Poll: Lara and the Tomb raider controversy

[Treblaine]

But I do agree that the guy who talked about the game made it sound alittle sexist for sure but I really doubt the story writers and art and production crew feel the same way I think he just fucked up big time lol.

Well, you thrust a mic in a producer's face wanting an explanation on a scene he may not have actually discussed with the writers(s) or director, I wouldn't be surprised if he gave a very bad and insensitive explanation. See a producer can't be caught saying "hurr, I don't know" about his own game, that looks bad to investors.

snip

You know, everyone is taking Hjalmar Fryklund's advice and ignoring you.

 

[Fraggy1]

Yes and No

 

[Hjalmar Fryklund]

snip

You know, everyone is taking Hjalmar Fryklund's advice and ignoring you.

Minor addendum: It was either that or mocking him.

In any case it will have a positive effect.

CAPTCHA: die-hard

Well yes, that is certainly true of a certain someone.

 

[aestu]

Resorting to mockery and spamming of jpegs amounts to an admission of having lost the discussion.

 

[Hjalmar Fryklund]

Resorting to mockery and spamming of jpegs amounts to an admission of having lost the discussion.

I have explained to you before that they are not "jpegs", kompis.

Spoiler

Pro-tip: They are GIFs. And you know something else, kompis? If you right-click on them and choose "save image as" (or whatever the English version calls it) you can actually find out what type of file they are! Imagine that, you can actually find out what type of file they are by yourself! Who woulda' thunk, man?!

But hey! Don't let me stop you, kompis!

 

[Kahunaburger]

i dont understand. how make jpeg move.

Feminism says quite a bit about men, amongst them that they created all that is in opposition to the tenets of feminism.

OT: I'm with Yahtzee on this one.

 

[RadioactiveMicrobe]

See, this is why there is a lack of woman main characters. If she doesn't just act like a guy or be completely lifeless, people call out sexism.

 

[Hjalmar Fryklund]

i dont understand. how make jpeg move.

By trick and magic, my friend. By trick and magic. Observe:

I'll be tuning out for the night. Have a fun evening with our kompis aestu!

 

[Hazy992]

i dont understand. how make jpeg move.

Indeed. Also how is babby formed?

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Aug... I'm not usually one for this argument, but who the fuck cares? It's not like Edios is making a game where you the player get to gleefully beat/rape Laura and tell her to get her ass back in the kitchen.

Yeah it's a poor narrative device, cause it's very rare any storyteller can do those kinds of things to a female character that we haven't seen a million times, and it's going to probably come across life timey as fuck, but still what's the big deal?

Vito Scalleta from Mafia II had to fight off rapist in the prison shower of Mafia II. Granted he wins that encounter, but still the attempt was made to rape him too... I don't recall outcries from people bitching about a sterotypical portrayal of all prison-folk as homosexual rapist.

 

[anthony87]

Aug... I'm not usually one for this argument, but who the fuck cares? It's not like Edios is making a game where you the player get to gleefully beat/rape Laura and tell her to get her ass back in the kitchen.

Yeah it's a poor narrative device, cause it's very rare any storyteller can do those kinds of things to a female character that we haven't seen a million times, and it's going to probably come across life timey as fuck, but still what's the big deal?

Vito Scalleta from Mafia II had to fight off rapist in the prison shower of Mafia II. Granted he wins that encounter, but still the attempt was made to rape him too... I don't recall outcries from people bitching about a sterotypical portrayal of all prison-folk as homosexual rapist.

Hell, Lara wins the encounter too by shooting the guy in the fucking face and that's really what the scene is supposed to be about, the first time she has to take a human life. Something we see her do in all the other games with nary a flutter of her eyelids and we get to see and experience how exactly she deals with that.

But no, everyone decides to focus on the "rape"(Which it's fucking NOT) and get their panties bunched up so badly that it's cutting off blood circulation and preventing them from thinking straight.

 

[LetalisK]

snip

You know, everyone is taking Hjalmar Fryklund's advice and ignoring you.

Minor addendum: It was either that or mocking him.

In any case it will have a positive effect.

You know a thread has become hilariously absurd when I get called a feminist.

That's...that's just...

 

[KRAKENDIE]

They would never do it with a male character though because apparently male characters don't have to go through a traumatic experience to be tough...

Bullshit.

Because nothing bad ever happens to male characters in origin stories. I don't see any of them having loved ones die or abuse or training from hell.

Oh, wait...

