Poll: Japanese or Western Mecha?

[Ollie Barder]

Nothing in Western mecha comes close to the brilliance of Ichiro Itano's mecha choreography.

 

[Xom]

I don't think this discussion can go on very efficiently because no one ever reads the whole thread before posting, so any points we might make are moot.

 

[dillirgaf]

The Heavy Gear cartoon series was terrible compared to the stories of the games.

 

[Enzeru92]

We all know gundams are going to rule the world come on

 

[Spineyguy]

I don't actually have problems with the decorations, I was just pointing out that both Gundams and Warhammer40k mechs have them since the topic of dumb 40k fans came up.

And you're actually right about the practicality, Warhammer mechs are more likely to exist at some point in time than Gundams are (of course, MechWarrior is far more likely than either). I was talking about how much of an advantage the legs served, since that's an important topic with mechs. My thought path went something like this: the advantage of mechs over tanks is their mobility. Japanese mechs are more focused on their mobility, as opposed to western mechs that are essentially tanks and defeat the purpose of having legs. Ergo, Japanese mechs are more practical as they have more reason to exist. I'll admit that "practical" wasn't the best word choice, however, and I was just talking about which has better reason to have legs and be a mech.

Yeah, the weird thing is that western mechs are more realistic than Japanese mechs but kinda defeat themselves by being tanks.

But yeah, they're both quite different: Japanese mechs are for closer combat (that's why they have greater mobility and fists) while Western mechs are more like tanks that shoot each other across a battlefield. For now I'll just continue to talk about mechs and stave off the aforementioned dumb 40k fans.

I think the reason for having legs on a Western mech is probably something to do with height and tactical advantage. You see a Titan marching toward you across the battlefield you're more likely to crap yourself than if you see a Gundam screaming through the sky at a million miles per hour.

In the same way that Western mechs are self-defeatist by being tanks with legs, Japanese mechs are just bipedal fighter-jets. Western mechs may be slow and impractical and pretentious, but you can't argue that they're not intimidating.

Also, size is a big factor in this. The Titans of warhammer get past the issue of soft or uneven ground by being a million feet tall and made of a fictitious metal. Gundams definately look more majestic, but Western mechs have a sort of 'miracle of engineering' feel to them. Like they probably shouldn't be able to support their own weight or even move, they are silly and over decorated and impractical and sometimes downright exaggerated (Imperator Titan anyone?) but it's this low level of realism that gives them their charm.

 

[Ollie Barder]

Yeah, the weird thing is that western mechs are more realistic than Japanese mechs but kinda defeat themselves by being tanks.

There is no such thing as a "Western" mecha, they're derivative of Japanese designs.

You see a Titan marching toward you across the battlefield you're more likely to crap yourself than if you see a Gundam screaming through the sky at a million miles per hour.

I'm pretty sure there was a sizeable amount of crappage in the cockpits of those ground pounders.

In any case, Titan scaled mecha are almost always useless against smaller and nimbler mecha. Shirow always made an excellent case for this in his Ghost in the Shell manga, as having something of that scale reduces it's armor capacity so they only way to make it viable is to make it fast. This is why many of Ryosuke Takahashi's series stray from his Dougram (Battletech) roots and towards much smaller and far quicker mecha (such as VOTOMS, Layzner and Gasaraki). The funny aspect to all this is that Western sources copied Takahashi's Dougram, literally in the case of Battletech, but didn't evolve along with him.

The rationale behind this is quite sound and forms the backbone of much of the real robot pantheon in mecha.

 

[dekkarax]

Yeah, the weird thing is that western mechs are more realistic than Japanese mechs but kinda defeat themselves by being tanks.

There is no such thing as a "Western" mecha, they're derivative of Japanese designs.

I think you might have forgotten one of the original (if not the) original mechs, which was in a British book

Though, yes, lots of mechs have been inspired by Japanese designs, the concept (unless someone can correct me) was "western"

 

[CerealKiller]

Fair point, though that's partly why I quoted you.

I guessed as much, I was just hassling you a bit.

I do have one question though, why is it people automatically think of gundams when japanese mechs are mentioned?

I always think of this first:

Oh yes.

Perfection.

 

[John Funk]

Also, size is a big factor in this. The Titans of warhammer get past the issue of soft or uneven ground by being a million feet tall and made of a fictitious metal.

Fictitious metals? Not really. Most mechs are iron, steel, titanium, and aluminum. Ferro-fibrous armor is essentially "kevlar" made from iron fiber, the only one not really quantified is Endo-Steel, which could be any of the hundreds of steel alloys we have today. And the myomer fiber "muscle" that works the limbs is actually based on a real product that has been in development for years, and seen recent use in artificial limbs and robotics. The only real "sci-fi" element of Battletech was the power source, portable fusion engines, which too are in development.

