Poll: Lara and the Tomb raider controversy

[aestu]

Tomb Raider games suck.

Lara Croft was created as a sex symbol to appeal to 15-year-old boys obsessed with guns, huge mammaries, and British accents.

Feminists trying to remake Lara Croft is like Ashcroft putting a tarp on the Statute of Justice.

 

[aestu]

When you can do half the shit she does in the trailer alone, then maybe you can call her fragile.

You do realize that Lara Croft is a FICTIONAL CHARACTER, and anything she does that bears any resemblance to plausible reality is coincidental, right?

This is the entire feminist problem. They try to change fantasies based on willful suspension of disbelief, into fantasies based on their own denial of reality.

 

[LisaB1138]

It's sexist because they think that a male audience can't relate to a strong female character and they have to make 'protecting' her the main focus.

Also that Lara Croft was a great power fantasy for women and now she has been reduced to being beaten up for the benefit of the male audience.

They would never do it with a male character though because apparently male characters don't have to go through a traumatic experience to be tough...

I agree. I never played Tomb Raider because I wanted to watch Lara suffer and fail.

I loved Lara because she wasn't a Victim, a Vixen or a Sidekick. She was a (an anti-) hero playing on her own terms. She was mature, seasoned, and beyond my understanding. She was . . . cool. She had style.

I admit I have problems with this "trauma makes Lara tough." One, it's simply not how it works in life. Trauma is called "trauma" for a reason. People don't enjoy it, and neither do they want to re-create it. Two, as a woman I resent the idea that a woman must be undergo some horrible event to "toughen up." You're right in that we'll ever see an "origins" story for Nathan Drake where he undergoes some trauma that makes him realize he loves to treasure hunt.

Lara was already "hard" and "tough" and "like to raid tombs". I really fail to see how we're gaining anything we didn't already have without tedious over-explanation that removes any and all mystery and charm Lara had.

 

[Treblaine]

snip

Please tell me of a male game character who has as much stuff happen to him on screen as we have seen in the Tomb Raider trailers.

Why can't we just accept Lara as she is, a tough woman.

"as much stuff happen to him" as an attempted rape? Worse than that.

Naked Snake (in Metal Gear Solid 3)
Electrocuted till he pisses his pants, beaten to an unrecognisable pulp, eyeball destroyed, then shot in the groin.

Kane and Lynch (in Kane and Lynch 2)
Prolonged torture where they are tied naked to chairs and have every inch of their body slashed with Stanley knives.

Live dismemberment in Quake 4:

Why can't you accept that rape and other horrific suffering can be a part of a narrative? You need to accept this is not sexism or misogyny and more than the above examples are misanthropy.

Of course we can accept Lara as a tough woman, we have accepted that for the past 16 years since here début in 1996. This is jsut a new an different threat rather than an ancient trap or shooting a ravenous tiger. This is not about making her tough, this is about demonstrating her toughness in a way other than shooting endangered species.

Why do you have this idea that even an attempted rape simply cannot happen to her?

 

[Treblaine]

It's sexist because they think that a male audience can't relate to a strong female character and they have to make 'protecting' her the main focus.

Also that Lara Croft was a great power fantasy for women and now she has been reduced to being beaten up for the benefit of the male audience.

They would never do it with a male character though because apparently male characters don't have to go through a traumatic experience to be tough...

I agree. I never played Tomb Raider because I wanted to watch Lara suffer and fail.

I loved Lara because she wasn't a Victim, a Vixen or a Sidekick. She was a (an anti-) hero playing on her own terms. She was mature, seasoned, and beyond my understanding. She was . . . cool. She had style.

I admit I have problems with this "trauma makes Lara tough." One, it's simply not how it works in life. Trauma is called "trauma" for a reason. People don't enjoy it, and neither do they want to re-create it. Two, as a woman I resent the idea that a woman must be undergo some horrible event to "toughen up." You're right in that we'll ever see an "origins" story for Nathan Drake where he undergoes some trauma that makes him realize he loves to treasure hunt.

