Poll: Rushing and you

[TerranReaper]

snip

I feel as though I should be insulted. I'll just leave that facet alone.

And the Exploding Chess thing was a joke, it's nowhere near a perfect metaphor.

I think that I have a misplaced ideal of honor among theives in the Starcraft community. An idea that players shouldn't do cheap crap that works very rarely simply because it's cheap. Unfortunately, it's that exact thing, "misplaced". It's not the gentleman's game of intellect and cunning that I had expected. Such is life, I suppose.

It's simple, in all multiplayer games, it's all about people that use "dirty" tactics (Not to be confused with cheating/hacking/exploits) that will win. Of course, it's up to you on whether you should adapt to this and counter it. There are counters, and we can provide with ways. But you can't expect people in any kind of game to uphold some sort of "honor" or to cater to what you want. Although I would like to see your response towards other strategies in the higher levels of Starcraft, such as timing pushes.

 

[Nouw]

Rushing. I love Rushing. In Dawn Of War:Soul Storm, my Honor Guard and Commander was so strong, I didn't need to do anything but send my guys and I won.

But in the other case, rushing is no no for me. Bunkers, I salute you!

 

[snow]

I hate rushes, especially fucking zealot rushes. Those things are so damn hard to kill with lings, and somehow, the computer opponents and human opponents always seem to get like 8 of the fuckers.

Yeah, that's why I don't do melee. I always go for the custom games.

Scout early, if he's got 2 gates before a cybernetics core, he's gonna rush. build a queen and a couple of spine crawlers and place them near your mineral line, That will scare him off and leave him vulnerable because he now has to build up his base. Good luck and happy swarming!

Naw, I can usually wind against the Protoss in SC2. It's just SC1 where I have issues.

If you're able to, scout him out, and if he's going for that early zealot rush, see if you're able to tech to hydras before he enters your base. Depending on how well you're able to micromanage your units, you should be able to kill them easily, maybe even have a few zerglings out to act as bait for the zealots.

It doesn't hurt to have a sunken colony there for additional support. I'm not sure of the timings for sc1 as I am for sc2 but if I can remember correctly, this should work fairly well. If you're playing brood wars, defend as much as you can with this while you're researching lurkers, and set a hydra or 2 off to the side to mutate while the rest of your forces handle the zealots.

Or if you're good at figuring out what he's about to do, send in an early zergling rush to try to beat him to the punch. Even if you end up losing that battle, you'll know he'll be sending his forces out soon so prepare for it and build up your army. Perhaps putting some zlings off to the side if you're able to spare some, so if you know he'll be pushing out soon, you can run in there and cause some economic damage and force his units back home to deal with it.

Test that against some computers since they're pretty well known for rushing with a lot of early zealots and see if that works. Or do a bunch of trial and error runs with a friend of yours and fine tune that first defense.

Hm gonna ask a related question here - does anyone know how the hell you get through photon cannons massed at their ramp as zerg? Burrowed roaches don't work, the bloody overpowered things are detectors, banelings don't work cause you'd need 20 of them just to get 1 close enough to hit the damn things. Mass air doesn't work because they know that's the only way you can get past their cannons and build anti air. So any tactic that's not those three?

If your opponent is taking the time to spit out photon cannons, that means he is not taking the time to build an army. If you see a bunch of photon cannons in his base, fall back and expand. Build up your own army, and keep him from expanding himself. Tie him down to one base and he'll run dry trying to push himself out of his shell.

Mostly when protoss players fall back to this tactic, they may be attempting to go void rays. So if you're able to, get an Overseer to create one of those imitation units. (forget what they're called) to scout him out. If he has stargates, you now know to get some Corruptors and hydras out. Don't forget to use the corruption on him because it'll make bringing his fleet of Void Rays down easy. Maybe even use an infestor or 2 to fungal growth them to keep them in place.

Void Rays cost a lot of money. So if you take them out, he'll need to expand or else he'll run dry. Scout around and take out any expansions as soon as you see them. If he's going to fortify his base, then there's no reason for you to go in there. Just be ready for when he comes out and you should be fine. Keep expanding, and use your units perks to your advantage. Don't forget to spread creep either, so that way no matter which way he goes, your army can be there within seconds!

