Poll: Lara and the Tomb raider controversy

[KRAKENDIE]

But I can contest that the assertion that that is what "realistically might happen to a woman". That is where the sexism is, if anywhere. Realistically, it could happen to anyone, male or female.

Could. Not likely to.

What aren't you getting? Women in media are more likely to get raped because women in real life are more likely to get raped. You can say it happens because 'duh, she's a woman,' because rapists entire reason for doing it IN REAL LIFE is 'well duh, she's a woman.'

...

Why is this suddenly a problem because it shows up in a game? Woman and yes, on occasion, men, get raped in books and films. What's the point of raging about it occuring in a game? I don't understaaaaaaand.
Too tired. Going to bed. Will continue discussion tomorrow.

If we're going to go based on the "likelihood", then the ratio of male protagonists in dangerous places to female protagonists in dangerous places of the course of video game history being about 100:1 should mean men in video games have a significantly higher chance. Don't invoke environmental risk and statistics and then ignore the fact that women are vastly outnumbered in video games, and yet one of those few women is one of few attempted rape victims in video games, none of whom are male. I

It isn't suddenly a problem. Maybe you should get out more. It's being talked about in video games because this generation is the first wherein females are a truly considerable presence in the audience, but more so, because this generation of video games is by far the most guilty of boundless violent fetishism. But this has been on the lips and minds of connected people in our culture for years.

 

[KRAKENDIE]

For real?

ITS THE EXACT SAME SHIT AS MAFIA II?!?! WHAT THE FUCK IS EVERYONE BITCHING ABOUT?

The issue is that the game's developers' explanation of the intent was telling of some possibly sexist trends in the gaming industry. These incidents are just points of departure for discussions about the culture of the industry's customers. Not accepting that is asking censorship pigs and the delta force to come in and bring on the second coming of the Hayes Code.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

For real?

ITS THE EXACT SAME SHIT AS MAFIA II?!?! WHAT THE FUCK IS EVERYONE BITCHING ABOUT?

The issue is that the game's developers' explanation of the intent was telling of some possibly sexist trends in the gaming industry. These incidents are just points of departure for discussions about the culture of the industry's customers. Not accepting that is asking censorship pigs and the delta force to come in and bring on the second coming of the Hayes Code.

Yeah okay that makesense but...

c'mon fucking aye dude, I just watched the trailer. This isn't fucking Rapelay and it's not like every enemy in the game is some would be rapist chasing Laura like a zombie with his pants around his ankles. For fucks sakes.

 

[KRAKENDIE]

For real?

ITS THE EXACT SAME SHIT AS MAFIA II?!?! WHAT THE FUCK IS EVERYONE BITCHING ABOUT?

The issue is that the game's developers' explanation of the intent was telling of some possibly sexist trends in the gaming industry. These incidents are just points of departure for discussions about the culture of the industry's customers. Not accepting that is asking censorship pigs and the delta force to come in and bring on the second coming of the Hayes Code.

Yeah okay that makesense but...

c'mon fucking aye dude, I just watched the trailer. This isn't fucking Rapelay and it's not like every enemy in the game is some would be rapist chasing Laura like a zombie with his pants around his ankles. For fucks sakes.

My previous post explains why the severity of the rape or attempted rape hardly matters because the conversation is about much more than this trailer. It's a logical fallacy to suggest that unless rape is part of a game's design, that it is not worth addressing.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

For real?

ITS THE EXACT SAME SHIT AS MAFIA II?!?! WHAT THE FUCK IS EVERYONE BITCHING ABOUT?

The issue is that the game's developers' explanation of the intent was telling of some possibly sexist trends in the gaming industry. These incidents are just points of departure for discussions about the culture of the industry's customers. Not accepting that is asking censorship pigs and the delta force to come in and bring on the second coming of the Hayes Code.

Yeah okay that makesense but...

c'mon fucking aye dude, I just watched the trailer. This isn't fucking Rapelay and it's not like every enemy in the game is some would be rapist chasing Laura like a zombie with his pants around his ankles. For fucks sakes.

My previous post explains why the severity of the rape or attempted rape hardly matters because the conversation is about much more than this trailer. It's a logical fallacy to suggest that unless rape is part of a game's design, that it is not worth addressing.

Okay okay, let me go at from this angle...

The fuck is all this discussion sprouting off coming from a trailer of the Laura Croft game and not Mafia II?

