'mobility', we're not just talking about being able to go magic fast or fly, or all those other traits that gundams love so much. On a basic level, legs rather than tracks means things like huge bomb craters, broken ground and the such like become less of a hazard. It also means that you'll probably be slower over the flat than a tank, and you can't cross soft ground as well.

I agree that 'practicality' was the wrong word for you to use - neither weapons system is relevant in modern warfare, as all would die to high altitude air/missile strikes. However, if we began to go down the route of bipedal weapons you would quickly see that in order to make a machine anything like as fast as a gundam it would have to be made out of something about as dense as a sponge - remember that anime is horrendously stylised, as is the action. I just watched an ep of gundam wing, and throughout a 5 min conversation in the middle of a fire-fight, not a single enemy mech managed to even target the two heroes. I think it's a case that perhaps the Gundams aren't that fast, it's just that everyone else SUCKS, lol.

I don't think melee is going to be practical again any time soon, not in a meaningful battlefield way, and not even with mechs - at least, not without stylising RL with anime clichés and equipping them with plot armour. Same reason that fighters don't dogfight in real life, despite being so fast - offense > defense, missile beats dodging.

 

[Captain Pancake]

Mechassault 2 was one of the best games I've played. So WESTERN!

 

[rokkolpo]

i hate mechs in general.

 

[A random person]

*ka-snip*
I was talking about how much of an advantage the legs served, since that's an important topic with mechs. My thought path went something like this: the advantage of mechs over tanks is their mobility. Japanese mechs are more focused on their mobility, as opposed to western mechs that are essentially tanks and defeat the purpose of having legs. Ergo, Japanese mechs are more practical as they have more reason to exist. I'll admit that "practical" wasn't the best word choice, however, and I was just talking about which has better reason to have legs and be a mech.

But yeah, they're both quite different: Japanese mechs are for closer combat (that's why they have greater mobility and fists) while Western mechs are more like tanks that shoot each other across a battlefield. For now I'll just continue to talk about mechs and stave off the aforementioned dumb 40k fans.

By 'mobility', we're not just talking about being able to go magic fast or fly, or all those other traits that gundams love so much. On a basic level, legs rather than tracks means things like huge bomb craters, broken ground and the such like become less of a hazard. It also means that you'll probably be slower over the flat than a tank, and you can't cross soft ground as well.

I agree that 'practicality' was the wrong word for you to use - neither weapons system is relevant in modern warfare, as all would die to high altitude air/missile strikes. However, if we began to go down the route of bipedal weapons you would quickly see that in order to make a machine anything like as fast as a gundam it would have to be made out of something about as dense as a sponge - remember that anime is horrendously stylised, as is the action. I just watched an ep of gundam wing, and throughout a 5 min conversation in the middle of a fire-fight, not a single enemy mech managed to even target the two heroes. I think it's a case that perhaps the Gundams aren't that fast, it's just that everyone else SUCKS, lol.

I don't think melee is going to be practical again any time soon, not in a meaningful battlefield way, and not even with mechs - at least, not without stylising RL with anime clichés and equipping them with plot armour. Same reason that fighters don't dogfight in real life, despite being so fast - offense > defense, missile beats dodging.

Yeah, when I was thinking of Japanese mechs that would be more mobile I was thinking of Arm Slaves or Knightmare Frames, and I was thinking of mobility in an urban setting or on tougher terrain since a tank would be better in a flat place. Gundams would end up leaving ground damage and aren't my idea of a Japanese style mech that could even approach practicality (the only ones that do are smaller).

Of course, you're right about them being impractical: Japanese mechs would, save maybe some smaller kinds, require ridiculous materials and technology, and western mechs that are tanks on legs are self-defeating since the only reason to make a mech instead of a tank would be mobility.

 

[lvl9000_woot]

Japanese.

Agreed.

(Gundam, Zone of the Enders, and Escaflowne)

 

[Wintermoot]

IDK both are awesome (with the exception of the models from the new transformers movie wich are WAY too complicated) so I geus both have charms

 

[Ganthrinor]

My idea of Mecha is still the BattleTech BattleMechs.

You can keep your silly energy blades and "mobile suit" bruhaha along with your impossibly agile movements.

Now THAT'S Mecha.

 

[John Funk]

None of the Western mechas posted in this thread have done anything to change the fact that for the most part, Western mecha combat is dull as all hell. It's as thrilling as watching two tanks exchanging fire.

They look blocky and ugly, they're no more practical than their Eastern counterparts (let's face it, ALL mecha are inherently impractical), and their fights are boring. Oh, and the vast majority of Western design aesthetic was originally taken from Japan.

I don't know, it seems just so clear-cut to me.

And besides, nobody's posted any Western mecha combat half as cool as the final battle of Gundam 00 I linked a page or two back

 

[dekkarax]

None of the Western mechas posted in this thread have done anything to change the fact that for the most part, Western mecha combat is dull as all hell. It's as thrilling as watching two tanks exchanging fire.

They look blocky and ugly, they're no more practical than their Eastern counterparts (let's face it, ALL mecha are inherently impractical), and their fights are boring. Oh, and the vast majority of Western design aesthetic was originally taken from Japan.

I don't know, it seems just so clear-cut to me.

Spoiler

Designed for fast assault and crowd control.

It turns into a hovercar
Also, Heavy Gear is a good example to the contrary as well (though they were based on Eastern ones).

 

[Rafe]

Japanese, I can't think of any good specific Western designs.

 

[Xom]

The concept of combat mecha as a whole is Japanese, you say?

 

[John Funk]

None of the Western mechas posted in this thread have done anything to change the fact that for the most part, Western mecha combat is dull as all hell. It's as thrilling as watching two tanks exchanging fire.

They look blocky and ugly, they're no more practical than their Eastern counterparts (let's face it, ALL mecha are inherently impractical), and their fights are boring. Oh, and the vast majority of Western design aesthetic was originally taken from Japan.

I don't know, it seems just so clear-cut to me.

Spoiler

Designed for fast assault and crowd control.

It turns into a hovercar
Also, Heavy Gear is a good example to the contrary as well (though they were based on Eastern ones).

Image doesn't work, sorry. Rehost on imageshack?

And from what I've seen of Heavy Gear they still seem largely like the more slow and plodding Western mecha. I'll admit I'm not familiar with the franchise, so I could be wrong.

 

[RYjet911]

As Western mechs consist of Space Marine Dreadnoughts and ANYTHING from Mechwarrior series, and at a stretch Metal Gear REX since it's painfully obvious just how much Western influence there was in its design, Western mechs win automatically.

 

[Xom]

None of the Western mechas posted in this thread have done anything to change the fact that for the most part, Western mecha combat is dull as all hell. It's as thrilling as watching two tanks exchanging fire.

They look blocky and ugly, they're no more practical than their Eastern counterparts (let's face it, ALL mecha are inherently impractical), and their fights are boring. Oh, and the vast majority of Western design aesthetic was originally taken from Japan.

I don't know, it seems just so clear-cut to me.

And besides, nobody's posted any Western mecha combat half as cool as the final battle of Gundam 00 I linked a page or two back

But the exact same fight could have been done by two Jedi with jetpacks and a bunch of fancy motion lines. Mechwarrior-style mecha actually fight like giant robots would, while the gundams are only robots for the sake of the rule of cool, otherwise they could have just been oversized Power Rangers and no one would be able to tell the difference.

 

[Raykuza]

If Transformers counts as mecha then I'd say western. <3 Beast Wars