Don't take this the wrong way, I am totally not a good player at RTS games competively either, my actions per second (or whatever the unit of measurement is) is pitiful. It hardly matters what my strategy is because the other guy is a bind king or prince or magistrate or ... I don't care, I just suck at whipping together a base in a few seconds and rolling out units to defend, rush, or gather. So you know what I realized and I get the impression from the tid bits I pulled out of your Original Post?

You probably would have more fun sticking to either single player RTS or alternatively: go play Turn Based Strategy single or multiplayer. Then you really will be playing "Exploding Chess", since RTS is only comparable to chess if both chess players are taking their turns at the exact same time trying to move pieces around the board quicker than the other guy - what are you willing to bet chess games like that end up with one of the players going "Screw this!" and rage quiting as he slaps the board and pieces off the table after you both basicly push crap across the squares in one big two handed shove of "pwnage"?

In real time and real life, its just as important to quick as it is to be smart, strong, durable, accurate, efficient and profitable but for the rest of us, turn based is probably where its at. Just sayin', the Quick and the Dead and stuff.

I feel as though I should be insulted. I'll just leave that facet alone.

And the Exploding Chess thing was a joke, it's nowhere near a perfect metaphor.

I think that I have a misplaced ideal of honor among theives in the Starcraft community. An idea that players shouldn't do cheap crap that works very rarely simply because it's cheap. Unfortunately, it's that exact thing, "misplaced". It's not the gentleman's game of intellect and cunning that I had expected. Such is life, I suppose.

Again, it's talk like this that makes it so no one will help you. It is indeed a gentleman's game of intellect and cunning. It seems by what you said in previous posts that others are out-smarting you with tactics that are easy to defend yourself against. If it's a straight up fight you want, prepare yourself accordingly so you're able to force that player into that fair fight.

I've said this all before, but you fail to listen. So in doing so, you fail to receive any help with your problems. Calling the entirety of the SC2 community thieves just because they do things that you don't know how to protect yourself against, isn't going to help you solve the issue at all.

You may call us thieves, but in return I hope you accept that I should be allowed to call you ignorant. I'd be more than willing to help, but you need to be willing to stop with the complaints and most importantly, stop with the insults, and start listening.

 

[Extra-Ordinary]

I normally stay at my base and fortify. And then attack my enemies in one giant wave.

 

[snow]

I normally stay at my base and fortify. And then attack my enemies in one giant wave.

If you play Protoss, you should pair up and do practice 1v1's against Sapient Pearwood, he was just saying earlier that he has trouble against players that fortify. It would be good practice for the both of you!

 

[Redlin5_v1legacy]

I normally stay at my base and fortify. And then attack my enemies in one giant wave.

Precisely my strategy with one added element. Multiple small but powerful waves while I build up the main wave.

 

[Dr. Gorgenflex]

If they cant prepare for a rush properly you will beat them anyways in late game.

 

[snow]

I don't see it as a barbaric tactic, I see it as an extremely effective but more expensive scouting technique. If it works then great, I win but if it doesn't I get to see what you're building and set you back in resources so much you can't afford to just change strategy on the spot. Even in the event of a total failure I see in your base and can counter what I think you'll build based on what I see.

Really? I sorta see it akin to a blitz in football. It's more like a "Tackle the fucker before he gets a pass off or you're screwed" idea. I think it's smart as a last ditch effort. It's also psychological, as in "Holy crap that's a big army!!!" Just look at history- the man who can make his opponent believe the man is screwed usually wins. Thermopayle doesn't count, because those guys were just military badasses.

One technique I always love is building a large sized army and hiding them off to the side. then, I send half in to get obliterated. Enemy thinks "Hah, I destroyed his rush!" Then goes to obliterate what little base I have. Too bad for him I spent a while building up my base. He gets attacked there, I send the rest of the army to wipe out his base when the soldiers are away (Stole this from history. Most of my tactics are just modified versions of Alexander and whatnot. Guy was a genius.) and then pincer what's left into obliteration. I always wondered though, does that actually count as a rush or just a clever feint?