Lara was already "hard" and "tough" and "like to raid tombs". I really fail to see how we're gaining anything we didn't already have without tedious over-explanation that removes any and all mystery and charm Lara had.

Lara's back story has ALWAYS been that when she was young she lost here parents in an accident and then had to survive alone in the wilderness.

Whether this survival made her tough, or her toughness made her survive, the result is the same: she survived, she had what it took to survive either making it or finding it within her that was always there. Lara wasn't a victim there and she isn't a victim in the latest game's trailer, she is again a survivor.

 

[mitchell271]

It's not really sexist as it is a little weird. She's in an Amazon (I think) forest and she becomes quite the badass, but she's still treated like a sex symbol. I know it's Laura Croft but still. She's almost raped, whenever she takes a hit it sounds like moaning as if she were having sex (I'm not the only one who thinks that, right?) but she does grow to be an impressively fleshed out character, at least from what I've seen so far.

All in all, sexist, not really. Different from what I was expecting, yes.

 

[aestu]

It's sexist because they think that a male audience can't relate to a strong female character and they have to make 'protecting' her the main focus.

Men are evil pigs. Got it.

Can I say that women can't relate to tough games because they're too vulnerable? No?

Also that Lara Croft was a great power fantasy for women and now she has been reduced to being beaten up for the benefit of the male audience.

Lara Croft was a pair of tits created for the benefit of 15-year-old boys.
This is revisionist history.

They would never do it with a male character though because apparently male characters don't have to go through a traumatic experience to be tough...

This is so obviously untrue that it does not even need contrary proof. Indeed, I would not even know where to begin, as I could easily name dozens of such male characters that would disprove your point.

The only reason to even say this is because of hatred of men.

I agree. I never played Tomb Raider because I wanted to watch Lara suffer and fail.

Considering that would mean you would "Game Over", that would indeed be quite strange.

I loved Lara because she wasn't a Victim, a Vixen or a Sidekick. She was a (an anti-) hero playing on her own terms. She was mature, seasoned, and beyond my understanding. She was . . . cool. She had style.

Lara Croft is and was a pair of tits.

I admit I have problems with this "trauma makes Lara tough." One, it's simply not how it works in life.

It's absolutely how it works.

Feminists try to skew every discussion towards RAPE. It's as absurd as turning any and every discussion towards PTSD.

No one comes out of the womb strong. Adversity is what makes a strong person.

And there is no adversity without failure. If someone has never failed, it is not because they are are strong, it is because they are too cowardly and pathetic to face adversity. Such is the basis of the Mary Sue.

Feminists try to invert this fact, arguing that privilege and being protected from anything and everything makes people stronger, in the service of their own hate-based ideology that seeks to justify giving outrageous entitlements to people based on their gender, despite the fact that most of the beneficiaries (white women) have it better than anyone else in the history of the entire world.

 

[kasperbbs]

No. It's realistic. And i wouldn't mind seeing more of this sort of stuff in games, 'shoot all that moves and be the hero' scenario is getting kind of dull. On that note i'd like to congratulate Spec Ops. I really liked what they did with the story, it wasn't perfect, but it was different at least.

 

[aestu]

and I wouldn't call feminism hate based.

Take any of the comments made about men, male nature, the male sex, in this thread or most others, and replace "male" or "men" with "black" or "female", then show them to a disinterested third party.

 

[Treblaine]

Tomb Raider games suck.

Lara Croft was created as a sex symbol to appeal to 15-year-old boys obsessed with guns, huge mammaries, and British accents.

Feminists trying to remake Lara Croft is like Ashcroft putting a tarp on the Statute of Justice.

Lara Croft was a sex symbol more like James Bond than all the other glazed pin up models that had come before. Lara was special because unlike all the submissive and passive supermodels that were the sex symbols before her she was powerful, assertive and in control. Even when she lounged she was like a panther waiting for a prey. She never took any submissive role in a relationship in any of the depictions, that made her something very special for the mid 90's.