You're missing the point. They used a specifically harrowing act to display her traumatic experience, but it's one that is culturally specific to her gender (meaning the automatic thought when "rape" comes to mind is a woman being raped). There would not be a Nathan Drake attempted rape trailer. There would not be a that-big-asshole-from-GOW attempted rape trailer. The overwhelming majority of traumatic experiences in game characters are what you said, dead loved ones, abuse, training. Lara Croft is one of incredibly few central main characters who are female, and it just so happens she's the first to have an attempted rape be her traumatic event?

 

[Proverbial Jon]

You know it would be far more unrealistic if a "bad guy's" first thought when he captures Lara is NOT a sexual one. She's a beautiful young girl in a vulnerable situation. He's hardly going to offer her a cup of tea. Remember: He's a bag guy.

What we need to understand is that this is a potentially real situation. As hard as it is to accept, real women in the real world do face dangers like this. OK, maybe not after going through Lara's particular trials but this is a video game, tragic events tend to happen in succession.

I say it's more sexist for people like us to demand that such themes are removed from our games. In doing so we're almost denying that it happens and refusing recognition of a real and terrible act.

 

[MrHide-Patten]

I would say a little, its less obvious sort of sexual pandering, but I cant read any of the developers intentions of 'protecting Lara' without being creeped out.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

They would never do it with a male character though because apparently male characters don't have to go through a traumatic experience to be tough...

Bullshit.

Because nothing bad ever happens to male characters in origin stories. I don't see any of them having loved ones die or abuse or training from hell.

Oh, wait...

You're missing the point. They used a specifically harrowing act to display her traumatic experience, but it's one that is culturally specific to her gender (meaning the automatic thought when "rape" comes to mind is a woman being raped). There would not be a Nathan Drake attempted rape trailer. There would not be a that-big-asshole-from-GOW attempted rape trailer. The overwhelming majority of traumatic experiences in game characters are what you said, dead loved ones, abuse, training. Lara Croft is one of incredibly few central main characters who are female, and it just so happens she's the first to have an attempted rape be her traumatic event?

Well yeah. Most real life rape attempts are aimed at females. The unfortunate truth is that if someone looking like that got captured by a group of terrorists/drug smugglers/whatever kind of scum they are, somebody would make an attempt.
You said that the implication is that all women 'for some reason' have to go through a traumatic event to become badass, and men don't. What I'm saying is that all characters tend to go through something traumatic before becoming badass; the fact that said event happens to be attempted rape for Lara isn't being sexist, its a reflection of what realistically might happen to a woman. Note that it isn't unheard of for men to get raped in media as part of a harrowing backstory, where it would make sense for that to actually happen. Eg. fiction taking place in prison. Shawshank redemption springs to mind.

Also, she doesn't actually get raped. Some dude grabs her and then she manages to escape immediately. If anything, I'd say that's a better deal than the usual 'entire family murdered' or 'torturous training from hell' that male characters often get lumbered with...

 

[KRAKENDIE]

They would never do it with a male character though because apparently male characters don't have to go through a traumatic experience to be tough...

Bullshit.

Because nothing bad ever happens to male characters in origin stories. I don't see any of them having loved ones die or abuse or training from hell.

Oh, wait...

You're missing the point. They used a specifically harrowing act to display her traumatic experience, but it's one that is culturally specific to her gender (meaning the automatic thought when "rape" comes to mind is a woman being raped). There would not be a Nathan Drake attempted rape trailer. There would not be a that-big-asshole-from-GOW attempted rape trailer. The overwhelming majority of traumatic experiences in game characters are what you said, dead loved ones, abuse, training. Lara Croft is one of incredibly few central main characters who are female, and it just so happens she's the first to have an attempted rape be her traumatic event?

Well yeah. Most real life rape attempts are aimed at females. The unfortunate truth is that if someone looking like that got captured by a group of terrorists/drug smugglers/whatever kind of scum they are, somebody would make an attempt.
You said that the implication is that all women 'for some reason' have to go through a traumatic event to become badass, and men don't. What I'm saying is that all characters tend to go through something traumatic before becoming badass; the fact that said event happens to be attempted rape for Lara isn't being sexist, its a reflection of what realistically might happen to a woman. Note that it isn't unheard of for men to get raped in media as part of a harrowing backstory, where it would make sense for that to actually happen. Eg. fiction taking place in prison. Shawshank redemption springs to mind.

Also, she doesn't actually get raped. Some dude grabs her and then she manages to escape immediately. If anything, I'd say that's a better deal than the usual 'entire family murdered' or 'torturous training from hell' that male characters often get lumbered with...