I wouldn't call it a rush exactly, but if you can make the other player think that's all you had, then I would say that is pretty clever. I once attacked with a small wave of zealots and stalkers just to see what my opponent had. This caused him to counter once I fell back with the little of what I had left with that army, I didn't have that big of an army sitting around, but once I saw he was coming into my base, I sent a warp prism over to a little unprotected section just outside of his view and warped in some dark templar.

I lost all my main forces, but luckily was able to pop up 2 more DT in my own base which destroyed the rest of his army while the other 6 were ripping him apart from the inside. I watched the replay afterwords, and watched it from his PoV, he watch looking at his army, controlling it and all that fun stuff. Then he got the ping on the minimap telling him his base was under attack. He looked at his nexus as it started to catch on fire and heard the DT sounds... Froze for a second, then looked back at the battle in my base and noticed that he only had a zealot and a stalker left, with a few more swipes from another Dark Templar.

 

[drzoidbergmd]

It's an effective strategy, but I find it less rewarding than using a more structured and calculated attack.

 

[Nieroshai]

Remember that scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark when the swordsman challenges Indiana to a duel? In war, it's winning that counts as opposed to honor unless agreed to otherwise, and Indy shot the guy instead of stopping to brawl. Also, if there are ways around rushing, and rushing is so prevalent, then focus with a buddy on learning anti-rushing tactics. I had to, and the game became fun again.

EDIT: Most players learn rushing in Campaign because it shortens otherwise difficult AI battles, and may consider it to be just part of the game by intent. I did when I played Command and Conquer: Red Alert.

 

[The Stonker]

Alot of people actually put all their eggs in the same basket when they rush so if you hate rushing then have a counter attack ready and don't turtle for hells sake don't turtle or your going to lose.

But I know how to counter rush and if you don't know how to counter rush in the minor leagues then your going to be in a shitstorm in the silver,gold,platinum etc etc.

 

[Dfskelleton]

That's the reason I don't play RTS games. I played Halo Wars online ONCE, and I was instantly rushed into and slaughtered. "No more Halo Wars for me!" I said calmly, putting the game in its case and putting it on my shelf, never to be played again.
Maybe Halo Wars just sucks, but it still ruined RTS games for me completely.

 

[PsionicAtlas]

I'm curious about everyone's thought on the subject, so I'm going to copy-paste something I wrote for somewhere else. I know most of you play RTSes, but bear with me in case some don't.

EDIT: Everyone seems to be missing my point, so let me repaste my comment from later on here.
"I *know* that it's a strategy. I'm not whining because I think it's OP, going "all in" is a fairly stupid move. I'm not trying to shift the zeitgeist and start an anti-rushing revolution like some kind of Starcraft Che Guevara in a feeble attempt to change the game. I'm just making an observation about the dissonance between what RTSes claim to be and what they actually are."

Anyways, back to the main program.
I hate rushing. It's true.

For those of you who don't play Real Time Strategy (RTS) games, a "rush" is when you dump every resource into making a group of your most basic offensive unit and "rush" it into the opponent's base. The idea is to get the units in before he has a chance to build something to repel them. This applies in most RTSes, but Starcraft made it famous with the Zerg rush, since the Zerg have quick-building units called zerglings that are basically paper with claws. The lings could be run into the enemy base and cause havoc if they weren't repelled. Nowadays I think that Protoss is more infamous for it with the Zealot rush.

Before someone starts calling "noob" on me, yes, I know that I suck at Starcraft. I am simply horrible. Yes, I know that it's relatively easy to repel a rush if you work quickly and skillfully. That's not what I'm talking about.

I've always viewed RTSes as complex thought games in disguise, or as I like to call it, "Exploding Chess". A proper player needs to have an extraordinary sense of awareness and must be able to use everything at his disposal to defeat his enemy. It's really an elegant game, if you look past the gore.

This elegance is what drives me mad about rushing. It's such a barbaric tactic, one that leaves no room for alteration if the plan goes wrong. A proper player would never put every chip into a single hand unless he was positive that he would win, something that a rusher never knows. In short, it's a stupid tactic.