 

[Lilani]

I was pretty ambivalent about it before I read that R word article. I still feel like we won't know anything about how well the rape thing plays out until the game actually comes out, and I still feel it could work narratively if it doesn't get too far into the...process. I think getting her into the general situation could work, to where it's a threat and it's pretty clear what they want, but if they get too graphic or play it up too much it will easily crumble.

From what I've read so far, I feel like they are really trying to get a character out of Lara, and I like the character so far. I feel like they have very poorly worded it up to this point, especially with the whole "you'll want to protect her" thing [http://newgameperspectives.wordpress.com/], but I think they're definitely trying a lot harder than other games to get a deep female character, so we'll just have to see.

 

[KRAKENDIE]

For real?

ITS THE EXACT SAME SHIT AS MAFIA II?!?! WHAT THE FUCK IS EVERYONE BITCHING ABOUT?

The issue is that the game's developers' explanation of the intent was telling of some possibly sexist trends in the gaming industry. These incidents are just points of departure for discussions about the culture of the industry's customers. Not accepting that is asking censorship pigs and the delta force to come in and bring on the second coming of the Hayes Code.

Yeah okay that makesense but...

c'mon fucking aye dude, I just watched the trailer. This isn't fucking Rapelay and it's not like every enemy in the game is some would be rapist chasing Laura like a zombie with his pants around his ankles. For fucks sakes.

My previous post explains why the severity of the rape or attempted rape hardly matters because the conversation is about much more than this trailer. It's a logical fallacy to suggest that unless rape is part of a game's design, that it is not worth addressing.

Okay okay, let me go at from this angle...

The fuck is all this discussion sprouting off coming from a trailer of the Laura Croft game and not Mafia II?

Lara Croft is a video game icon, and arguably the first considerable response to the objectification of women in video games. She is a symbol as much as a character. And Mafia II was hardly anywhere near as publicized, nor defended.

 

[Scorpid]

I disapprove of any complaints that are directed at removing options from a story tellers tool box. As much as that 'R' word article was right about rape being a touchy subject it doesn't mean it shouldn't be approached at all. There are games out there about Nazi's, in Company of Heros you can play as the German SS (though they're called panzergrandiers). Rape, Murder, Nazi's are all touchy subjects but we can't not talk about them because of the fact it will understandably hurt someones feelings. Stories are most valuable when they're told to relate experiences, ficticious or otherwise, to people that haven't had that experience so they can better understand it. If the story teller fails in that goal it's on him. But people should never make the demand that a subject is too painful to ever be broachable.

 

[KRAKENDIE]

Lara Croft is a video game icon,

No she's not. If she is, she's an icon of very poor game design. Not just the tits, like, all of it.

and arguably the first considerable response to the objectification of women in video games.

Probably the biggest and most popular example of objectification too.

She is a symbol as much as a character.

I'm beginning to doubt you know what "symbol" means. And Lara's "character"? A rock had more personality.

And Mafia II was hardly anywhere near as publicized, nor defended.

I also don't recall Mafia having an extremely long running history of tits and ass. I also don't recall Mafia II being a gritty reboot of a shitty series.

She's an icon because it was one of the first times a player took control of a woman who at least was supposed to be the main character and not solely for the purpose of sexual object fixation. The irony of course being that she was, at almost every level, that.

She is a symbol. It's kind of ridiculous who you affirm she is the biggest and most popular example of something in video games but then deny that she could be a symbol of such... You seem to mistake my suggesting her mild relevance or importance is praise or validation.

Yeah, that too, actually.

 

[KRAKENDIE]

I disapprove of any complaints that are directed at removing options from a story tellers tool box. As much as that 'R' word article was right about rape being a touchy subject it doesn't mean it shouldn't be approached at all. There are games out there about Nazi's, in Company of Heros you can play as the German SS (though they're called panzergrandiers). Rape, Murder, Nazi's are all touchy subjects but we can't not talk about them because of the fact it will understandably hurt someones feelings. Stories are most valuable when they're told to relate experiences, ficticious or otherwise, to people that haven't had that experience so they can better understand it. If the story teller fails in that goal it's on him. But people should never make the demand that a subject is too painful to ever be broachable.

Nazis were a brutalizing enemy capable of defending themselves, as well as a political party with their own social and economic theory. How is that "touchy subject"(you know the one virtually anyone and everyone will bring up for a cartoonish metaphor at some time in their lives, along with the hundreds of games in which Nazis are enemies, allies, playable characters, and zombie tropes) the same thing as rape jokes and rape fantasy?