That's what I liked most about Battletech compared to other Western and Japanese mecha 'verses. Battletech was well grounded in science. Mechs could not break the laws of physics, instead, physics usually snuck up from behind to give Mechwarriors a swift kick in the ass. No million-missle launchers, no force shields, no limitless flight with plot-convenient times for fuel to actually run out, and no moving 85-ton machines with more agility than an Olympic gymnast. My favorite part is the reality of weaponry, that given enough time, enough bullets, and some luck, even a machinegun can fell the biggest Mechs ever made; there is no such thing as invulnerable/unbeatable.

Spoiler: D.F.A.

Hate to break it to you man, but a bipedal mecha is already by its very definition breaking the laws of physics.

Judging mecha based on realism feels counterproductive, because none of them are realistic at all. It's like judging a cake contest based on how healthy it is.

 

[Ollie Barder]

I think you might have forgotten one of the original (if not the) original mechs, which was in a British book

Though, yes, lots of mechs have been inspired by Japanese designs, the concept (unless someone can correct me) was "western"

The tripods in War of the Worlds are indeed one of the first type of mecha but it's a moot point as contemporary mecha designs are predominantly bipedal. These newer bipedal designs in the West are actually derived from far earlier Japanese efforts. When people say they prefer the blockier "Western" aesthetic seen in Battletech et al, what they are actually saying is that they like dated mid-70's Kunio Ogawara designs from Dougram.

Thanks for ruining my work shirt. I start to drool any time I see Armored Core.
[font color=gray](Also, I'm one of the lucky fuckers who has the original PSX game and Project Phantasma)[/font]

Good stuff, you'll like these videos then (it's me playing in the videos in case you're wondering)...




I finished the games without Human Plus and Overweight too (for proper versus play) but the singleplayer missions are more fun when you have the abilities activated. Did you play the newer games at all?

 

[Ollie Barder]

Hate to break it to you man, but a bipedal mecha is already by its very definition breaking the laws of physics.

Judging mecha based on realism feels counterproductive, because none of them are realistic at all. It's like judging a cake contest based on how healthy it is.

Indeed, mecha isn't realistic at all and bringing that to this discussion reeks of a straw man gambit. There are "real" types of mecha but this is not to be confused with an attempt at realism, more about giving a more rationale set of parameters for the mecha to operate within. So an Armored Trooper in VOTOMs is a real robot based off the rules that dictate how fragile it is, not how realistic it is (as it uses practically magical fluid that acts as type of hydraulic muscle).

 

[lodo_bear]

Yeah, the weird thing is that western mechs are more realistic than Japanese mechs but kinda defeat themselves by being tanks.

There is no such thing as a "Western" mecha, they're derivative of Japanese designs.

I think you might have forgotten one of the original (if not the) original mechs, which was in a British book

Though, yes, lots of mechs have been inspired by Japanese designs, the concept (unless someone can correct me) was "western"

Okay, this does it. This discussion can at last achieve a peaceful conclusion. H.G. Wells won! We can all go home now.

Seriously, the tripods were fearsome, and if you take into account Orson Welles's broadcast of the book, we can say for certain that no mech has ever caused so much real terror as the Martian tripods.

 

[Spineyguy]

Fictitious metals? Not really. Most mechs are iron, steel, titanium, and aluminum. Ferro-fibrous armor is essentially "kevlar" made from iron fiber, the only one not really quantified is Endo-Steel, which could be any of the hundreds of steel alloys we have today. And the myomer fiber "muscle" that works the limbs is actually based on a real product that has been in development for years, and seen recent use in artificial limbs and robotics. The only real "sci-fi" element of Battletech was the power source, portable fusion engines, which too are in development.

That's what I liked most about Battletech compared to other Western and Japanese mecha 'verses. Battletech was well grounded in science. Mechs could not break the laws of physics, instead, physics usually snuck up from behind to give Mechwarriors a swift kick in the ass. No million-missle launchers, no force shields, no limitless flight with plot-convenient times for fuel to actually run out, and no moving 85-ton machines with more agility than an Olympic gymnast. My favorite part is the reality of weaponry, that given enough time, enough bullets, and some luck, even a machinegun can fell the biggest Mechs ever made; there is no such thing as invulnerable/unbeatable.

Ceramite is a fictitious metal/ceramic alloy that the Adeptus Mechanicus use for virtually everything.

I agree that Power source is a big factor in deciding the possibility of a mech. Titans use Plasma reactors which produce the same energy as a small sun, this energy is then either vented (there's alot of excess to allow for a multitude of weapons sysytems, movement speeds, Void sheilds, etc.) or routed as per the commands of the Princeps and his Moderati.

Nothing compares to the Steam Mechs of yore.

 

[Rubyiris]

Japan came up with ZOE and Armored Core, therefore wins by default.