However, that's not the biggest problem. I view it as if a chess player were to simply attack with every single non-pawn he had, regardless of the consequences, in the hope that he might win. Yes, it might occasionally work, but it usually won't and you're a complete dick for even trying. The name of the game is strategy, you're supposed to make a clever, longer-term plan to trick your opponent into letting you win, not simply taking everything you have and throwing it at them. In fact, that is the reason why I like Starcraft: unlike every other RTS, where most of the battles are simply building up the most offensive units and throwing them at each other, SC requires a lot of thought and manipulation. It's the smart man's RTS.

And yet, these rushers defile it, and it drives me mad. I don't care if it's a "legitimate tactic", or if it's "avoidable", it's still utter crap. For all you "normal gamers" who stick to the MW2-alikes, think of rushers as the guy who sprints around knifing everyone. Yes, it works and you could stop him, but he's still a dick for trying.

It's funny. I actually enjoy losing, if I fall victim to a clever plan. For example, I was playing in the beta oh so long ago against a Protoss player. Of course, I was worse at SC then than I am now, an amazing feat of failure, and didn"t keep a unit to watch my base entrance. The player was able to sneak a Gateway (Protoss unit-producing building) into the front of my base and started popping out Zealots, completely unknown to me. By the time I had blocked off my ramp, it was already too late. I got cocky and got screwed. I applauded the man on this cleverness, said "gg", then surrendered. (Note: This wasn't a rush tactic, he had a base building back home).

This is, of course, different than the guy who simply built three gateways and popped out a ton of zealots, destroyed one of my supply depots blocking the ramp (I play Terran, obviously) and overwhelmed my Marines that I had made since I had sunk money into building a factory instead of a thousand marines. I just told that guy to learn how to play a real game and quit.

In short, rushers, screw you.

Actually I'm quite a newb myself (notice newb, not noob) and I find rushes not that bad once I got thinking. Sure I got angry at first, but then I figured out how to beat it. One of my best moments is in a 2v2 last week, me being protoss, my friend being terran and the two enemies both being zerg. We got a roach blitzkrieg and barely held it off, then we attacked right back after, and pretty much owned the rest of the game.

On another note not for rushes, want a good tip that REALLY helped me improve in SC2? Fight an insane computer as the race you use, not to win though. SC2 has such an amazing end game overview that is so helpful to learn from. Once the game is over (probably in loss as it was for me T.T) look at the computers build order and see how to improve from that. It gives you a something good to start with, and from there just take it where you want to

 

[snow]

That's the reason I don't play RTS games. I played Halo Wars online ONCE, and I was instantly rushed into and slaughtered. "No more Halo Wars for me!" I said calmly, putting the game in its case and putting it on my shelf, never to be played again.
Maybe Halo Wars just sucks, but it still ruined RTS games for me completely.

I don't think it ruined RTS games as much as I believe that maybe you're just not meant to play them? They aren't like FPS games where you can pick up any controller or keyboard and know how to play almost instantly.

They take some getting used too and some trial and error before you start understanding how the game works and how to respond to certain situations. To put the game up on the shelf after one loss just means that you're not willing to adapt to the gameplay.

Not an insult of course, not all games are for everyone, but in almost every single situation I can come up with right now, I don't see how it can be the games fault for ruining anything. Unless of course it melted your computer, but even then I have to ask... When was the last time you cleaned it? XD

 

[Klopy]

I dislike rushing, but i feel it is an alright tactic. Think about it. Its a game where you want to win. Most people don't go into a match thinking that they want to put their best against the other person's best. Most people go into matches thinking that they will find the enemy's weakness as quickly as possible and exploit it to win. See lots of air units? I make Anti air and ruin his force. Lots of ground units? Get the splash and air-to-ground units going. If someone goes into a match and knows that he or she is already ready for a fight with their infantry, why wait for the enemy? Its nice to give them a chance, but its almost like fighting a huge war and taking out the enemy's army, only to let them cower and lick their wounds to fight back.

The game, from the beginning to the end, is a tug of war. If you don't get a good grip at the beginning, the enemy will just pull the rope out of your hands and knock you off balance before you know it.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

"It's" How RTS games work, build the best unit, spam towards enemy.

That doesn't work in SC2. Even late game big badass units have something that counters them.

Oh please you can do it in EVERY RTS, and for that to be turn you will have to have built plenty of units to count the guy who builds 100 of something else.