Her appearance doesn't matter beyond the possible vulnerability, and the only provision for that would that she is alone or unarmed.

I never said that. Moonlight Butterfly said that.

But I can contest that the assertion that that is what "realistically might happen to a woman". That is where the sexism is, if anywhere. Realistically, it could happen to anyone, male or female. But across media, it happens almost exclusively to women, and the justification is never anything more than "she's a woman". Woman + Traumatic Experience = Rape, is the equation that isn't checking out for those claiming 'sexism'.

Prison and childhood sexual abuse are the only instances where men are raped in media. And the justification is never "well duh, he's a man". The justification for this attempted rape of Lara Croft is "well duh, she's a woman". You can add that 'in that situation/setting' disclaimer to curb that if you want, but then it gets back to why the countless other male treasure hunters, spelunkers, bounty hunters, and pirates in those same situations have never been raped or had rape attempted.

We have no need of getting into the territory of what is worse than what. Attempted rape is not as bad as having an entire family murdered, but that is not the question here.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Aug... I'm not usually one for this argument, but who the fuck cares? It's not like Edios is making a game where you the player get to gleefully beat/rape Laura and tell her to get her ass back in the kitchen.

Yeah it's a poor narrative device, cause it's very rare any storyteller can do those kinds of things to a female character that we haven't seen a million times, and it's going to probably come across life timey as fuck, but still what's the big deal?

Vito Scalleta from Mafia II had to fight off rapist in the prison shower of Mafia II. Granted he wins that encounter, but still the attempt was made to rape him too... I don't recall outcries from people bitching about a sterotypical portrayal of all prison-folk as homosexual rapist.

Hell, Lara wins the encounter too by shooting the guy in the fucking face and that's really what the scene is supposed to be about, the first time she has to take a human life. Something we see her do in all the other games with nary a flutter of her eyelids and we get to see and experience how exactly she deals with that.

But no, everyone decides to focus on the "rape"(Which it's fucking NOT) and get their panties bunched up so badly that it's cutting off blood circulation and preventing them from thinking straight.

For real?

ITS THE EXACT SAME SHIT AS MAFIA II?!?! WHAT THE FUCK IS EVERYONE BITCHING ABOUT?

 

[someonehairy-ish]

But I can contest that the assertion that that is what "realistically might happen to a woman". That is where the sexism is, if anywhere. Realistically, it could happen to anyone, male or female.

Could. Not likely to.

What aren't you getting? Women in media are more likely to get raped because women in real life are more likely to get raped. You can say it happens because 'duh, she's a woman,' because rapists entire reason for doing it IN REAL LIFE is 'well duh, she's a woman.'

...

Why is this suddenly a problem because it shows up in a game? Woman and yes, on occasion, men, get raped in books and films. What's the point of raging about it occuring in a game? I don't understaaaaaaand.
Too tired. Going to bed. Will continue discussion tomorrow.

 

[anthony87]

Aug... I'm not usually one for this argument, but who the fuck cares? It's not like Edios is making a game where you the player get to gleefully beat/rape Laura and tell her to get her ass back in the kitchen.

Yeah it's a poor narrative device, cause it's very rare any storyteller can do those kinds of things to a female character that we haven't seen a million times, and it's going to probably come across life timey as fuck, but still what's the big deal?

Vito Scalleta from Mafia II had to fight off rapist in the prison shower of Mafia II. Granted he wins that encounter, but still the attempt was made to rape him too... I don't recall outcries from people bitching about a sterotypical portrayal of all prison-folk as homosexual rapist.

Hell, Lara wins the encounter too by shooting the guy in the fucking face and that's really what the scene is supposed to be about, the first time she has to take a human life. Something we see her do in all the other games with nary a flutter of her eyelids and we get to see and experience how exactly she deals with that.

But no, everyone decides to focus on the "rape"(Which it's fucking NOT) and get their panties bunched up so badly that it's cutting off blood circulation and preventing them from thinking straight.

For real?

ITS THE EXACT SAME SHIT AS MAFIA II?!?! WHAT THE FUCK IS EVERYONE BITCHING ABOUT?

Honestly? I've no clue. Here's the trailer in question in case you haven't seen it:


See that part at the 2:25 mark? Yeah, that's the big "rape" thing that's causing such a stir. With the way people are going on you'd think it was some sort of QTE with the instructions "Press X to thrust" or something.