 

[Scorpid]

Do you believe a Jew that survived a concentration camp would look at this as hilarity?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJfSI4cKWLY

Also I'm not defending joking about rape, I could and there is a defense to be had there but that's not what I was pointing out. I was saying that most any story you tell can offend someone and using the threat of rape in a story is acceptable at face value in video games and not sexist. Its been used in drama since humans could tell a story to one another. Greeks regularly had their own gods engage in rape, so to have discussion about rape in video games should not be denied simply for the fact its an actual subject that hurts actual people being told through an interactive medium like video games.

HOW rape and the threat of rape is used by the story teller is not either always right and should be approached delicately if it is to be used, but thats the story tellers job. It's ours to simply let him use that subject if he feels its appropriate and judge it after we've actually heard the story (or played the game).

 

[dancinginfernal]

I have a better idea for the new Tomb Raider.

Lara Croft should get Breast Cancer.

Imagine the drama of a vulnerable Lara Croft, still persisting in her worldly adventures despite her illness.

It needs fleshing out, no pun intended, but I guarantee the gaming community would be shocked, stunned, and moved in the effort to make Lara's efforts more meaningful. I love Lara, but it's about time the industry had a big shock for a change.

 

[Deadyawn]

I don't really think that it's sexist. I mean, It's certainly not more sexist than all the other tomb raider games where she was basically a wooden post with a pair of baskeballs nailed to it.

Frankly I'm actually kind of interested in this, not because she has to "rise above adversity" or anything but just because it introduces some personalilty to the protagonist. I can't actually speak for the other games because I haven't played them but as I understand it, there isn't a great deal of conflict driven narrative or character progression and thats the kind of stuff I'd like to see a bit more of. I don't think that this is going to be some sort of brilliant writing masterpiece but every little bit helps and even a coherent plot is better than what you find in your average game. So from my perspective, this seems like a step in the right direction.

 

[Therumancer]

My basic attitude is this:

Lara Croft as a character was kind of ruined to begin with. To start out with she was a fun, devil-may-care explorer who was kind of playful and a bit flirty. As Yahtzee pointed out in her later outings they turned her into something resembling a female amazon who seemed to largely be out to one up guys for the heck of it, and came accross like she steamed more carpet than a Stanly floor cleaner.

Given how they have pretty much re-did the character several times already, creating a more vulnerable, human Lara doesn't really surprise me. Granted it's not the same character anymore, but then again they already basically rebooted the character's personality to begin with.

As far as her being brutalized and almost raped and such, to be honest I have no paticular issue with that in paticular, it fits with a gritty, realistic, game and that's pretty much in keeping with what you'd expect in a lot of these situations. Girls generally don't go up against guys directly for a reason. BUT up until this point Tomb Raider has not been about realism, it's been a work of high adventure, with a bigger than life protaganist that does things no real person could ever consider without batting an eye. Despite the radical change in personality, Lara has always consistantly been what amounts to a female super hero (of the physical training school), Batgirl meets Indiana Jones. When you suddenly make the character that vulnerable it's no longer the same character anymore, there is like nothing left of what made Lara Croft the character we know at this point. What's more in the spirit of things you can't really say "she was brutalized which is how she became that superbeing later" because really the whole situation is based on a degree of reality that just flies in the face of the capabilities displayed later. Not to mention that Lara isn't stupid (quite the opposite), and I find it hard to believe she'd wind up in that situation to begin with. The lady is loaded, and if she couldn't do the things you see in the games yet, you'd imagine she'd be travelling with a small army of mercenary body guards or whatever.

The content itself is fine, but it doesn't fit the franchise.

To be honest I half expect the game industry is trying to bait contreversy at the expense of their franchises right now. I thought the whole Hitman thing was cool in a "grindhouse" kind of way (and with some of the stuff going on in Hitman that kind of fits... the guy has attacked S&M clubs for crying out loud), this beginning for a female protaganist might have worked if it wasn't attached to this paticular franchise. If they wanted to do a game about a young, more vulnerable treasure hunter, and go for a more gritty approach, a NEW franchise probably would have been better rather than slapping "Tomb Raider" on it. This wasn't excusable the way the whole "Hitman" thing was.