Not really every RTS. Unit caps and proper balance generally ensure that simple weight in numbers are insufficient. Hell, to use the Starcraft scenario you'll find that the most fearsome units in the game (battlecruisers, carriers) are shockingly vulnerable to increadibly cheap units. In games like Dawn of War 2 simple weight in numbers is hardly an edge. An end game marine army MIGHT have a dozen total infantry and a vehicle and yet these 5 or 6 discreet units can readily mop the floor with an equally expensive Tyranid army with 80 varied units across a dozen discreet units. Indeed, simple weight in numbers means so little that the a Techmarine (a hero that focuses entirely on ranged combat and defense) properly equipped and played can readily best a squad of fully upgraded tactical marines.

The rush exists certainly but it is often readily defeated. Tank Spam in Command and Conquer for example is fearsome for most any defense. In spite of this, cheap, even expendible infantry can easily crush such a tactic for a fraction of the cost. The entire reason the rush is such a dangerous card to play is that in a properly balanced game, your every tactic has a counter. Rushing a dedicated ranged army in Dawn of War 2 means a player who has invested in rapid assault units can easily brush aside your attempts. Rushing a melee army allows a player the freedom to claim a garrisoned building allowing them to fire with impunity for a time.

Besides, you'll find that there are basically just the two kinds of rush. The first is a rush consisting almost entirely of a certain kind of unit. This unit gambles that your enemy will not have the proper response on hand. The other sort is a mixed rush and such a tactic can readily be bested by a mix on the defense or (in some cases) simply spamming a counter of their own.

 

[Malkavian]

I don't see it as a barbaric tactic, I see it as an extremely effective but more expensive scouting technique. If it works then great, I win but if it doesn't I get to see what you're building and set you back in resources so much you can't afford to just change strategy on the spot. Even in the event of a total failure I see in your base and can counter what I think you'll build based on what I see.

When I say "rush" I don't mean "send in ten zerglings", it's more like the people who build three miners and dump the entirety of the rest of their resources into barracks, which then fly to the entrance of your base to start pumping out marines. Or the guy who builds only a couple miners and a forge, then puts as many photon cannons in front of you as possible (no units at all). Gimmicky crap like that.

I rarely see these used in Starcraft II, mainly because they are not as viable as you'd think. Both the marine/barrack drop and Cannon Rush are fairly easy to repel, and boy does it hurt the opponent when he has sunk all his resources into these strategies. I only experienced a cannon rush once while playing the beta, and only 2 or so 6pools. And yes, they are extremely cheesy strategies, and doesn't make for fun games. They are strategies that you can read off a guide, and then do pretty easily. It's not so much about skill. Just scout your opponent to make sure he doesn't pull it off, and you can go to town and punish him for being such a cheesy player. They are one-trick ponys, and doesn't require that much from you to repel - indeed, all you have to do is what you should be doing anyways - scout and make sure you always have something to defend yourself with.

However, rushing in general is not cheesy, IMO. The trick is to rush AND still build up your forces and economy. That actually takes skill, since it forces you to multitask and think several steps ahead. As someone else mentioned, it is a way of scouting. So my opponent is walling off his base? Well, then, while keeping the pressure up after my initial rush, I'd better start teching for air, or Warpgate with Warp Prism. Has he teched early for a Starport? Well then, I'd getter get som ranged units and Air counters.

I'm not an expert player by any means, but a huge part of Starcraft(can't speak so much for other RTS'es, since I have never played them multiplayer except for the odd game with friends) is harasment and pressure. That pressure starts with an early attack. I see nothing wrong or cheesy about that. Silently turtling in your base while building your forces aren't very tactical or strategic either - denying your opponent ressources or the like is. At least the way I see it.

You just have to learn how to multitask properly, and get more practice with the game. When I started out in the beta I was fortifying my base defences and building a huge army before having a go at my opponent. As I started harrassing my opponjents I not only found that I fared better, but also that it was much more fun and fastpaced.

In summary: Yes, a game that lasts 3 minutes because someone was using cheesy strategies is not a good game. But neither is a game where an opponent holds back his attack, when it is clearly unstrategic to attack a defenceless player... That is equally boring. It's supposed to be fun, but it's also supposed to be about winning - and there's no sense in holding back when you could be attacking.