Very much like Bond or Sherlock Holmes, she was distinguished, with high class taste, dry English wit and an imperialistic approach to adventure.

She was a distinctly female character where she took on a sense of agency like almost no game nor film had ever done before. Almost no other book, film nor game has so singularly focused on one female character and her wants and desires, not her interacting and balancing the wants and desires or other people. It was remarkable for her independence in almost everything and when it came to other characters she was assertive and unwavering in her goals. Breaking into a US Military base or a London banking complex to get what she wanted.

Before Trinity, before Beatrix Kiddo, before Salander, there was Lara Croft.

 

[Darthbawls77]

It's sexist because they think that a male audience can't relate to a strong female character and they have to make 'protecting' her the main focus.

Also that Lara Croft was a great power fantasy for women and now she has been reduced to being beaten up for the benefit of the male audience.

It's hard to judge until the game comes out though.

Funny thing is: if it was young Nate nobody would complain about it being sexist. Well, they would complain that it was Nate and not a new female character. Nobody would even complain about the attempted rape.

I say that they are doing a fine job. I will buy this game. Its a hard concept to show of in a single trailer or demo, because the changes in her character will be very gradual.

They would never do it with a male character though because apparently male characters don't have to go through a traumatic experience to be tough...

I totally agree. Keep in mind this is a young Lara. I think they wanted to show a more frail Lara but only too build her up to the hero we know of today. I saw her using the bow and kicking butt in the trailer too but not many mention this. We all just have to wait for the game to come out before saying anything is truly wrong or right. But I do agree that the guy who talked about the game made it sound alittle sexist for sure but I really doubt the story writers and art and production crew feel the same way I think he just fucked up big time lol.

 

[TheDutchin]

it's not sexist, but it IS a very very stupid move.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/features/9766-The-R-Word
I think that that article sums up my feelings on it. You can't throw something like rape into a game as "character building" because a) It will not offend, but actually mentally wound people who have gone through the experience (read the article, it describes that better) and b) Being raped isn't character building, it's character destroying. You don't get better, ever, after you've been raped, you don't become a stronger person later on because of the experience. It is a damaging experience that you never recover from, so "building" Lara like that just shows the depth of their ignorance on the topic.

 

[Able Seacat]

it's not sexist, but it IS a very very stupid move.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/features/9766-The-R-Word
I think that that article sums up my feelings on it. You can't throw something like rape into a game as "character building" because a) It will not offend, but actually mentally wound people who have gone through the experience (read the article, it describes that better) and b) Being raped isn't character building, it's character destroying. You don't get better, ever, after you've been raped, you don't become a stronger person later on because of the experience. It is a damaging experience that you never recover from, so "building" Lara like that just shows the depth of their ignorance on the topic.

But to be fair, she doesn't actually get raped it is only implied for a brief moment. Though you are right that doesn't stop victims from having 'triggers'. Hopefully when the game is released it won't be so bad.

 

[Treblaine]

and I wouldn't call feminism hate based.

Take any of the comments made about men, male nature, the male sex, in this thread or most others, and replace "male" or "men" with "black" or "female", then show them to a disinterested third party.

Feminism don't say anything about men, feminism by definition is to do with the treatment, depiction and nature of women.

Your "man hate" is mostly imaginary, concocted from how a few people her on taking a feminist stance didn't consider other perspectives, but that is not hate.

Lara Croft is and was a pair of tits.

You have problems if that is all you see.

 

[Hjalmar Fryklund]

and I wouldn't call feminism hate based.

Take any of the comments made about men, male nature, the male sex, in this thread or most others, and replace "male" or "men" with "black" or "female", then show them to a disinterested third party.

Feminism don't say anything about men, feminism by definition is to do with the treatment, depiction and nature of women.

Your "man hate" is mostly imaginary, concocted from how a few people her on taking a feminist stance didn't consider other perspectives, but that is not hate.

Lara Croft is and was a pair of tits.