 

[aestu]

Lara Croft as a character was kind of ruined to begin with. To start out with she was a fun, devil-may-care explorer who was kind of playful and a bit flirty. As Yahtzee pointed out in her later outings they turned her into something resembling a female amazon who seemed to largely be out to one up guys for the heck of it, and came accross like she steamed more carpet than a Stanly floor cleaner.

To begin with - before all this political nonsense was manufactured - Lara Croft was a pair of unrealistically proportioned tits for the 15-year-old white boys who owned Playstation 1s.

The game sucked, the character was vacuous, it was all about the tits, and for what it's worth it was actually extremely controversial at the time. Girl gamers were an extreme minority then, and anyone who actually wanted a decent action game played Mario 64.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

It's sexist, but only because it's not called Tomb Raidress

 

[Treblaine]

They would never do it with a male character though because apparently male characters don't have to go through a traumatic experience to be tough...

Bullshit.

Because nothing bad ever happens to male characters in origin stories. I don't see any of them having loved ones die or abuse or training from hell.

Oh, wait...

You're missing the point. They used a specifically harrowing act to display her traumatic experience, but it's one that is culturally specific to her gender (meaning the automatic thought when "rape" comes to mind is a woman being raped). There would not be a Nathan Drake attempted rape trailer. There would not be a that-big-asshole-from-GOW attempted rape trailer. The overwhelming majority of traumatic experiences in game characters are what you said, dead loved ones, abuse, training. Lara Croft is one of incredibly few central main characters who are female, and it just so happens she's the first to have an attempted rape be her traumatic event?

Well yeah. Most real life rape attempts are aimed at females. The unfortunate truth is that if someone looking like that got captured by a group of terrorists/drug smugglers/whatever kind of scum they are, somebody would make an attempt.
You said that the implication is that all women 'for some reason' have to go through a traumatic event to become badass, and men don't. What I'm saying is that all characters tend to go through something traumatic before becoming badass; the fact that said event happens to be attempted rape for Lara isn't being sexist, its a reflection of what realistically might happen to a woman. Note that it isn't unheard of for men to get raped in media as part of a harrowing backstory, where it would make sense for that to actually happen. Eg. fiction taking place in prison. Shawshank redemption springs to mind.

Also, she doesn't actually get raped. Some dude grabs her and then she manages to escape immediately. If anything, I'd say that's a better deal than the usual 'entire family murdered' or 'torturous training from hell' that male characters often get lumbered with...

Her appearance doesn't matter beyond the possible vulnerability, and the only provision for that would that she is alone or unarmed.

I never said that. Moonlight Butterfly said that.

But I can contest that the assertion that that is what "realistically might happen to a woman". That is where the sexism is, if anywhere. Realistically, it could happen to anyone, male or female. But across media, it happens almost exclusively to women, and the justification is never anything more than "she's a woman". Woman + Traumatic Experience = Rape, is the equation that isn't checking out for those claiming 'sexism'.

Prison and childhood sexual abuse are the only instances where men are raped in media. And the justification is never "well duh, he's a man". The justification for this attempted rape of Lara Croft is "well duh, she's a woman". You can add that 'in that situation/setting' disclaimer to curb that if you want, but then it gets back to why the countless other male treasure hunters, spelunkers, bounty hunters, and pirates in those same situations have never been raped or had rape attempted.

We have no need of getting into the territory of what is worse than what. Attempted rape is not as bad as having an entire family murdered, but that is not the question here.

"But across media, it happens almost exclusively to women"

Nope, most rape of main character depicted in media has been of men being raped (* for those not in prison or childhood):
-Pulp Fiction*
-Deliverance*
-Midnight Cowboy*
-American History X
-Mysterious Skin*
-Scum
-Shawshank Redemption

And it is heavily implied in many other films like Mad Max. You know why I think this is? I don't think this is for any particular interest in male-on-male sex, I think this is simply because most stories are ABOUT men, they take the principal roles. And considering rape is a profound thing to happen, male-rape is going to be depicted. So when there are female principal role, why should it be any different?

And the justification is never "well duh, he's a man" nor was the justification "Well duh, she's a woman" with Lara, BOTH of those are made up.

The justification is more like "Well duh, THE RAPIST is a man" that's the kind of evil that comes from men without the restraint of society, laws, and learned decency kept in check. Though it is not just men.

assertion that that is what "realistically might happen to a woman". That is where the sexism is

It is not sexist to address the reality that men will try to force themselves women, it is very true. It is in no way misogynist, this is misanthropic (against men) if anything as it shows men as animalistic rapists and women as just normal people who wouldn't want such abuse.

This says NOTHING about women, this says something ABOUT MEN!

Two premises here:
(1) there are a LOT of men out there capable of the horrific crime of rape, even in large groups conspiring together to commit rape
(2) Overall men have a preference for women, though some have prefer males, a large proportion will easily go for either

You can't have all these male protagonists in the media getting raped, but then say there should be must be a conspiracy by all writers so that female protagonists by must be always have such character armour that there is no even possibility nor intent that they might be raped, so there is no tension that they may or may not suffer a terrible fate.

This is denial about the nature of men who reject all rules of society and decency, when they become criminals and mercenaries with no accountability to any society or family, the kind of anti-social thugs Lara would face. If they are OK with killing an unarmed woman, why would they be worried about her consent? These are utterly amoral kind of people.

Think about this, Lara is a pretty well adjusted character from Britain, she's not a psycho, yet later she is regularly heavily armed. Why? Why would she chose to arm herself so often? Many Americans are raised to carry guns but not Brits, she'd need a personal reason. Self-defence from the most severe and WIDESPREAD threat as rape makes sense. She's not the type of character to have a chaperone, or not go into dangerous situation without tell people where she is going, she's independent and guns are a way of getting that independence OVER threats like rape.

 

[Therumancer]

Lara Croft as a character was kind of ruined to begin with. To start out with she was a fun, devil-may-care explorer who was kind of playful and a bit flirty. As Yahtzee pointed out in her later outings they turned her into something resembling a female amazon who seemed to largely be out to one up guys for the heck of it, and came accross like she steamed more carpet than a Stanly floor cleaner.

To begin with - before all this political nonsense was manufactured - Lara Croft was a pair of unrealistically proportioned tits for the 15-year-old white boys who owned Playstation 1s.

The game sucked, the character was vacuous, it was all about the tits, and for what it's worth it was actually extremely controversial at the time. Girl gamers were an extreme minority then, and anyone who actually wanted a decent action game played Mario 64.

Which is actually incorrect to the extreme, as I was there when this game came out. To be blunt we had female video game protaganists before Lara, and some were as bad as you say. The differance is that Lara starred in what was a quality game for the time, probably one of the best platformers ever for it's moment in time, known for it's rather intense difficulty curve and the precise timing needed to pull off some of the combinations. Half the point was that despite the apperance of it's protaganist, it was one of "those" games, and Lara also had a pretty detailed back story even if like most things it wasn't actually covered in the gameplay, a backstory which people demanded elaboration on for the later games. Comments on her apperance started largely AFTER the game was popular, and if you actually did follow it at the time you would know that it was kind of funny because Lara wasn't even the hottest video game character of the time period when you look at other artwork. Lara mostly gets attacked because it was a popular franchise and one that gets attention if you pick on it. I'll also say that Lara did do the cross gender thing, as I know plenty of women who played that game, and a popular counterpoint was that she was doing a schtick normally not associated with female video game characters (the adventuring treasure hunter typically being a guy) and what's more despite her "large tracts of land" she also wasn't trotting around in lingerie, but a basic shirt and shorts, being one of the big counter-examples by women at that time as well as a point of criticism.

Now granted, you might not like these points about the character, but it's interesting to note that even Yahtzee picked up on this and felt the need to comment about how much they changed the characters' personality and outlook. This version of Lara is another alteration of the character's basic personality, which also omits the superhuman competance and attached cocky attitude which went along with the sex appeal. Like it or not, what we're seeing in that video is NOT Lara Croft, whoever did that missed the entire point. The scene is fine, but not for that paticular character.

Indeed if anything I think a lot of the contreversy over this new video is because of how wrong you are. See, what makes the scene disturbing is that this is the one character you would expect that kind of thing not to happen to. The "message" some people, especially women I think, are taking from this (probably incorrectly) is that it's some kind of vengeance on Lara for being too powerful/competant of a female character, putting her in her place so to speak and showing that this can happen to anyone, which contridicts the entire fantasy this character embodies, which is to get away from that kind of harsh reality.

Of course in the end just by having this conversation we're encouraging the people who did this, because the whole idea was to get attention and drum up contreversy. In the end I am hoping people decide not to buy this game though so as not to encourage people screwing with established franchises and characters for the sake of attention. If they wanted a similar series to Tomb Raider, featuring a more vulnerable protaganist, they should have just designed a new game/series.