You have problems if that is all you see.

If this is NOT the first time you are dealing with aestu then disregard the following.

I have said this in another thread and I will repeat myself here.

I would recommend you to not even bother to reason with aestu. His misogynist drivel deserves only mockery.

For some reference, here is a couple of his previous rants.

Women want to be sex objects.

Many women deny it because the equality nonsense is at odds with lording one's sex over others, but the reality is that this drive underscores much of female behavior. When men spend as much on clothes, shoes, surgery, Botox, and shampoo as women, then we can say that men are as interested in being sex objects as women.

But the truth is, every woman wants to be beautiful, to be adored, to have legions of handsome single men thinking of her every moment.

And until the media, and society at large, wakes up and remembers human nature before the discourse got polluted with this political nonsense, media will continue to be an irrelevant mess, including video games.

The carnal aspect is superficial. No one wants a flighty or unstable woman accustomed to using men, or a woman who spent her best years with other men, as a wife or mother.

 

[Treblaine]

it's not sexist, but it IS a very very stupid move.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/features/9766-The-R-Word
I think that that article sums up my feelings on it. You can't throw something like rape into a game as "character building" because a) It will not offend, but actually mentally wound people who have gone through the experience (read the article, it describes that better) and b) Being raped isn't character building, it's character destroying. You don't get better, ever, after you've been raped, you don't become a stronger person later on because of the experience. It is a damaging experience that you never recover from, so "building" Lara like that just shows the depth of their ignorance on the topic.

Sorry, but THIS VERY DISCUSSION would be a trigger, and that article as well would be a trigger... so should be censored?

This is the problem with even self-censorship to stop ever saying anything that might affect anyone, when the reasonable thing to go is to give fair warning and leave it up to them if they are ever ready to be exposed to it. It's like people sensitive to photo-epileptic seizures, you can warn them but not eliminate all frame flicker effects from everywhere.

"Being raped isn't character building, it's character destroying."

Well that is utterly damning of Lisbeth Salander's character in the Millenium Trilogy, somehow because she was raped she is then no longer a character in her own story. Or that Marcellus Wallace loses all characteristics after being raped.

Nonsense, you are playing word games conflating two different uses of the term "character". (1) character building as in storytelling with a real, believable, interesting, complex and sentient character, then (2) character as in a sense of will and confidence you'd use in describing real people.

 

[Hjalmar Fryklund]

I figured as much, and apparently a fool as well who has not the most basic understanding of how other people think. So entirely selfish to think that because women try to look a certain way, and he likes that, he stupidly assumes that is because they want to please him and be sex objects for him.

Narcissism in the extreme. And he's barely been here a week... under this account name at least. May mod justice be swift and merciless.

I agree. Well put, kompis.

 

[aestu]

Feminism don't say anything about men, feminism by definition is to do with the treatment, depiction and nature of women.

Feminism says quite a bit about men, amongst them that they created all that is in opposition to the tenets of feminism. Were it not so, the movement would vacillate.

Lara Croft is and was a pair of tits.

You have problems if that is all you see.

Why? What am I supposed to see? What was the audience supposed to see?

Who are you to pass judgement on whether or not my opinion is a "problem"?
What makes your opinion so much more valid?

 

[aestu]

I figured as much, and apparently a fool as well who has not the most basic understanding of how other people think. So entirely selfish to think that because women try to look a certain way, and he likes that, he stupidly assumes that is because they want to please him and be sex objects for him

Lara Croft is a fictional character. She's not real. She's not "trying" to do anything.
You realize that, right?

As for real women...maybe they do want to please men...even me...what's wrong with that? Personally, I like sexually pleasing a woman. It's satisfying for both of us. Does that make me a bad person? What about a woman who likes being pleasing to men? Does that make her a bad woman?

Who is really the judgemental bigot here? The one who accepts others right to live as they please, or the one who passes judgement on what others may or may not want to do - who says it's wrong to be pleasing to the opposite gender?